does anyone have any experience with a list like this? Its the first one I've seen where I haven't seriously questioned not running green and looks awesome. Can you play a packrat, hold priority and discard a card so they'd need two removal spells to finish off your end game or does that not work?
Can you play a packrat, hold priority and discard a card so they'd need two removal spells to finish off your end game or does that not work?
Yes you can make a rat in response to removal. I think Pack Rat is possibly better than brimaz, the only time I really want brimaz over the rat is when you need to block something immediately, even then I'd still want 2-3 rats.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Brimaz is better vs. Bolt and Brimaz is better before turn 5. Basically every removal spell in the format kills the rat. Brimaz also functions better vs. a deck like Twin where you want to keep a hand full of answers while still providing pressure.
I am not at all sold on the rat, I think he's too slow and too mana intensive for a removal heavy format like Modern. He works well in standard because the removal is both heavily costed (3 mana though there are some conditional removal spells on 2) and not in the same quantity as Modern decks (decks like Jund and UWR run 12+ ways of killing the rat the turn he comes out or the turn after).
Brimaz is better vs. Bolt and Brimaz is better before turn 5. Basically every removal spell in the format kills the rat. Brimaz also functions better vs. a deck like Twin where you want to keep a hand full of answers while still providing pressure.
I am not at all sold on the rat, I think he's too slow and too mana intensive for a removal heavy format like Modern. He works well in standard because the removal is both heavily costed (3 mana though there are some conditional removal spells on 2) and not in the same quantity as Modern decks (decks like Jund and UWR run 12+ ways of killing the rat the turn he comes out or the turn after).
Sure brimaz is better on his own against bolt, and he is a better defensive creature on the turn you play him, as the rat is just a 1/1 by itself.
But the format is not as full of removal as you make it seem like it is. Against pod, if you play the rat on turn 5 how are they going to kill it? They only have 2 abrupt decay, 2 redcaps, and 1 orzhov pontiff. Pack rat is way better against pod than brimaz not just because of that, but because brimaz cannot attack into clogged up boards, while the rat can become larger than your opponent's creatures, and it will still make a token that can block, so it's still defensive. We already have a really good matchup against affinity and twin, and pack rat helps us against pod which is the other of the "big 3".
The closing speed is generally the same for both, although the rat can close faster if it's dropped on turn 2 (which isn't optimal unless you know the way is clear or you have multiples). However, the rat gives an opponent 2 draw steps for an answer, while brimaz gives them 4.
t3 cast brimaz
t4 attack for 4
t5 attack for 5
t6 attack for 6
t7 attack for 7
t5 cast the rat, make a token
t6 make 2 tokens attack for 8
t7 make 1 token attack for 15
And if you cast the rat on turn 2 and it lives:
t2 rat
t3 token, attack for 2
t4 token, attack for 6
t5 token, attack for 12
The rat also lets us hold up removal for twin, pod, what-have-you, while still letting us build our board instead of just "wasting" a turn by holding up removal instead of doing something proactive.
The rat is also arguably better against uwr because brimaz is easily pathed, while the rat requires 2 removal spells unless they cast anger or a wrath the turn the rat comes in play. It's easy to play around anger with the rat because you cast it turn 5 if they don't kill it make a token at their end step then untap and make 2 tokens. They can still bolt one of them then anger everything away, but you still attacked for 8. Brimaz can't attack through walls, angels, or colonades, while rats can.
against jund the rat is also better, we have 6 targeted discard spells (up to 10 if you play scullers). These are quickly dead cards game 1, being able to turn them into rats is ridiculously powerful, as well as dumping uneeded lands and other cards. Sure their 1 maelstrom pulse kills all the rats, but they are drawing to a 1-of. Brimaz dies to abrupt decay and Liliana if you don't have any other creatures out. if you play pack rat turn 5 it isn't susceptible to either of those.
The rat may take 2 or 3 turns to take over the game, but it is ridiculously hard for an opponent to deal with if you can get it to that point, and with all of our discard it's really not hard to get the game to that point. Plus most opponents are willing to blow an anger, pulse, other sweeper on lingering souls tokens.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I'm not sold on rat, he's too mana dependent and also cards dependent for the discards, dies for anger which I like using in SB, I really don't like discarding removals like that, specially against pod and twin, which can combo at any moment and also he's a too late game creature for Modern.
I've just decided to increase the numbers of Brimaz from 3 to 4 and decided to cut swords off because after so many matches playing with it since I started playing with this deck, I just realized they are too slow (specially after shaman's banning) and anti-synergic with the Lilianas . To compensate the cut of the lifegain from the swords I've decided to increase the number of Helixes from 2 to 4. I really like lavamancer, but because of these changes I had to lower him as just a 1-of (he already won me a lot of games, I'm not yet 100% sure on this, but I needed to make space).
About the 4th Brimaz, when I started to see some lists with 4 Brimazes I really disliked, but after a lot of thinking and testing, I thought about replacing a sword for an old friend of mine, elspeth, knight-errant to try to keep the number of pressure cards, but just realized that Brimaz does 2 Elspeth's abilities at the same time and in a better way since the token comes with vigilance and attacking and he's also 1 less cmc, then I've just decided to try 4 of it and liked so far.
In case somebody asks how I tested 4 Brimazes if I don't have the 4th in paper. I play also in mtgo with the same deck and got the 4th there.
So this is my beauty!
(Hero is a temporary replacement while I wait for my 4th Brimaz to arrive)
I'm not sold on rat, he's too mana dependent and also cards dependent for the discards, dies for anger which I like using in SB, I really don't like discarding removals like that, specially against pod and twin, which can combo at any moment and also he's a too late game creature for Modern.
I've just decided to increase the numbers of Brimaz from 3 to 4 and decided to cut swords off because after so many matches playing with it since I started playing with this deck, I just realized they are too slow (specially after shaman's banning) and anti-synergic with the Lilianas . To compensate the cut of the lifegain from the swords I've decided to increase the number of Helixes from 2 to 4. I really like lavamancer, but because of these changes I had to lower him as just a 1-of (he already won me a lot of games, I'm not yet 100% sure on this, but I needed to make space).
About the 4th Brimaz, when I started to see some lists with 4 Brimazes I really disliked, but after a lot of thinking and testing, I thought about replacing a sword for an old friend of mine, elspeth, knight-errant to try to keep the number of pressure cards, but just realized that Brimaz does 2 Elspeth's abilities at the same time and in a better way since the token comes with vigilance and attacking and he's also 1 less cmc, then I've just decided to try 4 of it and liked so far.
So this is my beauty:
(Hero is a temporary replacement while I wait for my 4th Brimaz to arrive)
In case somebody asks how I tested 4 Brimazes if I don't have the 4th in paper. I play also in mtgo with the same deck and got the 4th there.
Looks really good man!
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
Nice! Always exciting to get a deck done in real life! Elspeth does have a few advantages over brimaz number 4. Being a walker, she doesn't eat removal like path or abrupt decay. I think having four brimaz might be a bit much with the legend rule making multiples really awkward. Worth testing though I guess.
Pack rat seems really really slow and card intensive... You can't conceivably race a reasonable pod draw by going all in on rat instead of trying to disrupt their pod chain. They'll just combo out before you actually get a relevant army. Or just play Linvala. It's kinda a gimmicky card that got its time in limited and standard but is not efficient enough to warrant play over other options in this deck.
Would Sorin be better than Elspeth? Ultimate a are never really a thing, and Sorin's tokens have lifelink (very relevant). Also Sorin's -2 is huge for 2-4 creatures on board.
1 Intangible Virtue might also do wonders if you draw it at the right time. Or you can pitch it to Pack Rat later on.
Have Sorin/Elspeth been considered taking over Brimaz's spot?
Costing 1 more is huge but it blanks abrupt decay vs. a threat generator.
Would Sorin be better than Elspeth? Ultimate a are never really a thing, and Sorin's tokens have lifelink (very relevant). Also Sorin's -2 is huge for 2-4 creatures on board.
1 Intangible Virtue might also do wonders if you draw it at the right time. Or you can pitch it to Pack Rat later on.
Have Sorin/Elspeth been considered taking over Brimaz's spot?
Costing 1 more is huge but it blanks abrupt decay vs. a threat generator.
Elspeth > Sorin.
+3/+3 and flying is nothing to scoff at when your opponent has a ground blocker and you can get that last points of lethal in.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
+3/+3 and flying is nothing to scoff at when your opponent has a ground blocker and you can get that last points of lethal in.
I have played with both in this deck, and Sorin is really only better if you are playing heavy tokens like bitterblossom or squadron hawk. Elspeth is just a much faster clock than Sorin, and wins the game with authority.
I've used to play 1 Elspeth, 1 Ajani and 3 Lilis. And I really prefer Brimaz over elspeth, if 1 brimaz gets pathed, you just play another, I don't like putting Elspeth because I just feel like there would be too many cmc4 in the deck, I'm already playing 2 Ajanis. There are only 2 tier decks in the format which use abrupt, If the opponent paths at least you get 1 land and if you manage to attack once before get pathed, you still leave 1 token, hehe. And between us, Brimaz hits harder than Elspeth. I'd love it to see Elspeth in a build with Mirran Crusader maybe, but I just find Brimaz better than Mirran.
Hey guys, I just picked up a playset of bobs but have no goyfs, so I've been looking at dega and BW lists that use dark confidant. I'm currently exploring this setup - note that the sideboard is a complete mess atm as I don't really know the decks good/bad matchups. hide and seek is cute but 4 is almost certainly too many.
It's tested decently. figure of destiny never goes past 4/4, student never goes past 3/3 first strike (although its realistic to go higher with both in a longer game). The focus on 1 drops reduces the pain from bob and makes ranger of eos a legit reload card. But I don't see many others promoting this approach so it could be that its just better to take the pain and run scullers/thalias/lilianas etc.
If anyone has experience or thoughts on this build though, I'd appreciate it!
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Your deck is much more like a Boros Aggro deck splashes black for Dark Confidant/Discard/Souls.
I like Ranger of Eos, but I agree it can be hard to find R/B/W one-drops that give the needed utility to end the game. Death's Shadow could be a 1-of tutor target you could surprise the opponent with.
If you were going with the grindier midrange decks, you would probably have more disruptive/card generating cards like:
I haven't seen many Ranger of Eos, but I would like to see a list of good 1-drops that actually work in modern.
Your 1-drop oriented list can do fine and grow in the mid-late game, but they still die to Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay/Path to Exile and have little utility to stop Tarmogoyf/Celestial Collonade/Splinter Twin/ and other common finishers.
Yeah a few more games in and they are also really bad vs electrolyze and I actually just got destroyed by a burn deck with keldon megaliths, which shut down basically my whole deck...
It does also suck knowing you level either and they'll just get bolted
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Yeah a few more games in and they are also really bad vs electrolyze and I actually just got destroyed by a burn deck with keldon megaliths, which shut down basically my whole deck...
It does also suck knowing you level either and they'll just get bolted
Brimaz is a massive addition to your deck. Almost always commands either a Path or a 2 for 1 removal-wise.
Blightning is too expensive, it was only good in Jund due too BBE. Castigate is meh, I think Thoughtseize and IoK are just better. As for Geth's Verdict, as much as I love 2 cmc sac effects at instant speed, I still think situational spells like that are a bit too unreliable.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
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Yes you can make a rat in response to removal. I think Pack Rat is possibly better than brimaz, the only time I really want brimaz over the rat is when you need to block something immediately, even then I'd still want 2-3 rats.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I am not at all sold on the rat, I think he's too slow and too mana intensive for a removal heavy format like Modern. He works well in standard because the removal is both heavily costed (3 mana though there are some conditional removal spells on 2) and not in the same quantity as Modern decks (decks like Jund and UWR run 12+ ways of killing the rat the turn he comes out or the turn after).
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
Sure brimaz is better on his own against bolt, and he is a better defensive creature on the turn you play him, as the rat is just a 1/1 by itself.
But the format is not as full of removal as you make it seem like it is. Against pod, if you play the rat on turn 5 how are they going to kill it? They only have 2 abrupt decay, 2 redcaps, and 1 orzhov pontiff. Pack rat is way better against pod than brimaz not just because of that, but because brimaz cannot attack into clogged up boards, while the rat can become larger than your opponent's creatures, and it will still make a token that can block, so it's still defensive. We already have a really good matchup against affinity and twin, and pack rat helps us against pod which is the other of the "big 3".
The closing speed is generally the same for both, although the rat can close faster if it's dropped on turn 2 (which isn't optimal unless you know the way is clear or you have multiples). However, the rat gives an opponent 2 draw steps for an answer, while brimaz gives them 4.
t3 cast brimaz
t4 attack for 4
t5 attack for 5
t6 attack for 6
t7 attack for 7
t5 cast the rat, make a token
t6 make 2 tokens attack for 8
t7 make 1 token attack for 15
And if you cast the rat on turn 2 and it lives:
t2 rat
t3 token, attack for 2
t4 token, attack for 6
t5 token, attack for 12
The rat also lets us hold up removal for twin, pod, what-have-you, while still letting us build our board instead of just "wasting" a turn by holding up removal instead of doing something proactive.
The rat is also arguably better against uwr because brimaz is easily pathed, while the rat requires 2 removal spells unless they cast anger or a wrath the turn the rat comes in play. It's easy to play around anger with the rat because you cast it turn 5 if they don't kill it make a token at their end step then untap and make 2 tokens. They can still bolt one of them then anger everything away, but you still attacked for 8. Brimaz can't attack through walls, angels, or colonades, while rats can.
against jund the rat is also better, we have 6 targeted discard spells (up to 10 if you play scullers). These are quickly dead cards game 1, being able to turn them into rats is ridiculously powerful, as well as dumping uneeded lands and other cards. Sure their 1 maelstrom pulse kills all the rats, but they are drawing to a 1-of. Brimaz dies to abrupt decay and Liliana if you don't have any other creatures out. if you play pack rat turn 5 it isn't susceptible to either of those.
The rat may take 2 or 3 turns to take over the game, but it is ridiculously hard for an opponent to deal with if you can get it to that point, and with all of our discard it's really not hard to get the game to that point. Plus most opponents are willing to blow an anger, pulse, other sweeper on lingering souls tokens.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I've just decided to increase the numbers of Brimaz from 3 to 4 and decided to cut swords off because after so many matches playing with it since I started playing with this deck, I just realized they are too slow (specially after shaman's banning) and anti-synergic with the Lilianas . To compensate the cut of the lifegain from the swords I've decided to increase the number of Helixes from 2 to 4. I really like lavamancer, but because of these changes I had to lower him as just a 1-of (he already won me a lot of games, I'm not yet 100% sure on this, but I needed to make space).
About the 4th Brimaz, when I started to see some lists with 4 Brimazes I really disliked, but after a lot of thinking and testing, I thought about replacing a sword for an old friend of mine, elspeth, knight-errant to try to keep the number of pressure cards, but just realized that Brimaz does 2 Elspeth's abilities at the same time and in a better way since the token comes with vigilance and attacking and he's also 1 less cmc, then I've just decided to try 4 of it and liked so far.
In case somebody asks how I tested 4 Brimazes if I don't have the 4th in paper. I play also in mtgo with the same deck and got the 4th there.
So this is my beauty!
(Hero is a temporary replacement while I wait for my 4th Brimaz to arrive)
Looks really good man!
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
Pack rat seems really really slow and card intensive... You can't conceivably race a reasonable pod draw by going all in on rat instead of trying to disrupt their pod chain. They'll just combo out before you actually get a relevant army. Or just play Linvala. It's kinda a gimmicky card that got its time in limited and standard but is not efficient enough to warrant play over other options in this deck.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=356648
1 Intangible Virtue might also do wonders if you draw it at the right time. Or you can pitch it to Pack Rat later on.
Have Sorin/Elspeth been considered taking over Brimaz's spot?
Costing 1 more is huge but it blanks abrupt decay vs. a threat generator.
Elspeth > Sorin.
+3/+3 and flying is nothing to scoff at when your opponent has a ground blocker and you can get that last points of lethal in.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I have played with both in this deck, and Sorin is really only better if you are playing heavy tokens like bitterblossom or squadron hawk. Elspeth is just a much faster clock than Sorin, and wins the game with authority.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=356648
4 student of warfare
3 figure of destiny
3 grim lavamancer
4 dark confidant
2 lingering souls
2 ranger of eos
1 ajani vengeant
Removal (19)
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path to exile
1 boros charm
1 doom blade
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 arid mesa
4 marsh flats
3 sacred foundry
2 blood crypt
2 godless shrine
1 clifftop retreat
1 slayer's stronghold
3 plains
1 swamp
1 mountain
2 aven mindcensor
4 hide // seek
2 rakdos charm
3 duress
4 pillar of flame
It's tested decently. figure of destiny never goes past 4/4, student never goes past 3/3 first strike (although its realistic to go higher with both in a longer game). The focus on 1 drops reduces the pain from bob and makes ranger of eos a legit reload card. But I don't see many others promoting this approach so it could be that its just better to take the pain and run scullers/thalias/lilianas etc.
If anyone has experience or thoughts on this build though, I'd appreciate it!
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Your deck is much more like a Boros Aggro deck splashes black for Dark Confidant/Discard/Souls.
I like Ranger of Eos, but I agree it can be hard to find R/B/W one-drops that give the needed utility to end the game.
Death's Shadow could be a 1-of tutor target you could surprise the opponent with.
If you were going with the grindier midrange decks, you would probably have more disruptive/card generating cards like:
I haven't seen many Ranger of Eos, but I would like to see a list of good 1-drops that actually work in modern.
Your 1-drop oriented list can do fine and grow in the mid-late game, but they still die to Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay/Path to Exile and have little utility to stop Tarmogoyf/Celestial Collonade/Splinter Twin/ and other common finishers.
It does also suck knowing you level either and they'll just get bolted
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
Brimaz is a massive addition to your deck. Almost always commands either a Path or a 2 for 1 removal-wise.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
-2 Swords
-2 Path to Exile
+1 Lightning Helix
+1 Terminate
+2 Hero of Bladehold
OR if you don't like Hero of Bladehold...
-2 Swords
-2 Path to Exile
+1 Lightning Helix
+3 Kitchen Finks
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Blightning is too expensive, it was only good in Jund due too BBE. Castigate is meh, I think Thoughtseize and IoK are just better. As for Geth's Verdict, as much as I love 2 cmc sac effects at instant speed, I still think situational spells like that are a bit too unreliable.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi