No need to apologize, I agree that the Volcanic Fallout has great upside. The fact that it is uncounterable is pretty great. My point with my UR Delver match-up is that he had the perfect number of answers to an impossible number of sweepers from my side. I do not expect them to have that level of protection consistently. It is also important acknowledge that I did not have any counterspell back-up.
Considering most delver is only running maybe 6 counters that was lucky for your opp. I also didn't think that the 2 damage you take from fallout might be a deal breaker in that situation too. Something cheap that I've tested in other decks and works well against delver is circle of flame. It doesn't kill swiftspear or flipped delver but it neuters YP.
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It gives me a heavy heart, but my PPTQ performance was mediocre at best. I finished 11th place of 20 contestants with a record of 2-2-1.
Round 1 Abzan Birthing Pod (2-0)
Let's say that this was a great place to start the tournament.
- Game 1 He drew land heavy in and I was able to answer all of his relevant threats. He resolved a late game Shriekmaw and was able to attack in for 3. I played a Batterskull on the following turn with Cryptic Command back-up. Realizing that my BBD Germ token was black, he did not attack into me. I untapped, activated my Creeping Tar Pit, attached Batterskull and attacked. This took him from 14 to 7.
- Game 2 he fetched and shocked into a Noble Hierarch. I fetched into an Island and Dismembered his Noble. I spent the following turns keeping him off of lands. I won with creeping tar pit.
Round 2 Abzan Thune Pod (Draw)
I played my Pod opponent from yesterday's tournament.
- Game 1 went as predicted and I won with little effort.
- Game 2 he took my advise from our playtesting and brought in Choke from his SB. This card is nasty against my mana base. He locked me out of the game and beat-down with Siege Rhino.
- Game 3 went the same way as Game 2, he cast a choke in the late game but there was not enough pressure to finish the game before time was called.
Round 3 Affinity (0-2)
- Game 1 my opponent is on the play. Turn 1 Ornithopter, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, Darksteel Citadel, and Ensoul Artifact on his Ornithopter (yep, i was going to have a hard time winning that one).
- Game 2 I mulligan to a hand of Bolt, Spell Snare, Island, Shatterstorm. Before I can find and play a second land, he plays Choke. I didn't know that this was something that Affinity does.
I could still make it into the TOP 8 with 2 more wins.
Round 4 UR Delver (2-0)
I was able to counter his Treasure Cruise. I killed his Monastery Swiftspears after combat and he did not get an early delver. He could have mulligan more aggressively and not played into my counter spells.
- Game 1 was won with casting Keranos, God of Storms into an empty board and a tapped out opponent. I hit running lands with Keranos but was able to attack with Tar Pit and keep the board devoid of threats.
- Game 2 I answered 2 Young Pyromancers that he tapped out for on turn 2 and 3. He never really stabilized after that. I resolved a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir with perfect information from an earlier Vendilion Clique. He didn't concede but I could tell that he had given up.
Round 5 Abzan Pod (2-0)
I wish that I remembered my opening hand.
- Game 1 I was able to answer a couple of his early spells. He was able to maintain momentum, but i quickly ran out of answers. I believe that the issue was Gavony Township + Kitchen Finks I was never in a position where I could clear the board.
- Game 2 My pacing is starts at the same rate and maybe even a little better than Game 1. On turn 4 he Thoughtseizes me. I have Batterskull, Snapcaster, Cryptic, and Counterflux in hand with only the 3 mana for Counterflux available. I decide that this is a hand that is worth keeping and decide to Counterflux the Thoughtsieze. Then, with his remaining 3 mana he casts the only Choke in his 75. I fell for the bait but would not have had any answer to the Choke had he taken the Counterflux.
I did not make it to the TOP 8.
The lessons that I learned today are that choke is a nightmare and is my least favorite Magic card to see when playing Cruel Control.
Does anyone else have experience with Choke?
How do you deal with it if it resolves?
Is this something that we name with Slaughter Games if we think that they might bring it in?
Choke isn't that bad on my mana base if I know that they have it. If it is a game 2 surprise I 2 Ratchet Bombs in the sideboard that are great for that sort of thing.
question, manabase wise, i dont have one handy but could a normal cruel mana base be able to fit Academy ruins main? (ergo facto playing Engineered Explosives main aswell)
A typical esper mana base looks something like: 4-5 manlands, 6-8 fetches, 4-6 shocklands, 4-7 basics, 4-7 utility lands. Your utility lands are going to include tectonic edge, filter lands, ghost quarters, academy ruins, etc. Reflecting pool I would generally count in the manland category as it's a colored source that is dependent on other lands for value. In general, 20-21 blue sources, 12-13 red sources and 14-15 black sources should meet your mana requirements, so if you can do that in 25 lands, you can run a 26th as academy ruins. probably doing so would require a bit more pain, with the full 8 fetches and 5-6 shocklands, but it should also help fuel dig to find your engineered explosives to make use of the ruins.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I agree choke is pretty brutal, i've found that having things like sulfur falls and sunken ruins have helped out with fighting vs choke, I've found room to run 3 sulfur falls and 1 sunken ruins and they seem to do well vs choke although they can ofc be a touch awkward in other areas overall i think its worth it to help combat choke a little.
I am currently running 7 blue sources that are not islands. If I were to change my Drowned Catacombs and Sulfur Falls into Sunken Ruins and Cascade Bluffs this would change my total amount of accessible (non-island) blue mana to 9.
This seems very promising in itself. I know that Joe Lossett was using this technology to combat Choke in Legacy Miracles.
The filter lands do provide new options for accessing Teferi and Cryptic mana. But they also introduce 3 variations of a 2 land opening hand that does not allow for access to blue mana on turn 2 (assuming that you do not draw a third land until turn 3). This may not be important for 7 land hands (it would be an easy mulligan decision). However I think that this might be relevant for 5-6 card hands.
Unless someone else is eager to do it, I'll work on the math later today.
I'd have some conflict changing mana to address choke. I run vedalken shackles and would rather not remove islands. The tact I've used before is EOT bounce choke (after saving up for it) and trying to counter it on the way back. It doesn't hurt so bad in that I also run crucible of worlds and can essentially fetch a new island every turn.
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Technically i am not removing any 'Islands' from the list. I am theoretically changing my buddy lands for untapped lands that enable my Mountain, Swamp, Urborg, and Blood Crypt to also tap for blue.
I think that version 2 may be a little aggressive of a change. This will affect my percentages slightly (reduces my access to early red, reduces my chance of an early Dig Through Time). However, I think that what it adds (considering the potential for a choke) far outweighs the negative impact. I think that it is easier to make this maindeck change to my manabase than to use a SB slot (unless i can find something like Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb will add a significant edge in other difficult match-ups). SB hand disruption would also be a great idea to protect against the choke.
My Scalding Tarns and Polluted Deltas each have 9 targets. I don't remember what the 'right' balance of fetches to targets are for a control deck (I have read at least one article/comment proposing a number). When a Choke is in play, you have to consider each fetch to also be an island.
Those filter lands are a great idea. River of Tears...not a fan. I'd rather just run a Darkslick shores. Either way I think 4 tar pit is one too many. 3 seems to always get you one by the time you can actually use it for something other than mana.
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Those filter lands are a great idea. River of Tears...not a fan. I'd rather just run a Darkslick shores. Either way I think 4 tar pit is one too many. 3 seems to always get you one by the time you can actually use it for something other than mana.
Manlands are generally how you're going to be killing people in this deck. They provide inevitability. I wouldn't run less than 4x. I run 5x by slotting in a Lavaclaw Reaches. They can't be countered and get the job done. 4 CIPT lands aren't going to hurt you that often.
Cruel Ultimatum is great but it's rarely for lethal unless you're flashing it back.
Once you run your opponent out of cards is when manlands can really go to work.
River of Tears is cool but also ticking time bomb for a game warning. It's real easy to lose track of land drops. I'd play more buddy lands (Drowned Catacomb, Sulfur Falls etc.) which chain well with fetches and shocks.
I didn't think about the potential for a game warning with River of Tears. If you needed blue you have to tap prior to your land drop and float the mana. River of Tears requires a higher level of communication than most other lands. I think that this would more often be an oversight than a play limitation. Imagine fetching during an opponent's turn...
I never realized the awareness and potential foresight that River of Tears requires.
I didn't think about the potential for a game warning with River of Tears. If you needed blue you have to tap prior to your land drop and float the mana. River of Tears requires a higher level of communication than most other lands. I think that this would more often be an oversight than a play limitation. Imagine fetching during an opponent's turn...
I never realized the awareness and potential foresight that River of Tears requires.
It's just overcomplicated from a game-design standpoint.
Really, as a control player, you want your decisions to be fast and efficient. You don't really want to have to think long and hard about the way you're tapping your mana (am I leaving enough up for Bolt, Cryptic Command, Remand etc.? is the extent of thought you want to put into it) and River of Tears adds a layer of complexity.
It is good with IoK and Thoughtseize (since it checks itself), but that's about it.
Don't get me wrong, I like manlands, but I like lands that are untapped in the earlier part of the game. I'm running batterskull and keranos for back end wincons, manlands are as much about utility for me.
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Don't get me wrong, I like manlands, but I like lands that are untapped in the earlier part of the game. I'm running batterskull and keranos for back end wincons, manlands are as much about utility for me.
I can totally understand what you're looking for out of your manabase but having multiple win-cons helps with inevitability and ensure that the game ends in a timely manner. Running into someone with multiple Ghost Quarters or Tectonic Edges is not outrageous so having the extra manland can go a long way. Having multiple also lets you be aggressive when need be (against tron, scapeshift, etc.).
You really can't expect to be resolving Keranos and then grinding out the game against a player who has leveraged their mana above yours.
Against aggro decks, I've found that as long as you have early interaction, you should be fine. I mean, you're running enough fetches and buddy lands as it is.
Basically, what I'm saying is that there are some combo-control decks that go bigger than us and often the man-land aggro plan is the best plan (if there is even a plan at all) for beating them. This is why I'd advocate for no less than 4x Creeping Tar Pit.
I agree with lugger 4 cipt lands arent that many in the deck and a fairly small price to pay for a potential win condition, and i'd also add that given we probably do want 4 creeping tar pits (blue black duals) sulfur falls helps to balance out our blue red needs pretty well I have to say the checklands are such a great land since they do so much already AND they're good vs choke/boil. Just everything we could ask for. I've also heard that joe losset thing where he uses the blue white filterland in his legacy deck for similar reasons, and it sounds pretty reasonable its why i like playing a sunken ruins.
@atticus, a suggestion for ur manabase i'd say is that the urborg seems fairly unimportant to your manabase, especialyl given the absence of colorless lands, you are probably better served making that into something like a sulfur falls instead.
Technically i am not removing any 'Islands' from the list. I am theoretically changing my buddy lands for untapped lands that enable my Mountain, Swamp, Urborg, and Blood Crypt to also tap for blue.
I think that version 2 may be a little aggressive of a change. This will affect my percentages slightly (reduces my access to early red, reduces my chance of an early Dig Through Time). However, I think that what it adds (considering the potential for a choke) far outweighs the negative impact. I think that it is easier to make this maindeck change to my manabase than to use a SB slot (unless i can find something like Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb will add a significant edge in other difficult match-ups). SB hand disruption would also be a great idea to protect against the choke.
My Scalding Tarns and Polluted Deltas each have 9 targets. I don't remember what the 'right' balance of fetches to targets are for a control deck (I have read at least one article/comment proposing a number). When a Choke is in play, you have to consider each fetch to also be an island.
Well, I have been looking at this mana base (with Choke in consideration) a little closer and I found another couple of possibilities.
How relevant do you think that Urborg, the Tomb of Yawgmoth is? Tapping Fetch lands for black is pretty cute but do I really need this much access to black mana? Is it relevant?
I've made several posts across different threads over time about fetchland to mana producing land ratios. One way to look at it is start with a manabase that "works" and is known to be "optimal" through rigorous playtesting.
Let's look at the stock RUG delver mana base from legacy: 3 Volcanic Islands, 3 Tropical Islands, 4 Wastelands, 8 fetchlands. This 18 land build needs to effectively support 2 lands in play, zero double-casting cost spells, and only wants to draw the third land if it's a wasteland. if you back out the cantrips from the deck, using the +2 cantrips, -1 land rule of thumb, you get that those mana requirements are supported in a 22 land build. This is in line with what you'd expect, for example, from a white weenie deck in most standard formats. The ratio of fetches to fetchable lands? 4:3.
Look at a miracles mana base--this is more like cruel control, in that it's a control deck that wants to hit at least four land drops consecutively, intends to play a long game, and needs to have enough actual mana sources (not just fetches) to cast its spells. Let's look at Philip Schonegger's list, pretty much THE stock miracles list at this point: 4 island, 2 plains, 3 tundra, 3 volc, 9 fetches. Deck runs 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm, so again with our cantrip adjustment it goes up to 25 lands, with a 3-2 ratio of fetches to fetchable lands.
So, somewhere between 1.25 and 1.5 times the fetches as your fetchable lands seems to be our range for legacy. Taking that further, we need to consider that legacy benefits much more from the shuffle effects than modern does, so they err on the side of more fetch lands. Let's look at a stock jund mana base:
8 fetches 8 fetchable lands. To confirm my assumption, i'll look at a maverick list. One placed top 64 at the open: 7 fetches, 7 fetchables.
What I take away from these numbers is that, outside of decks that generate card quality by abusing the shuffles from fetchlands, approximately a 1 to 1 ratio of fetchlands to fetchable lands is what I see in legacy. These weren't cherry picked examples either, I looked at a bunch of other lists real quick on TC decks and a couple other places and saw time and again that non-blue decks were usually equal or off by 1 in the fetches to fetchables, while blue decks had a ratio between 1.2 and 1.5, with the most fetch-heavy deck being miracles and the delver decks being closest to the ground.
Given that modern games often are far grindier than legacy matchups, and that mana requirements are more stringent (even combo decks need 2-3 lands in play to go off), it seems plausible that mana bases should err further on the side of fewer potential dead fetchland draws. I know from my testing with esper that 6 fetches and 11 fetchable lands (10 and 9 targets each for strand and delta) still leaves me often in the position late game of having fetches in my deck or hand but with no actual targets to find--in a deck with better closing potential like grixis, you probably won't have that problem running a few more fetches as your games end sooner.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I have played both esper and Grixis and there is no way you could argue for esper being slower than grixis...I love casting cruel ultimatum but it is nowhere near the speed elspeth+ gideon can give you...or lingering souls beatdown after a Supreme verdict is even a potentially faster clock than we usually get with these lists.
No need to apologize, I agree that the Volcanic Fallout has great upside. The fact that it is uncounterable is pretty great. My point with my UR Delver match-up is that he had the perfect number of answers to an impossible number of sweepers from my side. I do not expect them to have that level of protection consistently. It is also important acknowledge that I did not have any counterspell back-up.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
UB Tezzerator
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B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Round 1 Abzan Birthing Pod (2-0)
Let's say that this was a great place to start the tournament.
- Game 1 He drew land heavy in and I was able to answer all of his relevant threats. He resolved a late game Shriekmaw and was able to attack in for 3. I played a Batterskull on the following turn with Cryptic Command back-up. Realizing that my BBD Germ token was black, he did not attack into me. I untapped, activated my Creeping Tar Pit, attached Batterskull and attacked. This took him from 14 to 7.
- Game 2 he fetched and shocked into a Noble Hierarch. I fetched into an Island and Dismembered his Noble. I spent the following turns keeping him off of lands. I won with creeping tar pit.
Round 2 Abzan Thune Pod (Draw)
I played my Pod opponent from yesterday's tournament.
- Game 1 went as predicted and I won with little effort.
- Game 2 he took my advise from our playtesting and brought in Choke from his SB. This card is nasty against my mana base. He locked me out of the game and beat-down with Siege Rhino.
- Game 3 went the same way as Game 2, he cast a choke in the late game but there was not enough pressure to finish the game before time was called.
Round 3 Affinity (0-2)
- Game 1 my opponent is on the play. Turn 1 Ornithopter, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, Darksteel Citadel, and Ensoul Artifact on his Ornithopter (yep, i was going to have a hard time winning that one).
- Game 2 I mulligan to a hand of Bolt, Spell Snare, Island, Shatterstorm. Before I can find and play a second land, he plays Choke. I didn't know that this was something that Affinity does.
I could still make it into the TOP 8 with 2 more wins.
Round 4 UR Delver (2-0)
I was able to counter his Treasure Cruise. I killed his Monastery Swiftspears after combat and he did not get an early delver. He could have mulligan more aggressively and not played into my counter spells.
- Game 1 was won with casting Keranos, God of Storms into an empty board and a tapped out opponent. I hit running lands with Keranos but was able to attack with Tar Pit and keep the board devoid of threats.
- Game 2 I answered 2 Young Pyromancers that he tapped out for on turn 2 and 3. He never really stabilized after that. I resolved a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir with perfect information from an earlier Vendilion Clique. He didn't concede but I could tell that he had given up.
Round 5 Abzan Pod (2-0)
I wish that I remembered my opening hand.
- Game 1 I was able to answer a couple of his early spells. He was able to maintain momentum, but i quickly ran out of answers. I believe that the issue was Gavony Township + Kitchen Finks I was never in a position where I could clear the board.
- Game 2 My pacing is starts at the same rate and maybe even a little better than Game 1. On turn 4 he Thoughtseizes me. I have Batterskull, Snapcaster, Cryptic, and Counterflux in hand with only the 3 mana for Counterflux available. I decide that this is a hand that is worth keeping and decide to Counterflux the Thoughtsieze. Then, with his remaining 3 mana he casts the only Choke in his 75. I fell for the bait but would not have had any answer to the Choke had he taken the Counterflux.
I did not make it to the TOP 8.
The lessons that I learned today are that choke is a nightmare and is my least favorite Magic card to see when playing Cruel Control.
Does anyone else have experience with Choke?
How do you deal with it if it resolves?
Is this something that we name with Slaughter Games if we think that they might bring it in?
I'm okay with Blood Moon, but Choke is miserable.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
This seems very promising in itself. I know that Joe Lossett was using this technology to combat Choke in Legacy Miracles.
The filter lands do provide new options for accessing Teferi and Cryptic mana. But they also introduce 3 variations of a 2 land opening hand that does not allow for access to blue mana on turn 2 (assuming that you do not draw a third land until turn 3). This may not be important for 7 land hands (it would be an easy mulligan decision). However I think that this might be relevant for 5-6 card hands.
Unless someone else is eager to do it, I'll work on the math later today.
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Technically i am not removing any 'Islands' from the list. I am theoretically changing my buddy lands for untapped lands that enable my Mountain, Swamp, Urborg, and Blood Crypt to also tap for blue.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruins
1 River of Tears
I think that version 2 may be a little aggressive of a change. This will affect my percentages slightly (reduces my access to early red, reduces my chance of an early Dig Through Time). However, I think that what it adds (considering the potential for a choke) far outweighs the negative impact. I think that it is easier to make this maindeck change to my manabase than to use a SB slot (unless i can find something like Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb will add a significant edge in other difficult match-ups). SB hand disruption would also be a great idea to protect against the choke.
My Scalding Tarns and Polluted Deltas each have 9 targets. I don't remember what the 'right' balance of fetches to targets are for a control deck (I have read at least one article/comment proposing a number). When a Choke is in play, you have to consider each fetch to also be an island.
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Manlands are generally how you're going to be killing people in this deck. They provide inevitability. I wouldn't run less than 4x. I run 5x by slotting in a Lavaclaw Reaches. They can't be countered and get the job done. 4 CIPT lands aren't going to hurt you that often.
Cruel Ultimatum is great but it's rarely for lethal unless you're flashing it back.
Once you run your opponent out of cards is when manlands can really go to work.
River of Tears is cool but also ticking time bomb for a game warning. It's real easy to lose track of land drops. I'd play more buddy lands (Drowned Catacomb, Sulfur Falls etc.) which chain well with fetches and shocks.
I never realized the awareness and potential foresight that River of Tears requires.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
It's just overcomplicated from a game-design standpoint.
Really, as a control player, you want your decisions to be fast and efficient. You don't really want to have to think long and hard about the way you're tapping your mana (am I leaving enough up for Bolt, Cryptic Command, Remand etc.? is the extent of thought you want to put into it) and River of Tears adds a layer of complexity.
It is good with IoK and Thoughtseize (since it checks itself), but that's about it.
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I can totally understand what you're looking for out of your manabase but having multiple win-cons helps with inevitability and ensure that the game ends in a timely manner. Running into someone with multiple Ghost Quarters or Tectonic Edges is not outrageous so having the extra manland can go a long way. Having multiple also lets you be aggressive when need be (against tron, scapeshift, etc.).
You really can't expect to be resolving Keranos and then grinding out the game against a player who has leveraged their mana above yours.
Against aggro decks, I've found that as long as you have early interaction, you should be fine. I mean, you're running enough fetches and buddy lands as it is.
Basically, what I'm saying is that there are some combo-control decks that go bigger than us and often the man-land aggro plan is the best plan (if there is even a plan at all) for beating them. This is why I'd advocate for no less than 4x Creeping Tar Pit.
@atticus, a suggestion for ur manabase i'd say is that the urborg seems fairly unimportant to your manabase, especialyl given the absence of colorless lands, you are probably better served making that into something like a sulfur falls instead.
Well, I have been looking at this mana base (with Choke in consideration) a little closer and I found another couple of possibilities.
How relevant do you think that Urborg, the Tomb of Yawgmoth is? Tapping Fetch lands for black is pretty cute but do I really need this much access to black mana? Is it relevant?
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Drowned Catacombs
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Drowned Catacombs
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruins
1 River of Tears
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
Let's look at the stock RUG delver mana base from legacy: 3 Volcanic Islands, 3 Tropical Islands, 4 Wastelands, 8 fetchlands. This 18 land build needs to effectively support 2 lands in play, zero double-casting cost spells, and only wants to draw the third land if it's a wasteland. if you back out the cantrips from the deck, using the +2 cantrips, -1 land rule of thumb, you get that those mana requirements are supported in a 22 land build. This is in line with what you'd expect, for example, from a white weenie deck in most standard formats. The ratio of fetches to fetchable lands? 4:3.
Look at a miracles mana base--this is more like cruel control, in that it's a control deck that wants to hit at least four land drops consecutively, intends to play a long game, and needs to have enough actual mana sources (not just fetches) to cast its spells. Let's look at Philip Schonegger's list, pretty much THE stock miracles list at this point: 4 island, 2 plains, 3 tundra, 3 volc, 9 fetches. Deck runs 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm, so again with our cantrip adjustment it goes up to 25 lands, with a 3-2 ratio of fetches to fetchable lands.
So, somewhere between 1.25 and 1.5 times the fetches as your fetchable lands seems to be our range for legacy. Taking that further, we need to consider that legacy benefits much more from the shuffle effects than modern does, so they err on the side of more fetch lands. Let's look at a stock jund mana base:
8 fetches 8 fetchable lands. To confirm my assumption, i'll look at a maverick list. One placed top 64 at the open: 7 fetches, 7 fetchables.
What I take away from these numbers is that, outside of decks that generate card quality by abusing the shuffles from fetchlands, approximately a 1 to 1 ratio of fetchlands to fetchable lands is what I see in legacy. These weren't cherry picked examples either, I looked at a bunch of other lists real quick on TC decks and a couple other places and saw time and again that non-blue decks were usually equal or off by 1 in the fetches to fetchables, while blue decks had a ratio between 1.2 and 1.5, with the most fetch-heavy deck being miracles and the delver decks being closest to the ground.
Given that modern games often are far grindier than legacy matchups, and that mana requirements are more stringent (even combo decks need 2-3 lands in play to go off), it seems plausible that mana bases should err further on the side of fewer potential dead fetchland draws. I know from my testing with esper that 6 fetches and 11 fetchable lands (10 and 9 targets each for strand and delta) still leaves me often in the position late game of having fetches in my deck or hand but with no actual targets to find--in a deck with better closing potential like grixis, you probably won't have that problem running a few more fetches as your games end sooner.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas