Do you think throwing in a Melira combo into Aristocrats is too much to ask? Murderous Redcap and Kitchen Finks benefit from being sacrificed. With Chord of Calling (Easy to Convoke) and Melira, Sylvok Outcast, you can just win straight up or get infinite life. I guess a list would look something like:
I like the idea of adding the straight up combo to the deck since the pieces are already there. The pieces are more expensive than what we ideally want in the deck since ideally we want multiple creatures in play quickly. But Melira is good with just Young wolf even if it doesn't end the game.
You are running a lot of one ofs and only one Chord. That may not be the right distribution and would need some fine tuning.
Also though it's expensive Juniper Order Ranger does the same job as Melira, and is strong by itself in a deck like this.
But Melira is good with just Young wolf even if it doesn't end the game.
What is the interaction between Young Wolf and Melira? Young wolf has Undying which gives +1/+1 counters, not the persist -1/-1 that melira affects I thought?
It's a great combo but with only 1 Melira, 1 Finks, 2 Redcap and one Chord, are you ever going to be able to get 2 of the 3 to assemble it?
It feels like the pieces are slower than core of deck and quantity makes the combo hard to assemble.
Theres also the fact that pod had the option for a turn 5 win every game when it had combo in it and STILL choose not to run the melira combo. I don't think you need to be adding a second combo to the deck when we already have the rally combo.
On that note: Rally the Ancestors is just straight up better for aristocrats trying to run 4 mana finishers. Remember Return to the ranks comes with a deck building restriction. We want the card to win for us on the spot when we play it, not just get back 2 or 3 1/1's. That honestly doesn't do anything. I will say it again, Ralley the Ancestors wins on the spot, at instant speed. It also does this just by playing a fair game of magic, and then we explode the win out of the graveyard in their upkeep.
Maybe we should just change the name of the deck to Unearth tha Ancestors and there wouldn't be so much confusion on why rally is in the deck.
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Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
Theres also the fact that pod had the option for a turn 5 win every game when it had combo in it and STILL choose not to run the melira combo. I don't think you need to be adding a second combo to the deck when we already have the rally combo.
On that note: Rally the Ancestors is just straight up better for aristocrats trying to run 4 mana finishers. Remember Return to the ranks comes with a deck building restriction. We want the card to win for us on the spot when we play it, not just get back 2 or 3 1/1's. That honestly doesn't do anything. I will say it again, Ralley the Ancestors wins on the spot, at instant speed. It also does this just by playing a fair game of magic, and then we explode the win out of the graveyard in their upkeep.
Maybe we should just change the name of the deck to Unearth tha Ancestors and there wouldn't be so much confusion on why rally is in the deck.
Can't agree more on Rally the Ancestors being the superior card and I can't think of a reason I would play Return to the Ranks over it. Rally allows the deck to almost always have a win be 1 draw step away. Instant speed, 4 mana brings back all the key pieces. Has been working wonders in my Mardu version and catches people off guard quite often.
I haven't tested it yet due to not having had the time (and didn't see it when I skimmed through), but have any of you considered Keldon Marauders? The dude can end up doing two damage just by virtue of doing what he do, and if he connects or trades even once, he's pretty decent value, especially if Blood Artist is around.
Hi everyone.
Used to play zoo. Kinda got bored and was flipping around online when I found David Heineman's list online and was very intrigued. I played junk aristocrats when it was in standard to some small success locally, and I've always loved these decks For a few reasons. I like how redundant every card is, I love that a strong token theme gives you a wide board position, and u love How it often just makes your opponents removal bad.
However, as much as I liked his list, there's a pretty glaring hole for me in how poor his matchup against twin is. My meta is largely twin, burn and boggles (you know. fun, uninteractive decks) and the better players at the end of the night playing abzan, scapeshift and tron. If you had to be very frank, how are we favored against these decks, and is there a way to hedge the matchup without sacrificing synergy?
That being said, I look forward to playing this deck, shipping off reports, discussing cards and, in all likelihood, butting heads.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Junk Aristocrats? Well, you'll probably want a full set of Abrupt Decay mainboard and you could use any of the SB cards that Junk Midrange usually uses against those decks.
Best thing any version of this deck can use against combo is the 1CMC black discard spells. Duress and 'Seize both work equally well in that regard. I maindeck 4 IoK because it's never dead in G1 while I figure out what they're playing, then usually board in 2 Duress in G2 to attack their combo pieces.
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GW Hatebears more like HateBROS BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
Personally, I use dedicated board cards towards combo decks instead of discard because it hurts or consistency. Cards like blind obedience, imposing sovereign, slaughter games, rakdos charm, tunnel Ignus, leyline of sanctity, golgari charm, etc. They allow you to go after combo decks while still having a useful function in your deck
The only thing I can say, is I cannot rate Mogg War Marshall highly enough for a two drop. It's insanely powerful in this deck. as for what to cut, I would say bitterblossom. It actually is too slow for the deck surprisingly.
I'm actually a little disappointed with Frank. I sent him a link to this thread about a month ago, and I never got a reply.then someone plays it on the pro tour and he gets a deck tech -__- smh
The only thing I can say, is I cannot rate Mogg War Marshall highly enough for a two drop. It's insanely powerful in this deck.
Until I saw the primer I didn't know Mogg War Marshal was a card. He does so much to make the deck run, in my opinion. Early game chump blocker that still nets two goblins, later game is 3 tokens for 2 cmc or comes back from the grave as more gas to instant kill the opponent. I think its a tie between him and Cartel Aristocrat on which creature I undervalued more. I don't see either being less than a 4-of in my lists going forward unless something big changes.
I'm actually a little disappointed with Frank. I sent him a link to this thread about a month ago, and I never got a reply.then someone plays it on the pro tour and he gets a deck tech -__- smh
A lot of people still don't want to believe that the deck is the real deal. Everyone of my friends I talk to says things like "you just lose to rest in peace" or "no discard main? no counter spells" You just forfeit the match to twin"
There is this like stereotype around the modern format right now. You can't play blue unless you are combo. You can't play control. You can't play creatures without 8-10 discard spells main. Games end on turn 4 no matter what. Why? Pod was just banned, splintertwin just won another tournament (the pro tour), Ascendency storm and Ascension storm are STILL a thing, and everyone who isn't playing a dedicated combo deck, is able to just throw a combo into their deck for lullz and make it win. Jeskai kiki-control, tron is a combo, infect is a combo, Temur Scapeshift is control with a combo.
I don't know, it is really late and I am tired but I hope you got my point.
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Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
It's worth a try, but I don't think it's the best answer to fight them. In my experience, 90% of the time they will board the combo out against us in favor of the control/ anger of the gods game. If you want a good sb card for them, red offers combust (which is also good against siege rhinos), junk has golgari charm and abrupt decay, and torpor orb/spells kite are both very strong here.
The biggest problem with suture priest is that it's only good against twin and only if they kept in the combo.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Rakdos Charm, Torpor Orb, Combust, Spell Skite. All of those work well, the issue is having them come down and actually stop them from comboing you. Instead of just taking up room in your deck, and then they just bolt snap bolt you, or counter everything you do. No one hate card is good against a deck full of remands and snapcaster mages.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
I'm still working on both versions of the deck, and I want to ask something which I think is worth discussing-
Which version is better? Abzan, Mardu, or (possibly) straight up B/W?
B/W has a slightly better consistency, but a lot of power cards are lost. Meanwhile, Abzan has Voice of Resurgence, Young Wolf, and Thallid, as well as fringe options such as Abzan Ascendancy and Varolz. Meanwhile, Mardu has Lightning Bolt, Mogg War Marshall, and sideboard options of Rakdos Charm, Boros Charm, Wear/Tear, Slaughter Ga,es, and the bigger gameplan options of Falkenrath Aristocrat and Butcher of the Horde.
I'm trying to figure out which version to settle on, and it seems that red's option is more aggro, and green is more resilient in the midrange. I would argue that the red version is better now, if only because of the access to the sideboard plans, but that green is the overall stronger route to go.
I'm running Bob as a 1-of in my Mardu list currently. (I only own one.) He pulls his weight pretty well when he sticks, but I don't know that he's NECESSARY. It could just be that my playgroup is scared of him, but more often than not, he's a sorcery speed "your opponent wastes a removal spell". I'd love to toss in a second, when I pick one up. If you don't run him, I've tried a Tidehollow Skuller in his place, and I'm liking it.
Play Skuller, then sac him with his first ability on the stack. The second ability (return it to their hand) will resolve before you exile anything. Then, the first ability will resolve and you'll exile the card permanently.
With Butcher out, it's basically a 2 mana "give Butcher Lifelink, exile a card from opponent's hand" sorcery.
Not so much as a replacement for Bob, more as a placeholder until I can get a 2nd Bob. That was what I was trying to say.
I'm not saying that's how the deck should be built. I was answering the above poster to whether Bob is NECESSARY. Which, I still feel, he isn't. But he's definitely good and a better option than many other cards that could take that slot.
Anyway... back to actual constructive things about the deck itself. I'm still debating whether Vault of the Archangel is useful in the Mardu build.
Personally I dislike bob in a deck like this for the same reason I disliked boros reckoner or scavenging Ooze in the original lists.
At times he'll be good, but he turns on your opponents removal. If my opponent has an opening grip of 4 lands, spell snare, bolt, snapcaster, playing dark confidant makes that hand good any way they play it. it just makes your opponents removal not suck. it kinda blows cus really, this is the deck he'd be best In.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Is anyone considering taking one of the buulds to a large tournament, such as a StarCity Open or IQ? TCGPLAYER events as well. I'm contemplating taking it to the next star city event, but they don't usually bring any events to my area
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
I like the idea of adding the straight up combo to the deck since the pieces are already there. The pieces are more expensive than what we ideally want in the deck since ideally we want multiple creatures in play quickly. But Melira is good with just Young wolf even if it doesn't end the game.
You are running a lot of one ofs and only one Chord. That may not be the right distribution and would need some fine tuning.
Also though it's expensive Juniper Order Ranger does the same job as Melira, and is strong by itself in a deck like this.
What is the interaction between Young Wolf and Melira? Young wolf has Undying which gives +1/+1 counters, not the persist -1/-1 that melira affects I thought?
It's a great combo but with only 1 Melira, 1 Finks, 2 Redcap and one Chord, are you ever going to be able to get 2 of the 3 to assemble it?
It feels like the pieces are slower than core of deck and quantity makes the combo hard to assemble.
On that note: Rally the Ancestors is just straight up better for aristocrats trying to run 4 mana finishers. Remember Return to the ranks comes with a deck building restriction. We want the card to win for us on the spot when we play it, not just get back 2 or 3 1/1's. That honestly doesn't do anything. I will say it again, Ralley the Ancestors wins on the spot, at instant speed. It also does this just by playing a fair game of magic, and then we explode the win out of the graveyard in their upkeep.
Maybe we should just change the name of the deck to Unearth tha Ancestors and there wouldn't be so much confusion on why rally is in the deck.
Can't agree more on Rally the Ancestors being the superior card and I can't think of a reason I would play Return to the Ranks over it. Rally allows the deck to almost always have a win be 1 draw step away. Instant speed, 4 mana brings back all the key pieces. Has been working wonders in my Mardu version and catches people off guard quite often.
Used to play zoo. Kinda got bored and was flipping around online when I found David Heineman's list online and was very intrigued. I played junk aristocrats when it was in standard to some small success locally, and I've always loved these decks For a few reasons. I like how redundant every card is, I love that a strong token theme gives you a wide board position, and u love How it often just makes your opponents removal bad.
However, as much as I liked his list, there's a pretty glaring hole for me in how poor his matchup against twin is. My meta is largely twin, burn and boggles (you know. fun, uninteractive decks) and the better players at the end of the night playing abzan, scapeshift and tron. If you had to be very frank, how are we favored against these decks, and is there a way to hedge the matchup without sacrificing synergy?
That being said, I look forward to playing this deck, shipping off reports, discussing cards and, in all likelihood, butting heads.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Best thing any version of this deck can use against combo is the 1CMC black discard spells. Duress and 'Seize both work equally well in that regard. I maindeck 4 IoK because it's never dead in G1 while I figure out what they're playing, then usually board in 2 Duress in G2 to attack their combo pieces.
BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
On a side note, hope you like the deck!
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
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Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Until I saw the primer I didn't know Mogg War Marshal was a card. He does so much to make the deck run, in my opinion. Early game chump blocker that still nets two goblins, later game is 3 tokens for 2 cmc or comes back from the grave as more gas to instant kill the opponent. I think its a tie between him and Cartel Aristocrat on which creature I undervalued more. I don't see either being less than a 4-of in my lists going forward unless something big changes.
A lot of people still don't want to believe that the deck is the real deal. Everyone of my friends I talk to says things like "you just lose to rest in peace" or "no discard main? no counter spells" You just forfeit the match to twin"
There is this like stereotype around the modern format right now. You can't play blue unless you are combo. You can't play control. You can't play creatures without 8-10 discard spells main. Games end on turn 4 no matter what. Why? Pod was just banned, splintertwin just won another tournament (the pro tour), Ascendency storm and Ascension storm are STILL a thing, and everyone who isn't playing a dedicated combo deck, is able to just throw a combo into their deck for lullz and make it win. Jeskai kiki-control, tron is a combo, infect is a combo, Temur Scapeshift is control with a combo.
I don't know, it is really late and I am tired but I hope you got my point.
I was thinking about the Twin matchup earlier. Could Suture Priest be an answer?
The biggest problem with suture priest is that it's only good against twin and only if they kept in the combo.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Which version is better? Abzan, Mardu, or (possibly) straight up B/W?
B/W has a slightly better consistency, but a lot of power cards are lost. Meanwhile, Abzan has Voice of Resurgence, Young Wolf, and Thallid, as well as fringe options such as Abzan Ascendancy and Varolz. Meanwhile, Mardu has Lightning Bolt, Mogg War Marshall, and sideboard options of Rakdos Charm, Boros Charm, Wear/Tear, Slaughter Ga,es, and the bigger gameplan options of Falkenrath Aristocrat and Butcher of the Horde.
I'm trying to figure out which version to settle on, and it seems that red's option is more aggro, and green is more resilient in the midrange. I would argue that the red version is better now, if only because of the access to the sideboard plans, but that green is the overall stronger route to go.
Lastly- Dark Confidant, a must, or no?
Play Skuller, then sac him with his first ability on the stack. The second ability (return it to their hand) will resolve before you exile anything. Then, the first ability will resolve and you'll exile the card permanently.
With Butcher out, it's basically a 2 mana "give Butcher Lifelink, exile a card from opponent's hand" sorcery.
I'm not saying that's how the deck should be built. I was answering the above poster to whether Bob is NECESSARY. Which, I still feel, he isn't. But he's definitely good and a better option than many other cards that could take that slot.
Anyway... back to actual constructive things about the deck itself. I'm still debating whether Vault of the Archangel is useful in the Mardu build.
At times he'll be good, but he turns on your opponents removal. If my opponent has an opening grip of 4 lands, spell snare, bolt, snapcaster, playing dark confidant makes that hand good any way they play it. it just makes your opponents removal not suck. it kinda blows cus really, this is the deck he'd be best In.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought