So Bottled Cloister has been mentioned briefly already. The main draw back I see is that if it gets nuked you lose all the card in your hand, but since you're already trying to have as few cards in your hand as possible, that doesn't change much. So what do people think of it?
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I've been following this thread from the start, i have a few suggestions. Chalice of the void seems like an awesome addition to tezzlock.
I also think you might want to split your wraths in 2 wrath of god and 1 or 2 day of judgement, because of extractions...
Will post my decklist soon, really nice deck idea.
I had the Chalice in the Tezz lock from the start, as a 4 of in the beginning. I started cutting them down until eventually only 1 remained. Then I realized what a pain it was to fetch the chalice with Tez b/c you have to sac it recycle it THEN recast it for it to be useful.
I haven't retired them altogether, but right now Chalice is on the bench. Tezz has a lot of tools to fetch that are answers to the problems that chalice covers in the Ajani lockdown so they arent as needed. At least this is what my initial testing has shown me.
EDIT: About the Wraths, I was actually thinking about trying the new U/W uncounterable wrath.
Alrighty...so I've put together a list. I took a different control spin on the deck...playing it takes me back to the good old days where I wrecked standard with a similar list. I've tested a few matchups and it looks promising.
So, let's talk about this for a second. One major difference is my inclusion of a new wincon: valakut. The deck plays for the long game but later on our top-decks can be weak and the deck is somewhat light on win-cons. Valakut is an answer to both of these problems by actually using the card in a fair way: you turn all your late game mana into a win-con. It adds inevitability to the deck, which was lacking previously. It also adds an uncounterable damage producer against any control deck. The drawback is that you are committed to playing many mountains and this can hinder our mana-base somewhat. Sacred foundry though is house for valakut and provides an out to this problem. Tec edge can no longer be played, but the SB answers any decks where this would be an issue.
Otherwise, the deck plays similarly. You destroy their creatures early, then drop one lock piece...get a bridge online and now you start grinding them. The way that this deck does this is valakut and lands in addition to A Vengeant.
I still feel like the deck needs some sort of card filtering. Faithless looting is good but it gets countered by chalice. One card that caught my eye which I tested with somewhat is dangerous wager. It is instant speed and it combos with bridge.
Otherwise, bottled cloister is the only answer I have currently for card draw. It does work with bridge but limits your options in terms of instant speed answers.
The list isn't quite tuned yet, but it definitely has potential
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I personally don't really think blue is the answer to the deck. It does add card filtering and some card draw, but you now lack removal and most importantly lose Ajani Vengeant. Counters are wrong in a deck like this...you control the board through permanents...which you have to play at sorcery speed. This is anti-synergistic with the need to not tap down to play counters.
So what should Chalice and Nevermore be used for with each tier one deck? I know this was discussed somewhat already, but I'd like to see a complete list of what you should go after in each case.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
So what should Chalice and Nevermore be used for with each tier one deck? I know this was discussed somewhat already, but I'd like to see a complete list of what you should go after in each case.
This is far from comprehensive, but this is what I've ran into so far and feel
Chalice
vs Infect: 1
Shuts off all of their pump spells. which is enough to hugely slow them down.
vs Affinity: 0
If you're on the play, a turn 1 chalice for 0 shuts off Mox Opal and 8 of their creatures (which also slows down springleaf drum).
vs Storm: 2
Shuts off a bunch of their rituals, grapeshot, and very importantly it shuts off Echoing Truth. While not ideal, X=1 is good too because it shuts off their Gitaxian Probes, Serum Visions and Sleight of Hands and slows them down pretty sufficiently.
vs RDW: 1
Prevents most of their aggressive plays.
Nevermore
vs Jund: Maelstrom Pulse
Not a great match to side nevermore into I'd think. Nevertheless, we fear Maelstrom Pulse the most in my experience. Giving them outs to our planeswalkers, leylines, trading posts, bridges and ghostly prisons all in one card is backbreaking and makes redundancy a bad thing. Only if they show Maelstrom Pulse. Abrupt Decay is nowhere near as frightening.
vs Storm: Echoing Truth,
This can also be set to "Past in Flames," "Grapeshot", "Empty the Warrens" (in descending order of usefulness in a vacuum, in my opinion). Set to Echoing Truth if you have both a leyline and bridge down to make it unwinnable for them. This one, I feel, varies the most case-to-case.
I'm only giving the most obvious ones, really. I'm also sure the rest of people will have input on other relevant matchups.
Chalice at 2 needs to be stuck early in order to hit Pyromancer Ascension. If they charge the Ascension up, the Chalice can't stop the copies of spells they get, and they'll Storm off with a Grapeshot with one less Storm than they were expecting (only the original gets countered again).
I'd actually be more likely to stick Chalice at 1 against them to hose most of their cantrips. Unfortunately, they may be digging for 2-cmc bounce with their remaining cantrips.
Chalice at 2 needs to be stuck early in order to hit Pyromancer Ascension. If they charge the Ascension up, the Chalice can't stop the copies of spells they get, and they'll Storm off with a Grapeshot with one less Storm than they were expecting (only the original gets countered again).
I'd actually be more likely to stick Chalice at 1 against them to hose most of their cantrips. Unfortunately, they may be digging for 2-cmc bounce with their remaining cantrips.
Derp. I should know better than that. A chalice at 2 is still a pretty huge boon, but one set to 1 should be prioritized and it helps you get to that point.
For storm, I was actually thinking of including Mindbreaker Trap in my sideboard, though I guess Leyline is probably sufficient. Circle of Fire also looks amusing to deal with Empty of the Warrens
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Headly did a nice job outlining the basics of what to name for Nevermore. I just wanted to add that you always want to name their most likely removal or bounce spell with Nevermore.
Sample list of Nevermore targets:
1. Echoing Truth - Storm
2. Cyclonic Rift (rare) - Storm
3. Maelstrom Pulse - Jund
4. Abrupt Decay - Jund
5. Qasali Pridemage - Hatebears etc.
6. Disenchant - Soul Sisters, generic White
7. Cryptic Command - Delver, Draw-Go decks
8. Oblivion Stone - Tron (Primary target)
9. Karn Liberated - Tron (Secondary Target)
10. Birthing Pod - Pod
A lot of those card are also shut down by Pithing Needle. Using them both adds multiple layers of defense to you deck, and demoralizes your opponents.
Soul Sisters and W/x Tokens are switching to Sundering Growth for their artifact/enchantment hate (W/x Tokens for obvious reasons, Soul Sisters because it plays a nonzero number of Spectral Processions). Might need multiple Nevermores.
I'd actually be prone to naming stuff like Nature's Claim as the primary Nevermore name against RG Artifact Tron, as it's cheaper than Oblivion Stone or Karn. (Unfortunately, my RG Tron sideboard has a Nature's Claim-Seal of Primordium split.)
Soul Sisters and W/x Tokens are switching to Sundering Growth for their artifact/enchantment hate (W/x Tokens for obvious reasons, Soul Sisters because it plays a nonzero number of Spectral Processions). Might need multiple Nevermores.
I'd actually be prone to naming stuff like Nature's Claim as the primary Nevermore name against RG Artifact Tron, as it's cheaper than Oblivion Stone or Karn. (Unfortunately, my RG Tron sideboard has a Nature's Claim-Seal of Primordium split.)
Then the oblivion stone destroys you though. It all depends, you can possibly use pithing needle to block the O-stone then name nature's claim with Nevermore and then both angles are covered.
I played against RWTron last night - and won for the first time (excluded that time the guy screwed up). I found it really helpful to put out a Chalice at 1 - it screws up all those little artifacts that Eggs normally plays, and also Expedition Map and Ancient Stirrings.
I've also been trying different planeswalkers. Ajani is good with direct damage and healing, and Chandra is good because her ultimate does 10 damage to everything and it's within easy reach with her starting loyalty, but she's a bit expensive. But I really like Koth of the Hammer. If you're keeping the board clear of creatures, you can swing for 4 each turn, and if you can get his ultimate you'll be swinging for several points a turn.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I haven't tested koth, although I prefer keeping most of my deck white- i think the lifegain/taxing of white is better than what red can bring to the table. I think chalice is indeed good, but with no ways to tutor and our curve all over the place (except 1) running multiples can be annoying and running one or two is untiable. Im testing Trinisphere in the sideboard, and so far it's awesome- almost completely shuts down storm as backup for leyline, and delver iterations are now stuck with a hand full of 3-mana simple cantrips.
Lightning helix loses power though...
Oh you just gave me a good idea for Tezzeret > Tutor Trinisphere to back up the others shields in place. I was considering adding one witchbane orb for this, but trinisphere is much better and only costs 3.
So far i am doing amazing with my current deck list, couple of cheaters/rage quitters, other than that good times. Just thought i'd mention i was playing against soul sisters, i ***'d than chalice for 1, they were very upset.
Anyway i'm having great success so far with flagstones/boom//bust. I tried a couple of games without it didn't do so well. Once i put them both back in, my opponents were having bad times.
Anyway just thought i'd talk to you guys about sideboard cards. Nevermoore sounds ridiculus as well certain other cards. But just curious as to what everyone else is currenty running.
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Modern: B 8Rack RX Goblins BG Elves (Attempting) UBW Mill G Stompy UB Tezzerator
Legacy: W Stax
So what decks are bad match-ups for R/W Lockdown (regular, not Tezzlock). I know Tron is pretty bad, are there any other tier 1 decks I should worry about?
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I wanted to share my current TezzLock decklist with you guys. This list will give you some extra power vs Jund and Tron, but it introduces a few new weaknesses as a trade-off.
A couple notable changes - I have replace 3x Lightning Helix with 3x Pyroclasm. The Pyroclasm functions as a mini wrath for 2 mana. It usually clears the board when cast. Trading Post has been given the spotlight as an all purpose toolbox that can chump block, recycle your Bridges, gain you life or empty your hand. I updated the Primer post to reflect some of these changes.
So what decks are bad match-ups for R/W Lockdown (regular, not Tezzlock). I know Tron is pretty bad, are there any other tier 1 decks I should worry about?
Honestly RW is only weak to Tron. There is a theoretical weakness to mass blue counterspells, but those types of decks do not currently populate Modern Tier 1 meta.
Memory Lapse told me to post my deck in here, since he figured it might cause some discussion. Similar to what is being attempted to here. I really want to make room for the leyline of sanctity in the main. I never thought of doing a non-tutorboard with tezzeret. Something I'm definitely going to consider. Also, you guys shoud run green because beast within is essentially a vindicate in your deck, allowing you to kill a Karn or anything else really.
memory lapse, might I suggest adding a few more trading post targets to your deck? Solemn or wurmcoil or ichor wellspring? It's card advantage. Perhaps a blue splash for mindslaver could fix the tron matchup instead of a green splash. Though, I think either would get the job done. Also, I see you took the idea of trading post from me !!!! I love you, trading post is my favorite card.
Modern: Modern is Bad
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Honestly RW is only weak to Tron. There is a theoretical weakness to mass blue counterspells, but those types of decks do not currently populate Modern Tier 1 meta.
I severely doubt that the only weakness this deck has is Tron. Judging by the lists in the OP, here is what I would judge based simply off odds and theorycraft. For whatever it's worth, I'm not trying to discredit this deck at all, but I think saying "it's only weakness is tron" is a bit innacurate, and I've played against quite a few similar decks, and I've found most players underestimate the ability of their opponents to deal with artifacts and enchantments maindeck (most decks play lots of maindeck removal or bounce for cards of this nature, and almost all decks in the format have a voluminous amount of sb hate due to affinity's presence).
1. Scapeshift would be problematic against a Good shift player: They can simply wait all day until they can find a cryptic command to bounce Leyline, then shift for the win. After Sideboard, they're boarding in Echoing Truths in addition to their Cryptic Commands. Scapeshift also can easily counter cards like Sowing Salt that would potentially cause them problems.
2. Jund would most likely be a difficult matchup since they can remove any of the supposed "lock" pieces with decay and pulse (as well as other cards coming in from the sideboard such as Ancient Grudge).
3. Splinter Twin combo would be difficult unless you can draw & resolve a Ghostly prison prior to them comboing. With only 3 prisons maindeck, the odds aren't in your favor. Similar to other combo decks, they sideboard into Echoing Truth to deal with problematic cards.
4. Nayapod would likely be very difficult since a resolved Birthing pod would take over the game, and even without pod, they still run a large toolbox that can easily find answers to artifacts and enchantments.
5. UW restoration Control would be very difficult to play against since they can easily counter most of the supposed lock pieces that matter, and they play the stack way better, which almost always gives them the advantage in any control-oriented mirror.
I would love to be proven wrong about these, and I don't personally play this deck, but form the outside looking in, I wouldn't feel super confident playing these matchups if I were to play this deck.
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I severely doubt that the only weakness this deck has is Tron. Judging by the lists in the OP, here is what I would judge based simply off odds and theorycraft. For whatever it's worth, I'm not trying to discredit this deck at all, but I think saying "it's only weakness is tron" is a bit innacurate, and I've played against quite a few similar decks, and I've found most players underestimate the ability of their opponents to deal with artifacts and enchantments maindeck (most decks play lots of maindeck removal or bounce for cards of this nature, and almost all decks in the format have a voluminous amount of sb hate due to affinity's presence).
1. Scapeshift would be problematic against a Good shift player: They can simply wait all day until they can find a cryptic command to bounce Leyline, then shift for the win. After Sideboard, they're boarding in Echoing Truths in addition to their Cryptic Commands. Scapeshift also can easily counter cards like Sowing Salt that would potentially cause them problems.
Deck is almost non existent in MTGO; folds easily to the lock
2. Jund would most likely be a difficult matchup since they can remove any of the supposed "lock" pieces with decay and pulse (as well as other cards coming in from the sideboard such as Ancient Grudge). Fun games, but Abrupt Decay is now mainstream over Maesltrom which was a huge buff to my deck. Pyro > Prison > Wrath > Bridge > Walker > Trading Post is usually how the games play out. Jund does not like prison decks.
3. Splinter Twin combo would be difficult unless you can draw & resolve a Ghostly prison prior to them comboing. With only 3 prisons maindeck, the odds aren't in your favor. Similar to other combo decks, they sideboard into Echoing Truth to deal with problematic cards. I am seeing this deck less and less compared to storm, thats why I snubbed the lightning helix for pyroclasm. Prison, Pithing Needle, Torpor Orb and Nevermore say hi
4. Nayapod would likely be very difficult since a resolved Birthing pod would take over the game, and even without pod, they still run a large toolbox that can easily find answers to artifacts and enchantments. Agreed its a tough match, Pithing Needle names pod helps. Pyroclasm helps too.
5. UW restoration Control would be very difficult to play against since they can easily counter most of the supposed lock pieces that matter, and they play the stack way better, which almost always gives them the advantage in any control-oriented mirror. COutnerspells are a weakness, but I have much better inevitability, recurring bridges lock them out in the end game. Not many of these decks run a heavy counterspell suite. Sweepers annoy them.
I would love to be proven wrong about these, and I don't personally play this deck, but form the outside looking in, I wouldn't feel super confident playing these matchups if I were to play this deck. If you play on MTGO I'd be glad to show you how the deck works, its not exactly easy to see what it does by looking at the list you have to see it in action. Having a control deck that thrives in a top deck scenario is techy for this meta.
Blue is mine.
What this deck really shines at is being a storm killer that also destroys aggro. My particular meta has a metric ton of Storm, and what isnt storm is mostly aggro. Even tron lists are becoming more scarce these days. I dont want to give the impression that I think this style of deck beats everythign else, no deck does. Its simply a tool you can use to combat a storm / aggro heavy meta.
1. Scapeshift would be problematic against a Good shift player: They can simply wait all day until they can find a cryptic command to bounce Leyline, then shift for the win. After Sideboard, they're boarding in Echoing Truths in addition to their Cryptic Commands. Scapeshift also can easily counter cards like Sowing Salt that would potentially cause them problems.
2. Jund would most likely be a difficult matchup since they can remove any of the supposed "lock" pieces with decay and pulse (as well as other cards coming in from the sideboard such as Ancient Grudge).
3. Splinter Twin combo would be difficult unless you can draw & resolve a Ghostly prison prior to them comboing. With only 3 prisons maindeck, the odds aren't in your favor. Similar to other combo decks, they sideboard into Echoing Truth to deal with problematic cards.
4. Nayapod would likely be very difficult since a resolved Birthing pod would take over the game, and even without pod, they still run a large toolbox that can easily find answers to artifacts and enchantments.
5. UW restoration Control would be very difficult to play against since they can easily counter most of the supposed lock pieces that matter, and they play the stack way better, which almost always gives them the advantage in any control-oriented mirror.
I've been playing a bit, but I haven't encountered too many of these, so these are also only my thoughts:
-Scapeshift can win, but I often find that players will need to hate on multiple artifacts and enchantments to get through
-the trick with Jund is to delay them with Leyline from gaining card advantage, then DoJ/*** the field and Helix Liliana, stop them from gaining momentum in the first place
-SplinterTwin is tough, I recently played a game where I drew 4 nevermores and still lost because he counter-spelled absolutely everything, any one who says draw-go is dead has no played against splinter twin
-I don't know about NayaPod
-UW Resto control kicks our ass. It kicks everyone's ass, except those who are running a creature deck with 4 Caverns of Souls, and even then, it's hard; if I hear one person says that counterspelling decks are weak in Modern, I'll eat them
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I've been playing a bit, but I haven't encountered too many of these, so these are also only my thoughts:
-Scapeshift can win, but I often find that players will need to hate on multiple artifacts and enchantments to get through
-the trick with Jund is to delay them with Leyline from gaining card advantage, then DoJ/*** the field and Helix Liliana, stop them from gaining momentum in the first place
-SplinterTwin is tough, I recently played a game where I drew 4 nevermores and still lost because he counter-spelled absolutely everything, any one who says draw-go is dead has no played against splinter twin
-I don't know about NayaPod
-UW Resto control kicks our ass. It kicks everyone's ass, except those who are running a creature deck with 4 Caverns of Souls, and even then, it's hard; if I hear one person says that counterspelling decks are weak in Modern, I'll eat them
Leyline won't keep jund from gaining card advantage, it will simply stop you from getting hit with thoughteize, or ultimated with Liliana. Leyline helps against a few jund cards, but it's a fallacy in thinking it stops jund from doing what they do best. Also, helix does not kill Liliana. She's going to resolve and +1 just about every game against a deck like this, meaning your helix will simply put her to 1 loyalty.
As for shift, you probably bring up a good point that post board, they have more stuff to fight thru.
As for MemoryLapse's comments earlier, I actually agree, and in an aggro / storm meta, this would be a great deck to play.
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I call my version "I hate you, die."
I'm in a very bad mood so there's no theme except hate cards. If there's something that this can't deal with just let me know so that I can add more hate.
Now that I'm in a better mood I feel that this is a delightful way to make people angry. Nevermore is a bit swingy but if you name it against Jund for example then you can easily supplement the other cards in your hand. If you've got Ensnaring Bridge in your hand then you name Abrupt Decay. If you name Tarmagoyf or Bloodbraid Elf that's usually a safe call too. Leyline might be a dead card against certain matchups but the hate is so complete here that I don't think it really hurts. The Jund player put Liliana down and made us both sac our entire hand until he realized that the ultimate couldn't target me. Oops. I was like 'yeah - Liliana - that's cute.'
I don't think that the other planeswalkers are necessary. Ajani helps execute the lock until he can ultimate. Gisela will eventually come into play and a built-up Ajani will start smashing for 6 damage every turn.
I love this deck, or well I love the idea behind this deck, a complete lock down sounds like a lot of fun to play, if not to play against.
However, it seems rather fragile and absurdly slow. I mean as best I can tell you main, and best win condition is to slowly ping with 1/1 token and the occasional Lighting Helix/Ajani Helix. Am i wrong for thinking this?
I love this deck, or well I love the idea behind this deck, a complete lock down sounds like a lot of fun to play, if not to play against.
However, it seems rather fragile and absurdly slow. I mean as best I can tell you main, and best win condition is to slowly ping with 1/1 token and the occasional Lighting Helix/Ajani Helix. Am i wrong for thinking this?
To be perfectly honest, this deck reminds of stax in legacy at most, in the sense of locking the opponent down as quickly as possible, than playing your win condition (Stax has Ancient tomb and City of Traitors though :() I was actually thinking to me myself the other day about maybe using tron lands for this deck and playing bigger lock down spells? There is a brown stax in legacy that does something similar but than again this in itself is fragile enough as it is.
I love this deck, there is a variety of ways to go with it, half the time the purpose of this deck is to make the opponent rage quit once you have the lock and drop an ajani, gideon, or elsepth. The other half is to beat them with tokens, your point is to lack kill condition for unconditional lockdown.
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So Bottled Cloister has been mentioned briefly already. The main draw back I see is that if it gets nuked you lose all the card in your hand, but since you're already trying to have as few cards in your hand as possible, that doesn't change much. So what do people think of it?
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I had the Chalice in the Tezz lock from the start, as a 4 of in the beginning. I started cutting them down until eventually only 1 remained. Then I realized what a pain it was to fetch the chalice with Tez b/c you have to sac it recycle it THEN recast it for it to be useful.
I haven't retired them altogether, but right now Chalice is on the bench. Tezz has a lot of tools to fetch that are answers to the problems that chalice covers in the Ajani lockdown so they arent as needed. At least this is what my initial testing has shown me.
EDIT: About the Wraths, I was actually thinking about trying the new U/W uncounterable wrath.
Here is my list:
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Arid Mesa
4x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3x Rugged prairie
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Ajani Vengeant
2x Chalice of the Void
3x Wrath of God
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Chandra Nalaar
2x Goblin Assault
1x Martial Coup
1x Comet Storm/devil's play
1x Banefire
1x Trading Post
4x Sowing Salt
3x Rule of Law
3x Pyroclasm
3x Pithing Needle
1x Banefire
1x Goblin Assault
1x Leyline of Sanctity
So, let's talk about this for a second. One major difference is my inclusion of a new wincon: valakut. The deck plays for the long game but later on our top-decks can be weak and the deck is somewhat light on win-cons. Valakut is an answer to both of these problems by actually using the card in a fair way: you turn all your late game mana into a win-con. It adds inevitability to the deck, which was lacking previously. It also adds an uncounterable damage producer against any control deck. The drawback is that you are committed to playing many mountains and this can hinder our mana-base somewhat. Sacred foundry though is house for valakut and provides an out to this problem. Tec edge can no longer be played, but the SB answers any decks where this would be an issue.
Otherwise, the deck plays similarly. You destroy their creatures early, then drop one lock piece...get a bridge online and now you start grinding them. The way that this deck does this is valakut and lands in addition to A Vengeant.
I still feel like the deck needs some sort of card filtering. Faithless looting is good but it gets countered by chalice. One card that caught my eye which I tested with somewhat is dangerous wager. It is instant speed and it combos with bridge.
Otherwise, bottled cloister is the only answer I have currently for card draw. It does work with bridge but limits your options in terms of instant speed answers.
The list isn't quite tuned yet, but it definitely has potential
--
I personally don't really think blue is the answer to the deck. It does add card filtering and some card draw, but you now lack removal and most importantly lose Ajani Vengeant. Counters are wrong in a deck like this...you control the board through permanents...which you have to play at sorcery speed. This is anti-synergistic with the need to not tap down to play counters.
Standard
Blows
Modern
BWUTeachingsBWU
GUGU TempoGU
WLifeW
RWValakut ControlRW
UBModern MillUB
Legacy
UMUCU
BPoxB
BWRTokensBWR
Pauper
UBGRW Domain UBGRW
Vintage
RVise-Burn!R
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight was ever made" - Immanuel Kant
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
This is far from comprehensive, but this is what I've ran into so far and feel
Chalice
vs Infect: 1
Shuts off all of their pump spells. which is enough to hugely slow them down.
vs Affinity: 0
If you're on the play, a turn 1 chalice for 0 shuts off Mox Opal and 8 of their creatures (which also slows down springleaf drum).
vs Storm: 2
Shuts off a bunch of their rituals, grapeshot, and very importantly it shuts off Echoing Truth. While not ideal, X=1 is good too because it shuts off their Gitaxian Probes, Serum Visions and Sleight of Hands and slows them down pretty sufficiently.
vs RDW: 1
Prevents most of their aggressive plays.
Nevermore
vs Jund: Maelstrom Pulse
Not a great match to side nevermore into I'd think. Nevertheless, we fear Maelstrom Pulse the most in my experience. Giving them outs to our planeswalkers, leylines, trading posts, bridges and ghostly prisons all in one card is backbreaking and makes redundancy a bad thing. Only if they show Maelstrom Pulse. Abrupt Decay is nowhere near as frightening.
vs Storm: Echoing Truth,
This can also be set to "Past in Flames," "Grapeshot", "Empty the Warrens" (in descending order of usefulness in a vacuum, in my opinion). Set to Echoing Truth if you have both a leyline and bridge down to make it unwinnable for them. This one, I feel, varies the most case-to-case.
I'm only giving the most obvious ones, really. I'm also sure the rest of people will have input on other relevant matchups.
I'd actually be more likely to stick Chalice at 1 against them to hose most of their cantrips. Unfortunately, they may be digging for 2-cmc bounce with their remaining cantrips.
Derp. I should know better than that. A chalice at 2 is still a pretty huge boon, but one set to 1 should be prioritized and it helps you get to that point.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Sample list of Nevermore targets:
1. Echoing Truth - Storm
2. Cyclonic Rift (rare) - Storm
3. Maelstrom Pulse - Jund
4. Abrupt Decay - Jund
5. Qasali Pridemage - Hatebears etc.
6. Disenchant - Soul Sisters, generic White
7. Cryptic Command - Delver, Draw-Go decks
8. Oblivion Stone - Tron (Primary target)
9. Karn Liberated - Tron (Secondary Target)
10. Birthing Pod - Pod
A lot of those card are also shut down by Pithing Needle. Using them both adds multiple layers of defense to you deck, and demoralizes your opponents.
I'd actually be prone to naming stuff like Nature's Claim as the primary Nevermore name against RG Artifact Tron, as it's cheaper than Oblivion Stone or Karn. (Unfortunately, my RG Tron sideboard has a Nature's Claim-Seal of Primordium split.)
Then the oblivion stone destroys you though. It all depends, you can possibly use pithing needle to block the O-stone then name nature's claim with Nevermore and then both angles are covered.
I've also been trying different planeswalkers. Ajani is good with direct damage and healing, and Chandra is good because her ultimate does 10 damage to everything and it's within easy reach with her starting loyalty, but she's a bit expensive. But I really like Koth of the Hammer. If you're keeping the board clear of creatures, you can swing for 4 each turn, and if you can get his ultimate you'll be swinging for several points a turn.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Oh you just gave me a good idea for Tezzeret > Tutor Trinisphere to back up the others shields in place. I was considering adding one witchbane orb for this, but trinisphere is much better and only costs 3.
Anyway i'm having great success so far with flagstones/boom//bust. I tried a couple of games without it didn't do so well. Once i put them both back in, my opponents were having bad times.
Anyway just thought i'd talk to you guys about sideboard cards. Nevermoore sounds ridiculus as well certain other cards. But just curious as to what everyone else is currenty running.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Plains
3 Mystic Gate
1 Island
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Adarkar Wastes
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
Accelerate
1 Mox Opal
3 Talisman of Progress
3 Azorius Signet
Sweepers / Stall
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Day of Judgment
3 Wrath of God
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Trinisphere
1 Trading Post
1 Torpor Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
Walkers
4 Tezzeret the Seeker
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
4 Rule of Law
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Nevermore
3 Quiet Purity
And here is the most current version or RW Lockdown:
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Tectonic Edge
3 Rugged Prairie
3 Battlefield Forge
8 Plains
Stall / Wipe
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Wrath of God
4 Mind Stone
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Pyroclasm
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Lightning Helix
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Trading Post
4 Rule of Law
4 Sowing Salt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Nevermore
A couple notable changes - I have replace 3x Lightning Helix with 3x Pyroclasm. The Pyroclasm functions as a mini wrath for 2 mana. It usually clears the board when cast. Trading Post has been given the spotlight as an all purpose toolbox that can chump block, recycle your Bridges, gain you life or empty your hand. I updated the Primer post to reflect some of these changes.
Honestly RW is only weak to Tron. There is a theoretical weakness to mass blue counterspells, but those types of decks do not currently populate Modern Tier 1 meta.
3 Trading Post
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Ichor Wellspring
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Talisman of Progress
1 Pithing Needle
2 Azorius Signet
Planeswalkers
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
Creatures
1 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Noble Hierarch
Instants/Sorceries
4 Path to Exile
2 Fabricate
2 Beast Within
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Temple Garden
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 Academy Ruins
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Torpor Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mindslaver
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Disenchant
1 Naturalize
memory lapse, might I suggest adding a few more trading post targets to your deck? Solemn or wurmcoil or ichor wellspring? It's card advantage. Perhaps a blue splash for mindslaver could fix the tron matchup instead of a green splash. Though, I think either would get the job done. Also, I see you took the idea of trading post from me !!!! I love you, trading post is my favorite card.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
I severely doubt that the only weakness this deck has is Tron. Judging by the lists in the OP, here is what I would judge based simply off odds and theorycraft. For whatever it's worth, I'm not trying to discredit this deck at all, but I think saying "it's only weakness is tron" is a bit innacurate, and I've played against quite a few similar decks, and I've found most players underestimate the ability of their opponents to deal with artifacts and enchantments maindeck (most decks play lots of maindeck removal or bounce for cards of this nature, and almost all decks in the format have a voluminous amount of sb hate due to affinity's presence).
1. Scapeshift would be problematic against a Good shift player: They can simply wait all day until they can find a cryptic command to bounce Leyline, then shift for the win. After Sideboard, they're boarding in Echoing Truths in addition to their Cryptic Commands. Scapeshift also can easily counter cards like Sowing Salt that would potentially cause them problems.
2. Jund would most likely be a difficult matchup since they can remove any of the supposed "lock" pieces with decay and pulse (as well as other cards coming in from the sideboard such as Ancient Grudge).
3. Splinter Twin combo would be difficult unless you can draw & resolve a Ghostly prison prior to them comboing. With only 3 prisons maindeck, the odds aren't in your favor. Similar to other combo decks, they sideboard into Echoing Truth to deal with problematic cards.
4. Nayapod would likely be very difficult since a resolved Birthing pod would take over the game, and even without pod, they still run a large toolbox that can easily find answers to artifacts and enchantments.
5. UW restoration Control would be very difficult to play against since they can easily counter most of the supposed lock pieces that matter, and they play the stack way better, which almost always gives them the advantage in any control-oriented mirror.
I would love to be proven wrong about these, and I don't personally play this deck, but form the outside looking in, I wouldn't feel super confident playing these matchups if I were to play this deck.
Blue is mine.
What this deck really shines at is being a storm killer that also destroys aggro. My particular meta has a metric ton of Storm, and what isnt storm is mostly aggro. Even tron lists are becoming more scarce these days. I dont want to give the impression that I think this style of deck beats everythign else, no deck does. Its simply a tool you can use to combat a storm / aggro heavy meta.
I've been playing a bit, but I haven't encountered too many of these, so these are also only my thoughts:
-Scapeshift can win, but I often find that players will need to hate on multiple artifacts and enchantments to get through
-the trick with Jund is to delay them with Leyline from gaining card advantage, then DoJ/*** the field and Helix Liliana, stop them from gaining momentum in the first place
-SplinterTwin is tough, I recently played a game where I drew 4 nevermores and still lost because he counter-spelled absolutely everything, any one who says draw-go is dead has no played against splinter twin
-I don't know about NayaPod
-UW Resto control kicks our ass. It kicks everyone's ass, except those who are running a creature deck with 4 Caverns of Souls, and even then, it's hard; if I hear one person says that counterspelling decks are weak in Modern, I'll eat them
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Leyline won't keep jund from gaining card advantage, it will simply stop you from getting hit with thoughteize, or ultimated with Liliana. Leyline helps against a few jund cards, but it's a fallacy in thinking it stops jund from doing what they do best. Also, helix does not kill Liliana. She's going to resolve and +1 just about every game against a deck like this, meaning your helix will simply put her to 1 loyalty.
As for shift, you probably bring up a good point that post board, they have more stuff to fight thru.
As for MemoryLapse's comments earlier, I actually agree, and in an aggro / storm meta, this would be a great deck to play.
I'm in a very bad mood so there's no theme except hate cards. If there's something that this can't deal with just let me know so that I can add more hate.
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Creature
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Enchantment
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Nevermore
Instant
4 Lightning Helix
Planeswalker
2 Ajani Vengeant
4 Earthquake
4 Pyroclasm
4 Wrath of God
Land
4 Arid Mesa
4 Ghitu Encampment
4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Rest In Peace
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tectonic Edge
3 Oblivion Ring
Now that I'm in a better mood I feel that this is a delightful way to make people angry. Nevermore is a bit swingy but if you name it against Jund for example then you can easily supplement the other cards in your hand. If you've got Ensnaring Bridge in your hand then you name Abrupt Decay. If you name Tarmagoyf or Bloodbraid Elf that's usually a safe call too. Leyline might be a dead card against certain matchups but the hate is so complete here that I don't think it really hurts. The Jund player put Liliana down and made us both sac our entire hand until he realized that the ultimate couldn't target me. Oops. I was like 'yeah - Liliana - that's cute.'
I don't think that the other planeswalkers are necessary. Ajani helps execute the lock until he can ultimate. Gisela will eventually come into play and a built-up Ajani will start smashing for 6 damage every turn.
However, it seems rather fragile and absurdly slow. I mean as best I can tell you main, and best win condition is to slowly ping with 1/1 token and the occasional Lighting Helix/Ajani Helix. Am i wrong for thinking this?
To be perfectly honest, this deck reminds of stax in legacy at most, in the sense of locking the opponent down as quickly as possible, than playing your win condition (Stax has Ancient tomb and City of Traitors though :() I was actually thinking to me myself the other day about maybe using tron lands for this deck and playing bigger lock down spells? There is a brown stax in legacy that does something similar but than again this in itself is fragile enough as it is.
I love this deck, there is a variety of ways to go with it, half the time the purpose of this deck is to make the opponent rage quit once you have the lock and drop an ajani, gideon, or elsepth. The other half is to beat them with tokens, your point is to lack kill condition for unconditional lockdown.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax