Well, I said Distress in the off case I find a creature that costs more than 3 mana... that and i'm doing nothing with my second mana open on turn two, so I figure might as well discard what I want instead of limiting myself with duress...
(Also... it's just because I never even thought of Inquisition...that And I also want the ability to hit Teferi and other creatures like him)
I'm trying to work on a G/B version of this deck, I like the idea of running blue for digging, but haven't been able to incorporate it into my deck. and I don't like the idea of running red, mainly because all of red's sweepers only deal 2 damage, and i've consistently been hittin' 3+ toughness creatures...
I Also noticed an Infinite loop with Melira and two Murderous Redcaps, would it be feasible to run Cream of the Crop to exploit this? Everytime they enter the battlefield, we get to look at the top two cards, and put one on bottom, pretty much do this to search out the rest of your combo if you're having trouble finding those pieces, like the Swarm or Station.
I'd like to get some thoughts from others as well.
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@ Plaguefather, I find that my main issue with Zoo or RDW isn't creatures, it's removal. This deck can pull out a win from 1 life, but having Melira, Sylvok Outcast shot down constantly tends to get really annoying. Thus, Duress is better.
Also, no, you cannot get away with running Distress. Say you're on the draw and your only discard spell is Distress. You play Melira on Turn 2. They Mana Leak her. If you had Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek instead, you could have taken the Mana Leak out of their hand on Turn 1. If you play Distress instead of Melira on Turn 2...aren't you supposed to be playing an aggro-combo deck?
@ Plaguefather, I find that my main issue with Zoo or RDW isn't creatures, it's removal. This deck can pull out a win from 1 life, but having Melira, Sylvok Outcast shot down constantly tends to get really annoying. Thus, Duress is better.
Also, no, you cannot get away with running Distress. Say you're on the draw and your only discard spell is Distress. You play Melira on Turn 2. They Mana Leak her. If you had Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek instead, you could have taken the Mana Leak out of their hand on Turn 1. If you play Distress instead of Melira on Turn 2...aren't you supposed to be playing an aggro-combo deck?
Who said I wasn't running Thoughtseize? I'm saying instead of Duress, Distress. Maybe I'm overthinking it...
Also, has anyone considered Cream of the Crop for Combo Digging, we have an infinite combo between Melira and 2 Redcaps, just keep the redcaps damaging each other and re-entering the battlefield to essentially put one of two cards on top and on bottom of your library...and Stop when you get the piece you want. (Like Blasting Station)
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If you're going to run Chord of Calling, I'd give some thought to running Khalni Garden as a sort of acceleration. Viscera Seer is by far the best sac outlet, and Chord is the best way to find him.
IMO, murderous redcap is not totally necessary. If you have infinite life, about the only combo decks that can win at that point are mill decks, poison decks, or Splinter Twin, and you can respond to the Splinter Twin attack with another infinite set of life.
If you have infinite sacrifices with viscera seer, you only have to run 1 of your infinite kill, be it Redcap or something else.
I'd definitely run x1 Safehold Elite, to protect against Cranial effects. Alternatively, you could throw a Finks into the SB and run W for Glittering Wish. Dunno if I'd run x1 Essence Warden, as I don't like 4 card combos.
x1 Qasali Pridemage deserves to be MD or SB.
I keep looking for ways for this deck to go off on turn 3 with a tutor, but it looks like you have to either have the nut hand with all 3 pieces, or a birds. I want turn 3 though.
@ Plaguefather: What an amazing card Cream of the Crop is for this deck. I didnt play for a bit before alara and I dont think I have ever seen that before. I might have to do some testing with that at some point. Also, I would run Rise // Fall before Distress.
I like IoK a lot and used it in standard. Thoughtseize was my replacement and I like Duress for keeping removal and counter magic of my combo. Although I have been thinking IoK would help me out a lot, and have been considering running a suite of 3x IoK, 2x Thoughtseize and 2x Duress as my discard suite lately. Thoughtseize has just been too costly against some decks when you take fetch and shocklands into account.
@ GenericKen: pretty solid advice, and probably do-able with a singleton Temple Garden.
EDIT: the more and more I think about it, the more Surgical Extraction feels like a necessity in the sideboard. It deals with Punishing Fire, which can be a real problem for this deck. It also shuts down damn near every combo deck in the format. Running maindeck hand disruption makes it easy to play in the deck as well.
Rise//Fall... that leaves a little too much to chance, random discard? I'd rather go with certainty than randomness.
Glad to hear about Cream of the crop, let us know how it works for you, if it works I may have to flesh out my playset (and finally replace Call to nature/ Lead the Stampede) MY version very much likes Crop, using the inifinite redcap/etb effects. Mainly it's because I have such a problem searching out the Swarm or Blasting Station...
I agree with Surgical Extraction, also, how would Relic of Progenitus work against Punishing Fire? is it also as good? I think it would be fine since it's reusable unless it's destroyed... I'd say upon a resolving punishing fire (or one you discarded while they were tapped out,) Tap Relic and exile the thing, muwahaha! (As you can tell, Grove/Punishing Fire are the two cards I hate the most...right now)
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You know what certainty is? Wrench Mind. The certainty that they will discard the two worst cards in their hand. If they know what they're doing, they will discard creatures, lands, anything but removal. At least Rise/Fall doesn't make them choose what the worst cards in their hand are. It's why Hymn to Tourach is so good.
I feel like Surgical Extraction will do everything Relic would do, and then some. Relic wont strip combo players of their win con the way surgical extraction will.
Splashing white for saffi and revilark have really helped the heavy removal match ups in my few matches I have tested. It also allows for another infinite combo while providing that protection.
Has anyone tested River Kelpie as a one or two of for mid-late game?
Edit: Also do people realize with Cord of Calling with the combo in play allows you to fetch a creature with infinite mana cost? Would playing a singleton of Blightsteel Colossus, a big green meanie (Woodfall Primus or Regal Force), or an Eldrazi.
Also with the poor Jund match up, couldn't we just sideboard in Living End? I am already running BBE in my 60.
Is it a Jund List better than a naya Version for this deck?
And in Jund is not a good idea to run BBE and Blightning as a choice? or 2nd plan?
I honestly think a deck that CAN abuse the combo, but is still an effective deck without is the better way to build this deck. I think a Jund version would be very strong.
I like this list, although I fear it still has the same weakness vs Elf decks that I have been experiencing with my build. I would probably stick in a singleton Steam Vents and Breeding Pool along with a couple fetch lands to grab what you need.
So, I've really been liking the ideas/interactions in this deck. I've been playing around with a purely theoretical deck list so I can start shaping up a list that suits my play style. I know it's probably a bad idea but the cards that I've found to make a solid sounding deck on paper are in 4 colors but I think it is entirely possible since I'm basically just splashing B and only need a single W for any of my spells that need it. Anyways, here is what I'm thinking of starting with:
It seems pretty capable of pulling everything it needs together and I was thinking that more of a "one big turn" win was a better idea for the combo. The only thing I feel like I'm missing is Duress and I should probably find a spot for a card like Autumn's Viel, Silence, or Grand Abolisher.
So that's what I'm looking at starting with, any suggestions or changes will be gladly welcomed. I will start testing later this week hopefully and get back any information I find.
Has anyone tested River Kelpie as a one or two of for mid-late game?
Edit: Also do people realize with Cord of Calling with the combo in play allows you to fetch a creature with infinite mana cost? Would playing a singleton of Blightsteel Colossus, a big green meanie (Woodfall Primus or Regal Force), or an Eldrazi.
Also with the poor Jund match up, couldn't we just sideboard in Living End? I am already running BBE in my 60.
How does it give you an infinite search. You have to tap the creatures as part of the cc to the spell. You can't tap it sac it, tap it again. Does not work.
Hi compuchas, you have a decent start there. I'm really not certain about Fauna Shaman being a 1-of, though; with Shaman, you either go big or go home. This is the sort of girl you want to see either a lot of the time or you find doesn't really belong in the deck, as she's a tutor that's only a 2/2. I think this is the type of deck where you go big with Fauna Shaman, though; try putting in 3 or 4 of her.
I can't see why you'd shoehorn in the Project X combo without actually gaining anything from it. To actually make Project X have a point, I recommend an Essence Warden so you can gain infinite life in yet another way.
How does it give you an infinite search. You have to tap the creatures as part of the cc to the spell. You can't tap it sac it, tap it again. Does not work.
Edit: I just realized it does not work because of the convoke wording. Glancing and reading are two wildly different things.
Has anyone thought of running Deathcloud or Eldrazi Monument? Monument seems really good for this deck. Protects Melira, gives a sac outlet once a turn, and makes everyone flying.
Hi compuchas, you have a decent start there. I'm really not certain about Fauna Shaman being a 1-of, though; with Shaman, you either go big or go home. This is the sort of girl you want to see either a lot of the time or you find doesn't really belong in the deck, as she's a tutor that's only a 2/2. I think this is the type of deck where you go big with Fauna Shaman, though; try putting in 3 or 4 of her.
I can't see why you'd shoehorn in the Project X combo without actually gaining anything from it. To actually make Project X have a point, I recommend an Essence Warden so you can gain infinite life in yet another way.
First thanks for the feedback and second I guess I can explain some of my card choices and decisions.
Essence warden was in original build but was always underwhelming however the crypt champion works like a mini reveillark and will usually come and grab whatever peice of the combo was missing so for the time being he has stayed.
With the tutors I figured tool box creatures would be good and teeg is really just main decked for that purpose.
The Fauna shaman was really more of a test to see what were the appropriate tutor effects and i'm not sold she is the one, however, there are times that being able to pitch combo peice(s) and get reveillark or crypt champion to reanimate them is money.
In the end I think I like the seemingly randomness of the different cards doing the same thing as it keeps my opponents thus far from being able to identify how to stop the deck as easily. I know I have heard some people complaining about spot removal and disruption being issues both of which have not been thus far in testing for me which could be luck or just could be there are too many different ways to get the combo off.
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(Also... it's just because I never even thought of Inquisition...that And I also want the ability to hit Teferi and other creatures like him)
I'm trying to work on a G/B version of this deck, I like the idea of running blue for digging, but haven't been able to incorporate it into my deck. and I don't like the idea of running red, mainly because all of red's sweepers only deal 2 damage, and i've consistently been hittin' 3+ toughness creatures...
I Also noticed an Infinite loop with Melira and two Murderous Redcaps, would it be feasible to run Cream of the Crop to exploit this? Everytime they enter the battlefield, we get to look at the top two cards, and put one on bottom, pretty much do this to search out the rest of your combo if you're having trouble finding those pieces, like the Swarm or Station.
I'd like to get some thoughts from others as well.
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@ Plaguefather, I find that my main issue with Zoo or RDW isn't creatures, it's removal. This deck can pull out a win from 1 life, but having Melira, Sylvok Outcast shot down constantly tends to get really annoying. Thus, Duress is better.
Also, no, you cannot get away with running Distress. Say you're on the draw and your only discard spell is Distress. You play Melira on Turn 2. They Mana Leak her. If you had Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek instead, you could have taken the Mana Leak out of their hand on Turn 1. If you play Distress instead of Melira on Turn 2...aren't you supposed to be playing an aggro-combo deck?
Who said I wasn't running Thoughtseize? I'm saying instead of Duress, Distress. Maybe I'm overthinking it...
Also, has anyone considered Cream of the Crop for Combo Digging, we have an infinite combo between Melira and 2 Redcaps, just keep the redcaps damaging each other and re-entering the battlefield to essentially put one of two cards on top and on bottom of your library...and Stop when you get the piece you want. (Like Blasting Station)
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IMO, murderous redcap is not totally necessary. If you have infinite life, about the only combo decks that can win at that point are mill decks, poison decks, or Splinter Twin, and you can respond to the Splinter Twin attack with another infinite set of life.
If you have infinite sacrifices with viscera seer, you only have to run 1 of your infinite kill, be it Redcap or something else.
I'd definitely run x1 Safehold Elite, to protect against Cranial effects. Alternatively, you could throw a Finks into the SB and run W for Glittering Wish. Dunno if I'd run x1 Essence Warden, as I don't like 4 card combos.
x1 Qasali Pridemage deserves to be MD or SB.
I keep looking for ways for this deck to go off on turn 3 with a tutor, but it looks like you have to either have the nut hand with all 3 pieces, or a birds. I want turn 3 though.
Modern SplinterTwin
I like IoK a lot and used it in standard. Thoughtseize was my replacement and I like Duress for keeping removal and counter magic of my combo. Although I have been thinking IoK would help me out a lot, and have been considering running a suite of 3x IoK, 2x Thoughtseize and 2x Duress as my discard suite lately. Thoughtseize has just been too costly against some decks when you take fetch and shocklands into account.
@ GenericKen: pretty solid advice, and probably do-able with a singleton Temple Garden.
EDIT: the more and more I think about it, the more Surgical Extraction feels like a necessity in the sideboard. It deals with Punishing Fire, which can be a real problem for this deck. It also shuts down damn near every combo deck in the format. Running maindeck hand disruption makes it easy to play in the deck as well.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Glad to hear about Cream of the crop, let us know how it works for you, if it works I may have to flesh out my playset (and finally replace Call to nature/ Lead the Stampede) MY version very much likes Crop, using the inifinite redcap/etb effects. Mainly it's because I have such a problem searching out the Swarm or Blasting Station...
I agree with Surgical Extraction, also, how would Relic of Progenitus work against Punishing Fire? is it also as good? I think it would be fine since it's reusable unless it's destroyed... I'd say upon a resolving punishing fire (or one you discarded while they were tapped out,) Tap Relic and exile the thing, muwahaha! (As you can tell, Grove/Punishing Fire are the two cards I hate the most...right now)
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Relic of Progenitus should do a good job against Punishing Fire, too.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
4x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Murderous Redcap
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Greater Gargadon
4x Glen Elendra Archmage
Artifacts (4)
4x Blasting Station
Spells (12)
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Reflecting Pool
4x Stomping Ground
2x Cascade Bluffs
2x Flooded Grove
2x Fire-Lit Thicket
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Mountain
4x Nature's Claim
4x Swerve
4x Rewind
3x Mana Leak
Standard:
UB Biomancer Beatdown
UG Elven Stompy
RWGu Slivers
Modern:
Naya Sliver Zoo
Jund Kolonian Ooze Control
EDH:
Rith, the Awakener Populate
Slivers (rotating general)
Hana, Ship's Navigator- Pillow Fort
Edit: Also do people realize with Cord of Calling with the combo in play allows you to fetch a creature with infinite mana cost? Would playing a singleton of Blightsteel Colossus, a big green meanie (Woodfall Primus or Regal Force), or an Eldrazi.
Also with the poor Jund match up, couldn't we just sideboard in Living End? I am already running BBE in my 60.
And in Jund is not a good idea to run BBE and Blightning as a choice? or 2nd plan?
I honestly think a deck that CAN abuse the combo, but is still an effective deck without is the better way to build this deck. I think a Jund version would be very strong.
I like this list, although I fear it still has the same weakness vs Elf decks that I have been experiencing with my build. I would probably stick in a singleton Steam Vents and Breeding Pool along with a couple fetch lands to grab what you need.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Murderous Redcap
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Safehold Elite
Spells: 17
3 Glittering Wish
3 Cream of the Crop
3 Blasting Station
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Blood Crypt
4 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scarland Thrinax
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Guttural Response
2 Path to Exile
3 Maelstrom Pulse
It seems pretty capable of pulling everything it needs together and I was thinking that more of a "one big turn" win was a better idea for the combo. The only thing I feel like I'm missing is Duress and I should probably find a spot for a card like Autumn's Viel, Silence, or Grand Abolisher.
So that's what I'm looking at starting with, any suggestions or changes will be gladly welcomed. I will start testing later this week hopefully and get back any information I find.
How does it give you an infinite search. You have to tap the creatures as part of the cc to the spell. You can't tap it sac it, tap it again. Does not work.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Crypt Champion
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Reveillark
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Scarland Thrinax
4 Viscera Seer
3 Birthing Pod
3 Blasting Station
2 Chord of Calling
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Pendelhaven
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
Gaddock Teeg being a 1-of is good, though; he's more of a sideboard guy, but if you keep seeing Dragonstorm, Engineered Explosives, and Wrath of God, he can be maindecked.
I can't see why you'd shoehorn in the Project X combo without actually gaining anything from it. To actually make Project X have a point, I recommend an Essence Warden so you can gain infinite life in yet another way.
Edit: I just realized it does not work because of the convoke wording. Glancing and reading are two wildly different things.
Has anyone thought of running Deathcloud or Eldrazi Monument? Monument seems really good for this deck. Protects Melira, gives a sac outlet once a turn, and makes everyone flying.
First thanks for the feedback and second I guess I can explain some of my card choices and decisions.
Essence warden was in original build but was always underwhelming however the crypt champion works like a mini reveillark and will usually come and grab whatever peice of the combo was missing so for the time being he has stayed.
With the tutors I figured tool box creatures would be good and teeg is really just main decked for that purpose.
The Fauna shaman was really more of a test to see what were the appropriate tutor effects and i'm not sold she is the one, however, there are times that being able to pitch combo peice(s) and get reveillark or crypt champion to reanimate them is money.
In the end I think I like the seemingly randomness of the different cards doing the same thing as it keeps my opponents thus far from being able to identify how to stop the deck as easily. I know I have heard some people complaining about spot removal and disruption being issues both of which have not been thus far in testing for me which could be luck or just could be there are too many different ways to get the combo off.