Paladin en-Vec is pretty good in the UWR match-up but Fiendslayer Paladin is probably better. If there are red or black creatures about, en-Vec has a better case.
Paladin en-Vec is pretty good in the UWR match-up but Fiendslayer Paladin is probably better. If there are red or black creatures about, en-Vec has a better case.
Yup , agreed both cards are good in the UWR match ups.
At one of the places where I play, I want more removal than just Path to Exile. What do you think about the soon-to-be Standard Devouring Light for the sideboard? It seems as if it's a little better than Celestial Flare - which I have used on occasion - in most circumstances.
The Exile is certainly better against the persist & wither creatures - which I tend to see quite a lot of. Personally, I would play Devouring Light over Celestial Flare if I run additional removal.
Yup, there's Oust too, but Devouring Light at this moment looks like the number 2 white removal spell. Condemn never really worked for me but it's an option too.
I love Condemn in Commander, but the inability to deal with anything but attackers turns me off in Modern. Oust is another one I just can't quite warm-up to.
I love Condemn in Commander, but the inability to deal with anything but attackers turns me off in Modern. Oust is another one I just can't quite warm-up to.
Yup, Celestial Flare is good against Hexproof/color protection creatures so it could be a meta call for this. Condemn and Oust were just too situational when I was using them and seldom serve it's purpose so I'm glad now there is Devouring Light to try out.
Umm, just a small point, but devouring light has been around since ravnica block, in fact. I've had reasonable good results with it, off and on, but it has the attacking/blocking weakness I don't like. I personally think journey to nowhere is probably the second best white removal in modern for the moment or kick it up to three for crib swap or unmake.
Umm, just a small point, but devouring light has been around since ravnica block, in fact. I've had reasonable good results with it, off and on, but it has the attacking/blocking weakness I don't like. I personally think journey to nowhere is probably the second best white removal in modern for the moment or kick it up to three for crib swap or unmake.
It's true Devouring Light was already Modern-legal, but some of us skipped or missed Ravinica; I hadn't seen it before. It seems worth talking about.
Crib Swap is not a bad idea. It would be especially good in some kind of Junk build with Tarmogoyf, or "Tarmo-who" as one of the kids at one of the LGS referred to it.
Unmake is pretty much a consideration only for mono-white - but hey, that's me anyway. It would make a good card for BW-tokens perhaps if there weren't a million lower-cost black removal spells. It does have the advantage of being castable with only white mana.
Ultimately, I think the forthcoming availability and affordability of Devouring Light will put it over the top for me. The convoke will occasionally help it out too.
Unmake would also be a consideration for black/white, and there are some deck lists around that tried it. I get that abrupt decay makes things such as journey less playable. On the other hand, knights seem like they would be more worried about utility creatures and less about attacking and blocking, as all the first strike and eventual indestructibility tend to make it a moot point. That is why I made the suggestions I did.
I tried Unmake before, however it is very difficult to use at 3cc, especially since many of the Knights already occupy the 3cc slot. That said, you are right about the utility creatures posing a large problem, creatures like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze etc are those that requires a Path to Exile and Unmake type removal, which Devouring Light is unable to answer to.
Even then, Devouring Light when used together with PtE could enhance our deck overall creature removal suite. One of the key problems we faced are 4x PtE being insufficient over dealing with many threats such as impossibly huge creatures and utility creatures - at the moment I think using Devouring Light for the huge creatures and trying to optimize PtE for the utility creatures is the best way forward. Eventually we may end up with situations without an optimum play but that is the drawback we have to faced when using conditional removals.
I tried Unmake before, however it is very difficult to use at 3cc, especially since many of the Knights already occupy the 3cc slot. That said, you are right about the utility creatures posing a large problem, creatures like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze etc are those that requires a Path to Exile and Unmake type removal, which Devouring Light is unable to answer to.
Even then, Devouring Light when used together with PtE could enhance our deck overall creature removal suite. One of the key problems we faced are 4x PtE being insufficient over dealing with many threats such as impossibly huge creatures and utility creatures - at the moment I think using Devouring Light for the huge creatures and trying to optimize PtE for the utility creatures is the best way forward. Eventually we may end up with situations without an optimum play but that is the drawback we have to faced when using conditional removals.
Was Selesnya Charm for GW Knights too weak for large creatures? Or there aren't a lot of 5 power creatures in the format?
For me when I tried Selesnya Charm it was a matter of there was never a 5 power creature I could cast it on. For GW builds I would highly recommend giving Beast Within a try as extra removal. The fact that it hits anything is phenomenal, and I'd much rather give my opponent a 3/3 Beast than let them have something like a planeswalker, a full Urza-tron, or any other number of potentially game winning cards that Path to Exile can't deal with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
I tried Unmake before, however it is very difficult to use at 3cc, especially since many of the Knights already occupy the 3cc slot. That said, you are right about the utility creatures posing a large problem, creatures like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze etc are those that requires a Path to Exile and Unmake type removal, which Devouring Light is unable to answer to.
Even then, Devouring Light when used together with PtE could enhance our deck overall creature removal suite. One of the key problems we faced are 4x PtE being insufficient over dealing with many threats such as impossibly huge creatures and utility creatures - at the moment I think using Devouring Light for the huge creatures and trying to optimize PtE for the utility creatures is the best way forward. Eventually we may end up with situations without an optimum play but that is the drawback we have to faced when using conditional removals.
Was Selesnya Charm for GW Knights too weak for large creatures? Or there aren't a lot of 5 power creatures in the format?
I think Selesnya Charm misses out on too many other creatures. The +2/+2, although useful, is probably too underwhelming. I think it has too much utility designed into it thus it's not good enough in either of the abilities it tries to do.
If it was anyone of the follow three instead:
Creatures you control are indestructible/gain protection from the color of your choice (one of these)
Put a 3/3 token into play
Exile a 5- power critter
Then I would consider running it. Unfortunately, it lacks on all fronts. 2/2 without any abilities is worse than any 2/2 we run. 5 power is not typically the issue with modern critters. It's just a bit lackluster ):
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
. . . you are right about the utility creatures posing a large problem, creatures like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze etc are those that requires a Path to Exile and Unmake type removal, which Devouring Light is unable to answer to.
If one were worried about Bob or his ilk, Sunlance would be an option. I'm worried about fatties.
Persist and undying are another set of problems that are better addressed via exile. There's no denying exile is better, but Unmake is a real problem to cast with only fifteen white sources - eleven if there's a Bad Moon about. Crib Swap appeals to me more but Journey to Nowhere might be the best of the lot even with it's vulnerability.
The downside of trying out Journey or Swap for me is just money. When WotC prints them in a core set I'll get right on it.
I like having a few Unmake to go along with Path to Exile but I think its better for B decks that need to Exile tough creatures.
Does Unmake increase the deck curve too much? I had problems casting it when I tried it previously.
I find having 2 Unmake with 4 Path to Exile in a W deck works ok especially with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, I do have a problem sometimes when I when I need it and have Cavern of Souls with 2 Plains out, It would be nice if this was and WW instead of WWW. 3 or 4 is too much especially since many power Knights are 3 drops. Now if your running AEther Vial it would also help much more being able to cast a spell and drop out a Knight. I dont have them so my deck is slower/weaker. I may get a set one of these days.
Running it in B decks (Vamps and Zombies) seems much better as they dont have a Path to Exile and since I run a few Sign in Blood it helps get the extra lands sometimes.
I like having a few Unmake to go along with Path to Exile but I think its better for B decks that need to Exile tough creatures.
Does Unmake increase the deck curve too much? I had problems casting it when I tried it previously.
I find having 2 Unmake with 4 Path to Exile in a W deck works ok especially with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, I do have a problem sometimes when I when I need it and have Cavern of Souls with 2 Plains out, It would be nice if this was and WW instead of WWW. 3 or 4 is too much especially since many power Knights are 3 drops. Now if your running AEther Vial it would also help much more being able to cast a spell and drop out a Knight. I dont have them so my deck is slower/weaker. I may get a set one of these days.
Running it in B decks (Vamps and Zombies) seems much better as they dont have a Path to Exile and since I run a few Sign in Blood it helps get the extra lands sometimes.
I usually have Aether Vial in my list, and yes even with Vial I'm also worried about getting into the scenario you described there. We have to be very careful about the number of non-W mana producing lands we run.
It's not completely crazy you know. Drawing lands may not sound like such a great idea but it's basically the same effect as scrying.
It's also not original; I stole the idea from someone in the Death-and-Taxes thread.
And, lastly, yes, any color could swing it.
I used to play Mighty Quinn in Legacy, and it uses the Snow-covered suite before Death and Taxes were even a deck. I hate using the Scrying Sheets and getting wasted back then. Now in Modern, I'm not sure if I want to forgo the stability of the manabase for it. The problem is colorless mana from the land unfortunately.
Scrying Sheets does look like a fun, casual thing to do though, doesn't it? I don't think it's anything more than that. I do wonder if one couldn't get away with two copies; it certainly doesn't hurt to use Snow-Covered Plains instead of the regular ones. Unless of course, you don't have them and would have buy them.
In order for scrying sheets to be useful, it has to be in a color that can't do it better with something else. In modern, that basically means red and white can get best use out of it, with red having additional effects to take advantage of it. I agree that you likely wouldn't want more than two or maybe three, though.
Nabby: In regards to running unmake and the three WWW it costs you, have you had any success with crib swap in its place or is the token problematic?
For the g/w lists running selesyna charm, has any thought been given to reprisal instead? Or is even having it at 4 power instead of 5 still too difficult?
For the g/w lists running selesyna charm, has any thought been given to reprisal instead? Or is even having it at 4 power instead of 5 still too difficult?
Even the power 4 is still too difficult, I'd rather pay the extra 1 mana for Beast Within since it hits any permanent. The problem with Beast Within is the fact that its a green card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Paladin en-Vec is pretty good in the UWR match-up but Fiendslayer Paladin is probably better. If there are red or black creatures about, en-Vec has a better case.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Yup , agreed both cards are good in the UWR match ups.
Just take note that Fiendslayer Paladin is unable to survive damage type sweeper spells (Pyroclasm anyone?) unlike Paladin en-Vec.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Yup, there's Oust too, but Devouring Light at this moment looks like the number 2 white removal spell. Condemn never really worked for me but it's an option too.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Or that wretched Stormbreath Dragon.
I love Condemn in Commander, but the inability to deal with anything but attackers turns me off in Modern. Oust is another one I just can't quite warm-up to.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Yup, Celestial Flare is good against Hexproof/color protection creatures so it could be a meta call for this. Condemn and Oust were just too situational when I was using them and seldom serve it's purpose so I'm glad now there is Devouring Light to try out.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
It's true Devouring Light was already Modern-legal, but some of us skipped or missed Ravinica; I hadn't seen it before. It seems worth talking about.
Journey to Nowhere has advantages but in a format lousy with Abrupt Decay it has disadvantages as well.
Crib Swap is not a bad idea. It would be especially good in some kind of Junk build with Tarmogoyf, or "Tarmo-who" as one of the kids at one of the LGS referred to it.
Unmake is pretty much a consideration only for mono-white - but hey, that's me anyway. It would make a good card for BW-tokens perhaps if there weren't a million lower-cost black removal spells. It does have the advantage of being castable with only white mana.
Ultimately, I think the forthcoming availability and affordability of Devouring Light will put it over the top for me. The convoke will occasionally help it out too.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Even then, Devouring Light when used together with PtE could enhance our deck overall creature removal suite. One of the key problems we faced are 4x PtE being insufficient over dealing with many threats such as impossibly huge creatures and utility creatures - at the moment I think using Devouring Light for the huge creatures and trying to optimize PtE for the utility creatures is the best way forward. Eventually we may end up with situations without an optimum play but that is the drawback we have to faced when using conditional removals.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Does Unmake increase the deck curve too much? I had problems casting it when I tried it previously.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Was Selesnya Charm for GW Knights too weak for large creatures? Or there aren't a lot of 5 power creatures in the format?
I think Selesnya Charm misses out on too many other creatures. The +2/+2, although useful, is probably too underwhelming. I think it has too much utility designed into it thus it's not good enough in either of the abilities it tries to do.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Creatures you control are indestructible/gain protection from the color of your choice (one of these)
Put a 3/3 token into play
Exile a 5- power critter
Then I would consider running it. Unfortunately, it lacks on all fronts. 2/2 without any abilities is worse than any 2/2 we run. 5 power is not typically the issue with modern critters. It's just a bit lackluster ):
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
If one were worried about Bob or his ilk, Sunlance would be an option. I'm worried about fatties.
Persist and undying are another set of problems that are better addressed via exile. There's no denying exile is better, but Unmake is a real problem to cast with only fifteen white sources - eleven if there's a Bad Moon about. Crib Swap appeals to me more but Journey to Nowhere might be the best of the lot even with it's vulnerability.
The downside of trying out Journey or Swap for me is just money. When WotC prints them in a core set I'll get right on it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I find having 2 Unmake with 4 Path to Exile in a W deck works ok especially with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, I do have a problem sometimes when I when I need it and have Cavern of Souls with 2 Plains out, It would be nice if this was and WW instead of WWW. 3 or 4 is too much especially since many power Knights are 3 drops. Now if your running AEther Vial it would also help much more being able to cast a spell and drop out a Knight. I dont have them so my deck is slower/weaker. I may get a set one of these days.
Running it in B decks (Vamps and Zombies) seems much better as they dont have a Path to Exile and since I run a few Sign in Blood it helps get the extra lands sometimes.
18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
It's not completely crazy you know. Drawing lands may not sound like such a great idea but it's basically the same effect as scrying.
It's also not original; I stole the idea from someone in the Death-and-Taxes thread.
And, lastly, yes, any color could swing it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I usually have Aether Vial in my list, and yes even with Vial I'm also worried about getting into the scenario you described there. We have to be very careful about the number of non-W mana producing lands we run.
I used to play Mighty Quinn in Legacy, and it uses the Snow-covered suite before Death and Taxes were even a deck. I hate using the Scrying Sheets and getting wasted back then. Now in Modern, I'm not sure if I want to forgo the stability of the manabase for it. The problem is colorless mana from the land unfortunately.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Nabby: In regards to running unmake and the three WWW it costs you, have you had any success with crib swap in its place or is the token problematic?
For the g/w lists running selesyna charm, has any thought been given to reprisal instead? Or is even having it at 4 power instead of 5 still too difficult?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!