I'm not worried about it killing Norin, I'm worried about it killing all the win conditions/me. Removal isn't a problem on it's own - it's a problem when backed up by counters, because it will prevent us from winning the game.
Likewise, repeatable removal is a problem if the other deck can get consistent pressure or fliers, because then even if we do have a genesis chamber, we aren't going to win the race.
The more I fool with the deck the more I see that it really wants to have a better game plan in a lot of matchups. Pandemonium & genesis chamber + mass removal is where I'm leaning for anything that isn't aggro. Living End is a beating, though. I really have no clue what to do against them. Even if I started with a leyline of the void, it takes so long to get pressure going that they are going to be able to find a Beast Within, then cycle some guys and kill me. Maybe Cranial Extraction? Rule of Law?
Grand Abolisher is definitely a good card to bear in mind to bait counters.
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I think the LD package may be going a bit too far or not far enough - against more aggro decks, it would probably want Essence Warden, and a bunch of spot removal. I think it isn't powerful enough to really be good with that list, but maybe there are suggestions for ways to juice it up.
It also made me realize that Pandemonium is definitely something to go with. I'm thinking of changing my main list around to lean more heavily on mass removal + pandemonium / chamber.
Does a scrying sheets engine make sense to anyone? I was thinking something like this:
Anyway, would love to hear thoughts on this. If sheets doesn't work, I'd probably just swap the Skreds for Magma Jets and the Coldsteel Hearts for 2 more lands and 2 Soul's Attendants. For a sideboard, I'd probably go with Grand Abolisher, Silence, maybe Proclamation of Rebirth or Ethersworn Canonist and Soul Warden or Lightning Helix (I find that the life gain guys are at best a way to buy a little time to set things up). I wish there were more good scry cards.
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Won my only match in the 1v1 queue last night, against mono-white something. Hopefully I'll get some more testing time in soon. Skred + Path is a lot of cheap removal.
I'll also say that Pandemonium is not as bad as you'd think against aggro - you do need life gain to be able to stabilize before you drop it, but you don't really want one in play until you've got a Norin or Ignus to abuse it with, and by then the other deck is just not going to outpace you on creatures coming into play.
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I destroyed this deck on mtgo today with CawBlade Teachings. It seems so slow/clunky, I don't understand how those win percentages in the initial post are close to accurate.
Yeah, my draws weren't that good in that matchup, but I do think that control decks are a bad matchup - it's difficult to get enough pressure to really seem threatening, and any time one of the win conditions is answered slows the deck down for a long time.
The scrying sheets engine is way too slow to make a difference here, so I think maybe it's just in the way. It seems like this deck has a certain amount of inevitability, but the funny thing is that most control decks also have pretty strong clocks in Modern, so you don't actually get the luxury of just setting up until pressure from Norin + whatever win cons you draw eventually kills.
I wonder if adding blue instead of some of the pressure elements would be better.
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Here's some matchup notes from games I've played recently, though not all of them were with this precise build:
Zoo (w/Tribal Flames)
Ghostly Prison is great at delaying all aggro decks, but the key to this matchup is really Soul Warden. The problem here was that this deck was packing a lot more burn than most Zoo - that made it easier to gain control of the board, but pretty much impossible to keep a life-gainer on the table, or to get a big threat going.
The sideboard plan here is to bring in Firespout, Soul's Attendant, and the last Ghostly Prison, in exchange for the Grand Abolishers and a Pandemonium. It's an ok plan, and the deck does have strong ability to take control, but is still slow enough that the opponent can basically sit back, keep you from gaining life, and eventually drop his hand to burn you out. Martyr of Sands and Ranger of Eos might be cards to consider to shore up this matchup, but I think against a less burn-heavy Zoo the deck is in good shape, so I'm just not sure how much I want to dedicate to fighting burn.
Splinter Twin
This deck has a lot of outs against Twin - Soul Warden and Ghostly Prison both shut them down, though in one game I made the mistake of trying to force a win with Pandemonium despite having a Ghostly Prison up, thus leaving myself vulnerable again.
Sideboard plan is to bring in Ghostly Prison and Soul's Attendant for the Pandemoniums and a ***, though it might be good to have O-Rings in place of the other two ***. This matchup is strong, so I wouldn't stress much about it, but definitely want those two extra Soul Warden effects available.
Caw-Blade
This matchup was horrible, though admittedly, it was with a previous version of the deck that was jankier. Elspeth is in now to give me some extra oomph in a control matchup, but the biggest problem is that even if I can force down a win condition past counter magic, the win cons are slow enough the they can frequently be removed. The O-Rings in the board are there to fight opposing O-Rings and other potential problems like planeswalkers, but this deck really needs some difficult to deal with threats to be solid in the control matchup. If anyone has ideas here, I'd love to hear them.
We've potentially got room for bringing in 10 cards (taking out Prison, ***, and Warden) - right now only Proclamation, Pandemonium, and O-Ring really make sense out of the board, though, and they don't do a ton. Anyway, this needs work.
Other Stuff Ethersworn Canonists are in the board to fight Living End and Storm decks, which I think is an important role, so I'm inclined to leave them there. Pandemonium has been pretty great at controlling the board and finishing games, and it is good to have it so that the deck isn't forced to win through combat, but it is also a liability or just a two-edged sword in a lot of matchups. I'm starting to wonder if I should test Electropotence.
Grand Abolisher is also something I'm on the fence about. It is a great card for forcing down a win condition, but often by the time I can afford to cast both it and, say, Pandemonium, a permission-heavy opponent could afford to cast two counters, so I'm not sure how powerful it is. It does give me outs, is never dead, and plays ball with Champion of the Parish and Mentor of the Meek, though, so maybe it's fine.
Overall, I think the deck is on the cusp of respectability - it can definitely compete with some of the top decks, but it really needs to find that perfect card or two to reach Tier 2 or 1.5
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Hmm, that's interesting... confusion is certainly powerful against creature decks, if you can survive to cast it.
It's an 6-8 card peice that can be put into an existing shell or revamped. Confusion does cost alot so 2-3 is ok. If anything cream of the crop is great for CA.
Red can provide burn to stall and green maybe ramp or fog effects, I was thinking splash white for wrath effects (Naya Manabase) or go Jund manabase for more flexibility and its own wraths.
Yeah, it's a powerful effect in that instance, but without a Norin in play it's pretty useless. Still, it does help keep you drawing gas, even if it doesn't provide any actual card advantage. Now I'm wondering if an Idyllic Tutor package might be a good idea in a 3-color shell, to give access to Glare of Subdual, Ghostly Prison, Pandemonium, Cream of the Crop, Confusion in the Ranks, Oblivion Ring, but not take up too much room with dead cards.
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URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
cream of the crop does not actually draw you cards guys.
Just worth mentioning.
It is also almost scry but not really as you cannot put all the cards on the bottom of your library. The effect is also redundant when your tokens come into play.
I do not think it worth splashing for.
How has the pandemonium worked for you guys. I'm kinda scared of taking 5 to the dome from a knight
Pandemonium is only good once you've stabilized. My latest attempt uses Idyllic tutor to cut down to 1 pandemonium, 1 leyline of sanctity (with more in the board), 2 Ghostly Prison, and 1 Oblivion Ring maindeck, with some bullet enchantments in the side (plus one Journey to Nowhere in place of a Path to Exile). That actually works pretty well, though I guess leyline doesn't actually prevent you from taking damage from pandemonium, it at least shuts down the ability to be suddenly burned out.
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It shuts down zoo and twin which are top tier decks that are going to see huge amounts of play.
Pandemonium seems risky. You could easily either have it your hand and not wanting to play it against zoo / twin (making it a dead draw) or play it and lose to your own enchantment. It is also to a great degree counter intuitive to Ghostly prison because it lets your opponent deal damage to you with creature's but without attacking. In essence negating the effect of the prison.
Yeah, I was toying a bit with Ensnaring Bridge, but I think it isn't going to work as well as I'd like, so I'll probably look for something to replace it. The deck is pretty strong, though, with a lot of answers to the field. Prison+Soul Warden for Twin, Leyline just stop tons of things, and Rule of Law can stall Living End, Eggs, and Storm-based combo.
My biggest wants are: an enchantment that can help in the places where Bridge is good (basically, stopping a sword-bearer from punching through), a way to bring an enchantment back from the grave easily, and a way to tutor up a win condition that doesn't die to removal. Also, the deck doesn't really have a good answer to cranial plating, but maybe that's not the end of the world.
Anyway, there's definitely space for some extra tech, I just don't know what that tech is. One card I'm considering is Survival Cache, or perhaps Kitchen Finks or Wall of Omens. All of them buy time to stabilize, which then lets me grind out a win with Norin + something.
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Is Mesa really better than Mobilization? I guess they do fly, at least.
Open the vaults is probably too expensive - it's just a dead draw in most games.
Likewise, all of the reactive answers to plating that you list are slow and narrow, though perhaps I could fit some into the bridge slots in the board if affinity becomes popular enough. I can tutor up O-Rings (and board in extras, if I want), but that's also pretty slow. Ideally, I'd like something that works against more decks, and is fast. Maybe pithing needle is what I'm looking for - is there an enchantment version of that?
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creature version yes, enchantment version...not that I know of. The creature version is voidstone gargoyle not to be confused with phyrexian revoker, which do slightly different things.
In my personal opinion, there is nothing better than sacred mesa for what it does. flying>>>vigilance any day of the week.
yes, any tutorable answer *will* be slow. If you want faster answers that are less general, you could consider shattering spree or maybe crush. However, they are pretty limited in what they do, while being very good at it at the same time.
Why are you wanting a way to bring back enchantments, anyways? If you're needing to, then the ability to bring them back (all back) is a late game want anyways, which open the vaults would be. You wouldn't want more than two, at any rate.
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You can consider Grand Abolisher in the side if you are having problems with control.
Removal not so much. Norin gets removed from the game whenever someone plays a spell so I do not think targeted removal is going to get it.
I have been very happy with wraths 3 main two in the side
Again how? It cannot kill Norin
Insert witty phrase here
Likewise, repeatable removal is a problem if the other deck can get consistent pressure or fliers, because then even if we do have a genesis chamber, we aren't going to win the race.
The more I fool with the deck the more I see that it really wants to have a better game plan in a lot of matchups. Pandemonium & genesis chamber + mass removal is where I'm leaning for anything that isn't aggro. Living End is a beating, though. I really have no clue what to do against them. Even if I started with a leyline of the void, it takes so long to get pressure going that they are going to be able to find a Beast Within, then cycle some guys and kill me. Maybe Cranial Extraction? Rule of Law?
Grand Abolisher is definitely a good card to bear in mind to bait counters.
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4 Norin the Wary
4 Pandemonium
4 Genesis Chamber
//Accel
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
//LD
4 Stone Rain
4 Molten Rain
4 Plow Under
4 Firespout
2 Eternal Witness
//Land (22)
2 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mountain
4 Forest
4 Stomping Grounds
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Buried Ruin
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Kher Keep
I think the LD package may be going a bit too far or not far enough - against more aggro decks, it would probably want Essence Warden, and a bunch of spot removal. I think it isn't powerful enough to really be good with that list, but maybe there are suggestions for ways to juice it up.
It also made me realize that Pandemonium is definitely something to go with. I'm thinking of changing my main list around to lean more heavily on mass removal + pandemonium / chamber.
Does a scrying sheets engine make sense to anyone? I was thinking something like this:
4 Pandemonium
4 Genesis Chamber
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Firespout
4 Skred
4 Path to Exile
4 Coldsteel Heart
2 Buried Ruin
4 Arid Mesa
2 Mouth of Ronom
4 Snow-covered Mountain
6 Snow-covered Plains
Anyway, would love to hear thoughts on this. If sheets doesn't work, I'd probably just swap the Skreds for Magma Jets and the Coldsteel Hearts for 2 more lands and 2 Soul's Attendants. For a sideboard, I'd probably go with Grand Abolisher, Silence, maybe Proclamation of Rebirth or Ethersworn Canonist and Soul Warden or Lightning Helix (I find that the life gain guys are at best a way to buy a little time to set things up). I wish there were more good scry cards.
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4 Genesis Chamber
2 Pandemonium
2 Grinning Ignus
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Soul Warden
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Skred
4 Path to Exile
3 Coldsteel Heart
2 Scrying Sheets
2 Buried Ruin
2 Mouth of Ronom
8 Snow-covered Mountain
8 Snow-covered Plains
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grand Abolisher
4 Firespout
2 Pandemonium
2 Phyrexian Soulgorger
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Wrath of God
Won my only match in the 1v1 queue last night, against mono-white something. Hopefully I'll get some more testing time in soon. Skred + Path is a lot of cheap removal.
I'll also say that Pandemonium is not as bad as you'd think against aggro - you do need life gain to be able to stabilize before you drop it, but you don't really want one in play until you've got a Norin or Ignus to abuse it with, and by then the other deck is just not going to outpace you on creatures coming into play.
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UWBG Gifts in Modern
UWBG Control in Standard
UBG Control in Legacy
The scrying sheets engine is way too slow to make a difference here, so I think maybe it's just in the way. It seems like this deck has a certain amount of inevitability, but the funny thing is that most control decks also have pretty strong clocks in Modern, so you don't actually get the luxury of just setting up until pressure from Norin + whatever win cons you draw eventually kills.
I wonder if adding blue instead of some of the pressure elements would be better.
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4 Norin the Wary
4 Genesis Chamber
2 Pandemonium
Offense
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Grand Abolisher
2 Mentor of the Meek
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Defense
4 Soul Warden
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Wrath of God
4 Path to Exile
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Buried Ruin
4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mountain
10 Plains
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
1 Pandemonium
2 Firespout
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Soul's Attendant
Here's some matchup notes from games I've played recently, though not all of them were with this precise build:
Zoo (w/Tribal Flames)
Ghostly Prison is great at delaying all aggro decks, but the key to this matchup is really Soul Warden. The problem here was that this deck was packing a lot more burn than most Zoo - that made it easier to gain control of the board, but pretty much impossible to keep a life-gainer on the table, or to get a big threat going.
The sideboard plan here is to bring in Firespout, Soul's Attendant, and the last Ghostly Prison, in exchange for the Grand Abolishers and a Pandemonium. It's an ok plan, and the deck does have strong ability to take control, but is still slow enough that the opponent can basically sit back, keep you from gaining life, and eventually drop his hand to burn you out. Martyr of Sands and Ranger of Eos might be cards to consider to shore up this matchup, but I think against a less burn-heavy Zoo the deck is in good shape, so I'm just not sure how much I want to dedicate to fighting burn.
Splinter Twin
This deck has a lot of outs against Twin - Soul Warden and Ghostly Prison both shut them down, though in one game I made the mistake of trying to force a win with Pandemonium despite having a Ghostly Prison up, thus leaving myself vulnerable again.
Sideboard plan is to bring in Ghostly Prison and Soul's Attendant for the Pandemoniums and a ***, though it might be good to have O-Rings in place of the other two ***. This matchup is strong, so I wouldn't stress much about it, but definitely want those two extra Soul Warden effects available.
Caw-Blade
This matchup was horrible, though admittedly, it was with a previous version of the deck that was jankier. Elspeth is in now to give me some extra oomph in a control matchup, but the biggest problem is that even if I can force down a win condition past counter magic, the win cons are slow enough the they can frequently be removed. The O-Rings in the board are there to fight opposing O-Rings and other potential problems like planeswalkers, but this deck really needs some difficult to deal with threats to be solid in the control matchup. If anyone has ideas here, I'd love to hear them.
We've potentially got room for bringing in 10 cards (taking out Prison, ***, and Warden) - right now only Proclamation, Pandemonium, and O-Ring really make sense out of the board, though, and they don't do a ton. Anyway, this needs work.
Other Stuff
Ethersworn Canonists are in the board to fight Living End and Storm decks, which I think is an important role, so I'm inclined to leave them there. Pandemonium has been pretty great at controlling the board and finishing games, and it is good to have it so that the deck isn't forced to win through combat, but it is also a liability or just a two-edged sword in a lot of matchups. I'm starting to wonder if I should test Electropotence.
Grand Abolisher is also something I'm on the fence about. It is a great card for forcing down a win condition, but often by the time I can afford to cast both it and, say, Pandemonium, a permission-heavy opponent could afford to cast two counters, so I'm not sure how powerful it is. It does give me outs, is never dead, and plays ball with Champion of the Parish and Mentor of the Meek, though, so maybe it's fine.
Overall, I think the deck is on the cusp of respectability - it can definitely compete with some of the top decks, but it really needs to find that perfect card or two to reach Tier 2 or 1.5
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:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
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It's an 6-8 card peice that can be put into an existing shell or revamped. Confusion does cost alot so 2-3 is ok. If anything cream of the crop is great for CA.
Red can provide burn to stall and green maybe ramp or fog effects, I was thinking splash white for wrath effects (Naya Manabase) or go Jund manabase for more flexibility and its own wraths.
something with:
4 ranger of eos
3 champion of the parish
3 soul warden
4 genesis chamber
3 path to exile
4 pandemonium
4 day of judgement
3 cream of the crop
3 glare of subdual
4 lightning bolt
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
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Living End Contributor and Enthusiast
Come Pucatrade with me
Rules Advisor
Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
My bad. I meant to put Soul's Attendent.
Norin the WaryRW
Legacy
BurnR
Just worth mentioning.
It is also almost scry but not really as you cannot put all the cards on the bottom of your library. The effect is also redundant when your tokens come into play.
I do not think it worth splashing for.
How has the pandemonium worked for you guys. I'm kinda scared of taking 5 to the dome from a knight
Insert witty phrase here
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It shuts down zoo and twin which are top tier decks that are going to see huge amounts of play.
Pandemonium seems risky. You could easily either have it your hand and not wanting to play it against zoo / twin (making it a dead draw) or play it and lose to your own enchantment. It is also to a great degree counter intuitive to Ghostly prison because it lets your opponent deal damage to you with creature's but without attacking. In essence negating the effect of the prison.
Insert witty phrase here
Here's where I'm at right now:
4 Norin the Wary
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Genesis Chamber
Enchantment Package
3 Idyllic Tutor
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Journey to Nowhere
Other
4 Soul Warden
3 Path to Exile
2 Ranger of Eos
3 Wrath of God
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
2 Buried Ruin
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Arid Mesa
12 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Mountain
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
2 Soul's Attendant
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mobilization
1 Rule of Law
1 Pandemonium
1 Ranger of Eos
My biggest wants are: an enchantment that can help in the places where Bridge is good (basically, stopping a sword-bearer from punching through), a way to bring an enchantment back from the grave easily, and a way to tutor up a win condition that doesn't die to removal. Also, the deck doesn't really have a good answer to cranial plating, but maybe that's not the end of the world.
Anyway, there's definitely space for some extra tech, I just don't know what that tech is. One card I'm considering is Survival Cache, or perhaps Kitchen Finks or Wall of Omens. All of them buy time to stabilize, which then lets me grind out a win with Norin + something.
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Open the vaults brings back enchantments and artifacts that get nuked.
You're in white and red, and you want answers to cranial plating? Disenchant, shatter, smash to smithereens, the list goes on. Aura of silence is tutorable, of course.
story circle should prevent the shenanigans from critter attacks of colors.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Open the vaults is probably too expensive - it's just a dead draw in most games.
Likewise, all of the reactive answers to plating that you list are slow and narrow, though perhaps I could fit some into the bridge slots in the board if affinity becomes popular enough. I can tutor up O-Rings (and board in extras, if I want), but that's also pretty slow. Ideally, I'd like something that works against more decks, and is fast. Maybe pithing needle is what I'm looking for - is there an enchantment version of that?
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In my personal opinion, there is nothing better than sacred mesa for what it does. flying>>>vigilance any day of the week.
yes, any tutorable answer *will* be slow. If you want faster answers that are less general, you could consider shattering spree or maybe crush. However, they are pretty limited in what they do, while being very good at it at the same time.
Why are you wanting a way to bring back enchantments, anyways? If you're needing to, then the ability to bring them back (all back) is a late game want anyways, which open the vaults would be. You wouldn't want more than two, at any rate.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!