Since DRS is banned, I thought adding blue would help compensate for that. Plus I really want to run dark confidant which is not being used a lot in modern. Instead of serum visions I thought it would be neat to use thought scour to draw a card and value pump our decks creatures. I also think a lot of decks use value creatures so I'm replacing Lotv with Ashiok so that the opponent has to decide whether to kill it or not while I try to grind them out. Here is a list I came up with.
This is my first time posting something. Hopefully I coded everything correctly. Any suggestions and/or criticisms are welcome. I will be play testing the deck later this week. I'll let u guys know how it did.
My first advice is to cut some of the Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver for Liliana of the Veil. Ashiok provides no benefits in multiples, whereas Liliana can (i.e., if you +2 Ashiok to exile three cards, and then cast a second Ashiok replacing the first, the second one cannot utilize the first one's exiled cards, whereas you can use Liliana's +1 or -2, cast a second, and immediately get value out of the second).
So, -2 Ashiok, +3 Liliana, and I guess -1 Thought Scour. You already generate card advantage via Dark Confidant, selective card advantage via discard spells, and virtual card advantage via the exiled cards from Ashiok. I even prefer Life from the Loam over Thought Scour, allowing you additional card advantage, re-use of manlands and fetches, and potential recursion of Tectonic Edge if you go that route.
Has the Alchemist's Refuge provided any benefit? Most of your spells are instants, an instant speed PW provides no benefit, and your relevant chump blocker already has flash. Tectonic Edge would be better here.
Last thought, main deck: I've been disappointed in testing Mana Leak. I moved over to Spell Pierce and then Negate, but am still not happy with it. Perhaps Countersquall would be best option.
Sideboard
Flashfreeze and Psychic Strike... I don't know. Flashfreeze is so narrow; what is the intended target for it that an additional Abrupt Decay can't destroy or discard spell can't preemptively yank? Psychic Strike is a hard counter, which is great, but at three mana Voidslime is ten times better.
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I like the idea of using Life from the Loam, Tectonic Edge, and Countersquall. As well as Voidslime in the sideboard. I had no idea Countersquall and Voidslime even existed, I'm still somewhat new to modern. I also don't have a lot of experience running Dark Confidant, so I'm not sure whether to play him early or late. I like the idea of using Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver over Liliana of the Veil, because I feel the value doesn't look as appealing against POD. I felt Flashfreeze would be good against POD and Twin decks, but Abrupt Decay would be just as good if not better. Thanks for the advice :). I'll probably still test the original and probably use what you suggested afterward, I just want to see how it works.
Totally understandable. I too want Ashiok to work; just hasn't happened for me yet.
One additional sideboard card I'd suggest against Pod is Leyline of the Void (actually, I suggest it against UWR, Living End, Loam, opposing Goyfs, Storm... it has consistently overperformed for me). It stops every Pod shenanigan except for Gavony Township, can come down on Turn 0, and they usually don't have an answer for it until they can get to their single Harmonic Sliver or whatever in the sideboard.
I should probably post my list now. I've done some testing online but have yet to take it to an event. I've waffled between Geth's Verdict and Devour Flesh in the sideboard. The double black isn't usually an issue with the Verdict, but on occasion it has been annoying.
I've been playing a form of bug in burg since starting playing modern after death rite shaman got banned I gave up but no other deck felt quite right everything I built seamed like there were match that were auto losses but enough of that here's my list
Land
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
2 island
1 swamp
1 forest
2 watery grave
2 breeding pool
2 over grown tomb
2 dark slick shore
3 creeping tar pit
Spells
3 liliana of the veil
3 abrupt decay
2 remand
2 cryptic command
2 spell snare
3 inquisition of koezlik
2 thoughtseize
2 maelstrom pulse
1 hero's downfall
2 shadow of doubt
I know this is a mess and may not be 100 %
But this was typed while at work on my phone while we are slow I will edit with tags when I get home
I didn't do great for the weekly modern tournament, but it definitely was a learning experience and I have a few more things I'd like to try out. I listened to some of the advice given to me before I played and I took out the thought scours and alchemist refuge in place of 2 shadow of doubt, scooze, abrupt decay, and a pulse. Sideboard I just added 4 leyline of void. I also had 2 primordial hydra in the sideboard instead of surgical extraction cuz I was thinking about experimenting with casting cost cards with X in the them in casual games.
Leyline of the void was helpful, but I feel it didn't give me that extra oompf.
Ashiok was an absolute monster in this deck, the unexpected random interactions by playing value creatures from the opponent was the best part of playing this deck.
The removal and counterspell package was pretty decent, so was the disruption.
The creatures did well as expected. The lands though I'm still trying to figure out. I don't know if I want to run with consistency or using tech edges. I played an American control deck where they used 3 tech edges in their deck for man lands. I feel though with this deck locking an opponent out is rare, same as playing with shadow of doubt. Most of the time my draws were decent and I had the mana to play what I wanted fairly easy. I just feel that adding tech edges into this deck is a win more kind of game plan. Against control we want to win as fast as possible. I did lock someone out with a shadow of doubt which was hilarious, but it was a who can get their land first situation after that, and he got there first.
My next idea is to use the slots I had thought scour in for 4 Liliana of the Veil alongside 4 Ashiok and try to lock an opponent out with both or at least have a good chance of playing a planeswalker. I'm also intrigued with using X mana cards because Bob would not hurt us that much and it felt like 1/3 of the time I'd do everything right in the early game, but then putter out with a bunch of mana.
side boards are meta dependent but 60 card main has been very fun
apologies on the formatting but this is what i've been playing since the week before richmond and i need to go to bed
i get a lot of surprised looks on the quicken, but quicken thoughtseize is nearly as good as a counterspell after t3 and every combo deck can be disrupted end of draw phase. it's lackluster against uwr but i've been playing in a combo meta so i'm a bit tuned for that (as well with an array of counter in the board but again board is board) hope this helps a bit it's a great deck though people might hate because it is without a shadow of a doubt the most expensive thing you could play in modern (quicken aside). I sometimes like to try and get another slaughter pact in if I'm expecting a lot of twin I've also had good luck with a go for the throat and a hero's downfall in the board recently.
24 lands
4 verdant
3 misty
2 of each shock and each basic
3 tar pits and 2 tec edges
yes quicken pulse is a beautiful thing as well as creeping corrosion/deathmark out of the board, has saved my life against inkmoths and raging ravines before many a time. if you aren't running sorceries out of the board it loses some value but if you're playing snap, remand and abrupt decay, being able to use discard EOT is beautiful. It's not quite as good as it is in my current build of esper gifts with lingering souls/flashback and rites to abuse it.
The idea came to me from reading a patrick chapin article on how to cast thoughtseize and i was surprised to learn that he always boarded them out in the jund mirror. At the time i had cryptics in the quicken slot and it wasn't working, it was clunky and hard to play on time. Back to chapin: I liked his reasoning of think how long the game goes and basically use that as a diminishing return on effectiveness of top decks. With quicken and a set of snap it usually sets up a pretty strong triangle to stop sorcery speed spells.
Very ineffective against things with flash but most back breaking threats aren't. If you play bug and you've ever had someone rip Blood moon off the top after you inquistion of TS you know exactly what i mean. running in color fetches and 6 basics help but a t3 blood moon without basics out is usually lights out.
give it a shot, let me know what you think and if you find any other good things to abuse it with.
I will definitely test Quicken out. I like your reasoning. I think it would be better in my list than Gitaxian Probe, one card I had been looking at lately as a filter and as a way to know if it's safe to drop a PW in play or hold mana for a counterspell/removal. Quicken doesn't give you perfect information like Probe, but it too cantrips, and can be cast during opponent's turn to boot.
I dislike Alchemist's Refuge for its similar effect because it takes two mana plus itself (so in effect, three lands) and only provides colorless mana otherwise in a mana-intensive deck.
Off of the top of my head, other sorceries which would benefit from Quicken:
Yeah, i've thought about all of those. Gaze in the board for tokens seems okay, serum visions is alright but i like trying to focus turn 1 on discard or getting my land into play without bolting myself and otherwise its double blue to filter to cards, again not terrible but the strength of the deck is the overall power level as much as the synergy is great and snapping back slaughter pact is beautiful the deck works because everything is either a bomb or removal. not quite to the extent that jund is but it's much more resilient and can clutch victory from the jaws of defeat unlike any other non combo deck i've played. This seems silly but with this deck you're never out of it until you're actually dead, sometimes especially against jund you may feel dead in the water but the deck claws its way back. for being a different twist on the rock shell i think our power level is higher because snapcaster is just nuts. the deck utilizes snaps body better than any i've played (though i can make an argument for gifts with elesh norn but then its not a 2/1, its a big time beater, like everything else).
as for the rest of list mutilate, black sun's i dislike especially if you're running clique because so many of our creatures die to it and you always be able to hit zoo hard enough because of the expense. if toxic deluge sees a modern print that would be great tec in the board potentially and we don't really that many swamps or that many lands for that matter (at least i dont with 7 fetches and 2 tec edges). there are a number of variants and i think in a control shell it makes sense but the best cards in it thrive in a tempo shell and those are cards for the most part you hope your opponent isn't playing, at least i do. if you want to play more control i'd consider playing leaks and cryptics and leaving the remands out. i'm not a big fan of remand, in fact i really don't like the card but it does what it does and can be a good role player when used properly with discard in a tempo shell.
I agree that remand is not as good in this deck. What I'd really like to try out is eyes of the wisent against blue decks. I have two in the sideboard but it would be nuts to have 4 in the side. I don't get why its a 50 cent card, its like a voice. So far for zoo and pod decks I just have a golgari charm, drown in sorrow, engineered explosives, and a gaze of granite. Also I think tech edges would be good because blue decks tend to bounce ashiok right before it ultimates. I think 3 ashiok and 3 liliana is good. I went down to 3 snapcaster, while it is powerful, there just aren't enough targets spells for it. Voidslime I gave up on cuz its too expensive and I think dispel does a good enough job against storm. Countersquall is cute but too narrow. The advice I got on primordial hydra is that its bad lol. I'll try again in 2 weeks cuz Jou pre release and I don't have modo. I'm on my phone so please forgive me if this post looks horrid.
This deck definitely has potential. I see BUG as more of a tempo build than Rock. Solid interactions such as Unified will and Bitterblossom. Snapcaster-ing Abrupt Decay or inquisition of Kozilek sounds incredibly potent against so many different decks. You can really create a powerful deck here with a very low curve. Dark confidant, remand, eternal witness for card advantage. Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, and maybe even Duskmantle Seer as finishers. Oh… It is SO time to start brewing! I'll be back tomorrow with a list!
I playtest a bit more the last time I replied. I have to say that courser of kruphix is an all star in a rock build. The additional life gain mattered and was good in helping me dig for answers. Ashiok is probably good as a one of mainboard or sideboard, good vs. control and had the potential of ending the game via mill against all sorts of decks. So I have to let go of the idea of running 4. eyes of the wisent was a really good sideboard card against blue decks as well. Soon I will post a more tuned list.
eyes of the wisent that looks interesting. are you running thrun? he's an all star against uwr flash/burn/they call it control but it really isn't. eyes of the wisent definitely looks awesome. it doesn't do much against all in twin but could be an all star against the tempo varieties if we can keep them off combo. I like courser a lot but I hate tapping out after turn 2, unless it's for liliana and i'm not scared of combo though i have to say when i see it across the table it's always awesome and a must kill so that has to be worth something, right. i've gone back to leaks as i've been really frustrated with remand (though it is really good agains uwr and i haven't seen it across the table from for a while). I've also had trouble generating enough green to for scoozes so i've cut down 2 for an extra counter and cut a breeding pool for a misty.
I'd like to find room for a cryptic and another slaughter pact but i'm really not sure what to cut, i think move a liliana to the board, what do you guys think. from a value / power perspective which the deck is all about the weakest card is quicken, but i don't like running just one, it pairs extremely well with discard and leak in a hand and makes snap discard an effective answers in the top deck war but maybe they should just be slaughter pact and cryptic, also good in the late game top deck war?
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Spells
4 Mana Leak
4 Thought Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Psychic Strike
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dispel
1 Flashfreeze
2 Trygon Predator
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Spellskite
2 Surgical Extraction
This is my first time posting something. Hopefully I coded everything correctly. Any suggestions and/or criticisms are welcome. I will be play testing the deck later this week. I'll let u guys know how it did.
My first advice is to cut some of the Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver for Liliana of the Veil. Ashiok provides no benefits in multiples, whereas Liliana can (i.e., if you +2 Ashiok to exile three cards, and then cast a second Ashiok replacing the first, the second one cannot utilize the first one's exiled cards, whereas you can use Liliana's +1 or -2, cast a second, and immediately get value out of the second).
So, -2 Ashiok, +3 Liliana, and I guess -1 Thought Scour. You already generate card advantage via Dark Confidant, selective card advantage via discard spells, and virtual card advantage via the exiled cards from Ashiok. I even prefer Life from the Loam over Thought Scour, allowing you additional card advantage, re-use of manlands and fetches, and potential recursion of Tectonic Edge if you go that route.
Has the Alchemist's Refuge provided any benefit? Most of your spells are instants, an instant speed PW provides no benefit, and your relevant chump blocker already has flash. Tectonic Edge would be better here.
Last thought, main deck: I've been disappointed in testing Mana Leak. I moved over to Spell Pierce and then Negate, but am still not happy with it. Perhaps Countersquall would be best option.
Sideboard
Flashfreeze and Psychic Strike... I don't know. Flashfreeze is so narrow; what is the intended target for it that an additional Abrupt Decay can't destroy or discard spell can't preemptively yank? Psychic Strike is a hard counter, which is great, but at three mana Voidslime is ten times better.
One additional sideboard card I'd suggest against Pod is Leyline of the Void (actually, I suggest it against UWR, Living End, Loam, opposing Goyfs, Storm... it has consistently overperformed for me). It stops every Pod shenanigan except for Gavony Township, can come down on Turn 0, and they usually don't have an answer for it until they can get to their single Harmonic Sliver or whatever in the sideboard.
I should probably post my list now. I've done some testing online but have yet to take it to an event. I've waffled between Geth's Verdict and Devour Flesh in the sideboard. The double black isn't usually an issue with the Verdict, but on occasion it has been annoying.
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Batterskull
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Negate
2 Remand
2 Doom Blade
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Devour Flesh
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Duress
Land
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
2 island
1 swamp
1 forest
2 watery grave
2 breeding pool
2 over grown tomb
2 dark slick shore
3 creeping tar pit
Creatures
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
2 scavenging ooze
Spells
3 liliana of the veil
3 abrupt decay
2 remand
2 cryptic command
2 spell snare
3 inquisition of koezlik
2 thoughtseize
2 maelstrom pulse
1 hero's downfall
2 shadow of doubt
I know this is a mess and may not be 100 %
But this was typed while at work on my phone while we are slow I will edit with tags when I get home
Well I have 2 but this is the first.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Mystic Snake
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Disfigure
4 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Go for the Throat
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Marsh Flats
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Spell Snare
SB: 2 Go for the Throat
SB: 1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 4 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Skylasher
Here is the first verison of BUG I played
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 3 Go for the Throat
SB: 1 Storm Crow
4 Spreading Seas
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Snake
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Disfigure
4 Mana Leak
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Breeding Pool
2 Watery Grave
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Island
2 Forest
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Leyline of the void was helpful, but I feel it didn't give me that extra oompf.
Ashiok was an absolute monster in this deck, the unexpected random interactions by playing value creatures from the opponent was the best part of playing this deck.
The removal and counterspell package was pretty decent, so was the disruption.
The creatures did well as expected. The lands though I'm still trying to figure out. I don't know if I want to run with consistency or using tech edges. I played an American control deck where they used 3 tech edges in their deck for man lands. I feel though with this deck locking an opponent out is rare, same as playing with shadow of doubt. Most of the time my draws were decent and I had the mana to play what I wanted fairly easy. I just feel that adding tech edges into this deck is a win more kind of game plan. Against control we want to win as fast as possible. I did lock someone out with a shadow of doubt which was hilarious, but it was a who can get their land first situation after that, and he got there first.
My next idea is to use the slots I had thought scour in for 4 Liliana of the Veil alongside 4 Ashiok and try to lock an opponent out with both or at least have a good chance of playing a planeswalker. I'm also intrigued with using X mana cards because Bob would not hurt us that much and it felt like 1/3 of the time I'd do everything right in the early game, but then putter out with a bunch of mana.
Using 'x' spells is a novel idea. Are there any in particular you are thinking about outside the hydra? Condescend is one of my favorites in these colors. Mistcutter Hydra could function as a poor man's Thrun, the Last Troll. Hmmm: Gaze of Granite, Repeal, Engineered Explosives...
Sorry to hear the Leylines didn't work out for you.
apologies on the formatting but this is what i've been playing since the week before richmond and i need to go to bed
i get a lot of surprised looks on the quicken, but quicken thoughtseize is nearly as good as a counterspell after t3 and every combo deck can be disrupted end of draw phase. it's lackluster against uwr but i've been playing in a combo meta so i'm a bit tuned for that (as well with an array of counter in the board but again board is board) hope this helps a bit it's a great deck though people might hate because it is without a shadow of a doubt the most expensive thing you could play in modern (quicken aside). I sometimes like to try and get another slaughter pact in if I'm expecting a lot of twin I've also had good luck with a go for the throat and a hero's downfall in the board recently.
24 lands
4 verdant
3 misty
2 of each shock and each basic
3 tar pits and 2 tec edges
4 liliana
4 goyf
4 snap
4 bob
3 scooze
2 clique
2 remand
2 pulse
3 abrupt decay
3 IoK
2 thoughtseize
1 slaughter pact
2 quicken
yes quicken pulse is a beautiful thing as well as creeping corrosion/deathmark out of the board, has saved my life against inkmoths and raging ravines before many a time. if you aren't running sorceries out of the board it loses some value but if you're playing snap, remand and abrupt decay, being able to use discard EOT is beautiful. It's not quite as good as it is in my current build of esper gifts with lingering souls/flashback and rites to abuse it.
The idea came to me from reading a patrick chapin article on how to cast thoughtseize and i was surprised to learn that he always boarded them out in the jund mirror. At the time i had cryptics in the quicken slot and it wasn't working, it was clunky and hard to play on time. Back to chapin: I liked his reasoning of think how long the game goes and basically use that as a diminishing return on effectiveness of top decks. With quicken and a set of snap it usually sets up a pretty strong triangle to stop sorcery speed spells.
Very ineffective against things with flash but most back breaking threats aren't. If you play bug and you've ever had someone rip Blood moon off the top after you inquistion of TS you know exactly what i mean. running in color fetches and 6 basics help but a t3 blood moon without basics out is usually lights out.
give it a shot, let me know what you think and if you find any other good things to abuse it with.
I dislike Alchemist's Refuge for its similar effect because it takes two mana plus itself (so in effect, three lands) and only provides colorless mana otherwise in a mana-intensive deck.
Off of the top of my head, other sorceries which would benefit from Quicken:
Gaze of Granite
Serum Visions
Damnation
Mutilate
Black Sun's Zenith
Cruel Edict
as for the rest of list mutilate, black sun's i dislike especially if you're running clique because so many of our creatures die to it and you always be able to hit zoo hard enough because of the expense. if toxic deluge sees a modern print that would be great tec in the board potentially and we don't really that many swamps or that many lands for that matter (at least i dont with 7 fetches and 2 tec edges). there are a number of variants and i think in a control shell it makes sense but the best cards in it thrive in a tempo shell and those are cards for the most part you hope your opponent isn't playing, at least i do. if you want to play more control i'd consider playing leaks and cryptics and leaving the remands out. i'm not a big fan of remand, in fact i really don't like the card but it does what it does and can be a good role player when used properly with discard in a tempo shell.
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
I'd like to find room for a cryptic and another slaughter pact but i'm really not sure what to cut, i think move a liliana to the board, what do you guys think. from a value / power perspective which the deck is all about the weakest card is quicken, but i don't like running just one, it pairs extremely well with discard and leak in a hand and makes snap discard an effective answers in the top deck war but maybe they should just be slaughter pact and cryptic, also good in the late game top deck war?
current:
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
2 island
2 swamp
2 forest
2 watery grave
2 overgrown tomb
1 breeding pool
3 creeping tar pit
2 tectonic edge
4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
4 dark confidant
2 scavenging ooze
2 vendilion clique
3 mana leak
2 maelstrom pulse
3 abrupt decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 thoughtseize
1 slaughter pact
2 quicken