I like it! For those of us who can't currently afford a playset of Bob's, it looks strong. Being able to net a card while still setting up our Dredge's/Loam's should feel good. However, if we're at that point, it may just be Win-More... depends if our opponent can still have answers, like Abrupt Decay.
I still like it though; running out our hand for early game Raven's Crimes, Flame Jab's, or from Liliana and getting to abuse the extra-draw still seems worthy of testing.
and (not to slight those without) if you do have Bob's, would you consider running both (8 tot cards)?
Then how do I balance w/ Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Countryside crusher, etc?
EDIT: ebay is already @ ~$10/card, but I was able to snag a set for 1/2 that @ SSG
i would run instead of bob (that and i dont own bobs), since bob will not enable dredge, and we will be emptying our hand latest t4, i think. BS can help top deck without risk of more than 1 life.
and is the only card draw besides looting to trigger dredge (and looting doesnt really work with dredge, right)
Very rarely is dredging more than one a turn relevant. Scriveners dont stack, and they are worthless if you get stuck on lands, or have a card you cant cast in hand.
Bob is going to be better 99 percent of the time
In my build bob would cost me about 1.117 damage per turn using straight EV. The tiny fractional damage per turn isnt enough to make me switch to a significantly weaker card.
Very rarely is dredging more than one a turn relevant. Scriveners dont stack, and they are worthless if you get stuck on lands, or have a card you cant cast in hand.
Bob is going to be better 99 percent of the time
In my build bob would cost me about 1.117 damage per turn using straight EV. The tiny fractional damage per turn isnt enough to make me switch to a significantly weaker card.
I can see other situations, particularly with Faithless Looting. What if you draw a Faithless Looting and a land? Or topdeck Scrivener lategame and have a Looting in the yard? Btw, geting hellbent by T3 is by no means difficult when you're running Raven's Crime.
There will be a lot of times when you can go hellbent and will be miserable.
Bob costs you virtually no more damage than scrivener and doesnt have any hoops to jump through. The deck is already walking a tightrope, i dont see any reason to force it's hands with cards like scrivener.
Those times do exist, but you're almost always making your opponent miserable too. Murdering their hand and board by T3 with cards like Raven's Crime, Smallpox, and Liliana of the Veil tends to do that.
One of the reasons I like Bartleby (my name for him) is as a lategame topdeck. Unlike Bob, you can lay this down and activate it on that same turn with any sort of looting in your hand or the graveyard. If you're short on mana, just take a land and discard it to a Retrace/Assault so you can be hellbent again next turn. With Trade Routes, you can play one of the cards, discard a land if you drew one, and draw two... rinse and repeat. You've basically built your own Null Profusion with upside!
Oh yeah, and the triggers from 2x Bartleby stack, making your Faithless Looting into Thoughtflare. Meanwhile, your opponent untaps and Bob eats a bolt to the face.
Bob is a better early play, but Bartleby is potentially a massive draw engine that Bob could never hope to be. I plan to go bananas with him.
While I do think Blood Scrivener is a good card, I would have to agree with poggydude that it doesn't fit here. Bob does what you need to do every turn and doesn't force you to play your hand out to get some value. I don't like having zero cards in hand with this deck.
I suppose it depends on the deck type. Since I lean more towards the Pox end of things, I generally try to go hellbent and wreck my opponent's hand in the first three turns anyway. There's enough gas (Looting, Loam, now Scrivener), stalling (Smallpox, all manner of removal), and manlands that I've rarely found myself particularly concerned about having no cards; unlike my opponent, I can count on 90% of what I draw being useful in some capacity, with or without Loam.
Oh yeah, and the triggers from 2x Bartleby stack, making your Faithless Looting into Thoughtflare. Meanwhile, your opponent untaps and Bob eats a bolt to the face.
Does 2x Bartleby actually cause you to draw more when your have no hand? Correct me if I'm wrong, but think of this scenario:
With 2 in play while you are without a hand and you draw a card, both will put triggers on the stack. You resolve the first (drawing 2 cards, and taking 1 damage), and the the second trigger resolves, sees that you are no longer empty handed, and does not draw additional cards.
If this is true, then poggydude is correct.
That being said, perhaps in Legacy Lands, Bartley will be better than Bob as you have access to cycle lands and really drop your hand fast thanks to cards like manabond and exploration.
Does 2x Bartleby actually cause you to draw more when your have no hand? Correct me if I'm wrong, but think of this scenario:
With 2 in play while you are without a hand and you draw a card, both will put triggers on the stack. You resolve the first (drawing 2 cards, and taking 1 damage), and the the second trigger resolves, sees that you are no longer empty handed, and does not draw additional cards.
If this is true, then poggydude is correct.
That being said, perhaps in Legacy Lands, Bartley will be better than Bob as you have access to cycle lands and really drop your hand fast thanks to cards like manabond and exploration.
Bartleby would really, really love some cycling lands, and I hope we get some form of it in M14 (like we need another form of mana fixing in Standard). Right now, the only real option for this deck would be to run Horizon Canopy, but we're already pretty suicidal and an additional white splash is really a stretch, though maybe I'd run it as a one-of just to work as a combo enabler.
Just as an aside: I call him Bartleby from the old Melvile short story "Bartleby the Scrivener". The famous words that he repeated over and over in the story were, "I would prefer not to"... and he gradually refuses to do anything until the day he dies of starvation. I like to think of this card as a continuation of his story.
My build is incredibly greedy and I'm running W for Knight of the Reliquary. Aside from a highlander-style land package (again, GREED), I do incorporate a horizon canopy. I may need up this count if I add Bartleby
My build is incredibly greedy and I'm running W for Knight of the Reliquary. Aside from a highlander-style land package (again, GREED), I do incorporate a horizon canopy. I may need up this count if I add Bartleby
I do too. cause I'm a noob at modern.
I dont think I've ever posted my list, actually. here it is.
I realize this is a pretty poor attempt, and would love feedback outside of no tarmi/ on bobs. I cant afford those... (same about thoughtseize, or any other $40+ card. lotv is my most expensive card)
once I get scrivener, I'm probably going to drop a land, 1 raven's crime, and 1 knight for 3 scriveners.
RND 2: vs G/R Tron
Game 1 - I hit the ghost quarter LftL hand and i just kep getting rid of every tron land once he hit 2 of them and ended up turn 8 having 9 lands (After LftL) and unburial for Bobo, 27 to the face. After the 4th ghost quarter it became a wasteland.
Game 2 - I brick on my mulch (Hitting zero lands or grudge or anything) T3 cast LftL on nothing, still hitting zero lands milled, this repeats next turn and he hits a karn, i scoop.
Game 3 - Zero lands till I mull to 4, kept grudge ghost quarter, overgrown tomb, lftl. pretty good keep vs him. except he landed a t1 relic and kept 1 mana up the entire time.
1-2
1-1
RND 3: vs zoo
Game 1 - I kept a flame jab/darkblast hand with other good stuff, won this game easy.
Game 2 - I luckily drew both abrubt decays in opener along with a LftL, game ended with me unburial on sun titan, getting back seismic and just hitting him with lands while controlling his board for 2 turns.
2-0
2-1
Round 4: ID (Small tourney, was guarenteed in)
Top 4: vs Jund (#1 seed)
Game 1: Long game, where for the 1st time I unburial rites on Iona, with nothing but a tarmogofy(4/5) on opponents board, but I am at 7 life and he has 2 manlands. BAD IDEA, he actives, forces block bolts and kills her. If i just get bobo instead I have 4 lands and he cant really do anything. He got me to 1 life before I landed a seismic with 4 lands in hand. I stabilize thankfully he didnt draw a bolt.
Game 2: He draws the nuts... T1 land pass, T2 Dark Confidant, i flame jab it, T3 Tarmogyf + Relic ( no mana to activate), i untap and go for darkblast on goyf, dredge it back hoping to not hit anythign but land or sorcery as he was a 2/3 and luckily did, then flame jab with retrace him, then darkblast it. Which is nice, except he still had a hand, a way to kill my GY and I was on 1 card and it was LftL. I lost shortly after.
Game 3: I hit double IOK, taking his Relic T1 and his Tarmogofy T2. He landed a Deathrite, but flame jab + darkblast took care of him. He removed the flame jab. I then used LftL, hit both sun titan and seismic and a land. I casted/dredged it for 2 more turns before hitting unburial and just unburial sun titan getting seismic and having 6 lands in hand. it was over.
2-1
3-1-1
Top 2: vs U/W Control - In all fairness I knew his entire deck as i helped him with it before the tourny, so even though I told him to pack a GY ahte or two, he refused, not even a rest in peace.
Game 1: I barely stabilize due to top deck ghost quarter for his colonnades, then next dredge landed me the unburial i needed for sun titan/seismic, which locked it up for me.
Game 2: Knowing he had no GY hate, it was very easy as this time I hit the IOK and took his beat stick from Game 1 (Vendilion Clique) and just loamed/dredged till i hit enough power cards. I casted unburial 3 turns in a row, meaning he couldnt cast dudes/activate lands/ and remand turned out to not be good vs me and when i flashback unburial and you remand it, it becomes super good!
4-1-1
Champ!
I know the deck is extremely weak vs GY hate, but I have no Gofys and so playing just Confidants seemed pointless, so i changed it altogether. Worked for this tourny, Portland here I come!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
4th Texas State Champs - Red Deck Loses
5th TCG Qualifier - Soul Sisters
2nd GPT Qualifier - Sealed
3rd Star City Games Super IQ - UB Control
4th Star City Games Super IQ - Solar Flare
1st Star City Games IQ - Esper Heartless
3rd GPT Qualifier - Modern - Bant
2nd Star City Games IQ - Reanimator
2nd GPT Qualifier - Legacy - Goblins
Currently Playing: STANDARD UWBCONTROLUWB EDH UGEDRIC, SPYMASTER OF TRESTUG MODERN WBGRASSAULT LOAMWBGR
Wow! Thank you for sharing this really, really interesting and sweet list!
Do you mind to elaborate a little bit about the card choices and how do you like them after the tournament?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
For the record, if he remands a flashbacked unburial rites, the rites is still exiled.
Remand is the best counterspell vs flashback
oh... well no biggie, i had another in the yard and game ended when it resolved. but nice to know.
as far as the card choices:
Iona was chosen due to the thought I might see a mono red or splinter twin deck. calling red on either is basically GG.
Elesh norn was for the infect or zoo decks, once again, landing would just end the game.
Sun Titan was really there for getting seismic back from the yard incase i didnt hit a BoBo.
Bobo, is a beast and needs no explanation.
The mulch was pretty clutch all tourny, infact not a single time was it not just amazing.
Lingering souls is to slow down the agressive players. Helped alot during the U/W control game where he dropped resto angel and had manlands and V.clique.
The SB was the only thing that didnt do me much good. Couple cards were nice, but I think because I didnt go against a RDW or Zoo deck my opinion is jaded.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
4th Texas State Champs - Red Deck Loses
5th TCG Qualifier - Soul Sisters
2nd GPT Qualifier - Sealed
3rd Star City Games Super IQ - UB Control
4th Star City Games Super IQ - Solar Flare
1st Star City Games IQ - Esper Heartless
3rd GPT Qualifier - Modern - Bant
2nd Star City Games IQ - Reanimator
2nd GPT Qualifier - Legacy - Goblins
Currently Playing: STANDARD UWBCONTROLUWB EDH UGEDRIC, SPYMASTER OF TRESTUG MODERN WBGRASSAULT LOAMWBGR
Cubetutor Link
I still like it though; running out our hand for early game Raven's Crimes, Flame Jab's, or from Liliana and getting to abuse the extra-draw still seems worthy of testing.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
Then how do I balance w/ Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Countryside crusher, etc?
EDIT: ebay is already @ ~$10/card, but I was able to snag a set for 1/2 that @ SSG
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
and is the only card draw besides looting to trigger dredge (and looting doesnt really work with dredge, right)
My WTB - EDH stuff
Bob is going to be better 99 percent of the time
In my build bob would cost me about 1.117 damage per turn using straight EV. The tiny fractional damage per turn isnt enough to make me switch to a significantly weaker card.
I can see other situations, particularly with Faithless Looting. What if you draw a Faithless Looting and a land? Or topdeck Scrivener lategame and have a Looting in the yard? Btw, geting hellbent by T3 is by no means difficult when you're running Raven's Crime.
Cubetutor Link
Bob costs you virtually no more damage than scrivener and doesnt have any hoops to jump through. The deck is already walking a tightrope, i dont see any reason to force it's hands with cards like scrivener.
One of the reasons I like Bartleby (my name for him) is as a lategame topdeck. Unlike Bob, you can lay this down and activate it on that same turn with any sort of looting in your hand or the graveyard. If you're short on mana, just take a land and discard it to a Retrace/Assault so you can be hellbent again next turn. With Trade Routes, you can play one of the cards, discard a land if you drew one, and draw two... rinse and repeat. You've basically built your own Null Profusion with upside!
Oh yeah, and the triggers from 2x Bartleby stack, making your Faithless Looting into Thoughtflare. Meanwhile, your opponent untaps and Bob eats a bolt to the face.
Bob is a better early play, but Bartleby is potentially a massive draw engine that Bob could never hope to be. I plan to go bananas with him.
Cubetutor Link
Cubetutor Link
Does 2x Bartleby actually cause you to draw more when your have no hand? Correct me if I'm wrong, but think of this scenario:
If this is true, then poggydude is correct.
That being said, perhaps in Legacy Lands, Bartley will be better than Bob as you have access to cycle lands and really drop your hand fast thanks to cards like manabond and exploration.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I've been looking it over in the Rules forum, and they've determined it as a replacement effect rather than a triggered ability; therefore, the effect does stack, much like two active Curse of Bloodlettings. Here's the link to the ruling: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=502853
Bartleby would really, really love some cycling lands, and I hope we get some form of it in M14 (like we need another form of mana fixing in Standard). Right now, the only real option for this deck would be to run Horizon Canopy, but we're already pretty suicidal and an additional white splash is really a stretch, though maybe I'd run it as a one-of just to work as a combo enabler.
Just as an aside: I call him Bartleby from the old Melvile short story "Bartleby the Scrivener". The famous words that he repeated over and over in the story were, "I would prefer not to"... and he gradually refuses to do anything until the day he dies of starvation. I like to think of this card as a continuation of his story.
Cubetutor Link
My build is incredibly greedy and I'm running W for Knight of the Reliquary. Aside from a highlander-style land package (again, GREED), I do incorporate a horizon canopy. I may need up this count if I add Bartleby
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I do too. cause I'm a noob at modern.
I dont think I've ever posted my list, actually. here it is.
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Arid Mesa
3 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Stomping Ground
3 Rootbound Crag
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
3 Flame Jab
4 Raven's Crime
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Worm Harvest
3 Faithless Looting
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Eternal Witness
I realize this is a pretty poor attempt, and would love feedback outside of no tarmi/ on bobs. I cant afford those... (same about thoughtseize, or any other $40+ card. lotv is my most expensive card)
once I get scrivener, I'm probably going to drop a land, 1 raven's crime, and 1 knight for 3 scriveners.
also need assist on a sideboard!
My WTB - EDH stuff
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Urborgh, Tomb of the Yawgmoth
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Ghost Quarter (MVP w/ LftL / Although could be Tectonic Edge if needed)
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Graven Cairns
3 Blackcleave Cliff
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Sun Titan
3 Boborygmos, the Enraged
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Eternal Witness
Spells: 28
2 Lilianna of the Veil
3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
3 Flame Jab
3 Raven's Crime
3 Iquisition of Kozilek
1 Darkblast
4 Unburial Rites
3 Lingering Souls
2 Mulch
2 Slaughter Games
2 Abrubt Decay
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ghost Quarter (Wish I added this main as it came in in almost every matchup)
1 Darkblast
1 Ravens Crime
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
1 Dismember
So Matchups went as such:
RND 1: vs some random jank
2-0 not worth describing
1-0
RND 2: vs G/R Tron
Game 1 - I hit the ghost quarter LftL hand and i just kep getting rid of every tron land once he hit 2 of them and ended up turn 8 having 9 lands (After LftL) and unburial for Bobo, 27 to the face. After the 4th ghost quarter it became a wasteland.
Game 2 - I brick on my mulch (Hitting zero lands or grudge or anything) T3 cast LftL on nothing, still hitting zero lands milled, this repeats next turn and he hits a karn, i scoop.
Game 3 - Zero lands till I mull to 4, kept grudge ghost quarter, overgrown tomb, lftl. pretty good keep vs him. except he landed a t1 relic and kept 1 mana up the entire time.
1-2
1-1
RND 3: vs zoo
Game 1 - I kept a flame jab/darkblast hand with other good stuff, won this game easy.
Game 2 - I luckily drew both abrubt decays in opener along with a LftL, game ended with me unburial on sun titan, getting back seismic and just hitting him with lands while controlling his board for 2 turns.
2-0
2-1
Round 4: ID (Small tourney, was guarenteed in)
Top 4: vs Jund (#1 seed)
Game 1: Long game, where for the 1st time I unburial rites on Iona, with nothing but a tarmogofy(4/5) on opponents board, but I am at 7 life and he has 2 manlands. BAD IDEA, he actives, forces block bolts and kills her. If i just get bobo instead I have 4 lands and he cant really do anything. He got me to 1 life before I landed a seismic with 4 lands in hand. I stabilize thankfully he didnt draw a bolt.
Game 2: He draws the nuts... T1 land pass, T2 Dark Confidant, i flame jab it, T3 Tarmogyf + Relic ( no mana to activate), i untap and go for darkblast on goyf, dredge it back hoping to not hit anythign but land or sorcery as he was a 2/3 and luckily did, then flame jab with retrace him, then darkblast it. Which is nice, except he still had a hand, a way to kill my GY and I was on 1 card and it was LftL. I lost shortly after.
Game 3: I hit double IOK, taking his Relic T1 and his Tarmogofy T2. He landed a Deathrite, but flame jab + darkblast took care of him. He removed the flame jab. I then used LftL, hit both sun titan and seismic and a land. I casted/dredged it for 2 more turns before hitting unburial and just unburial sun titan getting seismic and having 6 lands in hand. it was over.
2-1
3-1-1
Top 2: vs U/W Control - In all fairness I knew his entire deck as i helped him with it before the tourny, so even though I told him to pack a GY ahte or two, he refused, not even a rest in peace.
Game 1: I barely stabilize due to top deck ghost quarter for his colonnades, then next dredge landed me the unburial i needed for sun titan/seismic, which locked it up for me.
Game 2: Knowing he had no GY hate, it was very easy as this time I hit the IOK and took his beat stick from Game 1 (Vendilion Clique) and just loamed/dredged till i hit enough power cards. I casted unburial 3 turns in a row, meaning he couldnt cast dudes/activate lands/ and remand turned out to not be good vs me and when i flashback unburial and you remand it, it becomes super good!
4-1-1
Champ!
I know the deck is extremely weak vs GY hate, but I have no Gofys and so playing just Confidants seemed pointless, so i changed it altogether. Worked for this tourny, Portland here I come!
5th TCG Qualifier - Soul Sisters
2nd GPT Qualifier - Sealed
3rd Star City Games Super IQ - UB Control
4th Star City Games Super IQ - Solar Flare
1st Star City Games IQ - Esper Heartless
3rd GPT Qualifier - Modern - Bant
2nd Star City Games IQ - Reanimator
2nd GPT Qualifier - Legacy - Goblins
Currently Playing:
STANDARD
UWBCONTROLUWB
EDH
UGEDRIC, SPYMASTER OF TRESTUG
MODERN
WBGRASSAULT LOAMWBGR
Do you mind to elaborate a little bit about the card choices and how do you like them after the tournament?
Remand is the best counterspell vs flashback
oh... well no biggie, i had another in the yard and game ended when it resolved. but nice to know.
as far as the card choices:
Iona was chosen due to the thought I might see a mono red or splinter twin deck. calling red on either is basically GG.
Elesh norn was for the infect or zoo decks, once again, landing would just end the game.
Sun Titan was really there for getting seismic back from the yard incase i didnt hit a BoBo.
Bobo, is a beast and needs no explanation.
The mulch was pretty clutch all tourny, infact not a single time was it not just amazing.
Lingering souls is to slow down the agressive players. Helped alot during the U/W control game where he dropped resto angel and had manlands and V.clique.
The SB was the only thing that didnt do me much good. Couple cards were nice, but I think because I didnt go against a RDW or Zoo deck my opinion is jaded.
5th TCG Qualifier - Soul Sisters
2nd GPT Qualifier - Sealed
3rd Star City Games Super IQ - UB Control
4th Star City Games Super IQ - Solar Flare
1st Star City Games IQ - Esper Heartless
3rd GPT Qualifier - Modern - Bant
2nd Star City Games IQ - Reanimator
2nd GPT Qualifier - Legacy - Goblins
Currently Playing:
STANDARD
UWBCONTROLUWB
EDH
UGEDRIC, SPYMASTER OF TRESTUG
MODERN
WBGRASSAULT LOAMWBGR