would these cards not be able to be worked into this list, too much aggro? sorry noob deck building question
Too much aggro is fine, provided you have enough gas to push the damage through consistently.
Other than Mentor of the Meek, can a soldier deck even obtain enough card draw if it does not have a blue splash? Without card draw, the only other way to gain advantage is through soldier token generation, which is why Precinct Captain might help.
Precinct Captain can be helpful, I think he is best in decks which run anthems or are in Boros colors. With Captain we really want to be attacking with him all the time to generate tokens or at least kill opposing creatures, but as a 2/2 he can be very underwhelming from an aggressive viewpoint. We need to either booster his P/T with anthems or clear the path for him to attack. Also the anthem works well for the soldier tokens too. In theory, a 2nd turn Precinct Captain into a 3rd turn Brimaz, plus anthem spells does seems like a very attractive attacking proposition.
This deck does not look like it could win at a competitive level. You might be winning at your local FNM with this deck, but it probably would not stand up in a larger, tighter tournament.
Path to Exile is the best 1-mana creature exile available and should take the place of Unmake. The card is also almost always a 4-of. Mentor of the Meek is going to lose its effectiveness the moment your soldiers get buffed past 2 power, so a 4-of of those is not that great.
You never want to sideboard basic land. In addition, your land count is low (at 20) for the number of 4 or more mana cards you have.
Yeah, I think we can all agree the list is pretty baffling and needs a bit of an overhaul -- but let's change the subject a bit:
Since this thread hasn't really seen any activity in a while, anyone see any toys in [KTK] that look like fun? Herald of Anafenza probably got more attention, but I personally like the look of Abzan Falconer -- if only for its passive ability -- which pairs nicely with Champion of the Parish, Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster or Heroic (if you go that route). I can't complain about the cheap Outlast, either. There's also High Sentinels of Arashin, which is protected from Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay and is a good mana sink (how often does that come up in WW?), but I can't see running this over other more powerful spells that high on the curve.
Yeah, I think we can all agree the list is pretty baffling and needs a bit of an overhaul -- but let's change the subject a bit:
Since this thread hasn't really seen any activity in a while, anyone see any toys in [KTK] that look like fun? Herald of Anafenza probably got more attention, but I personally like the look of Abzan Falconer -- if only for its passive ability -- which pairs nicely with Champion of the Parish, Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster or Heroic (if you go that route). I can't complain about the cheap Outlast, either. There's also High Sentinels of Arashin, which is protected from Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay and is a good mana sink (how often does that come up in WW?), but I can't see running this over other more powerful spells that high on the curve.
Herald of Anafenza is probably too slow for most soldier builds. I can't imagine spending 3 per turn to generate a token when I can cast something else. Its Outlast-related ability generates Warrior tokens, not soldier tokens, which hurts the deck's soldier theme.
Abzan Falconer sounds way more useful. Do soldier builds have any other 3-mana soldiers that would prevent Abzan Falconer's use? (Preeminent Captain or Field Marshal?)
I put two anafenza in the soldier deck I've been playing a bit with. Don't remember what I took out for her but she hasn't been terrible. the WW is annoying since banneret doesn't reduce it but I think thats okay overall.
I just noticed someone posted veteran swordsmith and I might replace this for Paragon of new dawns. What are people's thoughts? is the one extra mana worth the toughness increase? I was playing paragon since it was the only other soldier anthem in modern that I knew about.
If you want just a toughness increase, veteran armorer (or veteran armorsmith) seems better and costs less, but veteran swordsmith seems better overall for the power boost synergizing with the inherent first strike many soldiers have.
With pre-eminent captain putting him on the battlefiedl, he was never declared as an attacker, therefore nothing happens to trigger him. On his own, he's still darned good and well worth running. there are other soldiers to also consider running, too. I like the reknown equipment searcher myself. He's pretty solid.
A cmc 2 that if he connects becomes a 3/3 and card advantage that breaks board stalls? He's not super impressive, but he comes down soon and isn't bad. I imagine I wouldn't even bother playing him with preeminent captain, as I don't like that he's putting in things that cost less than he does. I do admit the surprise factor is awfully nice, though.
Probably a solid inclusion for the deck. I think I have one copy of Fencing Ace in my magic online soldiers deck that I might swap out with this guy when he is released.
I wanted to add Elspeth Tirel and Veteran's Armaments as well but the first would require more lands which would slow down the deck and the second might still make the cut when I decide what to take out for it.
With pre-eminent captain putting him on the battlefiedl, he was never declared as an attacker, therefore nothing happens to trigger him. On his own, he's still darned good and well worth running. there are other soldiers to also consider running, too. I like the reknown equipment searcher myself. He's pretty solid.
I believe that because it doesn't check at the declare attackers step (like with battalion), but at the end of combat step that he would still trigger if he is the 3rd attacker even coming off captain since it checks back at who and how many attackers there are. But I could be wrong.
On a side note I haven't posted here since January 2014 and it is still going. Nice job Nabbydian.
Well, welcome back to the soldiers thread. On your question, I went ahead and looked up in the comprehensive rules. Since it's an intervening if clause and it asks if kytheon attacked, rather than dealt damage, it wouldn't trigger. Creatures put into play attacking were never declared as attackers, therefore any abilities they had that would have triggered if they had attacked won't trigger (battalion being a good example. Another example of this is Alesha, who smiles at death, or the nephilim that does similar). If you want to know where it is at, comprehensive rules 508.4
That is correct. Just seems weird that at the same time it can't be effected by gideons ability but can still be hit by a maze of ith, condemn, etc because it is considered an attacking creature still. Rules and interactions are odd. Thank you for pointing out the rule. Alesha, Odric, preeminent captain are worded differently in that they need to be declared as attackers to trigger as it happens as you are declaring attackers and kytheon is worded in a way where it seems like he looks back to see what happened. Which is where I got a bit confused in the first place.
Now that is all cleared up. I have been thinking about picking this deck up again for the fun of it. I always enjoyed playing it. But I haven't really changed my list. Have I missed any actually good soldiers, I've been looking as this deck has always been a guilty pleasure? I could see kytheon to lower the curve but his flipped side doesn't seem good enough for the fact that he is pretty fragile as is. I just really want a new catapult squad or a reprint will do.
Well, dryad militant is a really good one, actually, though I don't know how long ago that came out. I really do think kytheon is pretty good, particularly since if you have mana open he can become removal proof pretty easily. Admittedly, he's not the greatest otherwise, but I've seen worse. I don't think we'll get catapult squad anytime soon, but I have to admit I really like court street denizen for the really aggressively minded soldier decks.
Well, dryad militant is a really good one, actually, though I don't know how long ago that came out. I really do think kytheon is pretty good, particularly since if you have mana open he can become removal proof pretty easily. Admittedly, he's not the greatest otherwise, but I've seen worse. I don't think we'll get catapult squad anytime soon, but I have to admit I really like court street denizen for the really aggressively minded soldier decks.
I can somewhat get behind denizen, my only issue is the fact that as a 3 drop we either have to slow our aggro plan in order to get value off him or we are just running slower because we need to continuously draw threats to get value off him. I suppose mobilization could mean 2W tap target possible blocking creature. Captain of the watch coming in off preeminent captain seems like a lot of value there. Again on that note, we have significantly slowed our game plan in order to achieve this.
I love dryad militant for the deck as it is great at "blanking" snapcaster mage, flashback, storm, etc and is built for aggression as a 2/1 for G/W.
I was thinking about kytheon and I was semi unimpressed when I initially thought about him. On the flip side my list is mostly human soldiers so I have champion of the parish. Him being a human soldier means he still pumps champion while getting lord buffs. I have 2 odric that I was running and I am thinking that with kytheon, it would likely be worthwhile to drop odric and run him as a 2 of. I still don't want to draw too many and I have always had fun with my captain of the watch so I refuse to remove them as of now. I will have to pick up the deck and go back to testing to decide for sure. Kytheon could certainly be good when flipped. 4/4 pre-lord buffs, his +2 can also provide "the abyss" effect if the board is on a stale mate and we need to force our opponents to start feeding their creatures into our first striking weenies. Could be a decent way to take control over the board.
I have been running x4 brave the elements. I am wondering if God's willing might be better since it also scrys to help smooth our draws and most of modern is spot removal, or wrath effects. Maybe I am crazy.
I wanted to add Elspeth Tirel and Court Street Denizen as well but the first would require more lands which would slow down the deck and the second might still make the cut when I decide what to take out for it.
I also consider Veteran's Armaments for the deck but I'm not sure it will be any good in it.
Noticeable Issues
1. You are dead vs combo without any form of tax or discard. Your deck just simply isn't fast enough. Needs thalia, guardian of thraben to do some taxing or just simply be faster. Path can help vs creature decks but you are running a lot of non creature spells and if you draw running path+brave and then pride, etc you are just stalling out and losing that game. I would suggest that you drop path in favor of more creatures, or at the very least Aether vial to help free up mana you can spend on spells.
2. I am not a huge fan of obelisk. I suppose if you had something like intangible virtue/mobilization for vigilance so that you could swing and after combat be able to convoke it, then that would be cool. I would be happier if it had flash so you could declare attackers, then flash it in before damage to really punish an opponent that wants to block. Otherwise you have to take a whole turn and not attack with several creatures in order to get any type of value off it. This again means that you have slowed down and are likely dead against combo and you will likely never race a supreme verdict/damnation/wrath of god/languish, etc.
3. Forbidding watchtower. Yes, a large back side for blocking. Not really what you want in a deck that needs to be aggressive. On that note, the land also comes into play tapped. This can be an issue when it is land #2/3 etc. You just hiccuped in your curve and that can mean a lot of bad for you. Mutavault is really the only man land that we would want to have. Personally I don't like it because it taps for colorless. Which can be an issue with cards like precinct captain, field marshall, cards with WW in their cost. This is why my only non W producing lands I will play are fetchlands for thinning and cavern of souls which tap for W for all my soldiers at the very least.
4. Your curve is another issue that I am having issues with.
1 CMC - 8----0 creatures
2 CMC - ~17--9 creatures
3 CMC - 11---11 creatures
4 CMC - 3----2 creatures
6 CMC - 1
So my issue lies in the fact that turn 1 you might path something? But you haven't done anything towards advancing your board. Turn 2 you may drop 1 guy? Turn 3 attack and you may drop 1 guy, maybe 2? Turn 4 you just finally attacked with 3 guys and that is only if you didn't get hit by spot removal because you couldn't hold brave the elements up, or you attacked with 2 guys because you had to hold up brave to protect them. It just doesn't seems like a very solid game plan to me.
A few pointers. BW tokens has game against combo because they run hand disruption and on things like tidehollow sculler which can attack or thoughtseize which can take any card. If you can't disrupt, you have to kill. You need more things that are lower on the curve. I get that you have 2 banneret which can help, but you really should be running 4 most likely because of how high your curve is. He also lowers the cost of militia's pride to 1 (since it is a kithkin spell) which can mean casting that pre combat and getting tokens then same turn you cast it.
The honors should likely either be intangible virtues since you do have a decent amount of token production or Aether vial to help free your mana up a bit. Virtues can also open up lines for you to get a quick attack in and then drop obelisk to pump for future turns. Another option is more militia's pride. Since they trigger for each non token creature. It means dead top deck lands can become mana spent into each trigger from an actual creature that you control. It just gives you more value overall.
I can tell you like the watch tower for land, but if you want a land that comes into play tapped, you should run the windbrisk heights. You could possibly find room for Elspeth Tirel if you did that since you may not need the land to cast it, and triggering the heights should never be an issue for you.
Another suggestion is that preeminent captain does not seem correct for your deck. It doesn't help trigger attacking abilites, militia's pride, etc., you aren't trying to cheat in value like captain of the watch. You are better off with something like champion of the parish it is a 1 drop and most of your actual creatures are human so they will pump him after he comes down turn 1. If not him then just something as a 1 drop, even a soldier of the pantheon. He at least can't be hit by abrupt decay, kolaghan's command, lightning helix or electrolyze etc.
I am going to stop here for now. But I hope everything I laid out makes sense and can help you with building your deck.
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Precinct Captain can be helpful, I think he is best in decks which run anthems or are in Boros colors. With Captain we really want to be attacking with him all the time to generate tokens or at least kill opposing creatures, but as a 2/2 he can be very underwhelming from an aggressive viewpoint. We need to either booster his P/T with anthems or clear the path for him to attack. Also the anthem works well for the soldier tokens too. In theory, a 2nd turn Precinct Captain into a 3rd turn Brimaz, plus anthem spells does seems like a very attractive attacking proposition.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 Ballyrush banneret
4 precinct captain
4 veteran armorsmith
3 veteran swordsmith
4 mentor of the meek
4 preeminent captain
2 captain of the watch
1 Odric, master tactician
1 benalish commander
4 silence
4 brave the elements
2 unmake
2 emeria, the sky ruin
18 plains
Sideboard:
Any advice on improvements?
This deck does not look like it could win at a competitive level. You might be winning at your local FNM with this deck, but it probably would not stand up in a larger, tighter tournament.
Path to Exile is the best 1-mana creature exile available and should take the place of Unmake. The card is also almost always a 4-of. Mentor of the Meek is going to lose its effectiveness the moment your soldiers get buffed past 2 power, so a 4-of of those is not that great.
You never want to sideboard basic land. In addition, your land count is low (at 20) for the number of 4 or more mana cards you have.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is very good and hoses a number of deck however seeing that he is playing 10 spells in 4x Silence, 4x Brave the elements and 2x Unmake, Thalia might just hurt him as much or more than the opponent.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Since this thread hasn't really seen any activity in a while, anyone see any toys in [KTK] that look like fun? Herald of Anafenza probably got more attention, but I personally like the look of Abzan Falconer -- if only for its passive ability -- which pairs nicely with Champion of the Parish, Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster or Heroic (if you go that route). I can't complain about the cheap Outlast, either. There's also High Sentinels of Arashin, which is protected from Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay and is a good mana sink (how often does that come up in WW?), but I can't see running this over other more powerful spells that high on the curve.
Herald of Anafenza is probably too slow for most soldier builds. I can't imagine spending 3 per turn to generate a token when I can cast something else. Its Outlast-related ability generates Warrior tokens, not soldier tokens, which hurts the deck's soldier theme.
Abzan Falconer sounds way more useful. Do soldier builds have any other 3-mana soldiers that would prevent Abzan Falconer's use? (Preeminent Captain or Field Marshal?)
1 Elspeth, knight's errant
Creatures (27)
1 Odric, master tactician
1 Benalish commander
4 champion of the parish
4 precinct captain
4 Ballyrush Banneret
3 veteran armorsmith
2 preeminent captain
2 Gideon's lawkeeper
2 mentor of the meek
2 veteran swordsmith
2 captain of the watch
2 Thalia, guardian of Thraben
4 Brave the elements
4 path to exile
2 silence
Land (22)
18 plains
2 emeria, the sky ruin
2 ghost quarter
2 Mistveil plains
4 Rest in peace
2 dryad militant
1 Thalia, guardian of thraben
2 silence
3 erase
1 veteran armorsmith
2 leyline of sanctity
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Field Marshal
4 Paragon of New Dawns
2 Captain of the Watch
4 Brave the Elements
20 Plains
I just noticed someone posted veteran swordsmith and I might replace this for Paragon of new dawns. What are people's thoughts? is the one extra mana worth the toughness increase? I was playing paragon since it was the only other soldier anthem in modern that I knew about.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Here is a build that came up with:
3x Ballyrush Banneret
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Consul's Lieutenant
1x Court Street Denizen
2x Crusader of Odric
4x Field Marshal
1x Odric, Master Tactician
4x Precinct Captain
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Obelisk of Urd
Instant (10)
4x Brave the Elements
4x Path to Exile
2x Raise the Alarm
Enchantment (6)
3x Honor of the Pure
1x Intangible Virtue
2x Militia's Pride
2x Forbidding Watchtower
18x Plains
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Can it Work ?
I wanted to add Elspeth Tirel and Veteran's Armaments as well but the first would require more lands which would slow down the deck and the second might still make the cut when I decide what to take out for it.
2x Crusader of Odric, +2x Veteran Swordsmith
-1x Militia's Pride, -1x Ballyrush Banneret,
+2x Raise the Alarm
-1x Intangible Virtue, -1x Consul's Lieutenant, -1x Court Street Denizen
+3x Preeminent Captain
Will it improve the deck ?
I believe that because it doesn't check at the declare attackers step (like with battalion), but at the end of combat step that he would still trigger if he is the 3rd attacker even coming off captain since it checks back at who and how many attackers there are. But I could be wrong.
On a side note I haven't posted here since January 2014 and it is still going. Nice job Nabbydian.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Now that is all cleared up. I have been thinking about picking this deck up again for the fun of it. I always enjoyed playing it. But I haven't really changed my list. Have I missed any actually good soldiers, I've been looking as this deck has always been a guilty pleasure? I could see kytheon to lower the curve but his flipped side doesn't seem good enough for the fact that he is pretty fragile as is. I just really want a new catapult squad or a reprint will do.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I love dryad militant for the deck as it is great at "blanking" snapcaster mage, flashback, storm, etc and is built for aggression as a 2/1 for G/W.
I was thinking about kytheon and I was semi unimpressed when I initially thought about him. On the flip side my list is mostly human soldiers so I have champion of the parish. Him being a human soldier means he still pumps champion while getting lord buffs. I have 2 odric that I was running and I am thinking that with kytheon, it would likely be worthwhile to drop odric and run him as a 2 of. I still don't want to draw too many and I have always had fun with my captain of the watch so I refuse to remove them as of now. I will have to pick up the deck and go back to testing to decide for sure. Kytheon could certainly be good when flipped. 4/4 pre-lord buffs, his +2 can also provide "the abyss" effect if the board is on a stale mate and we need to force our opponents to start feeding their creatures into our first striking weenies. Could be a decent way to take control over the board.
I have been running x4 brave the elements. I am wondering if God's willing might be better since it also scrys to help smooth our draws and most of modern is spot removal, or wrath effects. Maybe I am crazy.
1. You are dead vs combo without any form of tax or discard. Your deck just simply isn't fast enough. Needs thalia, guardian of thraben to do some taxing or just simply be faster. Path can help vs creature decks but you are running a lot of non creature spells and if you draw running path+brave and then pride, etc you are just stalling out and losing that game. I would suggest that you drop path in favor of more creatures, or at the very least Aether vial to help free up mana you can spend on spells.
2. I am not a huge fan of obelisk. I suppose if you had something like intangible virtue/mobilization for vigilance so that you could swing and after combat be able to convoke it, then that would be cool. I would be happier if it had flash so you could declare attackers, then flash it in before damage to really punish an opponent that wants to block. Otherwise you have to take a whole turn and not attack with several creatures in order to get any type of value off it. This again means that you have slowed down and are likely dead against combo and you will likely never race a supreme verdict/damnation/wrath of god/languish, etc.
3. Forbidding watchtower. Yes, a large back side for blocking. Not really what you want in a deck that needs to be aggressive. On that note, the land also comes into play tapped. This can be an issue when it is land #2/3 etc. You just hiccuped in your curve and that can mean a lot of bad for you. Mutavault is really the only man land that we would want to have. Personally I don't like it because it taps for colorless. Which can be an issue with cards like precinct captain, field marshall, cards with WW in their cost. This is why my only non W producing lands I will play are fetchlands for thinning and cavern of souls which tap for W for all my soldiers at the very least.
4. Your curve is another issue that I am having issues with.
1 CMC - 8----0 creatures
2 CMC - ~17--9 creatures
3 CMC - 11---11 creatures
4 CMC - 3----2 creatures
6 CMC - 1
So my issue lies in the fact that turn 1 you might path something? But you haven't done anything towards advancing your board. Turn 2 you may drop 1 guy? Turn 3 attack and you may drop 1 guy, maybe 2? Turn 4 you just finally attacked with 3 guys and that is only if you didn't get hit by spot removal because you couldn't hold brave the elements up, or you attacked with 2 guys because you had to hold up brave to protect them. It just doesn't seems like a very solid game plan to me.
A few pointers. BW tokens has game against combo because they run hand disruption and on things like tidehollow sculler which can attack or thoughtseize which can take any card. If you can't disrupt, you have to kill. You need more things that are lower on the curve. I get that you have 2 banneret which can help, but you really should be running 4 most likely because of how high your curve is. He also lowers the cost of militia's pride to 1 (since it is a kithkin spell) which can mean casting that pre combat and getting tokens then same turn you cast it.
The honors should likely either be intangible virtues since you do have a decent amount of token production or Aether vial to help free your mana up a bit. Virtues can also open up lines for you to get a quick attack in and then drop obelisk to pump for future turns. Another option is more militia's pride. Since they trigger for each non token creature. It means dead top deck lands can become mana spent into each trigger from an actual creature that you control. It just gives you more value overall.
I can tell you like the watch tower for land, but if you want a land that comes into play tapped, you should run the windbrisk heights. You could possibly find room for Elspeth Tirel if you did that since you may not need the land to cast it, and triggering the heights should never be an issue for you.
Another suggestion is that preeminent captain does not seem correct for your deck. It doesn't help trigger attacking abilites, militia's pride, etc., you aren't trying to cheat in value like captain of the watch. You are better off with something like champion of the parish it is a 1 drop and most of your actual creatures are human so they will pump him after he comes down turn 1. If not him then just something as a 1 drop, even a soldier of the pantheon. He at least can't be hit by abrupt decay, kolaghan's command, lightning helix or electrolyze etc.
I am going to stop here for now. But I hope everything I laid out makes sense and can help you with building your deck.