Fair enough, it's an interesting exercise. I call it sub par because I see things which can't possibly be correct, like only 3 ramp spells (and wasting SB slots on more ramp), only 2 scapeshift, only 1 cryptic, basically no dig spells and very few cantripping spells. I agree that some stuff scapeshift runs sucks (and coming from mostly Legacy I hate serum visions so much for being as bad as it is), but I just don't see how it can really operate as well or better than a stock list than can squeeze in some gifts (and I can understand wanting that sweet, sweet gifts action). It has more control, but a vastly harder time keeping gassed up and hitting the kill conditions.
I've been tormented with the concept that combo ritual gifts can't be fast enough, and I'm working on a list that can run down control, out race combo and aggro, evade both graveyard hate and hatebears, and still come out on top. The first step to this was making it a reactive deck. In essence, never let the opponent deal with you on their terms. If they can't put pressure, you can wait. If they can, they likely can't interact with you as well, giving you more opportunities to combo out. This means cutting merchant scroll to a one or two of. It's too slow. I'd rather be casting a 2 mana dig spell at the end of their T2 than at sorcery speed, giving them information about gifts.
I'll do some playtests, get a basic list together and post it with my findings. Any suggestions as I start constructing the deck? Again, I'm going for speed as a priority. I'm planning on comboing T4 every game. After an EOT T3 gifts as a result of a pyretic or desperate ritual, or a goblin electromancer. Gitaxian Probe could be good for dealing with control, in addition to counting storm to get to that crucial number to kill.
I have been thinking in Eco's points for the process. It does look like a subpar Scapeshift list, and this triggered a thought in my head: the method adds a lot of noise and we need to fine tune-it to a decent, cohesive plan.
Point 1: The exercise I used to construct the deck is not exempt from statistical noise. That means my method will add some cards that should not be there. They're tokens from previous thoughts and incarnations of the deck and should be removed.
Point 2: Scapeshifting into victory is not our main plan. Iona (or another unavoidable fatty) should be plan A. Scapeshift is there for the inevitable grindy matchups, where we try to card advantage our way into the late game and just win with a good topdeck. This means we want to reduce as much as possible our bad topdecks, such as Search for Tomorrow.
So lets go with changes:
Search for Tomorrow: as great as this is as a turn one play, it sucks topdecking one lategame or playing two of these. -3. Sakura-Tribe Elder: the same argument can be made for Steve. There's just no room for him, as good as he may be against Jund. This frees sideboard space into useful stuff. -3 Treasure Cruise: The card is awesome and def needs testing, but we want instant speed. I'll trade these for DTTs. -2.
Dig Through Time: Best Impulse effect ever? Hell yeah. +4 in the main. Cryptic Command: I agree with the miser Command being subpar. Adding another one. +1
Scapeshift: The double green on this card makes me wanna cry. Since we are running 4 DTTs now, I just want one. -1 mainboard -1 sb. Plains: With the loss of SfT and Steve, I don't really have uses for you. Trading you for a Flooded Grove.
Dig Through Time allows me to run more lands, as the Impulse effect will just toss those pesky bad topdecks to the bottom. I'm adding another Flooded Grove.
We still have one extra slot. I want to put Inferno Titan or just go greedy and go Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. We actually have several big-dumb creatures available to try in this slot, each for a specific matchup. I just can't see Jeskai or Delver coming back from big ol Jin. - This is the one that needs some serious playtesting. Resolving one against control with counter backup means game as well. Expect overwhelming graveyard hate g2 against any deck once you resolve one of these. Actually, scratch that. I just realized I'm running only one Snapcaster Mage.
Now, the Sideboard.
We have 4 new slots!
Since we are heavy on the GY plan game 1 to win, even with a plan B we should have some options to play G2 and avoid the hate. We have 4 new sideboard slots, and I have just the idea. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Crazy good, specially if you're draw-go. +1. Mystical Teachings: You know what's very good with Flash creatures, instants and Teferi and grindy matchups? This big boy. +3.
I want to make some room for more one-ofs as game2 we play some mystical teachings action. Combust: this should be just one. -1. Electrolyze: same here. -1. Swan Song: I think we are running enough permission in the main board and there's hardly a matchup where I would want more of these. If anythign, i would want more card advantage. -2
This opens 3 slots.
Ancient Grudge - +1. I mean, we are a Gifts list with Mystical Teachings backup and we do run RG. This is godly vs Robots. Inferno Titan - +1. Should be Jin-Gitaxias here if we are playing him in the maindeck. Wurmcoil Engine - +1. Same reasoning as above. It could actually just go mainboard. Into the Roil - +1. I just love this card and we might need it against Leylines and whatnot. Extra bounce is good.
Testing needs to be done to properly assess the efficiency of the skewed manabase and miser Scapeshift, but I think this one looks better than the first one, right Eco?
Also, I'll be working in a Mystical Teachings/Forbidden Alchemist Grixis list with the Teferi/Beatdown plan in the future.
Cristicism, thoughts and chatter are welcome. Don't let this thread die!
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On Joking101: If you want that sweet T4 consistent kill, then you were on the right track with that first Electromancer list. Not sure about Gitaxian Probe, but if you want to play Dig Through Time and Past in Flames I think Forbidden Alchemy is just great adding consistency and redundancy for the game.
You said you could consistently put around 9 mana up. Are you using Epic Experiment?
Also, if you are purely into speed, think Simian Spirit Guide. He's a net+1 card that can't be used by Past in Flames, but boy, he is fast! It also fuels that EOT T3 Gifts like a champ without the need to burn one of your sweet sweet rituals.
While I love some fast consistent combos, I also love to play draw-go. That's why I went in a more control route. I think you have a difficult game post-sb with a linear approach, but after figuring your maindeck this can be looked into further.
Joking: Simply put, if your aim is to go off as fast as possible, this is the wrong deck to do it with. I would suggest a more classic storm list (optionally with gifts), or something more boring like Splinter Twin. The entire point of Ritual Gifts and the combo-control archetype is not speed, it is to control the early game and then combo off for the kill with some protection when the coast is clear (turn 5-6+). In addition, the constraints around the kill after gifts require certain cards in hand and some lands (commonly something like 5 lands plus a ritual plus a manamorphose or another ritual). As a result, going off on turn 4 after burning a ritual on gifts will be very hard without dedicating a lot of the deck to rituals, which is more commonly known as a stock UR storm deck.
Necronecro: I agree, the list looks vastly improved, mostly because it looks a lot less like a Frankenstein's monster. However, I have a few major issues with it:
1)The scapeshift plan is bad. It requires you to make GG with no other green cards maindeck, and the card itself is a brick unless you have 7+ lands. It also requires you run Valakuts, which suck. In addition, attempting to use it as a finisher in a long grindy game makes the risk of drawing too many mountains to kill a very real possibility. Scapeshift should either be plan A or dropped.
2) The deck leans incredibly heavily on the unburial rites plan, which presents glaring flaws:
-Only 3 gifts must be a mistake, as it is the key (only) enabler of your win condition.
-Iona is not always an auto-win, and is therefore not sufficient. Elesh Norn is needed at a minimum.
-You have only 2 izzet charms to discard any part of the combo you draw, which can cause you to just lose to your own deck.
-You are hilariously vulnerable to graveyard hate. The scapeshift plan is not sufficient, and you can't fall back on snapcaster/manland beats, or anything else.
3) A teachings board seems very questionable. I don't have much experience playing with teachings, but it seems a very slow method of getting anti-hate. Teachings -> Teferi -> Bomb is reasonably solid, but very slow, and all your other teachings targets are very unexciting (and don't really help fix bad matchups).
If we drop the Scapeshift kill, you're left with a RUw Gifts control/combo deck. This could be developed in a number of ways:
-Add more white. Play Path to Exile, more snapcasters, sphinx rev, colonnades, etc. Essentially become a RUW control deck with gifts.
-Add black, and play maybe teachings maindeck. This gives hand disruption, better quality removal, creeping tar pit, Teferi + Bomb as a maindeck win condition.
-Cut red, add White and Black: become 4c gifts or Esper Gifts.
Basically, I feel like the deck has a number of cool directions it could take, but they are ultimately all (very different) gifts control decks that run the unbural rites combo. I do not think there is a future the for the scpaeshift kill (except as a Scapeshift list that plays gifts and rites combo (maybe in the sideboard?)), and RUgw doesn't do enough to justify not splashing colours/changing the base.
Also, the deck is moving very far away from anything resembling ritual gifts, so if you want to continue this line of discussion, another thread (or PMs) might be better.
I also agree that Scapeshift is just unnecessary here. The deck already has a lot it needs to accomplish, and splitting up a already incredibly tight list between 3 combos seems like it could backfire pretty easily. Just drawing the wrong pieces at the wrong time. Also you're trying to play Scapeshift with no mana ramp, which just seems like a terrible idea.
I do think you can get away with running Rites combo maindeck though. I actually have played with it maindeck on and off for a while, and it can be nice to have a much easier combo to play in the main, as you can race to Iona/ Elesh pretty easily, and that alone will get you some free wins. Again though, you end up diluting the storm combo and the control aspects so it's tough to decide if it's worth it. Ultimately I decided against it, on the logic that it's also vulnerable to grave hate, and an alt win that loses to the same hate as the main win seems kinda bad.
If winning on turn 4 is what you wanna be doing, you can accomplish that much easier with Search for Tomorrow, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Rituals are just a dead card 95 percent of the time in this deck, but you still want to be building your mana, and accelerating. As Eco said though, ramping into a super early kill isn't really what this deck is trying to do. While yes the t4 win is possible, you are more so trying to ensure a win t5-7. Unlike other all-in combo decks, the idea here is that you can beat out whatever disruption your facing and still get the win.
This what I have been playing most recently. It's pretty similar to the last list I posted.
So I made room to squeeze in 1 Dig Through Time to test it out, but I've only played a few games with this list and haven't actually cast it yet, so I'm still not sure how it's going to be. I have also been on the fence with Merchant Scroll, but we just honestly don't have a better option. The available cantrips are terrible. I suppose you could just run 4 Peer Through Depths instead and that could work out. If we had Impulse I would probably play that, Serum Visions, and Dig, and then maybe cut some ramp. but for what we have available to us, I don't see a better option really.
This list feels insanely tight though. At least the shell. The control package is always changing, and I can never decide between sweepers or spot removal, but the shell seems on point. Deciding on the right number of ramp spells has also been difficult. I like the sweepers because it gives you a sweet Gifts package, but against a deck like Ascendancy Storm, you want the spot removal a lot more.
I want to be able to say there's a stock list to grab, but when it comes do it, the control package you run seems purely meta dependent. You only have so many available slots, you can't realistically answer everything. My thinking behind going back to the sweepers is that they can be amazing for stabilizing in the midgame, and if it comes down to it you still have Izzet Charm and Electrolyze, and even sometimes Echoing Truth to ping Hatebears if necessary. The thing is, sometimes that whole package can be just a little too slow. So again it comes down to meta dependence.
The main takeaway from this list though is how tight the combo package is. You don't need or want a ton of Rituals, and other chaff. What I'm running here is the bare minimum amount of combo pieces possible. What this leaves us with is 5 "dead" cards. Channel the Suns, Pyretic Ritual, Mana Seism, and both Past in Flames are cards that don't really do anything outside the combo, so you don't actually want to draw more than 1-2 of them throughout the entire game. Drawing multiples will leave you unable to do a whole lot, so shrinking the combo package down to it's bare minimum I think is essential. Outside of those 5 cards though, everything else is playable, and out of the board the Rituals can sometimes be useful for ramping into Titan or Wurm.
I agree with Scapshift ust screwing with the manabase and not doing much for you. Double g stings.
what I'm trying to build is a deck with close to no dead cards in hand, playing mostly draw-go. The current proposed metagame tends to be unforgiving to decks without cheap answers and disruption and I just can't wrap my head around playing Merchant Scroll. Search for Tomorrow worries me as well. How do you deal with multiples? Is that card even good beyond the first and not on turn 1?
If what you say is right about just running 5 pieces of combo, I think we can do a Forbidden Alchemy/Teachings list. I'll try to build something when I have free time (last semester of college +works).
posting from my phone, so pardon the templating.
Scroll is very mediocre, but it fetches Gifts (better than, say, peer through depths) and can get bounce. I'm also thinking that scrolling for Pact of Negation might be useful for protection, to emulate scroll for Force. But not being able to find Force/Ancestral/Chain of vapour (as a storm engine) really makes it suck.
Search works fine in Scapeshift because it's a great turn 1 play (since it's one of the few T1 plays), and for multiples you can play them when you have 4-5 lands to leave mana open. They are such a good T1 play it's worth it, and the more ramp you play, the more stuff you can do.
I think it would make most sense to start off looking at the 4c gifts thread and Teachings thread (hopefully they've tested gifts), and go from there. No need to reinvent the wheel when people have worked on these very similar decks already.
Oh, no no. I'm talking about Rites Gifts win-con with Mystical Teachings. If we can reduce it to 5 cards like Hazanko advocates, Teachings doubles in function as it can just flashback for Pyretic/Desperate Ritual once the game is controlled.
I'll have a list in due time, you`ll see. Then you will criticize the sh** out of it and I'll tweak the deck and we have a lean mean Ritual Gifts machine
PS: Don't want to sound offensive, I love your criticism. Please bring more.
I never smile's lists from the old thread were primarily Teachings based, so it would probably be a good idea to check them out as a base. I think it was mostly abandoned when you couldn't teachings for seething song once it got banned.
Teachings in my experience is just too slow. Like Eco said, not being able to Teachings for Seething Song(or any decent Ritual) makes it just not worth it anymore. 4 mana is a lot for a tutor, even at instant speed. I love how it works with Teferi and sideboard fatties, but I'm convinced it's just too slow.
I wish there was something better than Merchant Scroll, but everytime I try to change it to something more cantrips focused, I never like how it works out. Merchant Scroll can find us everything we need; Gifts Ungiven, Counterspells, and Bounce/ Removal, and now we can even fetch Dig Through Time with it.
I have been thinking about going all in on a Dig Through Time-Cantrip suite, and maybe dropping the mana ramp.. Maybe something like..
More of a focus on being able to have a lot of play through every stage of the game, and filling the grave faster for Dig Through Time. But without the ramp, you're no longer able to win t4, and have to use your cantrips to make sure you find all the lands you need. If Peer Through Depths was Impulse, I would feel better about a plan like this though.
As far as Search for Tomorrow past t1, I'll admit it's not always awesome using 3 mana to ramp, but at least the land comes into play untapped. After playing the deck a bunch without the ramp, I really do think it runs more consistently with the ramp. Being able to Gifts t3 for the t4 win can be huge, and also the biggest problem this deck has had in the past is finding all the land drops you need. You need 5-6 lands in play to combo off, and that can mean not winning till turn 6 or even t7-8-9 if you miss a land drop or 2. The mana ramp makes sure we get the lands we need. And it also helps us ramp into our fatties from the sideboard. It's also worth noting that if we have enough lands in play we can combo of with just 1 of the combo pieces in our hand, rather than 2.
I don't think the 5c Gifts thread has a whole lot to offer as the black splash is pretty huge to them. They are all about Iona, Lingering Souls, Loam combos with Gifts, and also more focused on the Rites combo. Like I said before you can get away with Rites combo in this deck(if you wanna splash another color) but having 2 combos that are both susceptible to the same hate doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Here is an n=30 play test on cockatrice. The estimated win proportion is 66% with an error bound of 9% with 95% confidence.
Win: 20 loss:10
Ur (though remand) t5 win
3 color doran t4 empty the warrens (Mulligan to 6, turn 1 inquisition turn 2 thoughtseize)
Jund t7 win ( remand, beat thoughtseize ooze,)
Scapeshift lose
Scapeshift lose (spellskite) (g2)
Junk win (slaughter pact on electormancer mid combo after sacrificing all my lands to mana seism)
Tron loss (top deck pyroclasm after making 30 goblins turn 3 )
Tron win (twin) (g2)
Tron win (x=13 epic experiement, electromancer in play)
Junk lose (thoughtseize, halimar depths + 2 serum visions no action)
Delver win (though remand electormancer in play)
Delver (win, opp mana screwed g2 eidolon)
Delver (lose g2)
4 color delver loss (spell pierce, snapcaster)
4 color delver win (g2 twin)
4 Color delver win (twin)
Enduring idea (win turn 3, turn 2 electromancer)
Enduring ideal lose (curse of exhaustion)
Enduring idea win with twin (ideal, blind obedience)
4 color nivix Cyclopes combo (loss)
4 color nivix Cyclopes combo (win)
4 cc super friends win (turn 3 gifts turn 4 win)
4 cc super friends win (g2 turn 4 gifts into win, has path, win two turns later)
Burn loss (eidolon)
Burn loss (eidolon)
Burn win(remand eidolon)
Delver win (grapeshot a flipped delver, unflipped delver, and monastery swiftspear on turn 3)
Mill win mill win (g2 twin, surgical on exarch) bw tokens (win) bw tokens (g2, win, leyline of sancity)
Here is a 3-0 1st place report from another FNM.
Round 1: Merfolk
He tapped out for a lord of atlantis on his turn 4 after I remanded it, played a ritual into gifts ungiven and got mana seism, 2 rituals and a past in flames. He have me the 2 rituals and I cast electromancer and won. Game 2 I sideboarded twin in. He led with cursecatcher cursecatcher. I played an exarch eot and on my turn cast pyretic ritual which he cursecatched, and cast splinter twin with zero mana floating. Instead of countering it he let it resolve and I killed him. Then he complained all night about how unfair the deck was. To be fair he was dead on the next turn anyways because I was going to ritual into kiki jiki.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2:bw Tokens
He led with inquisition, then I probed and saw double tidehollow and zealous persecution. His inqusition took epic experiment. His tidehollows took gifts and electormancer. I was able to stick double electormancer but the empty the warren would do nothing as long as he had persecusion. I forced him to use it after making 6 goblins. He pathed both electromancers and I could not draw anything relevant. The next game I led with halimar depths and he had no turn 1 play. I played electormancer turn 2 and he played tidehollow taking gifts. I attacked with electromancer and he allowed it, then I played a second electromancer (drawing them all night it seems...) I started attacking for 4 every turn. Eventually he was at 8 and I killed him by chaining cantrips into a grapeshot remand grapeshot In the last game he had a tidehollow and two lingering souls tokens buffed by an enchantment. I grapeshot all his creatures, got a gifts back and cast it to kill him on the next turn when he tapped out for elspeth.
2-0(4-1)
Round 3: Goblins
He mulliganed to 4 game 1, not much to see here. I sandbagged the electormancer so I could win through bolt. I won on turn 4. In the second game he got me to 1. I had a turn 2 empty for 6 goblins that traded with his team. I cast a gifts turn 6 at 1 life and won on the next turn with mana seism, pif, ritual increasing vengence while holding epic experiment.
3-0 (6-1)
I got a polluted delta out of it with store credit so it was overall a good night.
Cool report A Boss. It's really interesting to me to see so many variations of this deck. I think it shows the potential of the combo, and Gifts in storm. Your list looks really interesting because your running maindeck Empty, Electromancer, and Epic Experiment. I do really like the idea of running Electromancer in the deck though. He makes really nice Ritual->Gifts loops, and can make t2-3 wins possible which is crazy. The trade off is that you have to play more rituals main deck to get the most of him, and you have to actually resolve, and stick him as well. But he is a beast when he works.
It makes me think whether i should start going more in that direction, of Electromancer-Ritual-Gifts loops, or the other options being, a cantrip-delve-tempo style, or a more control oriented style.
So i guess looking at what needs to be in the deck in order to combo(without an engine like Pyromancer Ascension, or Goblin Electromancer) we can break it down to this
So a total of 10 cards, that make the combo work. With 22 lands that leaves 28 slots open. We need only 2 other things, a way to find Gifts and some combo pieces, and a way to protect us and our combo. What we need to do is figure out the best way to use those 28 slots...
What i see is 3 paths which you can take.
- The classic, Combo/Control style
-A Tempo/Combo-Delve focused style
-Engine based combo(Electromancer, Cloud Key, Pyromancer Ascension)
What i can't decide is which is the most efficient style. Or even if there's something else i'm not seeing all together. I guess the question i'm asking is, What do we do with those 28 slots?
Don't forget Increasing Vengeance. I think the whole point of playing Gifts in this deck is using those slots to gear your deck in the most controllish way possible, so you need very few cards apart from Gifts to go off. If you are not doing that, then you'd probably be better playing UR Pyromancer Ascension, that deck is pretty damn fast and quite consistent. Though I doubt it's a viable deck with Burn getting so much play and them running 4 Eidolon of the Great Revel maindeck (note that burn is not an easy matchup for this builds either). Basically, if you are playing Gifts in your storm deck, you are better of being absolutely dedicated to it IMHO. If not, it's just going to be a great value card that may hinder you from going off early, and it will add only in redundancy but won't let you play a protective game.
In my experience with the deck, ever since the banning of Seething Song, it always felt like a turn slower than the rest of the format. I've won a lot of matches after the ban, but I assure you that more than half of them were due to my opponents not having a clue what I was doing. Anytime I played against really good players, they'd just wreck me. When I got paired against aggro decks, they would kill me the turn before I went off 80% of the time. Song allowed you to jump from 5 mana to 15 with just the Song and Vengeance in hand (fork, with fork mana flashback fork, there you went). That made it so you really needed much less in hand to go off from a single Gifts, and drawing into Song was pretty strong. Nowadays, you need a Ritual, a 5th land and a Manamorphose/another ritual in hand to go off turn 5. And you are playing a third color just for the mediocre Song replacement. This hinders Blood Moon as a sideboard plan and adds inconsistency to a deck that wants potentially RRR when it's going off and G and U for Channel the Suns and Gifts.
It's a very fun deck though, and the beautiful concept around it's game plan makes it one of my favorite decks. Against slow decks, you always stand a chance as you get to play very powerful cards, and the matches end up being very interactive when you are not burned down fastly. Plus seeing your opponents face while you are charging a storage land is an irreplaceable feeling (and twice my opponents asked the judge if Merchant Scroll was modern legal, it was pretty funny)
And it's funny because i get the Merchant Scroll question a lot too. A lot of people forget about that card. Not to mention the 8th edition version is hideous so i play with Homelands.
I actually agree with everything you're saying. The deck has it's flaws but the concept, the combo, and the gameplay are just too much fun. Beyond that though, i do see potential. The deck doesn't feel like a complete fish out of water, and i have a decent amount of success playing with it. Like any combo deck though, there are certainly games i just get blown out, either from hate, or just the deck folding to itself.
Maybe we won't be tier 1 without a proper Seething Song replacement, but what i want to do at least, is find the best possible deck we can be playing. Everyone who's been playing this deck all have pretty different looking lists. Unfortunately, I feel like development is pretty glacial with only a few people playing and testing totally different lists.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
The consensus on the Storm Boards has been that the way to go with this deck is a TinFins-style Griselbrand engine using Rites, but without ramp the earliest it can win is turn six. I personally think that, since we don't have TinFins's speed (obviously no deck in Modern can have TinFins's speed), the URx Control shell with the combo finish is the way to go. I'm slowly putting this deck together on paper, but getting the shocks and fetches is a real strain on my budget so it's been slow.
I've recently been testing this deck. Its an intriguing and odd deck. In all the games I play I feel like I'm straddling the line between impotency and power. Some games you feel like you literally can't lose, others you get slapped silly.
I've been using the bog-standard list with the 1 of DTT.
I have a few thoughts. I've found that Volcanic Fallout is probably a better Pyroclasm. It gets stuff off the board, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and at instant speed. It costs an additional mana (double red at that) but, aside from ramp, all the deck wants to be doing early game is controlling the board. There aren't very many threats on turn 2 that we have to take out that turn or lose. Also it is more insurance vs Pestermite combo for Twin. Granted, the 2 damage to your face could be relevant versus burn, and the extra cmc slightly more painful, so maybe it isn't worth it after all.
I've been tinkering around with alternate wincons. So far I've come up stumped. Epic Experiment requires far more ramp to be consistent than this deck comfortably provides, not to mention we don't cantrip/ritual as much as UR Storm does, so we have far more blanks. Other X-spells, fireball/Debt/etc, suffer from the same mana limitations as well as being harder to search up. Creatures suffer from the same lack of tutoring(one of the main strengths) and are vulnerable to removal the deck normally blanks. I would feel much more comfortable if we could find a 5-card or so side board package that provides a fighting chance versus graveyard hate. I've recently been running a few rituals and an empty the warrens but Delver has increased the amount of pyroclasm/Anger of the Gods/electrickery in the meta making that package far weaker. The Twin package is interesting but it leaves you without space for hate such as Hurkyl's or Torpor. I did a real jank 1 of Emrakul that stole a few games, but it doesn't play around GY hate and the only way to consistently get Emrakul is to use DTT, and even then its not 90%. It just seems that Gifts main strength is the dumping 2 of the cards into the GY. If instead those cards get exiled, Gifts is far less of a card. Perhaps we run more boomerangs to get the GY hate off the board? It would slow the deck down even more, though.
Dig Through Time is an allstar in the deck, so far. Delving 6 cards hasn't been a huge issue in the deck, we have enough fetches/removal/ramp to allow for a t3/t4 2-4cmc DTT. Helps a lot if you're sitting with 1 or no combo pieces in hand. Merchant Scroll being able to tutor for it has saved me from a couple of defeats. I'm not sure we want more than 1, but I think it has a definite place.
I really feel that, if we're sticking with the consistent gifts package, the deck should stay as combo/control. Other decks such as Ascendancy/UR Storm are quicker but fold more easily to hate. Speeding up this deck would be useful, but I don't think you can speed it up while justifying space for Gifts. Tempo is interesting, but would it be better than a tempo-delver deck? I'm not sure how it would even look.
Volcanic Fallout is an excellent card, the only times I lost with this deck to UWR was when they were playing Geist of Saint Traft. If they don't clock you for real, you can just build a handful of efficient counters and go off in the face of their counters, and storage lands pretty much demand Tectonic Edge from them (I once even made a Gifts pile with 3 storage lands and another Gifts against control, and could build up enough mana to go off pretty hard). Fallout is even better now. Eventhough, for tutoring purposes, I would run 1 Fallout, 1 Pyroclasm and 1 Anger of the Gods/Engineered Explosives so you can Gifts for the inevitable sweeper.
The last time I played I was running Lightning Bolts, and sometimes drawing 2 of them early game allowed me to go off with Increasing Vengeanced Bolts and a tiny Grapeshot, and I think I recall a couple of times where that would let me win in some spots where the "big Kill" (forked Channel the Suns for the Grape-Remand-Grape thingy) wasn't possible. Given how good Bolt is in the format with Delver of Secrets and Eidolon of the Great Revel, I think it could be a good idea to be running a playset maindeck. I used a Snapcaster Mage too, so I could sometimes go on controlling the board in the same way most UR modern decks can. My maindeck was something like:
The Flame Slash opened up space for fine defensive piles (you could go with Bolt, Slash, Snapcaster, Electrolyze). I wasn't playing red sweepers maindeck, but at the time Delver decks didn't get that much play.
I'd definitely would try to find space for 1 Dig Through Time: that card has to be bonkers in this deck provided you can use it without the need to exile business spells. Some people tried builds with Serum Visions, and maybe a build including those could support a couple more DTT. Damn, I want to play this deck again I'll be trying it the next time I get to go to a small tournament, though it may be a while til that.
PS: I recall that even with Seething Song in the format, LegitKarona (the creator of this deck version) was running Unburial Rites + Griselbrand as you could reanimate him easily turn 4 with a turn 3 Gifts, and that would give you enough gas to Storm them out the next turn (plus a board presence not to be laughed about: some decks just fold to the 7/7 lifelinker). I tested it a bit and didn't like it that much, as drawing one of the pieces often involved Merchant Scrolling for Izzet Charm if you wanted to go that way, or having a dead card in hand (that version might have run more Izzet Charm though; I think it was in the Deathrite Shaman era. Also, the deck wasn't running green at that point, so the white splash was easier; I strongly discourage running 4 colors in this deck). I could definitely see it as a sideboard plan though, as having one Hallowed Fountain in your deck isn't likely to ruin your Game 1 if you don't need to fetch it, and it would be a nice backup plan in case you get blown out by some hate card you weren't expecting or just Slaughter Games naming Grapeshot (nobody is likely to leave Path to Exile or Terminate in against us)
PS2: I haven't played with Keranos, God of Storms at all. It could be atrociously good in some matchups as an easy to cast plan B. Can't Spell Pierce that one for sure, and he is pretty reliable as way to dominate the board/bury your opponent in card advantage from what I've heard. Another card I'd try, though it might need a major rebuild of the manabase in my case at least, is Vedalken Shackles. Creature decks that aren't prepared for it rarely can win against it. Hell, I think this deck could even stretch to playing Blood Moon in the sideboard. I strongly believe that attacking the game from many angles is what we want to be doing, as preparing against hate is difficult, will slow us down, and doesn't always work.
The consensus on the Storm Boards has been that the way to go with this deck is a TinFins-style Griselbrand engine using Rites, but without ramp the earliest it can win is turn six. I personally think that, since we don't have TinFins's speed (obviously no deck in Modern can have TinFins's speed), the URx Control shell with the combo finish is the way to go. I'm slowly putting this deck together on paper, but getting the shocks and fetches is a real strain on my budget so it's been slow.
FYI that wasn't ever really a consensus, just like one guy's idea a year and a half ago. But yeah, it's probably not really viable: if you want tin-fins style, there is a "Griselbanned" modern deck elsewhere.
Unburial rites + Griz (or any other common rites targets) is not a good sideboard plan at all because it loses to GY hate, which is the precise hate that comes in against us already. Keranos seems like a pretty reasonable idea (maybe even combined with teachings + teferi?)
I don't have a whole lot of time for a better response right now, but i do have a few questions.
How's everyone feel about the ramp in the deck? I can't decide if it's worth it or not. In testing it feels good though. One of the biggest problems the deck had before was getting to that 5th land.
This is my most recent list. It feels pretty awesome in testing. Dig Through Time is amazing. Every time that card resolves it does so much work. Being Scroll-able is awesome too.
I don't know if Keranos is the answer we're looking for. I play him SB in my Delver deck and he's a house there. But he's just so dang slow of a kill, you really need to double down on the control aspect to make him work against almost any deck outside of American Control. I'm gonna try out Batterskull, given our ramp/rituals we can handle the kill spells thrown his way for probably a quicker clock than Keranos. Snaps/Sakura + Batterskull is a credible threat as well.
I feel that the ramp is probably pretty integral for the deck. Maybe you can go without the Searches, but getting stuck on 3 or 4 lands really stinks.
Shackles is interesting, but its very diluted by the sulfur falls in the list. Given how much red mana the combo requires, i'm not sure we can do without them. Blood moon seems like it would hurt us just as much as them, and we're better positioned against decks that blood moon really hurts anyway.
Savage Knuckleblade seems like its worth testing. I just don't know if its better than say Batterskull or Inferno Titan. It takes a lot of mana to make good, and if we're cutting ramp I don't think we can support him past two or so turns.
So i've been playing that last list a bunch and really enjoying it. I agree that Keranos may not be what we're looking for. he is just slow all around. As an alt win it takes a long time to kill someone, and even just as an engine it takes a turn to cast and a few turns of his ability before you really feel like it's worth it. I've played him in heavier control lists and he rocks, but i'm not sure if it's exactly what we want.
I used to have 2 Batterskull as the sideboard alt win but i changed it for a reason i can't remember. It actually seems worth testing again though now that I'm thinking about it.
I haven't had a chance to test with Savage Knuckleblade yet, but i like that he's just 3 mana to cast. Another one i wanted to do more testing with was Kiora, the Crashing Wave. She's just 4 mana, all her abilities are relevant, and it only takes a few turns to ultimate, which definitely should win you the game. The downside is without any of our own creature(besides Tribe Scout, and Snappy) to block, she is an easy target, and may be too fragile. I've tested with her before and had mixed results, but it could be worth it to try again.
When it comes down to it, Wurmcoil Engine, and Inferno Titan i think unquestionably have the biggest impact, but at 6 mana, they can sometimes be hard to cast..
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Played in a weekly modern event with the recent list you posted, with my own meta-specific SB + Batterskull.
Lightning Bolt is, as predicted, sweet. I didn't board in Batterskull at all in my 3 matches, none of them had heavy GY hate (Dega, UWR Control, Grixis Control). UWR seems to be a very easy matchup, just sculpt your hand with merchant scroll and wait. Dega, if they couldn't land their thoughtseizes, is an easy game 1 and on the play. Got blown out by slaughter games g2 but with our ramp and leyline of sanctity, I don't feel like its a huge deal. Grixis control-ish had two turn 4 kills against me so I don't know how that plays. Dega/Grixis were odd, not at all consistent with the meta I'm used to and not decks I feel we need to worry about.
I want to like Kiora, The Crashing Wave, but starting loyalty 2 and only a +1 ability makes her just a lightning rod in Modern. I've played her in standard in my Sultai sb, but even there she just dies to an EoT lightning strike. I was looking at Planeswalkers as alt win cons, but none seem fast/durable enough for our style. We can control the board for a few turns at most as we lack hard wipes such as Wrath of God, making quick planeswalkers like Kiora ideal.
I'll be siding in Savage Knuckleblade next time around, 4/4 is probably durable enough to make him a quick enough clock if you just keep open bounce mana and don't pump. He's also cheap enough to maybe justify 2 or 3 in the sideboard to bring in.
We could also mirror what some Scapeshifts deck have done. Board out some of our combo/control pieces and get into a big green beats thing. A mix of maybe Inferno Titan and efficent beaters like Savage Knuckleblade. This could work out on some of the games as most of my opponents wisely sided out their pathes/hard removal, but most did leave in bolt. But I'm unsure if we can support that style or if its even a good direction.
Sorry about the late response.. Cool to hear about your experience. It does seem like you kinda had some bad luck there though. I honestly haven't ran into many people playing Slaughter Games, and like you said, we do have Leyline just in case, as well as an alt win if we're expecting Games/ Extraction. And Grixis Control with turn 4 wins? How is that even possible, was he playing threats like Young Pyromancer and Delver or something?
I have been playing Inferno Titan and Wurmcoil Engine primarily as my alt win for a while, and they seem to get the job done pretty well. Both have huge impact when the resolve, and both can be cast pretty reliably with our ramp and rituals. I do wish i had something a little cheaper though. I may end up with something like
I want to like Kiora but i agree with what you're saying. Getting our alt win blown up by Bolt is pretty unacceptable. I feel like if you do manage to get her ultimate you'll probably win, and that the effect is pretty cool, but something like Batterskull might just be for efficient, and effective. Batterskull is actually pretty awesome here the more i think about it. I love that he has Lifelink which can be important to give us some time to stabilize, but i feel like Vigilance is pretty great here to. He's a constant threat, and can slow down the game and stabilize you for the turn around. He just seems good everywhere really. And 5 mana makes him pretty easy to cast.
I'm really interested to hear about your next run with the deck, and to see how Savage Knuckleblade works out for you.
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I went 2-1 for the day; I beat UWR Control and Dega. My Grixis opponent called the deck control, but I saw a lot of delver cards (Snares, bolts, delver). G1 he went delver, blind flip, bolt, bolt, bolt, creeping tar pit and I stumbled on a land drop. G2 he went delver, delver, blind flip, bolt, but I had a Volcanic Fallout in hand but was stuck on 2 lands with only one red source. So I can't say I ran into poor match-ups nor saw any glaring flaws in the deck that day.
Slaughter Games is anti-Scapeshift tech. Once/if Scapeshift starts regaining popularity, which I think it will, we should probably expect any Jundy deck to start running it in the SB. But I'm not too worried about it. We can still win the game, using the same strategy, if they choose any card except increasing vengeance or PiF. I dealt 12 damage to my UWR opponent by chaining rituals into bolts into PiF increasing vengeance for the kill. And if we can settle on a good sideboard alt-win con, which we may/may not be close to, we can just bank on that.
I wonder if Chalice of the Void fits here. Chalice on 1 only blanks our bolts, which we're mostly using to remove 1 or 2 cmc creatures, and spell snares, which can generally be covered by our board-wipes (except for el goyfman). It would eat up our t2 play, and its much poorer if we're on the draw, but if we find delver to be troublesome it might be worth a gander.
I think I prefer Batterskull over Wurmcoil Engine, as its only a slightly slower clock (12 damage done by each on t8, 8 by batter on T7). Although we could get an interesting gifts pile of Inferno Titan, Wurmcoil, Batterskull, and one other big beats (Could be Savage Knucks, or something like another Titan). This stills allows us to Tutor for a beater, without having to care about GY hate too much. How often do your opponents have hard removal for Inferno Titan? I can see using the gifts, and them giving us Titan/Knucks (Or whatever) and just pathing titan, leaving us a bit high and dry.
I'll write up a better response later when i have more time, but can i ask you how you found this Primer? With only 4 posts on this forum i find it pretty crazy you found this deck and are actually into it.
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I'll do some playtests, get a basic list together and post it with my findings. Any suggestions as I start constructing the deck? Again, I'm going for speed as a priority. I'm planning on comboing T4 every game. After an EOT T3 gifts as a result of a pyretic or desperate ritual, or a goblin electromancer. Gitaxian Probe could be good for dealing with control, in addition to counting storm to get to that crucial number to kill.
Point 1: The exercise I used to construct the deck is not exempt from statistical noise. That means my method will add some cards that should not be there. They're tokens from previous thoughts and incarnations of the deck and should be removed.
Point 2: Scapeshifting into victory is not our main plan. Iona (or another unavoidable fatty) should be plan A. Scapeshift is there for the inevitable grindy matchups, where we try to card advantage our way into the late game and just win with a good topdeck. This means we want to reduce as much as possible our bad topdecks, such as Search for Tomorrow.
So lets go with changes:
Search for Tomorrow: as great as this is as a turn one play, it sucks topdecking one lategame or playing two of these. -3.
Sakura-Tribe Elder: the same argument can be made for Steve. There's just no room for him, as good as he may be against Jund. This frees sideboard space into useful stuff. -3
Treasure Cruise: The card is awesome and def needs testing, but we want instant speed. I'll trade these for DTTs. -2.
Dig Through Time: Best Impulse effect ever? Hell yeah. +4 in the main.
Cryptic Command: I agree with the miser Command being subpar. Adding another one. +1
Scapeshift: The double green on this card makes me wanna cry. Since we are running 4 DTTs now, I just want one. -1 mainboard -1 sb.
Plains: With the loss of SfT and Steve, I don't really have uses for you. Trading you for a Flooded Grove.
Dig Through Time allows me to run more lands, as the Impulse effect will just toss those pesky bad topdecks to the bottom. I'm adding another Flooded Grove.
We still have one extra slot. I want to put Inferno Titan or just go greedy and go Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. We actually have several big-dumb creatures available to try in this slot, each for a specific matchup. I just can't see Jeskai or Delver coming back from big ol Jin. - This is the one that needs some serious playtesting. Resolving one against control with counter backup means game as well. Expect overwhelming graveyard hate g2 against any deck once you resolve one of these. Actually, scratch that. I just realized I'm running only one Snapcaster Mage.
Since we are heavy on the GY plan game 1 to win, even with a plan B we should have some options to play G2 and avoid the hate. We have 4 new sideboard slots, and I have just the idea.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Crazy good, specially if you're draw-go. +1.
Mystical Teachings: You know what's very good with Flash creatures, instants and Teferi and grindy matchups? This big boy. +3.
I want to make some room for more one-ofs as game2 we play some mystical teachings action.
Combust: this should be just one. -1.
Electrolyze: same here. -1.
Swan Song: I think we are running enough permission in the main board and there's hardly a matchup where I would want more of these. If anythign, i would want more card advantage. -2
This opens 3 slots.
Ancient Grudge - +1. I mean, we are a Gifts list with Mystical Teachings backup and we do run RG. This is godly vs Robots.
Inferno Titan - +1. Should be Jin-Gitaxias here if we are playing him in the maindeck.
Wurmcoil Engine - +1. Same reasoning as above. It could actually just go mainboard.
Into the Roil - +1. I just love this card and we might need it against Leylines and whatnot. Extra bounce is good.
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Steam Vents
4x Stomping Ground
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Breeding Pool
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Forest
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Flooded Grove
1x Blood Crypt
1x Scapeshift
1x Unburial Rites
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Noxious Revival
3x Remand
3x Spell Snare
2x Izzet Charm
2x Spell Pierce
2x Negate
2x Cryptic Command
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Forked Bolt
2x Anger of the Gods
3x Mystical Teachings
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Combust
1x Electrolyze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Into the Roil
1x Inferno Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Ancient Grudge
Testing needs to be done to properly assess the efficiency of the skewed manabase and miser Scapeshift, but I think this one looks better than the first one, right Eco?
Also, I'll be working in a Mystical Teachings/Forbidden Alchemist Grixis list with the Teferi/Beatdown plan in the future.
Cristicism, thoughts and chatter are welcome. Don't let this thread die!
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On Joking101: If you want that sweet T4 consistent kill, then you were on the right track with that first Electromancer list. Not sure about Gitaxian Probe, but if you want to play Dig Through Time and Past in Flames I think Forbidden Alchemy is just great adding consistency and redundancy for the game.
You said you could consistently put around 9 mana up. Are you using Epic Experiment?
Also, if you are purely into speed, think Simian Spirit Guide. He's a net+1 card that can't be used by Past in Flames, but boy, he is fast! It also fuels that EOT T3 Gifts like a champ without the need to burn one of your sweet sweet rituals.
While I love some fast consistent combos, I also love to play draw-go. That's why I went in a more control route. I think you have a difficult game post-sb with a linear approach, but after figuring your maindeck this can be looked into further.
Necronecro: I agree, the list looks vastly improved, mostly because it looks a lot less like a Frankenstein's monster. However, I have a few major issues with it:
1)The scapeshift plan is bad. It requires you to make GG with no other green cards maindeck, and the card itself is a brick unless you have 7+ lands. It also requires you run Valakuts, which suck. In addition, attempting to use it as a finisher in a long grindy game makes the risk of drawing too many mountains to kill a very real possibility. Scapeshift should either be plan A or dropped.
2) The deck leans incredibly heavily on the unburial rites plan, which presents glaring flaws:
-Only 3 gifts must be a mistake, as it is the key (only) enabler of your win condition.
-Iona is not always an auto-win, and is therefore not sufficient. Elesh Norn is needed at a minimum.
-You have only 2 izzet charms to discard any part of the combo you draw, which can cause you to just lose to your own deck.
-You are hilariously vulnerable to graveyard hate. The scapeshift plan is not sufficient, and you can't fall back on snapcaster/manland beats, or anything else.
3) A teachings board seems very questionable. I don't have much experience playing with teachings, but it seems a very slow method of getting anti-hate. Teachings -> Teferi -> Bomb is reasonably solid, but very slow, and all your other teachings targets are very unexciting (and don't really help fix bad matchups).
If we drop the Scapeshift kill, you're left with a RUw Gifts control/combo deck. This could be developed in a number of ways:
-Add more white. Play Path to Exile, more snapcasters, sphinx rev, colonnades, etc. Essentially become a RUW control deck with gifts.
-Add black, and play maybe teachings maindeck. This gives hand disruption, better quality removal, creeping tar pit, Teferi + Bomb as a maindeck win condition.
-Cut red, add White and Black: become 4c gifts or Esper Gifts.
Basically, I feel like the deck has a number of cool directions it could take, but they are ultimately all (very different) gifts control decks that run the unbural rites combo. I do not think there is a future the for the scpaeshift kill (except as a Scapeshift list that plays gifts and rites combo (maybe in the sideboard?)), and RUgw doesn't do enough to justify not splashing colours/changing the base.
Also, the deck is moving very far away from anything resembling ritual gifts, so if you want to continue this line of discussion, another thread (or PMs) might be better.
I do think you can get away with running Rites combo maindeck though. I actually have played with it maindeck on and off for a while, and it can be nice to have a much easier combo to play in the main, as you can race to Iona/ Elesh pretty easily, and that alone will get you some free wins. Again though, you end up diluting the storm combo and the control aspects so it's tough to decide if it's worth it. Ultimately I decided against it, on the logic that it's also vulnerable to grave hate, and an alt win that loses to the same hate as the main win seems kinda bad.
If winning on turn 4 is what you wanna be doing, you can accomplish that much easier with Search for Tomorrow, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Rituals are just a dead card 95 percent of the time in this deck, but you still want to be building your mana, and accelerating. As Eco said though, ramping into a super early kill isn't really what this deck is trying to do. While yes the t4 win is possible, you are more so trying to ensure a win t5-7. Unlike other all-in combo decks, the idea here is that you can beat out whatever disruption your facing and still get the win.
This what I have been playing most recently. It's pretty similar to the last list I posted.
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Dig Through Time
-- Ramp --
3 Search for Tomorrow
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
-- Control --
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Pyroclasm
4 Remand
1 Spell Snare
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Izzet Charm
1 Electrolyze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snapcaster Mage
-- Rituals --
2 Manamorphose
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Mana Seism
1 Channel the Suns
2 Past in Flames
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
-- Lands --
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Negate
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Combust
1 Torpor Orb
1 Damping Matrix
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
So I made room to squeeze in 1 Dig Through Time to test it out, but I've only played a few games with this list and haven't actually cast it yet, so I'm still not sure how it's going to be. I have also been on the fence with Merchant Scroll, but we just honestly don't have a better option. The available cantrips are terrible. I suppose you could just run 4 Peer Through Depths instead and that could work out. If we had Impulse I would probably play that, Serum Visions, and Dig, and then maybe cut some ramp. but for what we have available to us, I don't see a better option really.
This list feels insanely tight though. At least the shell. The control package is always changing, and I can never decide between sweepers or spot removal, but the shell seems on point. Deciding on the right number of ramp spells has also been difficult. I like the sweepers because it gives you a sweet Gifts package, but against a deck like Ascendancy Storm, you want the spot removal a lot more.
I want to be able to say there's a stock list to grab, but when it comes do it, the control package you run seems purely meta dependent. You only have so many available slots, you can't realistically answer everything. My thinking behind going back to the sweepers is that they can be amazing for stabilizing in the midgame, and if it comes down to it you still have Izzet Charm and Electrolyze, and even sometimes Echoing Truth to ping Hatebears if necessary. The thing is, sometimes that whole package can be just a little too slow. So again it comes down to meta dependence.
The main takeaway from this list though is how tight the combo package is. You don't need or want a ton of Rituals, and other chaff. What I'm running here is the bare minimum amount of combo pieces possible. What this leaves us with is 5 "dead" cards. Channel the Suns, Pyretic Ritual, Mana Seism, and both Past in Flames are cards that don't really do anything outside the combo, so you don't actually want to draw more than 1-2 of them throughout the entire game. Drawing multiples will leave you unable to do a whole lot, so shrinking the combo package down to it's bare minimum I think is essential. Outside of those 5 cards though, everything else is playable, and out of the board the Rituals can sometimes be useful for ramping into Titan or Wurm.
what I'm trying to build is a deck with close to no dead cards in hand, playing mostly draw-go. The current proposed metagame tends to be unforgiving to decks without cheap answers and disruption and I just can't wrap my head around playing Merchant Scroll. Search for Tomorrow worries me as well. How do you deal with multiples? Is that card even good beyond the first and not on turn 1?
If what you say is right about just running 5 pieces of combo, I think we can do a Forbidden Alchemy/Teachings list. I'll try to build something when I have free time (last semester of college +works).
posting from my phone, so pardon the templating.
Search works fine in Scapeshift because it's a great turn 1 play (since it's one of the few T1 plays), and for multiples you can play them when you have 4-5 lands to leave mana open. They are such a good T1 play it's worth it, and the more ramp you play, the more stuff you can do.
I think it would make most sense to start off looking at the 4c gifts thread and Teachings thread (hopefully they've tested gifts), and go from there. No need to reinvent the wheel when people have worked on these very similar decks already.
I'll have a list in due time, you`ll see. Then you will criticize the sh** out of it and I'll tweak the deck and we have a lean mean Ritual Gifts machine
PS: Don't want to sound offensive, I love your criticism. Please bring more.
I wish there was something better than Merchant Scroll, but everytime I try to change it to something more cantrips focused, I never like how it works out. Merchant Scroll can find us everything we need; Gifts Ungiven, Counterspells, and Bounce/ Removal, and now we can even fetch Dig Through Time with it.
I have been thinking about going all in on a Dig Through Time-Cantrip suite, and maybe dropping the mana ramp.. Maybe something like..
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Peer Through Depths
2 Dig Through Time
4 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Flame Slash
2 Past in Flames
1 Manamporphose
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Mana Seism
1 Channel The Suns
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Grapeshot
1 Noxious Revival
22 Land
More of a focus on being able to have a lot of play through every stage of the game, and filling the grave faster for Dig Through Time. But without the ramp, you're no longer able to win t4, and have to use your cantrips to make sure you find all the lands you need. If Peer Through Depths was Impulse, I would feel better about a plan like this though.
As far as Search for Tomorrow past t1, I'll admit it's not always awesome using 3 mana to ramp, but at least the land comes into play untapped. After playing the deck a bunch without the ramp, I really do think it runs more consistently with the ramp. Being able to Gifts t3 for the t4 win can be huge, and also the biggest problem this deck has had in the past is finding all the land drops you need. You need 5-6 lands in play to combo off, and that can mean not winning till turn 6 or even t7-8-9 if you miss a land drop or 2. The mana ramp makes sure we get the lands we need. And it also helps us ramp into our fatties from the sideboard. It's also worth noting that if we have enough lands in play we can combo of with just 1 of the combo pieces in our hand, rather than 2.
I don't think the 5c Gifts thread has a whole lot to offer as the black splash is pretty huge to them. They are all about Iona, Lingering Souls, Loam combos with Gifts, and also more focused on the Rites combo. Like I said before you can get away with Rites combo in this deck(if you wanna splash another color) but having 2 combos that are both susceptible to the same hate doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
4 Serum Visions
2 Past in Flames
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Grapeshot
4 Manamorphose
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Goblin Electromancer
4 Shivan Reef
1 Epic Experiment
4 Remand
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Halimar Depths
1 Mana Seism
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Splinter Twin
3 Pestermite
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Izzet Charm
1 Dig Through Time
Here is an n=30 play test on cockatrice. The estimated win proportion is 66% with an error bound of 9% with 95% confidence.
Win: 20 loss:10
Ur (though remand) t5 win
3 color doran t4 empty the warrens (Mulligan to 6, turn 1 inquisition turn 2 thoughtseize)
Jund t7 win ( remand, beat thoughtseize ooze,)
Scapeshift lose
Scapeshift lose (spellskite) (g2)
Junk win (slaughter pact on electormancer mid combo after sacrificing all my lands to mana seism)
Tron loss (top deck pyroclasm after making 30 goblins turn 3 )
Tron win (twin) (g2)
Tron win (x=13 epic experiement, electromancer in play)
Junk lose (thoughtseize, halimar depths + 2 serum visions no action)
Delver win (though remand electormancer in play)
Delver (win, opp mana screwed g2 eidolon)
Delver (lose g2)
4 color delver loss (spell pierce, snapcaster)
4 color delver win (g2 twin)
4 Color delver win (twin)
Enduring idea (win turn 3, turn 2 electromancer)
Enduring ideal lose (curse of exhaustion)
Enduring idea win with twin (ideal, blind obedience)
4 color nivix Cyclopes combo (loss)
4 color nivix Cyclopes combo (win)
4 cc super friends win (turn 3 gifts turn 4 win)
4 cc super friends win (g2 turn 4 gifts into win, has path, win two turns later)
Burn loss (eidolon)
Burn loss (eidolon)
Burn win(remand eidolon)
Delver win (grapeshot a flipped delver, unflipped delver, and monastery swiftspear on turn 3)
Mill win mill win (g2 twin, surgical on exarch) bw tokens (win) bw tokens (g2, win, leyline of sancity)
Here is a 3-0 1st place report from another FNM.
Round 1: Merfolk
He tapped out for a lord of atlantis on his turn 4 after I remanded it, played a ritual into gifts ungiven and got mana seism, 2 rituals and a past in flames. He have me the 2 rituals and I cast electromancer and won. Game 2 I sideboarded twin in. He led with cursecatcher cursecatcher. I played an exarch eot and on my turn cast pyretic ritual which he cursecatched, and cast splinter twin with zero mana floating. Instead of countering it he let it resolve and I killed him. Then he complained all night about how unfair the deck was. To be fair he was dead on the next turn anyways because I was going to ritual into kiki jiki.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2:bw Tokens
He led with inquisition, then I probed and saw double tidehollow and zealous persecution. His inqusition took epic experiment. His tidehollows took gifts and electormancer. I was able to stick double electormancer but the empty the warren would do nothing as long as he had persecusion. I forced him to use it after making 6 goblins. He pathed both electromancers and I could not draw anything relevant. The next game I led with halimar depths and he had no turn 1 play. I played electormancer turn 2 and he played tidehollow taking gifts. I attacked with electromancer and he allowed it, then I played a second electromancer (drawing them all night it seems...) I started attacking for 4 every turn. Eventually he was at 8 and I killed him by chaining cantrips into a grapeshot remand grapeshot In the last game he had a tidehollow and two lingering souls tokens buffed by an enchantment. I grapeshot all his creatures, got a gifts back and cast it to kill him on the next turn when he tapped out for elspeth.
2-0(4-1)
Round 3: Goblins
He mulliganed to 4 game 1, not much to see here. I sandbagged the electormancer so I could win through bolt. I won on turn 4. In the second game he got me to 1. I had a turn 2 empty for 6 goblins that traded with his team. I cast a gifts turn 6 at 1 life and won on the next turn with mana seism, pif, ritual increasing vengence while holding epic experiment.
3-0 (6-1)
I got a polluted delta out of it with store credit so it was overall a good night.
modern: 4 color Gifts, ritual gifts, goryo's vengeance, affinity
vintage: burning oath
my affinity primer
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/metalcrafting-for-the-win-an-affinity-primer/
It makes me think whether i should start going more in that direction, of Electromancer-Ritual-Gifts loops, or the other options being, a cantrip-delve-tempo style, or a more control oriented style.
So i guess looking at what needs to be in the deck in order to combo(without an engine like Pyromancer Ascension, or Goblin Electromancer) we can break it down to this
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Mana Seism
1 Channel The Suns
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
1 Remand
So a total of 10 cards, that make the combo work. With 22 lands that leaves 28 slots open. We need only 2 other things, a way to find Gifts and some combo pieces, and a way to protect us and our combo. What we need to do is figure out the best way to use those 28 slots...
What i see is 3 paths which you can take.
- The classic, Combo/Control style
-A Tempo/Combo-Delve focused style
-Engine based combo(Electromancer, Cloud Key, Pyromancer Ascension)
What i can't decide is which is the most efficient style. Or even if there's something else i'm not seeing all together. I guess the question i'm asking is, What do we do with those 28 slots?
In my experience with the deck, ever since the banning of Seething Song, it always felt like a turn slower than the rest of the format. I've won a lot of matches after the ban, but I assure you that more than half of them were due to my opponents not having a clue what I was doing. Anytime I played against really good players, they'd just wreck me. When I got paired against aggro decks, they would kill me the turn before I went off 80% of the time. Song allowed you to jump from 5 mana to 15 with just the Song and Vengeance in hand (fork, with fork mana flashback fork, there you went). That made it so you really needed much less in hand to go off from a single Gifts, and drawing into Song was pretty strong. Nowadays, you need a Ritual, a 5th land and a Manamorphose/another ritual in hand to go off turn 5. And you are playing a third color just for the mediocre Song replacement. This hinders Blood Moon as a sideboard plan and adds inconsistency to a deck that wants potentially RRR when it's going off and G and U for Channel the Suns and Gifts.
It's a very fun deck though, and the beautiful concept around it's game plan makes it one of my favorite decks. Against slow decks, you always stand a chance as you get to play very powerful cards, and the matches end up being very interactive when you are not burned down fastly. Plus seeing your opponents face while you are charging a storage land is an irreplaceable feeling (and twice my opponents asked the judge if Merchant Scroll was modern legal, it was pretty funny)
And it's funny because i get the Merchant Scroll question a lot too. A lot of people forget about that card. Not to mention the 8th edition version is hideous so i play with Homelands.
I actually agree with everything you're saying. The deck has it's flaws but the concept, the combo, and the gameplay are just too much fun. Beyond that though, i do see potential. The deck doesn't feel like a complete fish out of water, and i have a decent amount of success playing with it. Like any combo deck though, there are certainly games i just get blown out, either from hate, or just the deck folding to itself.
Maybe we won't be tier 1 without a proper Seething Song replacement, but what i want to do at least, is find the best possible deck we can be playing. Everyone who's been playing this deck all have pretty different looking lists. Unfortunately, I feel like development is pretty glacial with only a few people playing and testing totally different lists.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I've been using the bog-standard list with the 1 of DTT.
I have a few thoughts. I've found that Volcanic Fallout is probably a better Pyroclasm. It gets stuff off the board, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and at instant speed. It costs an additional mana (double red at that) but, aside from ramp, all the deck wants to be doing early game is controlling the board. There aren't very many threats on turn 2 that we have to take out that turn or lose. Also it is more insurance vs Pestermite combo for Twin. Granted, the 2 damage to your face could be relevant versus burn, and the extra cmc slightly more painful, so maybe it isn't worth it after all.
I've been tinkering around with alternate wincons. So far I've come up stumped. Epic Experiment requires far more ramp to be consistent than this deck comfortably provides, not to mention we don't cantrip/ritual as much as UR Storm does, so we have far more blanks. Other X-spells, fireball/Debt/etc, suffer from the same mana limitations as well as being harder to search up. Creatures suffer from the same lack of tutoring(one of the main strengths) and are vulnerable to removal the deck normally blanks. I would feel much more comfortable if we could find a 5-card or so side board package that provides a fighting chance versus graveyard hate. I've recently been running a few rituals and an empty the warrens but Delver has increased the amount of pyroclasm/Anger of the Gods/electrickery in the meta making that package far weaker. The Twin package is interesting but it leaves you without space for hate such as Hurkyl's or Torpor. I did a real jank 1 of Emrakul that stole a few games, but it doesn't play around GY hate and the only way to consistently get Emrakul is to use DTT, and even then its not 90%. It just seems that Gifts main strength is the dumping 2 of the cards into the GY. If instead those cards get exiled, Gifts is far less of a card. Perhaps we run more boomerangs to get the GY hate off the board? It would slow the deck down even more, though.
Dig Through Time is an allstar in the deck, so far. Delving 6 cards hasn't been a huge issue in the deck, we have enough fetches/removal/ramp to allow for a t3/t4 2-4cmc DTT. Helps a lot if you're sitting with 1 or no combo pieces in hand. Merchant Scroll being able to tutor for it has saved me from a couple of defeats. I'm not sure we want more than 1, but I think it has a definite place.
I really feel that, if we're sticking with the consistent gifts package, the deck should stay as combo/control. Other decks such as Ascendancy/UR Storm are quicker but fold more easily to hate. Speeding up this deck would be useful, but I don't think you can speed it up while justifying space for Gifts. Tempo is interesting, but would it be better than a tempo-delver deck? I'm not sure how it would even look.
The last time I played I was running Lightning Bolts, and sometimes drawing 2 of them early game allowed me to go off with Increasing Vengeanced Bolts and a tiny Grapeshot, and I think I recall a couple of times where that would let me win in some spots where the "big Kill" (forked Channel the Suns for the Grape-Remand-Grape thingy) wasn't possible. Given how good Bolt is in the format with Delver of Secrets and Eidolon of the Great Revel, I think it could be a good idea to be running a playset maindeck. I used a Snapcaster Mage too, so I could sometimes go on controlling the board in the same way most UR modern decks can. My maindeck was something like:
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
3 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Halimar Depths
1 Molten Slagheap
1 Fungal Reaches
1 Dreadship Reef
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Muddle the Mixture
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Past in Flames
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
1 Channel the Suns
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Mana Seism
1 Manamorphose
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
1 Izzet Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Slash
1 Snapcaster Mage
The Flame Slash opened up space for fine defensive piles (you could go with Bolt, Slash, Snapcaster, Electrolyze). I wasn't playing red sweepers maindeck, but at the time Delver decks didn't get that much play.
I'd definitely would try to find space for 1 Dig Through Time: that card has to be bonkers in this deck provided you can use it without the need to exile business spells. Some people tried builds with Serum Visions, and maybe a build including those could support a couple more DTT. Damn, I want to play this deck again I'll be trying it the next time I get to go to a small tournament, though it may be a while til that.
PS: I recall that even with Seething Song in the format, LegitKarona (the creator of this deck version) was running Unburial Rites + Griselbrand as you could reanimate him easily turn 4 with a turn 3 Gifts, and that would give you enough gas to Storm them out the next turn (plus a board presence not to be laughed about: some decks just fold to the 7/7 lifelinker). I tested it a bit and didn't like it that much, as drawing one of the pieces often involved Merchant Scrolling for Izzet Charm if you wanted to go that way, or having a dead card in hand (that version might have run more Izzet Charm though; I think it was in the Deathrite Shaman era. Also, the deck wasn't running green at that point, so the white splash was easier; I strongly discourage running 4 colors in this deck). I could definitely see it as a sideboard plan though, as having one Hallowed Fountain in your deck isn't likely to ruin your Game 1 if you don't need to fetch it, and it would be a nice backup plan in case you get blown out by some hate card you weren't expecting or just Slaughter Games naming Grapeshot (nobody is likely to leave Path to Exile or Terminate in against us)
PS2: I haven't played with Keranos, God of Storms at all. It could be atrociously good in some matchups as an easy to cast plan B. Can't Spell Pierce that one for sure, and he is pretty reliable as way to dominate the board/bury your opponent in card advantage from what I've heard. Another card I'd try, though it might need a major rebuild of the manabase in my case at least, is Vedalken Shackles. Creature decks that aren't prepared for it rarely can win against it. Hell, I think this deck could even stretch to playing Blood Moon in the sideboard. I strongly believe that attacking the game from many angles is what we want to be doing, as preparing against hate is difficult, will slow us down, and doesn't always work.
FYI that wasn't ever really a consensus, just like one guy's idea a year and a half ago. But yeah, it's probably not really viable: if you want tin-fins style, there is a "Griselbanned" modern deck elsewhere.
Unburial rites + Griz (or any other common rites targets) is not a good sideboard plan at all because it loses to GY hate, which is the precise hate that comes in against us already. Keranos seems like a pretty reasonable idea (maybe even combined with teachings + teferi?)
How's everyone feel about the ramp in the deck? I can't decide if it's worth it or not. In testing it feels good though. One of the biggest problems the deck had before was getting to that 5th land.
Also, What about Savage Knuckleblade out of the board as a alt win?
This is my most recent list. It feels pretty awesome in testing. Dig Through Time is amazing. Every time that card resolves it does so much work. Being Scroll-able is awesome too.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
-Search-
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Dig Through Time
-Control-
4 Remand
2 Spell Snare
1 Izzet Charm
1 Electrolyze
1 Echoing Truth
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Pyroclasm
1 Snapcaster Mage
-Ritual-
2 Manamorphose
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Mana Seism
1 Channel the Suns
2 Past in Flames
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
-Land-
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Negate
1 Combust
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
I feel that the ramp is probably pretty integral for the deck. Maybe you can go without the Searches, but getting stuck on 3 or 4 lands really stinks.
Shackles is interesting, but its very diluted by the sulfur falls in the list. Given how much red mana the combo requires, i'm not sure we can do without them. Blood moon seems like it would hurt us just as much as them, and we're better positioned against decks that blood moon really hurts anyway.
Savage Knuckleblade seems like its worth testing. I just don't know if its better than say Batterskull or Inferno Titan. It takes a lot of mana to make good, and if we're cutting ramp I don't think we can support him past two or so turns.
I used to have 2 Batterskull as the sideboard alt win but i changed it for a reason i can't remember. It actually seems worth testing again though now that I'm thinking about it.
I haven't had a chance to test with Savage Knuckleblade yet, but i like that he's just 3 mana to cast. Another one i wanted to do more testing with was Kiora, the Crashing Wave. She's just 4 mana, all her abilities are relevant, and it only takes a few turns to ultimate, which definitely should win you the game. The downside is without any of our own creature(besides Tribe Scout, and Snappy) to block, she is an easy target, and may be too fragile. I've tested with her before and had mixed results, but it could be worth it to try again.
When it comes down to it, Wurmcoil Engine, and Inferno Titan i think unquestionably have the biggest impact, but at 6 mana, they can sometimes be hard to cast..
Lightning Bolt is, as predicted, sweet. I didn't board in Batterskull at all in my 3 matches, none of them had heavy GY hate (Dega, UWR Control, Grixis Control). UWR seems to be a very easy matchup, just sculpt your hand with merchant scroll and wait. Dega, if they couldn't land their thoughtseizes, is an easy game 1 and on the play. Got blown out by slaughter games g2 but with our ramp and leyline of sanctity, I don't feel like its a huge deal. Grixis control-ish had two turn 4 kills against me so I don't know how that plays. Dega/Grixis were odd, not at all consistent with the meta I'm used to and not decks I feel we need to worry about.
I want to like Kiora, The Crashing Wave, but starting loyalty 2 and only a +1 ability makes her just a lightning rod in Modern. I've played her in standard in my Sultai sb, but even there she just dies to an EoT lightning strike. I was looking at Planeswalkers as alt win cons, but none seem fast/durable enough for our style. We can control the board for a few turns at most as we lack hard wipes such as Wrath of God, making quick planeswalkers like Kiora ideal.
I'll be siding in Savage Knuckleblade next time around, 4/4 is probably durable enough to make him a quick enough clock if you just keep open bounce mana and don't pump. He's also cheap enough to maybe justify 2 or 3 in the sideboard to bring in.
We could also mirror what some Scapeshifts deck have done. Board out some of our combo/control pieces and get into a big green beats thing. A mix of maybe Inferno Titan and efficent beaters like Savage Knuckleblade. This could work out on some of the games as most of my opponents wisely sided out their pathes/hard removal, but most did leave in bolt. But I'm unsure if we can support that style or if its even a good direction.
I have been playing Inferno Titan and Wurmcoil Engine primarily as my alt win for a while, and they seem to get the job done pretty well. Both have huge impact when the resolve, and both can be cast pretty reliably with our ramp and rituals. I do wish i had something a little cheaper though. I may end up with something like
Inferno Titan
Wurmcoil Engine
Batterskull
I want to like Kiora but i agree with what you're saying. Getting our alt win blown up by Bolt is pretty unacceptable. I feel like if you do manage to get her ultimate you'll probably win, and that the effect is pretty cool, but something like Batterskull might just be for efficient, and effective. Batterskull is actually pretty awesome here the more i think about it. I love that he has Lifelink which can be important to give us some time to stabilize, but i feel like Vigilance is pretty great here to. He's a constant threat, and can slow down the game and stabilize you for the turn around. He just seems good everywhere really. And 5 mana makes him pretty easy to cast.
I'm really interested to hear about your next run with the deck, and to see how Savage Knuckleblade works out for you.
Slaughter Games is anti-Scapeshift tech. Once/if Scapeshift starts regaining popularity, which I think it will, we should probably expect any Jundy deck to start running it in the SB. But I'm not too worried about it. We can still win the game, using the same strategy, if they choose any card except increasing vengeance or PiF. I dealt 12 damage to my UWR opponent by chaining rituals into bolts into PiF increasing vengeance for the kill. And if we can settle on a good sideboard alt-win con, which we may/may not be close to, we can just bank on that.
I wonder if Chalice of the Void fits here. Chalice on 1 only blanks our bolts, which we're mostly using to remove 1 or 2 cmc creatures, and spell snares, which can generally be covered by our board-wipes (except for el goyfman). It would eat up our t2 play, and its much poorer if we're on the draw, but if we find delver to be troublesome it might be worth a gander.
I think I prefer Batterskull over Wurmcoil Engine, as its only a slightly slower clock (12 damage done by each on t8, 8 by batter on T7). Although we could get an interesting gifts pile of Inferno Titan, Wurmcoil, Batterskull, and one other big beats (Could be Savage Knucks, or something like another Titan). This stills allows us to Tutor for a beater, without having to care about GY hate too much. How often do your opponents have hard removal for Inferno Titan? I can see using the gifts, and them giving us Titan/Knucks (Or whatever) and just pathing titan, leaving us a bit high and dry.