A couple of nights ago I started working on a red devotion deck to get some oomph out of Fanatic of Mogis, and came up with a deck that was really fun. It was so fun that my initial name for the deck was "Woo Hoo!", but after looking at the list and thinking about what the deck does I realized that I had inadvertently made a Mono-Red version of Death & Taxes (a deck I have played in modern for a couple years). After a week or so of testing I began to gravitate towards a snow build due to the improved creature removal that Skred gave me, so it moved slightly away from that D&T soul into something else.
Mission:
RSD is first and foremost a deck created to maximize devotion in order to do big things with Fanatic of Mogis and anything else that Theros might send us, so rule #1 is the more permanents and R in the cost the better. If there is only one in the cost, or none for that matter, then it better be doing something no other card can and that is needed in the deck. RSD can be a straight beatdown deck at times, but it is not aggro. It has control elements in order to protect your permanents, but it is not really aimed at controlling your opponent. There are taxing elements, but the cards themselves are quite playable even if the tax never comes up. The name of the game is get out red permanents and keep them out.
The Play:
As I mentioned before you can be the beatdown, or suffice with tenderizing your opponent for a bigger play later. Of course the cherry play is dropping Fanatic when you are truly devoted to blood you want to bathe your enemies in. The deck avoids counters handily, punishes flashback and W/ spells, and can easily side in a Blood Moon if need be. It sits comfortably at 4 lands so sacking an Edge is no worry either. I think the biggest issue that jumps out at me right now are sweepers, but it is early days for the deck.
The Curve:
Even though the deck is not aggro it still wants to curve out well. As it stands the curve for RSD looks like:
1:**********
2:*************
3:********
4:******
The curve for the Non-Snow build:
1:********
2:***************
3:*********
4:******
The Cards:
I initially had Purphoros in the MD, but it started to feel like a win-more in the deck, but I am not totally ready to dump the deity yet so it is in the SB. Moving it to the SB allowed me to lower the curve a skosh by adding a couple of Legion's Initiative for repeat offending. If had more Fulminator Mage on MTGO I would probably run 2-3, but it is just too expensive for me to seriously think about it as an option.
Why white? The main reason I wanted white from the start was flicker effects, but I really do not want to splash deep at all outside of red.
Missed it by that much:
I looked at all cards less than 5 cmc that had at least two red mana symbols in the cost, so there were a lot that I looked at and did not like for the deck, but there were a few that I liked but not enough to bump another card.
Burning-Tree Emissary: I thought about it, but the bot I was buying from did not have them and found I liked what I had for my two-drops as is. BTE might be worth trying, but it feels more aggro to me and I think I would rather my creatures to do more than race.
Ashenmoor Gouger: This would likely replace Ram-Gang, but I love the fear that BRG puts in opponents attacking on the ground. Gouger is more resilient for sure, but I think I can win with quantity even if I have losses. My paper deck uses this card, but mostly because I have to pick up some BRG from my FLGS.
Skred: I love Skred, and in the initial B&T version I was not really comfortable running more than twelve spells that do not contribute to devotion, and Bolt won by way of versatility, while Magma Jet won due to Scry being great with Chandra. After testing I was having trouble with things like big metal wurms, so I made a snow build for the extra punch. So far it is an improvement, I do miss being able to go for the head to bring home a game. The more I test it the more I love it, even without Reckoner.
Boros Reckoner: I don't want to buy them on MTGO. I do however own them in paper and have added them to that deck. Testing has been very limited, but it looks strong.
Wild Cantor: Not an imposing card on the battlefield, but it has a R and it can accelerate in a pinch while still being a one-drop. I think I would only add this if I dropped a couple of four drops.
Blood Moon (main deck): This for me is a meta call. A few months back I was testing and tuning a Moon deck, and found that it was not having enough of an impact on my opponent's game far too often. Red is not an uncommon color in the meta, and most decks have some way to work around it. There are a few decks that might really hurt from a Blood Moon, so it is still in the SB, and if the meta changes then I will happily move it. Update: My current testing is running into a lot of decks that are really hurt by an early Blood Moon, so I added it to the MD of RSD and it has been really devastating. I have yet to loose a game in which I land a turn 3 Blood Moon.
EDIT: actually I can't understand the use of Skred to be honest...
Well, the basic idea is that in a lot of decks that use red if you are running it almost exclusively there is little reason not to run Snow-Covered Mountains and include Skred as huge removal. Compound this with the printing of Boros Reckoner and you have massive burn to the face as well, but I do not have the freedom to run as many non-permanents as most red decks can, so I have to maximize those spots with versatility. I also do not want to invest in Reckoner online.
Am i missing something or are the white splash solely for disenchant? Which, in my opinion, should be Wear // Tear
EDIT: Oh, now i saw the Stonecloaker just below -_- nvm
Yea. To be honest it is sort of an experiment. If Stonecloaker does not end up earning it's keep then I will likely drop white entirely and run Shattering Spree instead of Disenchant and a couple Ratchet Bomb (or Engineered Explosives if I decide to finally buy them) unless I start really seeing Enchantments I need to deal with efficiently.
Man it's decks like these that make me wish I invested more into red and had all those staples to just build. It looks really good.
I personally prefer BRG over Ashenmoor Gouger simply because of the haste and since it's such a horrible thing to block. Sure a Goyf can take it down, but not without bringing itself down by about half its potential.
Have you considered Ghostway as a possible "Oops you lose" with Purphoros or Fanatic of Mogis?
Man it's decks like these that make me wish I invested more into red and had all those staples to just build. It looks really good.
Yea, I was going off of stuff I had too, and then started filling in holes once things started to pan out. It is not really that expensive of a build though, at least I don't think it is...not on MTGO anyway. Well, I suppose Chandra is, and having that virtual CA has pulled me out of harms way a couple of times.
Have you considered Ghostway as a possible "Oops you lose" with Purphoros or Fanatic of Mogis?
I had not thought of it, though I think that Legion's Initiative might be a better bet as it serves three roles (R permanent, pump, flicker). It might be a little on the cute side, but might be worth a couple slots to try, and I am pretty sure I have them.
Hey I was browsing and saw your thread. I've always wanted to see a Death and Taxes Deck using Red, so I borrowed a couple of the ideas from your thread and mixed it with my current D&T build. If anyone's interested in using this as a jumping off point for R/W D&T feel free.
From my initial testing of Legion's Initiative it seems to really thrive in a deck that's already running a lot of ETB effects so cards like Blade Splicer et al. really work well since it not only protects your deck from sweepers but also allows you to reuse your entire board's ETB triggers. (I got to do some sweet exile tricks by stacking Flicker and Fiend Hunter trigger's after using Legion's Initiative Boros Charm also functions really well as both sweep protection and reach when you need it.
I realize that this isn't really the same deck as the one you've got in your OP but when you mentioned Legion's Initiative I wanted to give it a try. Feel free to critique any of the card choices
This is great!! I actually brewed myself up a R Devotion deck, I call it RedDevotionWins, get it ? Saw this posted close to my deck so figured I'd pop in and say Hi.
A couple of nights ago I started working on a red devotion deck to get some oomph out of Fanatic of Mogis, and came up with a deck that was really fun. It was so fun that my initial name for the deck was "Woo Hoo!", but after looking at the list and thinking about what the deck does I realized that I had inadvertently made a Mono-Red version of Death & Taxes (a deck I have played in modern for a couple years).
You could call it Red Aggro I suppose, but the lack of a truly aggressive curve in exchange for lots of RR in the casting costs makes it really play differently. You can be the beat-down, or suffice with tenderizing your opponent for a bigger play later. Of course the cherry play is dropping Fanatic when you are truly devoted to blood you want to bathe your enemies in. The deck avoids counters handily, punishes flashback and W/ spells, and can easily side in a Blood Moon if need be. It sits comfortably at 4 lands so sacking an Edge is no worry either.
Even though the deck is not aggro it still wants to curve out well. As it stands the curve looks like:
1:********
2:*************
3:*********
4:********
I have a feeling that purphoros might be win-more in the deck, but I am not totally ready to dump the deity yet. If I did I might try out Giant Solifuge in it's place, or I might lower the curve a skosh by adding a couple of one-drops. If had more Fulminator Mage on MTGO I would probably run 2-3, but it is just too expensive for me to seriously think about it as an option.
Why white? I wanted enchantment removal to begin with (though perhaps it is not really necessary), but really I just wanted to try out bouncing Fanatic in some games. I could replace Prophuros with Restoration Angel, but I hate the fact that it would be a card that I would hold until I played a Fanatic. It was also suggested to me to look at Boros Charm, but I am not sure that I would run it for anything other than the Indestructibility aspect.
I thought about Burning-Tree Emissary, but the bot I was buying from did not have them and found I liked what I had for my two-drops as is. BTE might be worth trying, but it feels more aggro to me and I think I would rather my creatures to do more than race.
I looked at all cards less than 5 cmc that had at least two red mana symbols in the cost, so there were a lot that I looked at and did not like for the deck, but there were a few that I liked but not enough to bump another card.
Ashenmoor Gouger: This would likely replace Ram-Gang, but I love the fear that BRG puts in opponents attacking on the ground. Gouger is more resilient for sure, but I think I can win with quantity even if I have losses.
Skred: I love Skred, but I am really not comfortable running more than twelve spells that do not contribute to devotion, and Bolt wins by way of versatility, while Magma Jet wins due to Scry being great with Chandra. I think if I had any Boros Reckoner on MTGO I might give Skred a shot in the deck, but I don't want to buy them.
Wild Cantor: Not an imposing card on the battlefield, but it has a R and it can accelerate in a pinch while still being a one-drop. I think I would only add this if I dropped a couple of four drops.
Those are just to two I have been asked about already, but I am willing to consider anything I want to buy or own if a good argument can be made.
Hey I was browsing and saw your thread. I've always wanted to see a Death and Taxes Deck using Red, so I borrowed a couple of the ideas from your thread and mixed it with my current D&T build. If anyone's interested in using this as a jumping off point for R/W D&T feel free.
From my initial testing of Legion's Initiative it seems to really thrive in a deck that's already running a lot of ETB effects so cards like Blade Splicer et al. really work well since it not only protects your deck from sweepers but also allows you to reuse your entire board's ETB triggers. (I got to do some sweet exile tricks by stacking Flicker and Fiend Hunter trigger's after using Legion's Initiative Boros Charm also functions really well as both sweep protection and reach when you need it.
I realize that this isn't really the same deck as the one you've got in your OP but when you mentioned Legion's Initiative I wanted to give it a try. Feel free to critique any of the card choices
I certainly value your experience with Legion's Initiative, but I am not sure that your deck is exactly what I am going for here. You are playing a RW version of D&T and using some of the cards directly from that deck, and frankly there are some synergy issues there too. The deck I am trying to evolve here is a red devotion deck that just happens to have the same basic structure as a D&T deck, but uses different cards. I like D&T, I have been playing it for a long time, but dipping too much into that deck results in some forced interactions that I don't like.
Not to mention, I want to see LOTS of R in play, so my little splash of white is purely for utility.
You should bring your build over to the D&T thread, and we can talk more about your deck there.
This is great!! I actually brewed myself up a R Devotion deck, I call it RedDevotionWins, get it ? Saw this posted close to my deck so figured I'd pop in and say Hi.
Glad to see I am not the only one who was inspired by fanatic. Your build is much more aggro than mine, I intentionally left out Goblin Guide for example. I want an alpha Fanatic with as many red permanents still in play as I can get- and in order to do that I need some control. I feel like purely aggro throws too much away to really hit hard with devotion. It is also just not my style.
Well, the SB you see is simply an autopilot SB that I tend to start with when building the deck. I wanted to try Stonecloaker out in a few games so I stuck it in the SB, and since I was using a bit of white I just tossed in Disenchant as utility.
It sounds like there is some interest in the deck, so I think I will beef up the first post with a little more information about what the deck parts do and why. If more interest comes along I can even make it into a primer, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I have to go finish WWZ, but I will do some updating in the next couple of hours with changes to the deck and SB.
Why isn't Blood Moon maindeck? It seems like it crushes most decks in the format. It would be really good with Simian Spirit guide to get it out on turn 2, which might not be a bad inclusion anyways so you could get a turn 3 Chandra and other stuff like that.
Why isn't Blood Moon maindeck? It seems like it crushes most decks in the format. It would be really good with Simian Spirit guide to get it out on turn 2, which might not be a bad inclusion anyways so you could get a turn 3 Chandra and other stuff like that.
I updated the OP and added the Blood Moon answer to it since I think it is a reasonable question to ask.
SSG is great, but it plays almost always like an instant so it would have to take the place of one of the instants in order to keep the balance right, and I don't see those as easily dropped. If it took the place of a permanent it would be taking out something that would provide better devotion even if SSG was hard-cast as a creature. I think I would rather run Wild Cantor if I was going for a fast four-drop, but I am not convinced that is a rout I need to take. This deck clogs the board with troublesome creatures pretty quickly as it is.
What do you think of including figure of destiny and Nykthos in this deck? Is it too cute? Because if it works it seems like it would be quite insane.
I think Nykthos is worth looking at in general (don't have any yet). Figure with Nykthos could be interesting, but it feels win-more and not worth the dilution of devotion to me.
Just an option for SB: Leyline of Punishment.
You can start the match with RR devotion still on the board.
Yea, I looked at it but it did not have enough board presence for me.
You said the deck sit well at 4 lands... so why don't play Seismic Assault?
Thought about that too, and it is still an interesting idea I might try, though I just want to clarify that I don't necessarily need to sit on 4 lands (three producing red), but I can survive it and still tempo out just fine.
I`ve been playing something similar in Boros colours with a focus on white so.
The only thing so far, that screams mono red, is the devotion dude. The question is, is that enough? I dont think so, i believe the DMG must be really good, but you have to harness the mono red character more.
I really think it is. I have ended a LOT of games by dropping 9+ lethal Fanatic that was uncounterable, and even if I don't the game is all but over at that point. In a format with so much removal it is a really solid play.
I would really play the blood moon MB, i have it and it is amazing. The only thing, that saves my playgroup from it, is the knowkedge that i play it, so the fetch basics.
I assume you read my rational above. As I said it is a meta call, and in your playgroup or meta it may be the right call, but in my experience on MTGO it is not.
I would consider chandras phoenix, nice DMG, devition and wonderful with the pw.
It is high on my test list, but there are no three-drops that have been underperforming so far. That said i will probably give it a whirl before too long.
How do you deal with pyroclasm? It is true, you tax UW a great deal, but they splash red, Abd pyroclasm can kill nearly your entire board.
I'm gonna be honest here, I simply hope I can keep up the pressure, or that I have Legion's Initiative in play (of course they are not likely to cast 'clasm if it is). It is a pain in the rear that I am putting off dealing with until later in testing.
Boros reconer would be great here,also with skred and devotion.
As I already stated, I have no interest in buying them online. Besides, adding Skred means I dilute devotion or I take out one of my other instants. While Skred can be a more powerful Bolt it is highly situational to me having Boros Reckoner in play for it to have that versatility.
I have been testing more, and I really like playing this deck the more I play it. I have made a new build that is less like the soul of D&T that I have been testing and really liking. I was really having trouble with giant metal wurms so I decided to swap out Bolt for Skred and add Snow-Covered lands. I also was seeing that the meta I was battling was hurt more by Moon than I previously had encountered, so that went in the the MD. Lastly I decided to give Seismic Assault a try, though so far the only thing it has done is rocket up the devotion count, which is not a bad thing.
See...I listen to people and genuinely test reasonable suggestions, so keep tossing me suggestions.
SB- This is always sort of a mess in all my early decks. The decks I have had most trouble with are Merfolk (that stupid pro red devotion powered token maker is redonkulous), and RG Tron. For Tron I have Pithing Needle, but I needed some artifact destruction too. I am giving the Duergar a shot, though it is slow and does not contribute much to devotion count. but it contributes more than Shattering Spree. For Merfolk I really just have to race them...I am not sure I see many other options.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that all changes are in the first post, and I updated my position on some of the cards too.
Really sure about this choice? Not better to drop Magma Jet?
No, Scry is just too critical in a deck that has no draw, and MJ makes Chandra's +0 much less of a gamble.
Oh, and this is not work...this is one of the most fun decks I have played in a while. I will have to buy a bunch of cards and proxy a few that are in other decks if I decide to make this in paper, but if I can keep improving it I will gladly do it.
Hey Worm (and everyone):
I'm looking at playing with this, and I have reckoners on MTGO. If cost/budget wasn't a concern, just going for maximum competitiveness, what do you think of the following list:
Tweaked the manabase to be more snow-heavy (because now we have reckoners+skred), got rid of Blood Knights (were fairly weak in my testing, would you agree?), reckoners and gougers hit hard, Hammer seems really good in this deck both for haste and for continued steam.
The biggest change that I'm not sure about is removing Aether Vial. I removed it for a few reasons.
A) This archtype traditionally doesn't have trouble with control. Our threat density is so high, and Legion's Initiative is so powerful vs sweepers, we don't really need the "uncounterability" part, because that's solving a problem we don't have.
B) The creature count was below what is traditionally considered the 'minimum' for vial. For older formats, the competitive scene has more or less deemed that you need a bare minimum of ~20 critters for vial to be worth it. Obviously this isn't a hard number, but we were playing a little low there. I replaced it with BTE, which is a similarly tempo-oriented dude, plays well with Hammer lategame, and helps with devotion.
It doesnt give devotion and we don't have early access to white, depending on the list. I feel like we can't play grunt for the same reason Hatebears doesn't play it (and they can even reset the upkeep if they want): It's unreliable, and isn't big enough to make up for it.
That supposed to be a dig? I make original builds all the time and post them here.
Wouldnt Goblin Guide be an auto include here? What about that Stromkirk Noble?
This is not an aggro deck, so racing out with card quality at the expense of potentially giving our opponent some CA is not worth the trade-off. What we want is red mana symbol concentration on quality permanents. I have found no red one-drop permanents that I help the win enough to run.
Tweaked the manabase to be more snow-heavy (because now we have reckoners+skred), got rid of Blood Knights (were fairly weak in my testing, would you agree?), reckoners and gougers hit hard, Hammer seems really good in this deck both for haste and for continued steam.
The biggest change that I'm not sure about is removing Aether Vial. I removed it for a few reasons.
A) This archtype traditionally doesn't have trouble with control. Our threat density is so high, and Legion's Initiative is so powerful vs sweepers, we don't really need the "uncounterability" part, because that's solving a problem we don't have.
B) The creature count was below what is traditionally considered the 'minimum' for vial. For older formats, the competitive scene has more or less deemed that you need a bare minimum of ~20 critters for vial to be worth it. Obviously this isn't a hard number, but we were playing a little low there. I replaced it with BTE, which is a similarly tempo-oriented dude, plays well with Hammer lategame, and helps with devotion.
What do you think?
I think you are making the mistake that I keep seeing and thinking of this deck as an aggro deck because of the fact that it is red. We do care about counters for one big reason, Fanatic of Mogis. It is not just another card, it is tremendous value even if you are not casting it for an alpha strike, and if your opponent counters it you have given up a huge tempo gain. I have had several matches where my opponent (playing blue) sits there with the same 3 cards in hand for most of the game, and when I ask them after the match they tell me they were counters.
Even if I am playing the beat-down, which is not quite as easy as the previous build I will admit, I want to drop my hasty beaters and get a swing out of them before they are bolted. Dropping something like Aether Membrane midgame against Delver and making it stick is great, as it stops beats or forces them to 2 to 1 for removal. Playing BTE, for example, is only a good play when you are casting something else as well, and if that is countered you now have just played a vanilla 2/2.
I understand that the creature count is low for many Vial decks, if I had made this build on paper by the numbers I would never have built it this way. Since, however, it is a build that evolved to it's current state I can say that I have had no more issues dropping threats with Vial than I did with the other build. I like Vial here, and any game that I draw it early enough becomes much more in my favor. I think that it might be perfectly viable to run 3x Vial/1SB because we often only really want to see one per game.
I think you are making the mistake that I keep seeing and thinking of this deck as an aggro deck because of the fact that it is red. We do care about counters for one big reason, Fanatic of Mogis. It is not just another card, it is tremendous value even if you are not casting it for an alpha strike, and if your opponent counters it you have given up a huge tempo gain. I have had several matches where my opponent (playing blue) sits there with the same 3 cards in hand for most of the game, and when I ask them after the match they tell me they were counters.
Fanatic is Mogis is not tempo. That is not what tempo is. It's burn on a stick, and yeah its a powerful card. But so is everything else, that's the point. (Save BTE, which IS a tempo card). The deck is powerful against control because your threat density is so high. It doesn't matter to us if the opponent is holding 3 counters at the end of the game, we just need one or two beaters getting through to win, and there isn't a control deck in the format that plays as many counters as we do threats. We will win that battle.
Even if I am playing the beat-down, which is not quite as easy as the previous build I will admit, I want to drop my hasty beaters and get a swing out of them before they are bolted. Dropping something like Aether Membrane midgame against Delver and making it stick is great, as it stops beats or forces them to 2 to 1 for removal. Playing BTE, for example, is only a good play when you are casting something else as well, and if that is countered you now have just played a vanilla 2/2.
This paragraph is saying two opposite things at once. You're saying you want all your creatures to hit before they die, and then you say you play a wall because it gives you time against delver? Those are opposite deck directions. I like the membrane, but its a control card, and this deck is not control. BTE is an aggro card. If they counter whatever you play with BTE, they were going to counter it if you played it without BTE, except now you have a 2/2 on the field that you wouldn't have otherwise.
I realize your list is around maximizing Fanatic, and making sure he hits and sticks. I just feel like you're worried about the wrong things. You dont NEED vial to get your dudes in play (as I explained above) - you have more threats then they have counters, and if you draw a threat (that gives devotion) instead of vial, it's almost always going to be more valuable in this. And then there's just some janky suboptimal creatures like the Knight and the membrane. I realize they add to the flavor, I'm not saying you should stop playing what you're playing, I'm not sure that every choice I made is the right one. I'm just a little confused about some of your choices and the explanations you're giving, and trying to work them out for the good of the deck.
perhaps tempo is not the right word, what I mean is for 4 mana (or tapping Vial) I get a 4/2 that also does 6+ points of damage to my opponent when it comes into play. It is the definition of efficiency, which is what I meant by tempo, and this gets even more pronounced when you get to flicker it.
This paragraph is saying two opposite things at once. You're saying you want all your creatures to hit before they die, and then you say you play a wall because it gives you time against delver? Those are opposite deck directions. I like the membrane, but its a control card, and this deck is not control. BTE is an aggro card. If they counter whatever you play with BTE, they were going to counter it if you played it without BTE, except now you have a 2/2 on the field that you wouldn't have otherwise.
The paragraph in question is not saying contradictory things, because I am talking about how the deck can play differently depending on the opponent. It can play the beatdown, it can play stall-control, and it uses a combo-like synergy to get the most out of one card. Wanting my haste creatures to get in at least one hit and wanting a defender with reach are not contradictory.
I realize your list is around maximizing Fanatic, and making sure he hits and sticks. I just feel like you're worried about the wrong things. You dont NEED vial to get your dudes in play (as I explained above) - you have more threats then they have counters, and if you draw a threat (that gives devotion) instead of vial, it's almost always going to be more valuable in this.
This is just not correct. I play Death and Taxes, which plays Vial not just for instant speed drop but also to get around counter magic, and in that deck we play almost entirely creatures (sans Path and Vial). In that deck I have seen plenty of counters played by my opponent.
And then there's just some janky suboptimal creatures like the Knight and the membrane. I realize they add to the flavor, I'm not saying you should stop playing what you're playing, I'm not sure that every choice I made is the right one.
I am not playing them for flavor, I am playing them because they have RR in their cost, and they serve a purpose: Blood Knight: Pro White is pretty great thanks to Path, but I also feel that First Strike is often not given the due it deserves. With FS and a two power there are a lot of creatures in Modern that it can block or be blocked by and still live (destroying the other creature).
Aether Membrane: This is admittedly a probationary creature that I just added late last night, but it has several things going for it:
1) It blocks fliers which nothing else in the deck does.
2) Even big creatures with trample don't want to attack past it due to bounce.
3) It is well out of Bolt range
I like me some Fanatic, I do. But the real power of devotion lies with Nykthos, IMO. Find a way to break them both at the same time, and I'll be a believer. Look for permanents that boost devotion and provide an outlet for all that fat Nykthos mana. Purphoros, incidentally, works fairly well...
I like me some Fanatic, I do. But the real power of devotion lies with Nykthos, IMO. Find a way to break them both at the same time, and I'll be a believer. Look for permanents that boost devotion and provide an outlet for all that fat Nykthos mana. Purphoros, incidentally, works fairly well...
I think Nykthos presents such a high ideal for what it could do, that you tend to forget that you could have won with other things before that point. I mean, I suppose I could try Nykthos and maybe one or two Banefire as yet another uncounterable win, but it begins diluting the consistency of other strategies.
Purphoros is not bad, but I still have yet to feel it is totally worthy.
Mission:
RSD is first and foremost a deck created to maximize devotion in order to do big things with Fanatic of Mogis and anything else that Theros might send us, so rule #1 is the more permanents and R in the cost the better. If there is only one in the cost, or none for that matter, then it better be doing something no other card can and that is needed in the deck. RSD can be a straight beatdown deck at times, but it is not aggro. It has control elements in order to protect your permanents, but it is not really aimed at controlling your opponent. There are taxing elements, but the cards themselves are quite playable even if the tax never comes up. The name of the game is get out red permanents and keep them out.
4 Skred
4 Magma Jet
Non-Red Spells 4
4 Aether Vial
Critters 17
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Ash Zealot
3 Blood Knight
2 Aether Membrane
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Legion's Initiative
2 Blood Moon
Land 23
12 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Purphoros, God of the forge
2 Shattering Spree
3 Sowing Salt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
Non-Red Spells
4 Aether Vial
Critters
4 Ash Zealot
3 Blood Knight
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Mindsparker
1 Fulminator Mage
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Legion's Initiative
Land:
12 Mountain
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Purphoros, God of the forge
4 Shattering Spree
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
Non-Red Spells
4 Aether Vial
Critters
4 Ash Zealot
3 Blood Knight
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Mindsparker
1 Fulminator Mage
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Land:
10 Mountain
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Teetering Peaks
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Disenchant
3 Stonecloaker
The Play:
As I mentioned before you can be the beatdown, or suffice with tenderizing your opponent for a bigger play later. Of course the cherry play is dropping Fanatic when you are truly devoted to blood you want to bathe your enemies in. The deck avoids counters handily, punishes flashback and W/ spells, and can easily side in a Blood Moon if need be. It sits comfortably at 4 lands so sacking an Edge is no worry either. I think the biggest issue that jumps out at me right now are sweepers, but it is early days for the deck.
The Curve:
Even though the deck is not aggro it still wants to curve out well. As it stands the curve for RSD looks like:
1:**********
2:*************
3:********
4:******
The curve for the Non-Snow build:
1:********
2:***************
3:*********
4:******
The Cards:
I initially had Purphoros in the MD, but it started to feel like a win-more in the deck, but I am not totally ready to dump the deity yet so it is in the SB. Moving it to the SB allowed me to lower the curve a skosh by adding a couple of Legion's Initiative for repeat offending. If had more Fulminator Mage on MTGO I would probably run 2-3, but it is just too expensive for me to seriously think about it as an option.
Why white? The main reason I wanted white from the start was flicker effects, but I really do not want to splash deep at all outside of red.
Missed it by that much:
I looked at all cards less than 5 cmc that had at least two red mana symbols in the cost, so there were a lot that I looked at and did not like for the deck, but there were a few that I liked but not enough to bump another card.
Burning-Tree Emissary: I thought about it, but the bot I was buying from did not have them and found I liked what I had for my two-drops as is. BTE might be worth trying, but it feels more aggro to me and I think I would rather my creatures to do more than race.
Ashenmoor Gouger: This would likely replace Ram-Gang, but I love the fear that BRG puts in opponents attacking on the ground. Gouger is more resilient for sure, but I think I can win with quantity even if I have losses. My paper deck uses this card, but mostly because I have to pick up some BRG from my FLGS.
Skred:
I love Skred, and in the initial B&T version I was not really comfortable running more than twelve spells that do not contribute to devotion, and Bolt won by way of versatility, while Magma Jet won due to Scry being great with Chandra. After testing I was having trouble with things like big metal wurms, so I made a snow build for the extra punch.So far it is an improvement, I do miss being able to go for the head to bring home a game. The more I test it the more I love it, even without Reckoner.Boros Reckoner: I don't want to buy them on MTGO. I do however own them in paper and have added them to that deck. Testing has been very limited, but it looks strong.
Wild Cantor: Not an imposing card on the battlefield, but it has a R and it can accelerate in a pinch while still being a one-drop. I think I would only add this if I dropped a couple of four drops.
Blood Moon (main deck): This for me is a meta call. A few months back I was testing and tuning a Moon deck, and found that it was not having enough of an impact on my opponent's game far too often. Red is not an uncommon color in the meta, and most decks have some way to work around it. There are a few decks that might really hurt from a Blood Moon, so it is still in the SB, and if the meta changes then I will happily move it.
Update: My current testing is running into a lot of decks that are really hurt by an early Blood Moon, so I added it to the MD of RSD and it has been really devastating. I have yet to loose a game in which I land a turn 3 Blood Moon.
EDIT 11/05/2013: Added Grim Lavamancer and got rid of Seismic Assault.
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Yea. To be honest it is sort of an experiment. If Stonecloaker does not end up earning it's keep then I will likely drop white entirely and run Shattering Spree instead of Disenchant and a couple Ratchet Bomb (or Engineered Explosives if I decide to finally buy them) unless I start really seeing Enchantments I need to deal with efficiently.
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I personally prefer BRG over Ashenmoor Gouger simply because of the haste and since it's such a horrible thing to block. Sure a Goyf can take it down, but not without bringing itself down by about half its potential.
Have you considered Ghostway as a possible "Oops you lose" with Purphoros or Fanatic of Mogis?
I had not thought of it, though I think that Legion's Initiative might be a better bet as it serves three roles (R permanent, pump, flicker). It might be a little on the cute side, but might be worth a couple slots to try, and I am pretty sure I have them.
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4 Path to Exile
4 Boros Charm
2 Legion's Initiative
2 Mask of Memory
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mindsparker
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Blade Splicer
3 Kor Skyfisher
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mountain
4 Rugged Prairie
From my initial testing of Legion's Initiative it seems to really thrive in a deck that's already running a lot of ETB effects so cards like Blade Splicer et al. really work well since it not only protects your deck from sweepers but also allows you to reuse your entire board's ETB triggers. (I got to do some sweet exile tricks by stacking Flicker and Fiend Hunter trigger's after using Legion's Initiative Boros Charm also functions really well as both sweep protection and reach when you need it.
I realize that this isn't really the same deck as the one you've got in your OP but when you mentioned Legion's Initiative I wanted to give it a try. Feel free to critique any of the card choices
Turn 4 burning-Tree Emissary into Fanatic of Mogis is awesome!
Why are you playing Disenchant? It is strictly worse than Wear/Tear and Erase.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Not to mention, I want to see LOTS of R in play, so my little splash of white is purely for utility.
You should bring your build over to the D&T thread, and we can talk more about your deck there.
Glad to see I am not the only one who was inspired by fanatic. Your build is much more aggro than mine, I intentionally left out Goblin Guide for example. I want an alpha Fanatic with as many red permanents still in play as I can get- and in order to do that I need some control. I feel like purely aggro throws too much away to really hit hard with devotion. It is also just not my style.
Well, the SB you see is simply an autopilot SB that I tend to start with when building the deck. I wanted to try Stonecloaker out in a few games so I stuck it in the SB, and since I was using a bit of white I just tossed in Disenchant as utility.
It sounds like there is some interest in the deck, so I think I will beef up the first post with a little more information about what the deck parts do and why. If more interest comes along I can even make it into a primer, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I have to go finish WWZ, but I will do some updating in the next couple of hours with changes to the deck and SB.
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Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
SSG is great, but it plays almost always like an instant so it would have to take the place of one of the instants in order to keep the balance right, and I don't see those as easily dropped. If it took the place of a permanent it would be taking out something that would provide better devotion even if SSG was hard-cast as a creature. I think I would rather run Wild Cantor if I was going for a fast four-drop, but I am not convinced that is a rout I need to take. This deck clogs the board with troublesome creatures pretty quickly as it is.
Not a terrible suggestion at all. Not sure where I would put it, but for now it is high on the "to be tested" list.
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I think Nykthos is worth looking at in general (don't have any yet). Figure with Nykthos could be interesting, but it feels win-more and not worth the dilution of devotion to me.
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Thought about that too, and it is still an interesting idea I might try, though I just want to clarify that I don't necessarily need to sit on 4 lands (three producing red), but I can survive it and still tempo out just fine.
I really think it is. I have ended a LOT of games by dropping 9+ lethal Fanatic that was uncounterable, and even if I don't the game is all but over at that point. In a format with so much removal it is a really solid play.
I assume you read my rational above. As I said it is a meta call, and in your playgroup or meta it may be the right call, but in my experience on MTGO it is not.
It is high on my test list, but there are no three-drops that have been underperforming so far. That said i will probably give it a whirl before too long.
I'm gonna be honest here, I simply hope I can keep up the pressure, or that I have Legion's Initiative in play (of course they are not likely to cast 'clasm if it is). It is a pain in the rear that I am putting off dealing with until later in testing.
As I already stated, I have no interest in buying them online. Besides, adding Skred means I dilute devotion or I take out one of my other instants. While Skred can be a more powerful Bolt it is highly situational to me having Boros Reckoner in play for it to have that versatility.
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See...I listen to people and genuinely test reasonable suggestions, so keep tossing me suggestions.
SB- This is always sort of a mess in all my early decks. The decks I have had most trouble with are Merfolk (that stupid pro red devotion powered token maker is redonkulous), and RG Tron. For Tron I have Pithing Needle, but I needed some artifact destruction too. I am giving the Duergar a shot, though it is slow and does not contribute much to devotion count. but it contributes more than Shattering Spree. For Merfolk I really just have to race them...I am not sure I see many other options.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that all changes are in the first post, and I updated my position on some of the cards too.
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Oh, and this is not work...this is one of the most fun decks I have played in a while. I will have to buy a bunch of cards and proxy a few that are in other decks if I decide to make this in paper, but if I can keep improving it I will gladly do it.
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I'll have to try this.
Hell any excuse to use Blood Knight and Ash Zealot is enough for me! Wouldnt Goblin Guide be an auto include here? What about that Stromkirk Noble?
I'm looking at playing with this, and I have reckoners on MTGO. If cost/budget wasn't a concern, just going for maximum competitiveness, what do you think of the following list:
Non-Permanent Spells 7
4 Skred
3 Magma Jet
Critters 22
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Ashenmoor Gouger
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Legion's Initiative
2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Blood Moon
Land 23
14 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Arid Mesa
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Blood Moon
1 Aether Membrane
3 Stony Silence
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Shattering Spree
Tweaked the manabase to be more snow-heavy (because now we have reckoners+skred), got rid of Blood Knights (were fairly weak in my testing, would you agree?), reckoners and gougers hit hard, Hammer seems really good in this deck both for haste and for continued steam.
The biggest change that I'm not sure about is removing Aether Vial. I removed it for a few reasons.
A) This archtype traditionally doesn't have trouble with control. Our threat density is so high, and Legion's Initiative is so powerful vs sweepers, we don't really need the "uncounterability" part, because that's solving a problem we don't have.
B) The creature count was below what is traditionally considered the 'minimum' for vial. For older formats, the competitive scene has more or less deemed that you need a bare minimum of ~20 critters for vial to be worth it. Obviously this isn't a hard number, but we were playing a little low there. I replaced it with BTE, which is a similarly tempo-oriented dude, plays well with Hammer lategame, and helps with devotion.
What do you think?
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
-2 Magus of the Moon / +2 Blood Moon
-2 Tectonic Edge and -2 Vexing Shusher, +3 basic lands (or +2 and +1 Cavern) and +1 Seal of Fire
That supposed to be a dig? I make original builds all the time and post them here.
This is not an aggro deck, so racing out with card quality at the expense of potentially giving our opponent some CA is not worth the trade-off. What we want is red mana symbol concentration on quality permanents. I have found no red one-drop permanents that I help the win enough to run.
I think you are making the mistake that I keep seeing and thinking of this deck as an aggro deck because of the fact that it is red. We do care about counters for one big reason, Fanatic of Mogis. It is not just another card, it is tremendous value even if you are not casting it for an alpha strike, and if your opponent counters it you have given up a huge tempo gain. I have had several matches where my opponent (playing blue) sits there with the same 3 cards in hand for most of the game, and when I ask them after the match they tell me they were counters.
Even if I am playing the beat-down, which is not quite as easy as the previous build I will admit, I want to drop my hasty beaters and get a swing out of them before they are bolted. Dropping something like Aether Membrane midgame against Delver and making it stick is great, as it stops beats or forces them to 2 to 1 for removal. Playing BTE, for example, is only a good play when you are casting something else as well, and if that is countered you now have just played a vanilla 2/2.
I understand that the creature count is low for many Vial decks, if I had made this build on paper by the numbers I would never have built it this way. Since, however, it is a build that evolved to it's current state I can say that I have had no more issues dropping threats with Vial than I did with the other build. I like Vial here, and any game that I draw it early enough becomes much more in my favor. I think that it might be perfectly viable to run 3x Vial/1SB because we often only really want to see one per game.
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Fanatic is Mogis is not tempo. That is not what tempo is. It's burn on a stick, and yeah its a powerful card. But so is everything else, that's the point. (Save BTE, which IS a tempo card). The deck is powerful against control because your threat density is so high. It doesn't matter to us if the opponent is holding 3 counters at the end of the game, we just need one or two beaters getting through to win, and there isn't a control deck in the format that plays as many counters as we do threats. We will win that battle.
This paragraph is saying two opposite things at once. You're saying you want all your creatures to hit before they die, and then you say you play a wall because it gives you time against delver? Those are opposite deck directions. I like the membrane, but its a control card, and this deck is not control. BTE is an aggro card. If they counter whatever you play with BTE, they were going to counter it if you played it without BTE, except now you have a 2/2 on the field that you wouldn't have otherwise.
I realize your list is around maximizing Fanatic, and making sure he hits and sticks. I just feel like you're worried about the wrong things. You dont NEED vial to get your dudes in play (as I explained above) - you have more threats then they have counters, and if you draw a threat (that gives devotion) instead of vial, it's almost always going to be more valuable in this. And then there's just some janky suboptimal creatures like the Knight and the membrane. I realize they add to the flavor, I'm not saying you should stop playing what you're playing, I'm not sure that every choice I made is the right one. I'm just a little confused about some of your choices and the explanations you're giving, and trying to work them out for the good of the deck.
The paragraph in question is not saying contradictory things, because I am talking about how the deck can play differently depending on the opponent. It can play the beatdown, it can play stall-control, and it uses a combo-like synergy to get the most out of one card. Wanting my haste creatures to get in at least one hit and wanting a defender with reach are not contradictory.
This is just not correct. I play Death and Taxes, which plays Vial not just for instant speed drop but also to get around counter magic, and in that deck we play almost entirely creatures (sans Path and Vial). In that deck I have seen plenty of counters played by my opponent.
I am not playing them for flavor, I am playing them because they have RR in their cost, and they serve a purpose:
Blood Knight: Pro White is pretty great thanks to Path, but I also feel that First Strike is often not given the due it deserves. With FS and a two power there are a lot of creatures in Modern that it can block or be blocked by and still live (destroying the other creature).
Aether Membrane: This is admittedly a probationary creature that I just added late last night, but it has several things going for it:
1) It blocks fliers which nothing else in the deck does.
2) Even big creatures with trample don't want to attack past it due to bounce.
3) It is well out of Bolt range
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I think Nykthos presents such a high ideal for what it could do, that you tend to forget that you could have won with other things before that point. I mean, I suppose I could try Nykthos and maybe one or two Banefire as yet another uncounterable win, but it begins diluting the consistency of other strategies.
Purphoros is not bad, but I still have yet to feel it is totally worthy.
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EDIT: Zo-Zu the Punisher, Goblin Diplomats as 'hate bears'?
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control