Yes Wind Zendiko gives you a better agro plan while making your combo worse and more likely to flizzle.
About the abrupt decay: you play Fatestitcher first, play Ascendancy, and when they decay your ascendancy in response to Fatestitcher untap effect, you just respond with an instant to untap Fatestitcher again and keep going instant speed until the kill or until you find another Ascendancy. The problem with Win Zendiko against decays is that you can never have both combo pieces in play against a decay because they will allways decay first one in response to the second.
I generally find that Decay hits Ascendancy, not mana dorks (unless I'm killing my opponent with mana dorks). If they're stupid enough to Decay Wind Zendikon in response to Ascendancy, I'm happy. (I do prefer casting Zendikon after Ascendancy to expose Zendikon to as few removal spells as possible, though, so the Decay Ascendancy in response to Zendikon problem is valid.)
When I'm not up against disruption during my combo turn, my fizzle rate is pretty similar to the Fatestitcher version's from my experience. I ditch more mid-combo Ascendancies and removal spells, though.
I tried out this deck against a guy on 5-coloured Humans, and Thalia is definitely a lot more painful against Zendikon builds than Fatestitcher builds. If I Bolted his Experiment One in response to Falkenrath Aristocrat in the game where I never found Ascendancy instead of in response to Evolve, I would have been able to save 1 life, cast a post-board Supreme Verdict after cracking a fetch and going down to 1 life, and possibly stabilize. (Zendikon forced Aristocrat to sac another Human that game by threatening to trade with it!)
Zendikon's ability to help you stabilize pre-combo by blocking is pretty valuable, too (although, again, it'll likely only save you about 10% of the time).
Question, any thoughts on Faithless looting over Izzet Charm?
I know that Brad Nelson is running them in his legacy version.
It has less uses, yes, but getting to loot for one less, plus the flashback might come up in the game rather than the Izzet Charm being a one-time loot/shock/mana leak.
I've tested this deck extensively and have found that Izzet Charm is an invaluable asset. Since it doubles as a counterspell and removal it helps tremendously against certain matchups, and paying an extra mana for an instant speed looting isn't a terrible idea. Legacy isn't modern and just because looting is preferable in one doesn't necesarily mean it works well in the other. If you really want spells you can recycle try running 1-2 Snapcasters, I've been playtesting them and so far they are doing pretty well.
Question, any thoughts on Faithless looting over Izzet Charm?
I know that Brad Nelson is running them in his legacy version.
It has less uses, yes, but getting to loot for one less, plus the flashback might come up in the game rather than the Izzet Charm being a one-time loot/shock/mana leak.
I end up using Izzet Charm's other 2 modes most of the time pre-combo, so no, I wouldn't replace Izzet Charm in this more controlling build. Heck, I sometimes use Izzet Charm's other 2 modes mid-combo (well, the creature Shock mode).
Yeah 2 damage is no bolt, but it kills delver, Eidolon, unpumped ooze and swiftspear, many of the creatures DnT/Hatebears run, infect creatures, etc etc.
Got some games in today and it's still running fantastic. Most of my testing has been vs. Pod and Tron and neither can really interact with you well enough. Even multiple Karns wasn't enough to slow me down.
A question to everyone else testing this deck: What are it's worst matchups? What are its worst? I've personally found Burn to be one of the hardest, aggro delver pretty easy and hatebears about 50/50 depending on who wins the roll and which threats they draw vs which you draw.
Also has anyone playtested with Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer or Snapcaster mage? They have some minor negative synergy with delve but both all seem like really potent threats which could help stabilize the board until you lay down Ascendancy. Lavamancer in particular seems like it has great synergy with Ascendancy, and can easily take out Eidolon, Thalia, Hierarch, Arbiter etc.
A question to everyone else testing this deck: What are it's worst matchups? What are its worst? I've personally found Burn to be one of the hardest, aggro delver pretty easy and hatebears about 50/50 depending on who wins the roll and which threats they draw vs which you draw.
Also has anyone playtested with Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer or Snapcaster mage? They have some minor negative synergy with delve but both all seem like really potent threats which could help stabilize the board until you lay down Ascendancy. Lavamancer in particular seems like it has great synergy with Ascendancy, and can easily take out Eidolon, Thalia, Hierarch, Arbiter etc.
I tried out some games against Small Naya Zoo (1-drops, Burning-Tree Emissary, 2-drops, Ghor-Clan Rampager--old-school) with both builds, and the pre-board match-up was surprisingly terrible. The Burn match-up felt more winnable. They play 12 removal spells and fast fat, and I basically can't stick the combo. Then, I die because I can't boot their guys fast enough. I feel like Glitter Storm has a better chance against them.
I haven't tested Lavamancer/Pyro/Tiago in my build--I like the guaranteed disruption and evasion V. Clique brings too much--but those guys probably wouldn't be bad in this deck...
Instead of "UWR Jeskai Ascendancy Combo-Control" can we please title this deck something a little more concise like CFB Ascendency or Stitcher Storm?
I actually quite like the name Jeskai Hatebears myself.
Anyway in my testing this deck is smooth as butter, although it takes a while to get used to since you have to work through all of the triggers. I'm having trouble figuring out if certain in my matchups are good or bad, because I think a lot of my opponents are punting and don't know how to play against the deck.
Anyone else have a similar problem?
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Jeskai Hatebears doesn't really work though, since this deck has literally nothing in common with hatebears except for path to exile. Stitcher Storm sounds pretty cool though, I'm a fan. It would be cool if we could find a weird, legacy-esque name for this deck though, modern deck names are so boring at the moment.
Also yeah I have a similar problem, plus the program I use to test (MWS) doesn't really provide the best opponents. That said this deck has hit 4-0 or 3-1 on MTGO Daily's pretty much every day since it became a thing, which is evidence that it performs well even against better-prepared opponents. Given that the core deck is so consistent I've mostly spent my time testing ways to make it even better. Currently I'm testing Clique, Pyromancer, Lavamancer, Snapcaster, Pyroclasm and Wind Zendikon (although not all at the same time obviously) to see how much they help or hurt this deck.
Is there any thoughts on adding some number of Splinter Twin or Silence to the 75? Silence is great against the "I'm going to hold up Abrupt Decay or multiple counters all game" plan. A couple Splinter Twin could be okay with 4 Dig main since it allows a win on extremely low resources without as big of a sideboard commitment as the Gifts plan.
I'm going to put Silence in SB for my online version since I dont have the Gifts package yet, but my paper build is 100% so I dont think silence is needed. I'm still weary of Gifts in general, but need to test it more. As for the person that said Burn is hard, I totally agree. The weakness of our deck is its health total and mana base. I think 3 Timely Reinforcements is good, ditching a counter spell in the SB. Destructive Revelry and Smash to Smitherinese is something we need to be weary of on top of them just swinging in with 2 or 3 instant speed burn spells for like 6-7 damage on the turn you need to go off.
As for any other deck that has no interaction, it should be easy tbh
Wind Zendikon i feel should only be used if there is a lot of graveyard hate going on. I feel that really only things like Rest In Piece is troublesome. Relic can be a problem probably also but we can get fatestitcher in at instant speed to it doenst really matter unless we milled it via thought scour
FOr Splinter Twin, theres no point. We usually want to Unearth Fatestitcher the same turn we go off, which we can do for 3 mana(for JA)+1(for Unearth)-1 untap = 3 total, where Twin is 4 mana(double red) and really no point since if we go off, we win anyways. We rather have cheap spells so that in response to something like abrupt decay we can do stuff
I assume splinter twin isn't intended to be run with the Ascendancy combo, but is instead intended to replace it post game, a la the gifts ungiven sb. I think it's an interesting idea, especially since we share much of 75 with twin already, though I'm not 100% sold so I will do some testing. Since my last post I've found that Grim Lavamancer may not be the best option for this deck (though I'm not 100% confident in this, dude has potential), and that Pyroclasm absolutely is the best option for this deck since that card is absurd in today's meta. One last card I totally forgot about but think is probably exactly what this deck needs: 1-2x Spellskite, to deal with all those pesky Abrupt Decay, Destructive Revelry and Quasali Pridemage.
Hey Guys, I have been testing with this deck a little bit. Mostly against mono-G nykthos devotion and a couple times against a GW hatebears. I can post some info about the games if you are interested but I had a sweet idea sparked by the splinter twin discussion. What if we ran a Twinflame or two. Its sweet during combo turns and if you side out the combo for pyromancers its even better. Thoughts?
I'm going to put Silence in SB for my online version since I dont have the Gifts package yet, but my paper build is 100% so I dont think silence is needed. I'm still weary of Gifts in general, but need to test it more. As for the person that said Burn is hard, I totally agree. The weakness of our deck is its health total and mana base. I think 3 Timely Reinforcements is good, ditching a counter spell in the SB. Destructive Revelry and Smash to Smitherinese is something we need to be weary of on top of them just swinging in with 2 or 3 instant speed burn spells for like 6-7 damage on the turn you need to go off.
As for any other deck that has no interaction, it should be easy tbh
Wind Zendikon i feel should only be used if there is a lot of graveyard hate going on. I feel that really only things like Rest In Piece is troublesome. Relic can be a problem probably also but we can get fatestitcher in at instant speed to it doenst really matter unless we milled it via thought scour
FOr Splinter Twin, theres no point. We usually want to Unearth Fatestitcher the same turn we go off, which we can do for 3 mana(for JA)+1(for Unearth)-1 untap = 3 total, where Twin is 4 mana(double red) and really no point since if we go off, we win anyways. We rather have cheap spells so that in response to something like abrupt decay we can do stuff
You cannot Unearth as an instant, only at sorcery speed.
I wouldn't say Splinter Twin belongs in the main, it dilutes the main gameplan too much as you said, but I'm not convinced it's just worse than Gifts. Twin allows the deck to just win on the spot, but it does require two cards while Gifts requires just one.
Worst matchups: Burn and other agressive decks. Counterspells+ decays can be tricky as well.
About Izzit charm vs looting, while I like the idea of looting, izzit charm doubles as a removal spell and tripples as a counterspell, im down to 3 and really wish i could find room for a 4th (which is sitting in the board for now)
Ive found that I really like some young pyromancers in the main deck. They aborb instant removal and are legitimate game winners outside of ascendancy.
My super secret tech is Lingering Souls. I play 3 main deck as well, with only a watery grave and a godless shrine to cast its flashback (which is more than enough with 9 fetches-all of which can grab them). I have the 4th one in the board. I love how much time it saves vs midrange, as well as how well it matches up against 1 for 1 removal and counterspells. The tokens have flying as well, which makes combo turns all the more potent. It also makes your thought scours ever so slightly more benificial, and is yet another card that is easy to discard to ascendancy mid combo. This doesnt even touch on the benefits of having a way to activate ascendancy out of the grave yard is, or how awesome it is to get an extra +1/+1 and loot off of a single card.
As for my sideboard plan: Ive had the most success with transeforming into Jeskai midrange postboard (with a reduced combo). I have access to 2x brimaz, 2x elspeth Knigh errant, the last young pyromancer, last lingering souls, last izzit charm, 2x seeker of the way, 1 faerie conclave, and 3 timely reinforcements. Out of those cards, I bring in the best 7-11 to combat the deck that I am facing, trading out whatever the weakest 'packages' are in that match.
A lot of the time I just end up siding out fatestitchers and gitaxian probes for a land and whatever, it turns out that having a deck full of removal, cantirps, and standalone threats is great deck concept.
I generally find that Decay hits Ascendancy, not mana dorks (unless I'm killing my opponent with mana dorks). If they're stupid enough to Decay Wind Zendikon in response to Ascendancy, I'm happy. (I do prefer casting Zendikon after Ascendancy to expose Zendikon to as few removal spells as possible, though, so the Decay Ascendancy in response to Zendikon problem is valid.)
When I'm not up against disruption during my combo turn, my fizzle rate is pretty similar to the Fatestitcher version's from my experience. I ditch more mid-combo Ascendancies and removal spells, though.
I tried out this deck against a guy on 5-coloured Humans, and Thalia is definitely a lot more painful against Zendikon builds than Fatestitcher builds. If I Bolted his Experiment One in response to Falkenrath Aristocrat in the game where I never found Ascendancy instead of in response to Evolve, I would have been able to save 1 life, cast a post-board Supreme Verdict after cracking a fetch and going down to 1 life, and possibly stabilize. (Zendikon forced Aristocrat to sac another Human that game by threatening to trade with it!)
Zendikon's ability to help you stabilize pre-combo by blocking is pretty valuable, too (although, again, it'll likely only save you about 10% of the time).
I know that Brad Nelson is running them in his legacy version.
It has less uses, yes, but getting to loot for one less, plus the flashback might come up in the game rather than the Izzet Charm being a one-time loot/shock/mana leak.
I end up using Izzet Charm's other 2 modes most of the time pre-combo, so no, I wouldn't replace Izzet Charm in this more controlling build. Heck, I sometimes use Izzet Charm's other 2 modes mid-combo (well, the creature Shock mode).
Thanks, guys!
Also has anyone playtested with Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer or Snapcaster mage? They have some minor negative synergy with delve but both all seem like really potent threats which could help stabilize the board until you lay down Ascendancy. Lavamancer in particular seems like it has great synergy with Ascendancy, and can easily take out Eidolon, Thalia, Hierarch, Arbiter etc.
I tried out some games against Small Naya Zoo (1-drops, Burning-Tree Emissary, 2-drops, Ghor-Clan Rampager--old-school) with both builds, and the pre-board match-up was surprisingly terrible. The Burn match-up felt more winnable. They play 12 removal spells and fast fat, and I basically can't stick the combo. Then, I die because I can't boot their guys fast enough. I feel like Glitter Storm has a better chance against them.
I haven't tested Lavamancer/Pyro/Tiago in my build--I like the guaranteed disruption and evasion V. Clique brings too much--but those guys probably wouldn't be bad in this deck...
I actually quite like the name Jeskai Hatebears myself.
Anyway in my testing this deck is smooth as butter, although it takes a while to get used to since you have to work through all of the triggers. I'm having trouble figuring out if certain in my matchups are good or bad, because I think a lot of my opponents are punting and don't know how to play against the deck.
Anyone else have a similar problem?
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Also yeah I have a similar problem, plus the program I use to test (MWS) doesn't really provide the best opponents. That said this deck has hit 4-0 or 3-1 on MTGO Daily's pretty much every day since it became a thing, which is evidence that it performs well even against better-prepared opponents. Given that the core deck is so consistent I've mostly spent my time testing ways to make it even better. Currently I'm testing Clique, Pyromancer, Lavamancer, Snapcaster, Pyroclasm and Wind Zendikon (although not all at the same time obviously) to see how much they help or hurt this deck.
As for any other deck that has no interaction, it should be easy tbh
Wind Zendikon i feel should only be used if there is a lot of graveyard hate going on. I feel that really only things like Rest In Piece is troublesome. Relic can be a problem probably also but we can get fatestitcher in at instant speed to it doenst really matter unless we milled it via thought scour
FOr Splinter Twin, theres no point. We usually want to Unearth Fatestitcher the same turn we go off, which we can do for 3 mana(for JA)+1(for Unearth)-1 untap = 3 total, where Twin is 4 mana(double red) and really no point since if we go off, we win anyways. We rather have cheap spells so that in response to something like abrupt decay we can do stuff
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
You cannot Unearth as an instant, only at sorcery speed.
I wouldn't say Splinter Twin belongs in the main, it dilutes the main gameplan too much as you said, but I'm not convinced it's just worse than Gifts. Twin allows the deck to just win on the spot, but it does require two cards while Gifts requires just one.
Worst matchups: Burn and other agressive decks. Counterspells+ decays can be tricky as well.
About Izzit charm vs looting, while I like the idea of looting, izzit charm doubles as a removal spell and tripples as a counterspell, im down to 3 and really wish i could find room for a 4th (which is sitting in the board for now)
Ive found that I really like some young pyromancers in the main deck. They aborb instant removal and are legitimate game winners outside of ascendancy.
My super secret tech is Lingering Souls. I play 3 main deck as well, with only a watery grave and a godless shrine to cast its flashback (which is more than enough with 9 fetches-all of which can grab them). I have the 4th one in the board. I love how much time it saves vs midrange, as well as how well it matches up against 1 for 1 removal and counterspells. The tokens have flying as well, which makes combo turns all the more potent. It also makes your thought scours ever so slightly more benificial, and is yet another card that is easy to discard to ascendancy mid combo. This doesnt even touch on the benefits of having a way to activate ascendancy out of the grave yard is, or how awesome it is to get an extra +1/+1 and loot off of a single card.
As for my sideboard plan: Ive had the most success with transeforming into Jeskai midrange postboard (with a reduced combo). I have access to 2x brimaz, 2x elspeth Knigh errant, the last young pyromancer, last lingering souls, last izzit charm, 2x seeker of the way, 1 faerie conclave, and 3 timely reinforcements. Out of those cards, I bring in the best 7-11 to combat the deck that I am facing, trading out whatever the weakest 'packages' are in that match.
A lot of the time I just end up siding out fatestitchers and gitaxian probes for a land and whatever, it turns out that having a deck full of removal, cantirps, and standalone threats is great deck concept.