This deck is similar to Blue Moon in their gameplan. We play Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles to lock our opponents but we have a problem with Blood moon as we are playing( Miren the Moaning well, Academy ruins)if we play 4-3 blood moon MB, academy and miren will be useless.
I look at it slightly differently - I view Blood Moon as a card I really only want to play if it's winning me the game (or close). Against greedy 3-color decks, Tron decks, etc., I definitely want it. Against other decks with 6-12 basics, mana producers, and so on, I'm less excited about it, and likely won't play it/SB it in.
If I'm winning because of Blood Moon, I don't care about Academy Ruins or Miren - they're just not important anymore if your opponent can't cast spells. If they are important and you really feel like using those lands is Plan A in a matchup or specific game, then you certainly should NOT be casting Blood Moon anymore.
Went 3-0, beating Melira Pod 2-1, Mono-Green Devotion 2-0, and Zoo 2-1 if I recall.
A few thoughts:
- It seems like the White splash is far more logical than the green one at the moment - I'd rather have Timely, Purge, and Leyline over Nature's Claim and Thragtusk with the rise of Zoo and recent popularity of Storm after the DRS ban.
- Not sure the list needs a Mountain, but I thought I may need T1 Bolts and T3 Anger without excessive damage from the Shocklands enough to include one.
- Also unsure if Ghost Quarter/Crucible is maindeckable or worth it.
- May cut back down to 3 Spell Snare - not sure what belongs in the slot - maybe Expedition Map or Trading Post. I love Spell Snare, but I hate having zero cards in hand and a Bridge out and drawing one.
- The SB was mostly made up, but I liked the Timely Reinforcements and Leylines against Zoo.
- Went down to 2 Pithing Needle from 3 due to the lower presence of Jund and Tron in the DEs and at the Pro Tour.
- Went down to 1 Shackles, not sure it's correct. Didn't need the second today though.
- Sort of wanted Cryptic back, it's possible that there will be a few cuts, and +2 Cryptic +1 Expedition Map/Trading Post in the future.
- It sounds nuts to me, but the "Blue Moon" deck from PT:BNG is playing the full 4 Blood Moon MD. Is more than 1 correct nowadays?
Liked the list a lot for the most part - will be tuning it and making slight changes and improvements here and there over the next few weeks.
I really like having one chalice because it can easily steal a game. The deck has a natural gap at 2 cmc and 2 cmc happens to be important enough that most blue decks play spell snare. A chalice on two can stop helix, snapcaster, goyf, bob, leak, remand, etc... If 2 cmc isn't important for the opponent's deck I can just side it out.
Chalice seems well positioned - it's obviously good against Zoo, and Storm is picking up too. I've decided I also like having one floating around in my 75 for the SB games. If you know what artifact destruction they have in their SB, it basically makes all of your artifacts hexproof.
Does anyone have a preference? I'm starting to lean towards the Spellbomb simply because it hits the whole graveyard at once, cantrips and can be recurred. Though Relic's cantrip is colorless, scrabbling provides more passive graveyard hate than spellbomb, and tormod's is free.
I have been playing this deck for a while and I have some questions?
How do you win in time I Always go to time with this deck
And how do you get by on 24 lands I can't seem to hit my 3rd land drop on 26 and keeping a 2 land opener?
Also I want to use snapcaster mage in my deck but I know he is a trap with how many spells we run
Spell Snare is great but have you considered Izzet Charm in that slot.
With that in mind, you can use the other modes of the Charm late game to compliment your Bridge.
TonyRo posted this a couple posts up about Charm:
"I think by nature Tezzerator is a fairly slow, relatively mana-hungry deck, and so I love have a really good counterspell on the draw, and a counterspell that's good against other counterspells, as we can't afford to keep holding expensive cards. I'd prefer Spell Snare by a mile against Affinity, and against Zoo, I think both are basically garbage. Izzet Charm seems slow and really only hits Goblin Guide and an Experiment One. I'm not too excited sitting back against Zoo either, waiting for a chance to counter one of the burn spells. If Zoo becomes popular, I may cut the Izzet Charms for something else, probably a second Explosives and a flex card of some kind. While I'm on the subject, if Zoo becomes popular, I'd probably also switch from URg to URw for Timely Reinforcements."
On another note, is anyone playing Tezzerator at GP Richmond this weekend?
Izzet Charm is fine against Affinity, but I'd rather have Spell Snare against them by a mile. It hits all of their money cards and is far more efficient. There's a chance that Izzet Charm completely misses their first Plating, after which you may already be close to dead.
I was talking to someone about this deck, and they asked what advantages is has over playing Agent of Bolas and straight up UB. Could anyone give a good explanation of the difference in the decks?
1. Abuse Blood Moon by virtue of being basically Mono-Blue and half colorless.
2. Abuse Vedalken Shackles by virtue of having a large island count and a sac outlet (optional, but relevant, as most Shackles decks don't).
3. Abuse the tutors Trinket Mage and Tezzeret the Seeker. Having 7 tutors and 4 Thirst for Knowledge gives you very strong card selection, and the ability to have a strong package of answers for a lot of situations.
The decks are fundamentally very different. Tezzeret the Seeker (and to a lesser extent Trinket Mage) allows you to pull out the exact answer to any board state at any time. The toolbox approach combined with cards like Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, and Blood Moon make Tezzerator play out a lot more like a Prison deck. When you win with this deck, your opponent runs out of things to do. He can't cast any relevant spells, perhaps can't cast anything, can't attack, etc...
Agent of Bolas decks can't incorporate the toolbox approach effectively because Agent of Bolas doesn't tutor, he just impulses. So the lists typically don't play a huge number of one-ofs, and a straight UB version would probably not focus on Shackles or Blood Moon (obviously). The lists that I've seen have been either very midrangey and rampy with cards like Signets, Solemn and Wurmcoils/Karn, or still focused on the control route, but with a lot of Black spot removal and discard, Liliana, Damnation, etc. These decks typically need 4 Bridge as well, because Tezzeret can't immediately just find one.
So I have question. Why does this deck not play mana rocks such as Talisman of Dominance and the rest of their ilk? We have no turn two plays generally, and the Talisman's open up plays like turn 3 Trinket Mage + Choice of trinket/Cryptic Command mana/Ensnaring Bride+Spell Snare. On Turn 4 you get either Tezzeret/Trading Post+activation/Vedalken Shackles+activation. In addition, depending on your Talisman, you'll still have an open mana to either play a trinket on turn 2 or hold up that one mana for a turn 2 spell snare/galvanic blast. It also provides an additional avenue for metalcraft and makes Tezzeret easier to win off of.
It seems like the acceleration could very well be worth it. The only negative however is that it is not a stellar top deck and definitely does not help to draw when you're already flooding out, but it can at least serve as Thirst for Knowledge/Trading Post/Artificer's Intuition/Thopter Foundry fodder later on in the game.
I really wish their was a U/R Talisman.
Related to the first question, if we were to play rocks what would be the best number to play? I'm thinking between 3-5, but AoB lists run 6, though they have another avenue of using the rocks with AoB -1 turning them into beaters.
Went 2-2 in a DE with a modified version of Tony's deck. It's always heartbreaking to start 2-0 and finish 2-2.
I drew great lock pieces in my two wins vs RG tron and infect. Drawing spellskite vs infect is always dirty. And I was able to get chalice on 1 vs tron and infect.
I lost vs eggs, i'm pretty sure that guy had the nuts both games, he had the turn 4 silence on my upkeep so I couldn't cast the relic I got with my mage, then he fireballed me out on his turn. He also had natural tron on turn 3 and I broke it up with GQ and he still turn 4'd me. And game 2 he turn 5 fireballed me with a chalice on 2. Sadly pithing needle does not stop iron works.
The last loss was vs the mill deck. I took out those leylines Tony had, but I didn't draw the cards that I put in place of the leylines so I would have lost anyways. Although maybe I would have mulliganed to find them. I was thinking about adding a witchbane orb to the board.
Some thoughts. Trying to play chalice on 1 and having a bunch of 1 casting cost cards seems awful. It's even more awkward when you have chalice for 2 and a bunch of spell snares. I'm not sure what you can play instead of spell snare. That's the major issue I see with the deck. Maybe a miser repeal to bounce chalice/bridge? Can even bounce trinket mage for value.
The sideboard could use some work. I think it's worth playing rest in peace and probably more hate artifacts. I don't see the upside for defense grid. That's more of a combo archetype card where you protect your combo during the first 5 turns. The games with this deck go so long that the grid doesn't do much except protect one of your few bombs from mana leak/remand, You have to have your bomb and the correct mana (blood moon/ajani) to cast it along with the defense grid. Also I think there should be another way to stop stony silence besides spell snare.
I think the deck is probably 1 turn too slow, but i'm willing to give it another run though some events.
Say you have 4 planeswalkers, 3 blood moon and 1 shackles. You have to have one of those 8 cards in your opening hand, along with the defense grid.
And then if you want to resolve tezzeret through mana leak on turn 5, you have to have been on the play since your opponent would only have 4 lands. Every turn after turn 5 the card just gets worse and you hope to draw a thirst for knowledge to get rid of it. Defense grid seems much better in a combo deck that wins on turn 4-5.
The card seems high variance. I'd rather just play different hate artifacts.
You can't play anger of the gods. You need 19 red sources to cast it on turn 3. It is also awkward with blood moon and ajani. Blood moon wants you to have 2 basic islands, where as ajani wants you to have hallowed fountain. I would switch to pyroclasm.
I also think you want a tormod's crypt(in the sideboard) so you can nuke someone's graveyard on turn 3 when you tutor it up with trinket mage.
I think the deck needs some sort of card advantage artifact like trading post. Staff of nin cost too much. Plus post lets you sacrifice chalice, useless needles or a bridge. It lets you get back artifacts from the graveyard.
I'm not sure how to fix the spell snare problem. It might be worth it to play mana rocks over them, most likely mind stone.
I'm not sure I like the miser Miren, the Moaning Well without a way to tutor for it. But then again i'm not sure if expedition map is worth a slot in the deck.
With that said, I like the trinket mage targets, the blood moon plan, and the white splash. However I think the deck is a turn too slow in it's current configuration.
since when are you using your artifacts on the same turn you tutor for them? trading post only costs 4 mana. saying it costs 5 mana is like saying shackles costs 5 mana and X islands or relic of progenitus costs 2 mana
the whole deck is really slow, which is why I don't like it. It needs acceleration to keep up with the rest of the format, but sadly there are no city of traitors or ancient tomb lands, and chrome mox is banned.
I haven't played the deck for that long, so maybe Tony has already tested trading post and wrote it off. But I think trading post is probably better than ajani.
trinket mage is super slow, the deck has a ton of 3 cmc cards
all those 1 cmc cards are bad with chalice of the void, spell snare is bad with ensnaring bridge
anger of the gods and fire spout are bad with blood moon
there are so many inconsistencies with the deck. Combine that with it being slower than most other modern decks and you can see the problem with this deck
Simian spirit guide is actually a very viable suggestion. For some reason I only thought of gemstone caverns. SSG lets you slam chalice for 1 on turn 1
I gave up on the deck so i'm not too interested in trying to make a version that fixes all those issues. If Tony comes up with a new version i might test it.
The version Rickster played was both my first attempt at the deck after the bannings, and the first attempt with a White splash instead of Green. Zoo's popularity seems to be waning quite a bit, at least in the DEs that I've checked out, and it certainly hasn't made the splash that people expected.
There were some experimental cards in there that I don't normally play, and the mana base was slightly different as well. Off the top of my head, the differences from my normal list was that I was playing Anger, Ajani, an extra Explosives, Lightning Bolt instead of Galvanic Blast, and 2 Needles instead of 3. I cut Izzet Charms as well on account of fearing 3 toughness guys. Moving back to lists closer to the URg lists (but still with a White splash) will make the deck run smoother. Ajani and Anger stress the mana base quite a bit.
Rickster brings up some good points, and they're all things that I've noticed too. Spell Snare is annoying with Bridge, Firespout has an annoying CMC, and Chalice is annoying with Bolt and Snare. I have a few comments though:
1. Moving forward, I'd ditch Anger, Ajani, and the second Explosives. The list Rickster tested was skewed towards beating Zoo in the first few weeks of unbannings. I'd probably also move back to Blast over Bolt. There is just too big of a benefit to hitting 4 toughness. If Zoo isn't popular, then Modern naturally has a very large gap at 3 toughness - there's very few of them. Everything Bolt kills Blast kills too, but Blast also kills Resto, Exarch, Courser, bigger Merfolk, and the miser's Teferi.
2. If you want a sweeper, I'd MD or SB a Pyroclasm or two. The deck has a high curve, and the suite of Pyroclasm, Blast, and possibly Izzet Charm or a quick Explosives really helps out there. If you make the changes in #1 and #2 above, you're basically conceeding G1 to Zoo, but I'm not sure I actually care at this exact moment.
3. Rickster brought up Chalice on 1 quite a bit, but I'd say that I put Chalice on 1 in probably only about 5-10% of the games where I cast it. Because it's such a hassle with Blast and Spell Snare, I only put it on 1 if it's absolutely crippling for the other guy, e.g. the UWR Delver decks that were mostly 1 CMC cards, Infect, etc...or to stop SB hate like Nature's Claim against Tron when I'm trying to lock them out. And even when I do that, the timing is delicate if I have 1 CMC cards in my had - I try to find a way to get rid of these cards first, or at least make sure I have a Thirst. Now, Chalice on 2 is still awkward with Spell Snare, but what can you do? It's obvious the deck is slow, and I love the efficiency of Spell Snare. We could move to Remand, but that much slower, and still bad with Chalice on 2. TLDR - I only put Chalice on 1 if it's so strong that I don't care about stuffing my future Blasts and Snares.
4. In my URg versions, I loved the 1-of Map - if you're playing stuff like Miren, Academy Ruins, Ghost Quarter, and Crucible, the thing is so good.
5. I have been noticing a ton of 6-7 discard + Liliana decks, Burn, and Storm/Ad Nauseum/Scapeshift decks in the DEs. If you're splashing White, I'd probably max out on Leylines, at lease in initial testing.
6. I like Defense Grid a ton in the UWR Control, UR Faeries, and U-Tron matchups, and basically nowhere else. This deck has some really powerful, high CMC spells you're trying to resolve, and against decks with high numbers of Remands, Mana Leaks, and even Condescends, it can be really hard to get off of the ground without them. The problem is that in matchups like UWR, they're going to hit a lot more land drops than you are - they have 26 lands and Think Twices. You simply can't keep up, and so you need a way to stick things like Shackles or things that can win those matchups on their own like Blood Moon or Crucible. I'm not saying it's perfect, but in the matchups where it's good, it's better than pretty much anything else. Those decks aren't particularly popular now, so I'm not sure I'd have those in my SB right now.
7. I have tested Mind Stone before and thought it was okay, but I didn't get that many games in. My only gripe was that it doesn't help you with 3 CMC cards all that much - a little bit, because cards like Shackles and Trinket Mage can utilize the mana anyway, but it's not perfect. I'd like to find some time and space in the deck to test Mind Stone some more. I can convince myself that it could be really good.
8. Tormod's Crypt in the board sounds very reasonable. I like having Relic MD because it doesn't cost you a card, but Crypt in the board makes some sense.
9. I think Hibernation is interesting at the moment, but I've never tested it. Mono-Green is picking up steam, and it's worth considering vs. Birthing Pod and the Courser/Goyf/Finks/Ooze decks.
10. I'm not going to post a list I haven't test a lot (it seems to have backfired a bit on Rickster, and I apologize for that), but I think the list that I start with would probably look closer to post #674 (page 27) than the UWR list that has been discussed a bit from a page or two ago. My initial testing list will definitely splash White instead of Green and will probably have 1 less Needle now that DRS is gone and Tron is less popular, but other than that it'd be in the same ballpark. Different SB given the White splash too. I'll definitely report back once I start testing a lot more. Lately I've been busy with a long expired book deadline. I must finish and rid myself of it.
11. I haven't found Miren to be much of a problem, mostly because the deck is half colorless. I think you mostly get this benefit for free if you're careful about fetching and opening hand selection.
12. Trading Post has been suggested a bunch of times and ContraEgo really likes it. It's another card I haven't had time to test that much, but I think there's a lot of potential for greatness there. You can ditch that random cards in your hand that suck (from Chalice, late-game Spell Snares, Silver Bullets that don't do anything in the current matchup, etc...), gain life against Burn decks, toss Bridges, etc. There's a ton of utility there, it's just a matter of whether or not it's better than the card you cut for it, and if the CMC is tolerable given the decks already high curve. If someone tests before me, please report back.
13. Cryptic Command is another card that I was playing before and that I'm not now. Again, tons of utility with a very high power level, just a question of whether or not it's exactly what the decks wants, and if you can tolerate the 4 CMC. I'm playing Izzet Charms instead because I like the early interaction and late game filtering of things like Spell Snares and random extra lands/silver bullets.
14. Lastly, I think that if you like the idea of the deck and you enjoy playing it, play it a bit more to try and really get the hang of it. I find my games going a lot smoother now that I've gotten a ton of games in. I think you have to think about playing this deck in a different way and understand your end goals in every matchup a bit more. All the tutoring, silver bullets, and weird utility lands/mana base make the deck tough to play.
2) 3 mana sweepers are fine, it's just the color requirements, the color requirements don't mix well with blood moon, plus you don't have enough red/green sources to reliably cast firespout/anger on turn 3
3) maybe chalice isn't that good, but when it's good it's really good
i was wondering if you could cut most of the 1 drops and copy a legacy tezzeret list, watching Joe Lossett stream it in legacy is pretty sweet, though i guess there are too many differences between modern and legacy that it might not be worth testing
legacy has more mana ramp, in the form of sol lands, and a lot more decks have cheap curves where chalice on 1 is back breaking
6) defense grid seems so high variance. You have to have it and your bomb card in your hand for it to do anything. it's like a 2 card combo that's only good in the first 5 turns. when I draw my hate card late game i still want them to be relevant
9) hibernation is also good vs bogles
14) I could play the deck more and get better at it, but that doesn't change those inconsistencies. I'd rather improve the deck than improve my play skill with an unpolished deck
Take with a grain of salt cause I've been playing my UB (Bolas) Tezzeret build over this one recently (shameless plug), but I've been thinking about trying it out again.
You are right on about Chalice, really strong against certain decks, although rather than cutting 1 drops I think its place is solidly in the sideboard, or a 1 of maindeck to smash decks like living end. No Sol lands make it much weaker.
Also, if I could afford the Legacy manabase I'd make that deck in a second, I love watching Joe play it.
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2. In a metagame where Zoo isn't prevalent, I'd prefer Pyroclasm over almost anything else anyway. The decks curve is high enough and clogged at 3 CMC as is. Pyroclasm is really as good as it gets unless you expect a lot of Merfolk. Then I might want something that could sweep through one Lord.
6. Defense Grid was far and away the best I could find against UWR if you're already maxed out on Blood Moons. You can try a more tame plan with something like Cliques, Negate, and Spell Pierce, but those are low impact, situational, and not nearly as powerful. The thing is that in that matchup, if you don't draw it right away, you have time. And if you draw it without your bombs, you have time, and it's not like anything else would have really been better. Like I said, this is not a problem we really have to solve - I wouldn't play any at the moment anyway. When it was popular and the DEs were crawling with them, I was super excited to see it at nearly any time in the game.
9. Yes, true! Bogles is, in my experience, one of this deck's best matchups anyway. Gotta be upwards of 80% if I had to guess. Spellskite, Explosives, and Bridge MD make for an almost unloseable G1.
14. Inconsistencies don't necessarily make a deck bad - if a deck is good it's good, and if a deck is bad it's bad. The very nature of the deck mean that there will be inconsistencies - it's a toolbox deck, with different and distinct paths to victory depending on what deck you're up against. Some Relic sucks, sometimes it's the bomb. Sometimes you get stuck with a Spell Snare in your hand with Bridge out, but sometimes Merfolk or Bogles scoop to Bridge immediately. Sometimes you Spellskite Twin or Bogles, and sometimes you rip Spellskite against Affinity and it does actual nothing.
You assume the deck is unpolished because it has inconsistencies, but I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. The best a deck can get can still have them, and still be awesome. "Mathematically" that argument makes little sense. I think we can both agree that it's possible for unpolished players (with a given deck, I have no doubt you're a good MTG player) with a great deck can still have meager results, and it's not the decks fault. I'm not sure we're at a global optimum with Tezzerator (in fact I'm sure we're not), but that's not to say that we're not reasonable close to the point where a card here or a card there will make a huge difference, even with all of the tutors.
I agree that as many should be wrinkles ironed out as possible, but I think some are inevitable with an archetype like this in such a large open metagame.
I also agree that there's just too much that's different between Modern and Legacy to make UB Tezzeret work the way it does in Legacy. The biggest reasons in my opinion are:
1. No Jace.
2. No Sol lands.
3. Chalice on 1 means very little in the vast majority of Modern matchups.
4. Thopter/Sword isn't legal.
It has been a while since I posted in here, but some observations:
Anger of the Gods has been great. I went up to 3 Steam Vents, bringing my total number of red sources to 12. You don't need to hit it turn 3, that is why you are running other removal. In fact it will be more devastating if you hold it.
I only run one Bridge, but having a spread of planeswalkers has been really good for me. Right now I run 2 Tezzeret, 1 Ajani Vengeant and 1 Tamiyo (yup). This way you get multiple walkers in play more often. Ajani and Tamiyo do good work on opposing mana bases too.
I started running Elixir of Immortality again and have been doing a lot better. Being able to gain 5 life is actually pretty big.
Trading Post has been awesome. Again, lifegain is important. As is recursion and getting rid of stuff you take with Shackles.
I run Mox Opal, which helps with getting everything casted under a Blood Moon.
Testing the Tezzerator again, this time URw. Will post a list when I feel as though the MD and SB are at least moderately tuned and to my liking. I am 3-2 in some 8 mans so far, wins against Splinter Twin, Merfolk, and UR Delver. Losses against Affinity and UWR Control, both 1-2. Some initial thoughts:
1. Trading Post has been pretty good. Late game you can drop it and immediately use it, it can be used the turn Tezzeret seeks it up, and it's SUPER sweet with Tezzeret's +1. The ability to ditch cards that are useless because of Chalice is awesome, and having multiple ways to get rid of Bridge and stolen creatures with Shackles is nice. The life gain has been relevant. This card will likely stay for a while.
2. Not sure Crucible/GQ is cutting it for me anymore, I find myself SB'ing it out a lot.
3. I think it's safe and prudent to go back to Blasts from Bolts.
4. My initial list didn't have the Pyrite Spellbomb, but I want that thing back.
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I look at it slightly differently - I view Blood Moon as a card I really only want to play if it's winning me the game (or close). Against greedy 3-color decks, Tron decks, etc., I definitely want it. Against other decks with 6-12 basics, mana producers, and so on, I'm less excited about it, and likely won't play it/SB it in.
If I'm winning because of Blood Moon, I don't care about Academy Ruins or Miren - they're just not important anymore if your opponent can't cast spells. If they are important and you really feel like using those lands is Plan A in a matchup or specific game, then you certainly should NOT be casting Blood Moon anymore.
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4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
1 Mountain
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
Creatures (6)
4 Trinket Mage
2 Spellskite
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Spell Snare
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Blood Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Opal
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Blood Moon
2 Defense Grid
2 Torpor Orb
1 Celestial Purge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Welding Jar
Went 3-0, beating Melira Pod 2-1, Mono-Green Devotion 2-0, and Zoo 2-1 if I recall.
A few thoughts:
- It seems like the White splash is far more logical than the green one at the moment - I'd rather have Timely, Purge, and Leyline over Nature's Claim and Thragtusk with the rise of Zoo and recent popularity of Storm after the DRS ban.
- Not sure the list needs a Mountain, but I thought I may need T1 Bolts and T3 Anger without excessive damage from the Shocklands enough to include one.
- Also unsure if Ghost Quarter/Crucible is maindeckable or worth it.
- May cut back down to 3 Spell Snare - not sure what belongs in the slot - maybe Expedition Map or Trading Post. I love Spell Snare, but I hate having zero cards in hand and a Bridge out and drawing one.
- The SB was mostly made up, but I liked the Timely Reinforcements and Leylines against Zoo.
- Went down to 2 Pithing Needle from 3 due to the lower presence of Jund and Tron in the DEs and at the Pro Tour.
- Went down to 1 Shackles, not sure it's correct. Didn't need the second today though.
- Sort of wanted Cryptic back, it's possible that there will be a few cuts, and +2 Cryptic +1 Expedition Map/Trading Post in the future.
- It sounds nuts to me, but the "Blue Moon" deck from PT:BNG is playing the full 4 Blood Moon MD. Is more than 1 correct nowadays?
Liked the list a lot for the most part - will be tuning it and making slight changes and improvements here and there over the next few weeks.
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Does anyone have a preference? I'm starting to lean towards the Spellbomb simply because it hits the whole graveyard at once, cantrips and can be recurred. Though Relic's cantrip is colorless, scrabbling provides more passive graveyard hate than spellbomb, and tormod's is free.
How do you win in time I Always go to time with this deck
And how do you get by on 24 lands I can't seem to hit my 3rd land drop on 26 and keeping a 2 land opener?
Also I want to use snapcaster mage in my deck but I know he is a trap with how many spells we run
Spell Snare is great but have you considered Izzet Charm in that slot.
With that in mind, you can use the other modes of the Charm late game to compliment your Bridge.
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TonyRo posted this a couple posts up about Charm:
"I think by nature Tezzerator is a fairly slow, relatively mana-hungry deck, and so I love have a really good counterspell on the draw, and a counterspell that's good against other counterspells, as we can't afford to keep holding expensive cards. I'd prefer Spell Snare by a mile against Affinity, and against Zoo, I think both are basically garbage. Izzet Charm seems slow and really only hits Goblin Guide and an Experiment One. I'm not too excited sitting back against Zoo either, waiting for a chance to counter one of the burn spells. If Zoo becomes popular, I may cut the Izzet Charms for something else, probably a second Explosives and a flex card of some kind. While I'm on the subject, if Zoo becomes popular, I'd probably also switch from URg to URw for Timely Reinforcements."
On another note, is anyone playing Tezzerator at GP Richmond this weekend?
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1. Abuse Blood Moon by virtue of being basically Mono-Blue and half colorless.
2. Abuse Vedalken Shackles by virtue of having a large island count and a sac outlet (optional, but relevant, as most Shackles decks don't).
3. Abuse the tutors Trinket Mage and Tezzeret the Seeker. Having 7 tutors and 4 Thirst for Knowledge gives you very strong card selection, and the ability to have a strong package of answers for a lot of situations.
The decks are fundamentally very different. Tezzeret the Seeker (and to a lesser extent Trinket Mage) allows you to pull out the exact answer to any board state at any time. The toolbox approach combined with cards like Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, and Blood Moon make Tezzerator play out a lot more like a Prison deck. When you win with this deck, your opponent runs out of things to do. He can't cast any relevant spells, perhaps can't cast anything, can't attack, etc...
Agent of Bolas decks can't incorporate the toolbox approach effectively because Agent of Bolas doesn't tutor, he just impulses. So the lists typically don't play a huge number of one-ofs, and a straight UB version would probably not focus on Shackles or Blood Moon (obviously). The lists that I've seen have been either very midrangey and rampy with cards like Signets, Solemn and Wurmcoils/Karn, or still focused on the control route, but with a lot of Black spot removal and discard, Liliana, Damnation, etc. These decks typically need 4 Bridge as well, because Tezzeret can't immediately just find one.
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It seems like the acceleration could very well be worth it. The only negative however is that it is not a stellar top deck and definitely does not help to draw when you're already flooding out, but it can at least serve as Thirst for Knowledge/Trading Post/Artificer's Intuition/Thopter Foundry fodder later on in the game.
I really wish their was a U/R Talisman.
Related to the first question, if we were to play rocks what would be the best number to play? I'm thinking between 3-5, but AoB lists run 6, though they have another avenue of using the rocks with AoB -1 turning them into beaters.
Went 2-2 in a DE with a modified version of Tony's deck. It's always heartbreaking to start 2-0 and finish 2-2.
I drew great lock pieces in my two wins vs RG tron and infect. Drawing spellskite vs infect is always dirty. And I was able to get chalice on 1 vs tron and infect.
I lost vs eggs, i'm pretty sure that guy had the nuts both games, he had the turn 4 silence on my upkeep so I couldn't cast the relic I got with my mage, then he fireballed me out on his turn. He also had natural tron on turn 3 and I broke it up with GQ and he still turn 4'd me. And game 2 he turn 5 fireballed me with a chalice on 2. Sadly pithing needle does not stop iron works.
The last loss was vs the mill deck. I took out those leylines Tony had, but I didn't draw the cards that I put in place of the leylines so I would have lost anyways. Although maybe I would have mulliganed to find them. I was thinking about adding a witchbane orb to the board.
Some thoughts. Trying to play chalice on 1 and having a bunch of 1 casting cost cards seems awful. It's even more awkward when you have chalice for 2 and a bunch of spell snares. I'm not sure what you can play instead of spell snare. That's the major issue I see with the deck. Maybe a miser repeal to bounce chalice/bridge? Can even bounce trinket mage for value.
The sideboard could use some work. I think it's worth playing rest in peace and probably more hate artifacts. I don't see the upside for defense grid. That's more of a combo archetype card where you protect your combo during the first 5 turns. The games with this deck go so long that the grid doesn't do much except protect one of your few bombs from mana leak/remand, You have to have your bomb and the correct mana (blood moon/ajani) to cast it along with the defense grid. Also I think there should be another way to stop stony silence besides spell snare.
I think the deck is probably 1 turn too slow, but i'm willing to give it another run though some events.
it's a fine sideboard card
And then if you want to resolve tezzeret through mana leak on turn 5, you have to have been on the play since your opponent would only have 4 lands. Every turn after turn 5 the card just gets worse and you hope to draw a thirst for knowledge to get rid of it. Defense grid seems much better in a combo deck that wins on turn 4-5.
The card seems high variance. I'd rather just play different hate artifacts.
You can't play anger of the gods. You need 19 red sources to cast it on turn 3. It is also awkward with blood moon and ajani. Blood moon wants you to have 2 basic islands, where as ajani wants you to have hallowed fountain. I would switch to pyroclasm.
I also think you want a tormod's crypt(in the sideboard) so you can nuke someone's graveyard on turn 3 when you tutor it up with trinket mage.
I think the deck needs some sort of card advantage artifact like trading post. Staff of nin cost too much. Plus post lets you sacrifice chalice, useless needles or a bridge. It lets you get back artifacts from the graveyard.
I'm not sure how to fix the spell snare problem. It might be worth it to play mana rocks over them, most likely mind stone.
I'm not sure I like the miser Miren, the Moaning Well without a way to tutor for it. But then again i'm not sure if expedition map is worth a slot in the deck.
With that said, I like the trinket mage targets, the blood moon plan, and the white splash. However I think the deck is a turn too slow in it's current configuration.
the whole deck is really slow, which is why I don't like it. It needs acceleration to keep up with the rest of the format, but sadly there are no city of traitors or ancient tomb lands, and chrome mox is banned.
I haven't played the deck for that long, so maybe Tony has already tested trading post and wrote it off. But I think trading post is probably better than ajani.
all those 1 cmc cards are bad with chalice of the void, spell snare is bad with ensnaring bridge
anger of the gods and fire spout are bad with blood moon
there are so many inconsistencies with the deck. Combine that with it being slower than most other modern decks and you can see the problem with this deck
Simian spirit guide is actually a very viable suggestion. For some reason I only thought of gemstone caverns. SSG lets you slam chalice for 1 on turn 1
I gave up on the deck so i'm not too interested in trying to make a version that fixes all those issues. If Tony comes up with a new version i might test it.
There were some experimental cards in there that I don't normally play, and the mana base was slightly different as well. Off the top of my head, the differences from my normal list was that I was playing Anger, Ajani, an extra Explosives, Lightning Bolt instead of Galvanic Blast, and 2 Needles instead of 3. I cut Izzet Charms as well on account of fearing 3 toughness guys. Moving back to lists closer to the URg lists (but still with a White splash) will make the deck run smoother. Ajani and Anger stress the mana base quite a bit.
Rickster brings up some good points, and they're all things that I've noticed too. Spell Snare is annoying with Bridge, Firespout has an annoying CMC, and Chalice is annoying with Bolt and Snare. I have a few comments though:
1. Moving forward, I'd ditch Anger, Ajani, and the second Explosives. The list Rickster tested was skewed towards beating Zoo in the first few weeks of unbannings. I'd probably also move back to Blast over Bolt. There is just too big of a benefit to hitting 4 toughness. If Zoo isn't popular, then Modern naturally has a very large gap at 3 toughness - there's very few of them. Everything Bolt kills Blast kills too, but Blast also kills Resto, Exarch, Courser, bigger Merfolk, and the miser's Teferi.
2. If you want a sweeper, I'd MD or SB a Pyroclasm or two. The deck has a high curve, and the suite of Pyroclasm, Blast, and possibly Izzet Charm or a quick Explosives really helps out there. If you make the changes in #1 and #2 above, you're basically conceeding G1 to Zoo, but I'm not sure I actually care at this exact moment.
3. Rickster brought up Chalice on 1 quite a bit, but I'd say that I put Chalice on 1 in probably only about 5-10% of the games where I cast it. Because it's such a hassle with Blast and Spell Snare, I only put it on 1 if it's absolutely crippling for the other guy, e.g. the UWR Delver decks that were mostly 1 CMC cards, Infect, etc...or to stop SB hate like Nature's Claim against Tron when I'm trying to lock them out. And even when I do that, the timing is delicate if I have 1 CMC cards in my had - I try to find a way to get rid of these cards first, or at least make sure I have a Thirst. Now, Chalice on 2 is still awkward with Spell Snare, but what can you do? It's obvious the deck is slow, and I love the efficiency of Spell Snare. We could move to Remand, but that much slower, and still bad with Chalice on 2. TLDR - I only put Chalice on 1 if it's so strong that I don't care about stuffing my future Blasts and Snares.
4. In my URg versions, I loved the 1-of Map - if you're playing stuff like Miren, Academy Ruins, Ghost Quarter, and Crucible, the thing is so good.
5. I have been noticing a ton of 6-7 discard + Liliana decks, Burn, and Storm/Ad Nauseum/Scapeshift decks in the DEs. If you're splashing White, I'd probably max out on Leylines, at lease in initial testing.
6. I like Defense Grid a ton in the UWR Control, UR Faeries, and U-Tron matchups, and basically nowhere else. This deck has some really powerful, high CMC spells you're trying to resolve, and against decks with high numbers of Remands, Mana Leaks, and even Condescends, it can be really hard to get off of the ground without them. The problem is that in matchups like UWR, they're going to hit a lot more land drops than you are - they have 26 lands and Think Twices. You simply can't keep up, and so you need a way to stick things like Shackles or things that can win those matchups on their own like Blood Moon or Crucible. I'm not saying it's perfect, but in the matchups where it's good, it's better than pretty much anything else. Those decks aren't particularly popular now, so I'm not sure I'd have those in my SB right now.
7. I have tested Mind Stone before and thought it was okay, but I didn't get that many games in. My only gripe was that it doesn't help you with 3 CMC cards all that much - a little bit, because cards like Shackles and Trinket Mage can utilize the mana anyway, but it's not perfect. I'd like to find some time and space in the deck to test Mind Stone some more. I can convince myself that it could be really good.
8. Tormod's Crypt in the board sounds very reasonable. I like having Relic MD because it doesn't cost you a card, but Crypt in the board makes some sense.
9. I think Hibernation is interesting at the moment, but I've never tested it. Mono-Green is picking up steam, and it's worth considering vs. Birthing Pod and the Courser/Goyf/Finks/Ooze decks.
10. I'm not going to post a list I haven't test a lot (it seems to have backfired a bit on Rickster, and I apologize for that), but I think the list that I start with would probably look closer to post #674 (page 27) than the UWR list that has been discussed a bit from a page or two ago. My initial testing list will definitely splash White instead of Green and will probably have 1 less Needle now that DRS is gone and Tron is less popular, but other than that it'd be in the same ballpark. Different SB given the White splash too. I'll definitely report back once I start testing a lot more. Lately I've been busy with a long expired book deadline. I must finish and rid myself of it.
11. I haven't found Miren to be much of a problem, mostly because the deck is half colorless. I think you mostly get this benefit for free if you're careful about fetching and opening hand selection.
12. Trading Post has been suggested a bunch of times and ContraEgo really likes it. It's another card I haven't had time to test that much, but I think there's a lot of potential for greatness there. You can ditch that random cards in your hand that suck (from Chalice, late-game Spell Snares, Silver Bullets that don't do anything in the current matchup, etc...), gain life against Burn decks, toss Bridges, etc. There's a ton of utility there, it's just a matter of whether or not it's better than the card you cut for it, and if the CMC is tolerable given the decks already high curve. If someone tests before me, please report back.
13. Cryptic Command is another card that I was playing before and that I'm not now. Again, tons of utility with a very high power level, just a question of whether or not it's exactly what the decks wants, and if you can tolerate the 4 CMC. I'm playing Izzet Charms instead because I like the early interaction and late game filtering of things like Spell Snares and random extra lands/silver bullets.
14. Lastly, I think that if you like the idea of the deck and you enjoy playing it, play it a bit more to try and really get the hang of it. I find my games going a lot smoother now that I've gotten a ton of games in. I think you have to think about playing this deck in a different way and understand your end goals in every matchup a bit more. All the tutoring, silver bullets, and weird utility lands/mana base make the deck tough to play.
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3) maybe chalice isn't that good, but when it's good it's really good
i was wondering if you could cut most of the 1 drops and copy a legacy tezzeret list, watching Joe Lossett stream it in legacy is pretty sweet, though i guess there are too many differences between modern and legacy that it might not be worth testing
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/96112
legacy has more mana ramp, in the form of sol lands, and a lot more decks have cheap curves where chalice on 1 is back breaking
6) defense grid seems so high variance. You have to have it and your bomb card in your hand for it to do anything. it's like a 2 card combo that's only good in the first 5 turns. when I draw my hate card late game i still want them to be relevant
9) hibernation is also good vs bogles
14) I could play the deck more and get better at it, but that doesn't change those inconsistencies. I'd rather improve the deck than improve my play skill with an unpolished deck
You are right on about Chalice, really strong against certain decks, although rather than cutting 1 drops I think its place is solidly in the sideboard, or a 1 of maindeck to smash decks like living end. No Sol lands make it much weaker.
Also, if I could afford the Legacy manabase I'd make that deck in a second, I love watching Joe play it.
Modern:
Tezzeret
???
Legacy:
Imperial Painter aka. Strawberry Shortcake
Tezzeret, aka. Dack in Black
6. Defense Grid was far and away the best I could find against UWR if you're already maxed out on Blood Moons. You can try a more tame plan with something like Cliques, Negate, and Spell Pierce, but those are low impact, situational, and not nearly as powerful. The thing is that in that matchup, if you don't draw it right away, you have time. And if you draw it without your bombs, you have time, and it's not like anything else would have really been better. Like I said, this is not a problem we really have to solve - I wouldn't play any at the moment anyway. When it was popular and the DEs were crawling with them, I was super excited to see it at nearly any time in the game.
9. Yes, true! Bogles is, in my experience, one of this deck's best matchups anyway. Gotta be upwards of 80% if I had to guess. Spellskite, Explosives, and Bridge MD make for an almost unloseable G1.
14. Inconsistencies don't necessarily make a deck bad - if a deck is good it's good, and if a deck is bad it's bad. The very nature of the deck mean that there will be inconsistencies - it's a toolbox deck, with different and distinct paths to victory depending on what deck you're up against. Some Relic sucks, sometimes it's the bomb. Sometimes you get stuck with a Spell Snare in your hand with Bridge out, but sometimes Merfolk or Bogles scoop to Bridge immediately. Sometimes you Spellskite Twin or Bogles, and sometimes you rip Spellskite against Affinity and it does actual nothing.
You assume the deck is unpolished because it has inconsistencies, but I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. The best a deck can get can still have them, and still be awesome. "Mathematically" that argument makes little sense. I think we can both agree that it's possible for unpolished players (with a given deck, I have no doubt you're a good MTG player) with a great deck can still have meager results, and it's not the decks fault. I'm not sure we're at a global optimum with Tezzerator (in fact I'm sure we're not), but that's not to say that we're not reasonable close to the point where a card here or a card there will make a huge difference, even with all of the tutors.
I agree that as many should be wrinkles ironed out as possible, but I think some are inevitable with an archetype like this in such a large open metagame.
I also agree that there's just too much that's different between Modern and Legacy to make UB Tezzeret work the way it does in Legacy. The biggest reasons in my opinion are:
1. No Jace.
2. No Sol lands.
3. Chalice on 1 means very little in the vast majority of Modern matchups.
4. Thopter/Sword isn't legal.
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Anger of the Gods has been great. I went up to 3 Steam Vents, bringing my total number of red sources to 12. You don't need to hit it turn 3, that is why you are running other removal. In fact it will be more devastating if you hold it.
I only run one Bridge, but having a spread of planeswalkers has been really good for me. Right now I run 2 Tezzeret, 1 Ajani Vengeant and 1 Tamiyo (yup). This way you get multiple walkers in play more often. Ajani and Tamiyo do good work on opposing mana bases too.
I started running Elixir of Immortality again and have been doing a lot better. Being able to gain 5 life is actually pretty big.
Trading Post has been awesome. Again, lifegain is important. As is recursion and getting rid of stuff you take with Shackles.
I run Mox Opal, which helps with getting everything casted under a Blood Moon.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
1. Trading Post has been pretty good. Late game you can drop it and immediately use it, it can be used the turn Tezzeret seeks it up, and it's SUPER sweet with Tezzeret's +1. The ability to ditch cards that are useless because of Chalice is awesome, and having multiple ways to get rid of Bridge and stolen creatures with Shackles is nice. The life gain has been relevant. This card will likely stay for a while.
2. Not sure Crucible/GQ is cutting it for me anymore, I find myself SB'ing it out a lot.
3. I think it's safe and prudent to go back to Blasts from Bolts.
4. My initial list didn't have the Pyrite Spellbomb, but I want that thing back.
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