As for teachings, it is just way too expensive, plain and simple. A single remand just ruins your day and god forbid they remand the flashback part. I'd much rather have a revelation in it's place. When you cast teachings, you have to get something that is som incredible that it is worth spending your entire turn 4 and turn 5 casting it because teachings effectively adds an additional 4 mana to it's mana cost.
I wouldn't be so quick to write off Mystical Teachings. There is an entire archetype around the card and it has put up solid results in the past. I had the same impression as you did at first, which is what made me so curious about the Esper Teachings deck in a first place: how in a blisteringly fast format that is Modern a control deck that runs four copies of a 4-mana tutor could put up such solid results as winning Worlds in 2011.
While it certainly is useless in the early game, in the mid and late game it can perform a lot better than it looks. It is quite common to get into situations where only one or two cards in your entire deck can get you out of it, which is where Mystical Teachings shines. Even outside of those situations, playing with the card feels like playing with a Birthing Pod in the inevitability it provides you. A single Mystical Teachings in the graveyard can lead to large amount of card advantage over time by first getting another Mystical Teachings and using that one to get a Sphinx's Revelation, for example. While slow, that situation comes up surprisingly frequently in a deck that is built to stall out the game.
Finally, the instant-speed of Mystical Teachings is incredibly relevant, being able to tutor up counterspells in response to spells on the stack. In many of the games that I've played with Esper Teachings where I stabilize to the late game and had a Mystical Teachings in hand, the feeling I had towards my opponent was: "it doesn't matter what you topdeck, I have an answer for it."
Nevertheless, in order to use Mystical Teachings effectively your deck needs to have a large number of instants and/or flash creatures and a low level of redundancy. In many of the lists being posted here there are multiple copies of the same spells and a lot of key sorcery-speed spells, which Mystical Teachings does not help you find, making it a poor choice in those decks.
Baneslayer loses to Path, too. Other than that caviat, it is a safer bomb than Baneslayer, albeit being slower.
Either of those 3 would be fine options for finishers, though.
Sun Titan can be good here, but it would require a packaged deal and a different direction, as you said. If we were to present a Sun Titan variant, I believe it would look something like this:
Having access to Esper Charm, hand disruption, and more spot removals does not make it redundant. Remember Solar Flare? I'm simply offering players a different approach depending on style/preference. This is a time when Esper has the opportunity to benefit from creativity and diversity. It has room to grow.
I've considered nephalia drownyard but never ended up testing it because of the mana requirements of the deck. After playing esper with drawoyard in standard I know for sure that you need the full set of 4 in the deck for it to be a valid win condition and still be able to get there within the 50 minutes of a round. That and the fact that we can't afford 4 colorless lands and still need tectonic edge effects I don't think that we can support it. I'm willing to be proved wrong, but I don't want to put myself (or any of my friends for that matter hehe) through that just for testing.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
It can be done if we opt for a combination of Spreading Seas/Fulminator Sage/Rain of Tears over the lack of Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter.
Is a mana disruption sweet nesscesary? I mean lots of decks have fragile mana but in my meta nobody has well developed mana bases, so in my meta it doesn't matter but what about a more developed one
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Storm and Burn all formats
MODERN
GRIXIS FAERIES
FISH
NAYA BURN STANDARD
RABBLE RED E D H
OCEAN MASTER LORTHOS
Daretti's House of Artifacts AND LAND DESTRUCTION
SIDISI VALUE
It can be done if we opt for a combination of Spreading Seas/Fulminator Sage/Rain of Tears over the lack of Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter.
Is a mana disruption sweet nesscesary? I mean lots of decks have fragile mana but in my meta nobody has well developed mana bases, so in my meta it doesn't matter but what about a more developed one
It's not mana disruption its removal for manlands and anti-combo pieces against tron, scapeshift, and amulet combo. It is definitely needed in some amount.
Also I added in a VERY general sideboard guide to the primer that covers the most popular decks, a little bit on note taking with your sideboard, and some very generic recommendations on what is good in a match, what's bad, and what you can expect them to bring in against you.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Since we're on the topic of Tron, Geist of Saint Traft has been stellar in this matchup. He provides a quick clock and forces rushed play.
By the way, do we just fold to Blood Moon? I think Thoughtseize, Negate, Disenchant, and Celestial Purge can help, but I think a proactive approach may be better, like Meddling Mage. I've scooped to Choke, too.
Disruption gives you virtual card advantage because the knowledge you gain from knowing what they're playing with only makes your counters stronger because you will be able to better determine when and on what to use your counters on, while also improving the effectiveness of your removals. On the contrary, disruption + counters is win-win.
Disruption gives you virtual card advantage because the knowledge you gain from knowing what they're playing with only makes your counters stronger because you will be able to better determine when and on what to use your counters on, while also improving the effectiveness of your removals. On the contrary, disruption + counters is win-win.
The problem is that discard can't prevent top decks and is generally not great against Aggro decks because it doesn't force your opponents to spend their mana first and neuter their plans later. Let's just say that I'm not convinced that discard and counters usually work well together but I'm, of course, open to be proven otherwise.
Discard and counter magic work perfectly together when you're concerned about your opponents having counter magic. It affords you another, and usually cheaper, way to force something to resolve. The information that it provides is also not to be underestimated. Also you can sometimes be worried about threats that can resolve before your counter magic can come online in which case a well placed thoughtseize can help to bridge the gap.
I agree that the two typically don't play well together, but there are a number of situations where having both is quite valuable which is why I like thoughtseize in the side.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Analyzing wafo-tapa's deck i'm curious about why he isn't using Lingering souls.
My guess on why he's not using it is because he's playing a heavy control permission type strategy and tapping out for lingering souls isn't good, but is there a reason i'm missing?
Also how does he deal with early aggression G1 besides spell snaring 2 drops and pathing high priority targets.
@ mordath
Liliana is not good in our deck because it is very good against us, we always want to have a fistful of cards and adding liliana is counter productive. If you want to be "proactive" you should work on a midrange deck, not control. Doing so would require you to cut most of the card draw which is the backbone of esper control and you end up building an entirely different deck. It has also been discussed quite a bit that discard in the main is not really a good idea as they don't help without serious pressure. Some people don't even like discard in the side.
@ firepanic
That's why a lot of us are trying to work in lingering souls and extra spot removal like smother, dismember, or slaughter pact. I'm in favor of cutting the do nothing cantrips that don't provide actual card advantage on their own for more business. Card draw is only as good as the cards you have available to draw and if you cantrip into cantrip you're not gaining any traction in the game.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I had a couple of issues with the Primer. First, it should really be 'control in its purest form' not it's, but more importantly, the discard mode on Esper Charm is actually extremely potent against UWR control decks and is the reason I almost always win against them.
Today I won an 8man against Storm, Jund Assault Loam, and Amulet of Vigor Combo. This deck is starting to pay for itself!
the discard mode on Esper Charm is actually extremely potent against UWR control decks and is the reason I almost always win against them.
Today I won an 8man against Storm, Jund Assault Loam, and Amulet of Vigor Combo. This deck is starting to pay for itself!
Nicely done on the finish, would you care to share your list? And do you really use the charm to mind rot uwr control? I almost always use it as a divination in that match unless I'm in danger of discarding to hand size. In game 1 they have so many worthless cards that they can pitch to it that it rarely seems worth it. I mean granted you can take their burn which is the best way to beat you, but I can usually force through a rev at some point by being so far ahead on cards. Though I do tend to make them discard a bit more often in games 2-3 because of the higher density of important cards. Perhaps the match is just so good all around that it's a tad irrelevant.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I started tinkering with a proactive version of the deck so that I can add it to the primer. Based on what people have been talking about here's what I've got so far. More beaters, some walkers, less card draw, counters, removal, and wraths. Thoughts?
He is sadly not really good in the format. He is good against bgx and maybe pod but those are already good matchups and elspeth is just better in those matchups and others. His plus 1 is only good vs tokens since creatures in modern get really big or your opponent will try to combo you out if you tap down for him.
He is sadly not really good in the format. He is good against bgx and maybe pod but those are already good matchups and elspeth is just better in those matchups and others. His plus 1 is only good vs tokens since creatures in modern get really big or your opponent will try to combo you out if you tap down for him.
Completely agreed. If you're looking for a planeswalker that gives you raw card advantage go with the original: Jace Beleren. At his absolute worst he draws a card and gains 3 life for 3 mana, not terrible. At best he's a personal howling mine when used right. Against decks with bolts in them don't be afraid to just plus him first and then start to tick on down, his +2 ability draws your opponent a card, but since you get one as well it's still a 2 for 1. Your opponent gets a card, you get a card AND a 5 loyalty walker in play that they have to answer before he draws you 5 more cards.
But all that being said I think I'd max out on think twice before adding them in. As a rule, I try and stay away from sorcery speed durdles and things that die to abrupt decay in the main deck.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I started tinkering with a proactive version of the deck so that I can add it to the primer. Based on what people have been talking about here's what I've got so far. More beaters, some walkers, less card draw, counters, removal, and wraths. Thoughts?
Awesome tapout variation. I love that we can go two routes while still executing our gameplan. I've been doing very well with a tapout version (close to what I posted on the previous page) and it's taken several people by surprise. I've even been asked for my decklist!
As for Architect of Thought, it's a fine addition (It does well in UB Fairies), but not necessary. Jace Beleren or more Think Twice would probably be better.
I wouldn't be so quick to write off Mystical Teachings. There is an entire archetype around the card and it has put up solid results in the past. I had the same impression as you did at first, which is what made me so curious about the Esper Teachings deck in a first place: how in a blisteringly fast format that is Modern a control deck that runs four copies of a 4-mana tutor could put up such solid results as winning Worlds in 2011.
While it certainly is useless in the early game, in the mid and late game it can perform a lot better than it looks. It is quite common to get into situations where only one or two cards in your entire deck can get you out of it, which is where Mystical Teachings shines. Even outside of those situations, playing with the card feels like playing with a Birthing Pod in the inevitability it provides you. A single Mystical Teachings in the graveyard can lead to large amount of card advantage over time by first getting another Mystical Teachings and using that one to get a Sphinx's Revelation, for example. While slow, that situation comes up surprisingly frequently in a deck that is built to stall out the game.
Finally, the instant-speed of Mystical Teachings is incredibly relevant, being able to tutor up counterspells in response to spells on the stack. In many of the games that I've played with Esper Teachings where I stabilize to the late game and had a Mystical Teachings in hand, the feeling I had towards my opponent was: "it doesn't matter what you topdeck, I have an answer for it."
Nevertheless, in order to use Mystical Teachings effectively your deck needs to have a large number of instants and/or flash creatures and a low level of redundancy. In many of the lists being posted here there are multiple copies of the same spells and a lot of key sorcery-speed spells, which Mystical Teachings does not help you find, making it a poor choice in those decks.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
Either of those 3 would be fine options for finishers, though.
Sun Titan can be good here, but it would require a packaged deal and a different direction, as you said. If we were to present a Sun Titan variant, I believe it would look something like this:
2 Sun Titan
1 Restoration Angel
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Wall of Omens
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers: 2
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Liliana of the Veil
Draw: 6
4 Esper Charm
2 Spreading Seas
Counters: 6
3 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
Removals: 10
4 Path to Exile
2 Dead Weight
1 Detention Sphere
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Batterskull
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Meddling Mage
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Spellskite
1 Utter End
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
3 Thoughtseize
I think we should split this archetype into two styles: Draw-Go and Tapout. Both versions have their advantages and disadvantages.
For those interested in building around Sun Titan, the following are his best creature targets:
If I missed any, please post them. I will also provide the best enchantment and artifact targets.
Is a mana disruption sweet nesscesary? I mean lots of decks have fragile mana but in my meta nobody has well developed mana bases, so in my meta it doesn't matter but what about a more developed one
MODERN
GRIXIS FAERIES
FISH
NAYA BURN
STANDARD
RABBLE RED
E D H
OCEAN MASTER LORTHOS
Daretti's House of Artifacts AND LAND DESTRUCTION
SIDISI VALUE
It's not mana disruption its removal for manlands and anti-combo pieces against tron, scapeshift, and amulet combo. It is definitely needed in some amount.
Also I added in a VERY general sideboard guide to the primer that covers the most popular decks, a little bit on note taking with your sideboard, and some very generic recommendations on what is good in a match, what's bad, and what you can expect them to bring in against you.
By the way, do we just fold to Blood Moon? I think Thoughtseize, Negate, Disenchant, and Celestial Purge can help, but I think a proactive approach may be better, like Meddling Mage. I've scooped to Choke, too.
Discard and counter magic work perfectly together when you're concerned about your opponents having counter magic. It affords you another, and usually cheaper, way to force something to resolve. The information that it provides is also not to be underestimated. Also you can sometimes be worried about threats that can resolve before your counter magic can come online in which case a well placed thoughtseize can help to bridge the gap.
I agree that the two typically don't play well together, but there are a number of situations where having both is quite valuable which is why I like thoughtseize in the side.
My guess on why he's not using it is because he's playing a heavy control permission type strategy and tapping out for lingering souls isn't good, but is there a reason i'm missing?
Also how does he deal with early aggression G1 besides spell snaring 2 drops and pathing high priority targets.
Liliana is not good in our deck because it is very good against us, we always want to have a fistful of cards and adding liliana is counter productive. If you want to be "proactive" you should work on a midrange deck, not control. Doing so would require you to cut most of the card draw which is the backbone of esper control and you end up building an entirely different deck. It has also been discussed quite a bit that discard in the main is not really a good idea as they don't help without serious pressure. Some people don't even like discard in the side.
@ firepanic
That's why a lot of us are trying to work in lingering souls and extra spot removal like smother, dismember, or slaughter pact. I'm in favor of cutting the do nothing cantrips that don't provide actual card advantage on their own for more business. Card draw is only as good as the cards you have available to draw and if you cantrip into cantrip you're not gaining any traction in the game.
Today I won an 8man against Storm, Jund Assault Loam, and Amulet of Vigor Combo. This deck is starting to pay for itself!
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Nicely done on the finish, would you care to share your list? And do you really use the charm to mind rot uwr control? I almost always use it as a divination in that match unless I'm in danger of discarding to hand size. In game 1 they have so many worthless cards that they can pitch to it that it rarely seems worth it. I mean granted you can take their burn which is the best way to beat you, but I can usually force through a rev at some point by being so far ahead on cards. Though I do tend to make them discard a bit more often in games 2-3 because of the higher density of important cards. Perhaps the match is just so good all around that it's a tad irrelevant.
3 lingering souls
1 restoration angel
2 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
Walkers:
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 gideon jura
Removal:
4 path to exile
1 wrath of god
1 utter end
1 dismember
Counters:
3 cryptic command
3 mana leak
3 spell snare
4 esper charm
2 think twice
2 sphinx's revelation
Mana
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 island
1 plains
1 swamp
2 tectonic edge
4 celestial colonnade
1 creeping tar pit
3 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
1 glacial fortress
3 negate
3 thoughtseize
1 dispel
2 ashiok, nightmare weaver
1 wrath of god
1 supreme verdict
1 engineered explosives
1 stony silence
1 celestial purge
1 smother
He is sadly not really good in the format. He is good against bgx and maybe pod but those are already good matchups and elspeth is just better in those matchups and others. His plus 1 is only good vs tokens since creatures in modern get really big or your opponent will try to combo you out if you tap down for him.
Completely agreed. If you're looking for a planeswalker that gives you raw card advantage go with the original: Jace Beleren. At his absolute worst he draws a card and gains 3 life for 3 mana, not terrible. At best he's a personal howling mine when used right. Against decks with bolts in them don't be afraid to just plus him first and then start to tick on down, his +2 ability draws your opponent a card, but since you get one as well it's still a 2 for 1. Your opponent gets a card, you get a card AND a 5 loyalty walker in play that they have to answer before he draws you 5 more cards.
But all that being said I think I'd max out on think twice before adding them in. As a rule, I try and stay away from sorcery speed durdles and things that die to abrupt decay in the main deck.
Awesome tapout variation. I love that we can go two routes while still executing our gameplan. I've been doing very well with a tapout version (close to what I posted on the previous page) and it's taken several people by surprise. I've even been asked for my decklist!
As for Architect of Thought, it's a fine addition (It does well in UB Fairies), but not necessary. Jace Beleren or more Think Twice would probably be better.