Ok exactly. Read what you just wrote. As soon as you play Gifts you have to put combo pieces in the yard.. then they play Extirpate to which to can't respond and there goes a crucial combo piece.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
That's true, but you can play around it.
If you think your opponent knows he can´t let you have Muddle you can fetch Muddle with Scroll, avoiding the graveyard.
Again, I have not played with Channel, so it may not be possible to do all of that without Song.
Anyway, I don't think Unburial Rites is going to help against Extraction and Extirpate. Maybe another non-graveyard dependent combo, like Twin.
Or you could use Clique/hand disruption, I guess.
So the opponent has an Extirpate in hand, you play Gifts for [Channel, Vengeance, Seism, and PIF] the opponent puts PIF and Channel in the yard, then Extirpates PIF. Now you can't complete the combo and never get a chance to Scroll or Muddle for anything. You gotta remember if any combo piece gets exiled you lose. Not just Grapeshot.
I agree that Rites isn't a great backup plan, but it only takes up 2 slots and if your PIF, or any of the other storm combo pieces get exiled you can still do something. Really though, i agree it's not that great, and so far i am sticking with my RUg version.. My strategy there against extraction is just siding in 2 Batterskull as a back up plan if anything essential gets exiled.
I guess running Discard could be a fair way of getting rid of Extirpates but that would entail a dramatic shift in the deck. Trying to consistently hit 4 colors so you can play Discard doesn't really seem worth it. Siding in 2 Cliques and hoping to draw and resolve it at the perfect time just seems kind of unrealistic.
With your list if Channel is Extirpated, there is no way to win.
I didn´t even consider it because I used to run 2 Songs. In fact, I used to run a little more rituals than you do, because it helped to find at least one before you Gifted the first time. Because of that I only worried about the Extirpate on wincon or multiple Extirpates.
It also helped that you could find multiple Rituals and win without using Past in Flames
The only thing I could see for your list, would be hand disruption or Clique, like I said.
It doesn't matter if your using Song or Channel/ Seism, or if you have Rituals in hand or not.
You Gifts End of Turn for [Song, Vengeance, Morphose, PIF] -they Extirpate PIF.
Let's say PIF is already in your hand, Then they Extirpate Seething Song. Or Vengeance. or even Gifts. No matter what's in your hand, your opponent has a chance to Extirpate after you cast Gifts and then you can't finish the combo. No matter if your playing the old or the new version.
And i would love to see a game where you stormed them out without PIF. You would need the most insane fully stacked 7 card hand. [2x Seething Song, 4x Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance]. Then off Morphose draw into Grapeshot, and Remand, as well as 2 other playable spells... . .
You can even win without Past, if you have enough rituals. It's harder and takes a little longer to assemble the cards, but it's possible.
When Song was legal you could even play Song, Fork it, and use the mana from the copied Song to flashback Vengeance, getting to 15 mana without using Past. I guess you can still do it with 7 starting mana (one extra for Channel and other for a red source).
With the help of Bolt it's possible to kill from only 4-5 rituals and Grapeshot-Remand-Grapeshot (with help from opposing shocklands).
It's a lot harder, but I believe you can win with only one of the pieces Extracted.
But then again, I mentioned already other ways to beat Extirpate. Hand disruption can be tricky because of the extra color, but eot Clique seems fine.
You would need to be drawing hot fire in order to win without Past in Flames. Or be playing a maniac that has been playing Fetches and Shocks like an idiot.
What's 15 mana gonna do for you if you only have 2 Storm.. In order or reach a lethal Storm count without PiF, you would need so many things to be going your way.. I really don't see it happening.
Drawing 1 of 2 sideboard Cliques at the perfect time, removing your opponents Extirpate(assuming they only have 1) then giving them another turn(2 draws if you count Cliques cycle) so you can play Gifts(unless you have 7 mana open) seems like it's probably not going to be very successful.
Realistically our options for beating Extirpate comes down to
- Beatdown back up plan
- Alternate Combo back up plan
- Ground Seal lines
- Discard/ Hand Disruption
I already agreed that would be very hard but it's not impossible. You can always concede instead and have a non-graveyard dependent wincon in the sideboard.
You can also have Bolts and some creatures and/or manlands maindeck for an alternative wincon. Maybe even Teferi, which is good against Extirpate. I believe there was a list like that somewhere in the thread.
The same way you would need to draw Clique at perfect time, the opponent would need to draw his hate. It doesn't seem anything out of the extraordinary. You can only sideboard hate/answers in and hope to draw them.
You can always concede instead and have a non-graveyard dependent wincon in the sideboard.
Exactly why i said i'm running 2 Batterskull in the sideboard. Another player mentioned possibly playing a set of Goyf in the board but Goyf is just a vanilla beater with no evasion so i'm not sure he's the right choice. But yeah, a beatdown back-up plan seems like a viable option.
Tefari is great though, and i have been putting off playing him for a while. Maybe it's about time i try him out.
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No actually. I rarely run into Extirpate/ Extraction but when i do it annihilates me. Extirpate more so. It's waaaaay easier to play around Surgical, but split second on Extirpate basically translates to Good Game..
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
If you think your opponent knows he can´t let you have Muddle you can fetch Muddle with Scroll, avoiding the graveyard.
Again, I have not played with Channel, so it may not be possible to do all of that without Song.
Anyway, I don't think Unburial Rites is going to help against Extraction and Extirpate. Maybe another non-graveyard dependent combo, like Twin.
Or you could use Clique/hand disruption, I guess.
.. but also if Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns, Mana Seism, or Increasing Vengeance gets exiled lose, because you can't finish the combo then.
So the opponent has an Extirpate in hand, you play Gifts for [Channel, Vengeance, Seism, and PIF] the opponent puts PIF and Channel in the yard, then Extirpates PIF. Now you can't complete the combo and never get a chance to Scroll or Muddle for anything. You gotta remember if any combo piece gets exiled you lose. Not just Grapeshot.
I agree that Rites isn't a great backup plan, but it only takes up 2 slots and if your PIF, or any of the other storm combo pieces get exiled you can still do something. Really though, i agree it's not that great, and so far i am sticking with my RUg version.. My strategy there against extraction is just siding in 2 Batterskull as a back up plan if anything essential gets exiled.
I guess running Discard could be a fair way of getting rid of Extirpates but that would entail a dramatic shift in the deck. Trying to consistently hit 4 colors so you can play Discard doesn't really seem worth it. Siding in 2 Cliques and hoping to draw and resolve it at the perfect time just seems kind of unrealistic.
I didn´t even consider it because I used to run 2 Songs. In fact, I used to run a little more rituals than you do, because it helped to find at least one before you Gifted the first time. Because of that I only worried about the Extirpate on wincon or multiple Extirpates.
It also helped that you could find multiple Rituals and win without using Past in Flames
The only thing I could see for your list, would be hand disruption or Clique, like I said.
You Gifts End of Turn for [Song, Vengeance, Morphose, PIF] -they Extirpate PIF.
Let's say PIF is already in your hand, Then they Extirpate Seething Song. Or Vengeance. or even Gifts. No matter what's in your hand, your opponent has a chance to Extirpate after you cast Gifts and then you can't finish the combo. No matter if your playing the old or the new version.
And i would love to see a game where you stormed them out without PIF. You would need the most insane fully stacked 7 card hand. [2x Seething Song, 4x Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance]. Then off Morphose draw into Grapeshot, and Remand, as well as 2 other playable spells... . .
You can even win without Past, if you have enough rituals. It's harder and takes a little longer to assemble the cards, but it's possible.
When Song was legal you could even play Song, Fork it, and use the mana from the copied Song to flashback Vengeance, getting to 15 mana without using Past. I guess you can still do it with 7 starting mana (one extra for Channel and other for a red source).
With the help of Bolt it's possible to kill from only 4-5 rituals and Grapeshot-Remand-Grapeshot (with help from opposing shocklands).
It's a lot harder, but I believe you can win with only one of the pieces Extracted.
But then again, I mentioned already other ways to beat Extirpate. Hand disruption can be tricky because of the extra color, but eot Clique seems fine.
What's 15 mana gonna do for you if you only have 2 Storm.. In order or reach a lethal Storm count without PiF, you would need so many things to be going your way.. I really don't see it happening.
Drawing 1 of 2 sideboard Cliques at the perfect time, removing your opponents Extirpate(assuming they only have 1) then giving them another turn(2 draws if you count Cliques cycle) so you can play Gifts(unless you have 7 mana open) seems like it's probably not going to be very successful.
Realistically our options for beating Extirpate comes down to
- Beatdown back up plan
- Alternate Combo back up plan
- Ground Seal lines
- Discard/ Hand Disruption
You can also have Bolts and some creatures and/or manlands maindeck for an alternative wincon. Maybe even Teferi, which is good against Extirpate. I believe there was a list like that somewhere in the thread.
The same way you would need to draw Clique at perfect time, the opponent would need to draw his hate. It doesn't seem anything out of the extraordinary. You can only sideboard hate/answers in and hope to draw them.
Tefari is great though, and i have been putting off playing him for a while. Maybe it's about time i try him out.