For those of you who are used to play against Tron, is Bribery that good as a sideboard card?
If so, how many do usually have in SB and what do you replace it for MD?
It is really good from my experience. You need other disruptive elements to even to stall until you find it and make sure karn does not stick. Once you cast the Bribery the game is prrtty much won for you. Like I said earlier clique will be one of the most important cards in the sideboard along with targetted discard in my humble opinion.
So, if I already have answers to Karn and Wurmcoil Engine I shall be fine with Bribery to close the deal?
If all your answers lineup with their threats then yes especially if you have discard to shuffle their emrakul to their deck. The matchup will always be pretty bad but Bribery at least gives you a way to steal trons inevitability but the problem is that having all the right answers to so many must answer cards until you draw the bribery is still really bard. This gets much worse when it is uw tron that can fight back with their own countermagic.
Vs Tron: hide/seek, gather specimens, duress/thoughtseize, mindbreak trap all work in addition to bribery.
I do see tron being the biggest issue for control, that and affinity with the nuts will usually be able to just run us over, even if we wrath on turn 4, damage is often done.
nonetheless, I am happy for the meta shift, control wise. I just wish we got our ancestral visions unbanned.
[quote from="guineapirate »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-deck-creation/571123-modern-esper-control?comment=1293"]the pproblem is that if you play exactly one bribery and they play one emrakul, you will have situations when emrakul is in their hand
I personally have a pretty good matchup record against all versions of tron, with 2 surgicals sideboard, 2 mainboard tectonic edges, a stony silence, three duresses, baneslayer, Elspeth coming in against most tron builds. The key is to cut most of your permission except remands and cryptics, and basically hope to snag the karns with your discard (esper charm/duress) and save paths for the creature threats. I don't specifically try to deal with emrakul out of RG, you can surgical it using cryptic's time walk mode to buy you the turn to wrath it away. Just takes some playing around. The real game plan is to cut them off tron with tec edge + surgical extraction, which makes the matchup a hell of a lot easier past that point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Hi guys, I've decided I want to move in on a Control archetype, but the hipster in me doesn't like playing UWR. When playing that deck I always wish my burn spells were unconditional removal or counterspells, and Esper Charm is just the sweetest thing going.
I have a couple of questions, and I've yet to scroll through this entire thread.
Is the accepted land count 25 or 26?
Of the remaining 35/34 spells, how many should be removal/draw spells/counters?
Why do I not see Murderous Cut talked about in the couple of pages I've looked through?
Thanks in advance, hope to be making people concede to Rev's in no time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fun is subjective; for some people it's Tarmogoyf, for others it's Lightning Bolt or Nephalia Drownyard or Emrakul, and the people who find fun in Past in Flames or Second Sunrise are just as correct as anyone else." u/ThisRedRock
Spreading seas isnt bad, but I feel like there are better cards against tron.
Stony silence is pretty good, far//away is alright, we have hide//seek, bribery, discard spells, etc to play, I don;t think we need to use seas.
Why do I not see Murderous Cut talked about in the couple of pages I've looked through?
when dig through time was legal it was the better delve spell and you can only have so many. Now that it's banned, logic knot is probably better but an argument can be made
Accepted land count varies from 25 to 26 because people have played both. the lower land count was better with 8 fetches and dig through time, I believe the established count will move firmly towards 26 and 6-7 fetches with the banning of dig through time. Murderous cut is strong in midrange decks, but in Esper we have path to exile as our primary removal spell, and logic knot is very strong and important for the deck. I generally feel like victim of night, doom blade, go for the throat, or geth's verdict are better options than murderous cut as additional slot removal, with disfigure if you fear mana dork based decks or delver, and hero's downfall if planeswalkers are a thing in your meta as well.
Spreading Seas isn't bad per se, but stony silence is waaay more impactful in that matchup, and it's also a lot stronger in other matchups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Thanks for all your replies. I'm going to be testing a bunch of options this weekend before I run up a preliminary list, but I will let you guys know what I settle on. This deck really doesn't seem like it needs much to push it over the top. I'm excited to see how it goes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fun is subjective; for some people it's Tarmogoyf, for others it's Lightning Bolt or Nephalia Drownyard or Emrakul, and the people who find fun in Past in Flames or Second Sunrise are just as correct as anyone else." u/ThisRedRock
Hi guys, I've decided I want to move in on a Control archetype, but the hipster in me doesn't like playing UWR. When playing that deck I always wish my burn spells were unconditional removal or counterspells, and Esper Charm is just the sweetest thing going.
I have a couple of questions, and I've yet to scroll through this entire thread.
Is the accepted land count 25 or 26?
Of the remaining 35/34 spells, how many should be removal/draw spells/counters?
Why do I not see Murderous Cut talked about in the couple of pages I've looked through?
Thanks in advance, hope to be making people concede to Rev's in no time.
Considering the grindy format that most believe will emerge from the banning of TC and delver probably plummeting I would suggest these configurations.
26 lands would most likely be standard. The rest of the deck should at least consist of 10 draw spells, 8 counters, 4 spot removal, and 3 mass removal.
Murderous Cut can be a strong 1 of but generally Logic Knot is the best delve spell with out DTT and you also want Think Twice in a bgx/combo format.
Extra tips would be to max out on these cards, cryptic command,esper charm, path to exile, and in my opinion both Think Twice and Spell Snare should be maxed in this format. The best finisher for this deck is probably White Sun's Zenith. I highly recommend 2 Logic Knots. You have about 4 spots that are completely up to player preference and meta but these spots usually consist of cantrips like remand, and shadow of doubt. The flex spots can also consist of more spot removal such as disfigure, and smother. Personally I would take Wafo's GP Boston list since I believe that build is best for the predicted meta and has so many cantrips for consistency.
I still have to decide on a SB, but it's taking shape. I'll be preparing for Affinity and Junk mainly, then some random cards to shore up potential other matchups.
That's pretty early a gifts ungiven deck, which is very different than Esper control. I believe there is another thread devoted to gifts. You're more likely to get better feedback there.
That's pretty early a gifts ungiven deck, which is very different than Esper control. I believe there is another thread devoted to gifts. You're more likely to get better feedback there.
Eh, I figured this early in the format I don't want to be too reactive and the best proactive plan for a blue deck is Gifts. If there's indeed a thread dedicated to Esper Gifts and it's not too much midrange, I'll post there.
I still have to decide on a SB, but it's taking shape. I'll be preparing for Affinity and Junk mainly, then some random cards to shore up potential other matchups.
Gifts is a good approach as well. I would make a lot of adjustments here though it seems a bit unfocused. I would cut cliques main and add Iona to combat burn. Gftt is pretty bad since it is really bad against affinity and tron. Other changes could be made but the reanimator approach is legit since it can give you some free wins against some matchups.
Tasigur could easily be a 1 mana 4/5 body mid game, which is kind of crazy. Seems legit. I might give him a try on cockatrice. If you had him in a deck of 4 think twice and 4 lingering souls it might put your opponent in lose lose situation. Now that I'm thinking about it unburial rites and some fatties could make an interesting midrange deck.
So I'm transitioning from UWR Control to Esper Control because I think it's better placed to be a competitive deck against the Jund/k midrange that we're going to be seeing all over the place now that the meta has shifted, and I'm a firm believer that the likes of Smother, Doom Blade, Murderous Cut and IoK are all better than Bolt, Helix and Electrolyze coming into the new Modern.
That said, I have been working on a decklist and I was wondering if there's anything that I should be doing differently? I'm relatively new to the Esper side of things, so I'm not sure what to value more in this style of play compared to the semi-burn of the UWR lists.
The main choices that might draw a bit of attention are the inclusion of Murderous Cut and Logic Knot. While they do seem like odd-ish choices, with 4 Esper Charm and a large amount of removal spells, the graveyard quickly fills up, meaning that MC and Logic Knot can both be online quite early. Murderous Cut has never let me down, even if I'm delving 3 and casting it for 1B, it's still a hard count in a world where we have to make do with Go for the Throat and Doom Blade a lot of the time.
Logic Knot I feel is also better than Mana Leak in the deck. We want to be running a full 4 Path to Exile, which almost assuredly shuts off our Leaks. Logic Knot mitigates this by having to option to boost it past 3 mana to pay with the use of the graveyard and your full board of mana. Late game threats that anyone tries to resolve are 100% not getting through, and even early game it can be cast as a UU Counterspell by removing 3-4 cards from your graveyard, operating very similarly to Mana Leak.
Both of these Delve cards is why I'm only running 3 Snapcasters in the deck as well. 3 still means that I seem him more than enough, but it nevers means that he's left wanting cards in the yard because of my delving. The 6 delve cards are just simply replacing Dig Through Time in the deck, which already ripped 6 cards away from Snappy whenever it had the chance.
The sideboard is also set up to face a lot of Jund/k and to deal with any Zoo/Affinity match-ups that we might come across. Between the 75 I have 4 sweepers, and Lingering Souls acts as a simple Electrolyze in the Affinity match-up as well.
Is there anything else that I need to change across the board for it all? Feel free to shoot me any suggestions or questions!
So I'm transitioning from UWR Control to Esper Control because I think it's better placed to be a competitive deck against the Jund/k midrange that we're going to be seeing all over the place now that the meta has shifted, and I'm a firm believer that the likes of Smother, Doom Blade, Murderous Cut and IoK are all better than Bolt, Helix and Electrolyze coming into the new Modern.
That said, I have been working on a decklist and I was wondering if there's anything that I should be doing differently? I'm relatively new to the Esper side of things, so I'm not sure what to value more in this style of play compared to the semi-burn of the UWR lists.
The main choices that might draw a bit of attention are the inclusion of Murderous Cut and Logic Knot. While they do seem like odd-ish choices, with 4 Esper Charm and a large amount of removal spells, the graveyard quickly fills up, meaning that MC and Logic Knot can both be online quite early. Murderous Cut has never let me down, even if I'm delving 3 and casting it for 1B, it's still a hard count in a world where we have to make do with Go for the Throat and Doom Blade a lot of the time.
Logic Knot I feel is also better than Mana Leak in the deck. We want to be running a full 4 Path to Exile, which almost assuredly shuts off our Leaks. Logic Knot mitigates this by having to option to boost it past 3 mana to pay with the use of the graveyard and your full board of mana. Late game threats that anyone tries to resolve are 100% not getting through, and even early game it can be cast as a UU Counterspell by removing 3-4 cards from your graveyard, operating very similarly to Mana Leak.
Both of these Delve cards is why I'm only running 3 Snapcasters in the deck as well. 3 still means that I seem him more than enough, but it nevers means that he's left wanting cards in the yard because of my delving. The 6 delve cards are just simply replacing Dig Through Time in the deck, which already ripped 6 cards away from Snappy whenever it had the chance.
The sideboard is also set up to face a lot of Jund/k and to deal with any Zoo/Affinity match-ups that we might come across. Between the 75 I have 4 sweepers, and Lingering Souls acts as a simple Electrolyze in the Affinity match-up as well.
Is there anything else that I need to change across the board for it all? Feel free to shoot me any suggestions or questions!
Logic Knot has been established to be the best 2 mana counter for this deck quite some time ago so it is not really strange.
What is different is the 4 copies of IOK which I would suggest you move to the sideboard since discard is really bad in control deck mainboards. You should play 4 copies of Cryptic Command and maybe max out of Think Twice. I do not know about Murderous Cut but it could be good. I would suggest adding White Sun's Zenith since it is instant speed and bgx cannot beat it. I might also max out of spell snare since affinity and bgx run a lot of important 2 drops and most counterspells in combo and other control decks cost 2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It is really good from my experience. You need other disruptive elements to even to stall until you find it and make sure karn does not stick. Once you cast the Bribery the game is prrtty much won for you. Like I said earlier clique will be one of the most important cards in the sideboard along with targetted discard in my humble opinion.
If all your answers lineup with their threats then yes especially if you have discard to shuffle their emrakul to their deck. The matchup will always be pretty bad but Bribery at least gives you a way to steal trons inevitability but the problem is that having all the right answers to so many must answer cards until you draw the bribery is still really bard. This gets much worse when it is uw tron that can fight back with their own countermagic.
I do see tron being the biggest issue for control, that and affinity with the nuts will usually be able to just run us over, even if we wrath on turn 4, damage is often done.
nonetheless, I am happy for the meta shift, control wise. I just wish we got our ancestral visions unbanned.
What are you suggesting against Emrakul then?
discard and pressure: thoughtseize and/or vendilion clique and/or geist of saint traft
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I have a couple of questions, and I've yet to scroll through this entire thread.
Is the accepted land count 25 or 26?
Of the remaining 35/34 spells, how many should be removal/draw spells/counters?
Why do I not see Murderous Cut talked about in the couple of pages I've looked through?
Thanks in advance, hope to be making people concede to Rev's in no time.
u/ThisRedRock
Stony silence is pretty good, far//away is alright, we have hide//seek, bribery, discard spells, etc to play, I don;t think we need to use seas.
when dig through time was legal it was the better delve spell and you can only have so many. Now that it's banned, logic knot is probably better but an argument can be made
Spreading Seas isn't bad per se, but stony silence is waaay more impactful in that matchup, and it's also a lot stronger in other matchups.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
u/ThisRedRock
Considering the grindy format that most believe will emerge from the banning of TC and delver probably plummeting I would suggest these configurations.
26 lands would most likely be standard. The rest of the deck should at least consist of 10 draw spells, 8 counters, 4 spot removal, and 3 mass removal.
Murderous Cut can be a strong 1 of but generally Logic Knot is the best delve spell with out DTT and you also want Think Twice in a bgx/combo format.
Extra tips would be to max out on these cards, cryptic command,esper charm, path to exile, and in my opinion both Think Twice and Spell Snare should be maxed in this format. The best finisher for this deck is probably White Sun's Zenith. I highly recommend 2 Logic Knots. You have about 4 spots that are completely up to player preference and meta but these spots usually consist of cantrips like remand, and shadow of doubt. The flex spots can also consist of more spot removal such as disfigure, and smother. Personally I would take Wafo's GP Boston list since I believe that build is best for the predicted meta and has so many cantrips for consistency.
The OP in this Reddit thread mentions Flashfreeze, which I had forgotten about, and it could be very relevant in the new meta. I added 1 to my SB.
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
1 Entreat the Angels
Spells
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Noxious Revival
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
1 Cryptic Command
3 Path to Exile
2 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
1 Terminus
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Esper Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Vedalken Shackles
Manabase
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tectonic Edge
I still have to decide on a SB, but it's taking shape. I'll be preparing for Affinity and Junk mainly, then some random cards to shore up potential other matchups.
Eh, I figured this early in the format I don't want to be too reactive and the best proactive plan for a blue deck is Gifts. If there's indeed a thread dedicated to Esper Gifts and it's not too much midrange, I'll post there.
Gifts is a good approach as well. I would make a lot of adjustments here though it seems a bit unfocused. I would cut cliques main and add Iona to combat burn. Gftt is pretty bad since it is really bad against affinity and tron. Other changes could be made but the reanimator approach is legit since it can give you some free wins against some matchups.
That said, I have been working on a decklist and I was wondering if there's anything that I should be doing differently? I'm relatively new to the Esper side of things, so I'm not sure what to value more in this style of play compared to the semi-burn of the UWR lists.
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grave Titan
Spells - 29
4 Esper Charm
3 Logic Knot
2 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
2 Smother
3 Spell Snare
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Think Twice
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Watery Grave
2 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Flashfreeze
3 Lingering Souls
1 Negate
3 Thoughtseize
1 Wrath of God
The main choices that might draw a bit of attention are the inclusion of Murderous Cut and Logic Knot. While they do seem like odd-ish choices, with 4 Esper Charm and a large amount of removal spells, the graveyard quickly fills up, meaning that MC and Logic Knot can both be online quite early. Murderous Cut has never let me down, even if I'm delving 3 and casting it for 1B, it's still a hard count in a world where we have to make do with Go for the Throat and Doom Blade a lot of the time.
Logic Knot I feel is also better than Mana Leak in the deck. We want to be running a full 4 Path to Exile, which almost assuredly shuts off our Leaks. Logic Knot mitigates this by having to option to boost it past 3 mana to pay with the use of the graveyard and your full board of mana. Late game threats that anyone tries to resolve are 100% not getting through, and even early game it can be cast as a UU Counterspell by removing 3-4 cards from your graveyard, operating very similarly to Mana Leak.
Both of these Delve cards is why I'm only running 3 Snapcasters in the deck as well. 3 still means that I seem him more than enough, but it nevers means that he's left wanting cards in the yard because of my delving. The 6 delve cards are just simply replacing Dig Through Time in the deck, which already ripped 6 cards away from Snappy whenever it had the chance.
The sideboard is also set up to face a lot of Jund/k and to deal with any Zoo/Affinity match-ups that we might come across. Between the 75 I have 4 sweepers, and Lingering Souls acts as a simple Electrolyze in the Affinity match-up as well.
Is there anything else that I need to change across the board for it all? Feel free to shoot me any suggestions or questions!
WUB-Esper Control-WUB
UUU-Merfolk-UUU
It's probably pretty obvious that I'm a big fan of blue.
Logic Knot has been established to be the best 2 mana counter for this deck quite some time ago so it is not really strange.
What is different is the 4 copies of IOK which I would suggest you move to the sideboard since discard is really bad in control deck mainboards. You should play 4 copies of Cryptic Command and maybe max out of Think Twice. I do not know about Murderous Cut but it could be good. I would suggest adding White Sun's Zenith since it is instant speed and bgx cannot beat it. I might also max out of spell snare since affinity and bgx run a lot of important 2 drops and most counterspells in combo and other control decks cost 2.