I really like Extractor Demon for matches that are less about attrition and more about racing. You only need to unearth a couple of them to close out a game either before or after spamming Vengevines.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is sweet. She allows you to start turning out a zombie engine without having to actually try and run a sac outlet for Bridge from Below, which means in the event you are not sitting on Bridges, you are able to still go crazy with tokens. I am not entirely convinced you need a sac outlet to make Bridge from Below a value card. Spamming Vengevine will often times prompt trades where you can come out with a couple tokens as replacement while you set yourself to recur it again and I have not had much of an issue losing the Bridge because you are often times left with the ability to just go too wide for an opponent to deal with on a swing back in the event you recur Vines.
Much like how Extractor Demon is there for the matches where there is not a lot of attrition, Sedraxis Specter is there for the attrition matches. The evasive body seems to push through a lot of damage to allow Extractor Demon to deal the final blow, and when you chain creatures out, your opponent is often times left spamming removal allowing Specter to finish off their hand pretty quickly.
I am unsure about the Rites package, I think I may cut it for another dredge card, such as a Life from the Loam and a 4th Sidisi. I just stuck it in recently and it seems sweet when you hit it.
Your deck seems much more midrange than most of the decks I've seen. By the time we are on turn 4, we want to be winning usually, not casting Sidisi, Brood Tyrant. Also in testing, the traditional list never needs more than 3 mana to win, from what I've found.
So I searched the thread before posting and didn't find anything, but has anyone considered or tested Treasure Cruise with Dredge? It seems like it could be really strong, allowed you to Dredge 3 cards with as little as one blue mana.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
Well, what you get is cards in hand, which aren't dredging. So you'd need to cast or discard them. That's alright, but we get our "draw" from the dredge, being able to pick out which card we want for recursion. Once I'm in dredge mode I rarely actually draw off the top.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
I'm coming to the conclusion that fetchlands are needed in some builds. I've avoided them so far, so spendy...but I have a couple decks that really need them.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
I'm not a fan, you have to draw into cruise for it to be effective. We play dredge and I like to hit the point of no return where I only dredge. In blue Variants there are more draw I guess. I don't play blue so I can't really say :/
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
I need a revamp for this deck. Avatar of Woe was good for a while, but my meta changed. Now that I have fetches, Bloodghast is an option, but that Rites package just seems so much more inviting. So, Bloodghast or Unburial Rites + Elesh-Norn?
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
So much rework on list. So much facedesk. So much tears. So much...
Heres a fun thing, I'm going to document a brief synopsis of my thought process of rebuilding my Dredgevine deck.
So, right now I'm reworking the deck, and the first thing I do is set aside 20 slots. 20 land is a good median, I can go higher or lower later, but I'll start with 20. Next I slam in the cards that have to be in there. 4 Vines, 4 Crabs, 4 Faithless, 4 Imps. 24 cards to work with. Vines are the wincon, no contest about throwing them in there. Faithless and Crabs are the best openers the deck can have. If you look at your first seven, you want to be able to say, "I've been Faithless honey, and I got Crabs". I'll want another 4-5 Dredgers, in some combination of Darkblast and Golgari Thug. Lets say 5 to be safe, a 3-2 split favoring Thug. 19 cards to go. We need to get Vengevine out of the graveyard with ease, so lets throw in some Gravecrawler and Fatestitcher, 13 cards left. I'm going to try for a really agressive 4 color build, splashing green for Lotleth Troll. Unfortunately that is almost always better with Bloodghast, eating up more slots. 5 cards left. If I'm running green, and Bloodghast. Might as well change a Thug to Life from the Loam. This is where it gets tricky. 20 lands is clearly not going to do for this build, and I need more Enablers. With 5 slots left, I don't have much in the way of wiggle-room. Magus of the Bazaar is a very powerful enabler, but it is a 2-drop with no combat abilities, and it does nothing immediately to put on pressure. As much as I love its power, and its interaction with Fatestitcher, I need something more immediate. Glimpse the Unthinkable could work very well, but it is a 1 shot mill ten, and does not interact with my hand. If my hand is full of chaff, it would be the last card I want to see. Ideas Unbound is strong, and has a cute interaction with Lotleth Troll, but double blue is a pain to deal with, and not discarding immediately is a problem if I don't have Troll. Well, I haven't tried Treasure Cruise yet, so why not now? Toss in 3 of them, and add the remaining 2 slots to land. So far the deck looks like a pile, and probably plays like one too. testing and refinement will be needed. But before I get ahead of myself, lands. 10 fetches, 4 Mana Confluence, 4 basics? No, that would leave me with only enough room for 4 Shocks. 3 basics, 9 fetches. That could work. Island and Swamp are definite for the basics, and because I have loam, Forest should take priority over mountain. Well, this lil ol pile is ready to be tested on Cockatrice, and on MODO as soon as I can get the UB fetches and Cruises >_>
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"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
I've been playing around with a few DredgeVine lists for a little bit now. I've had mixed success, sometimes blowing people out, other times doing a whole lot of nothing and just getting starched. I tried a 4c list first, but it seemed a little to inconsistent, then went to jund, but sometimes it just didn't seem fast enough, so now i'm back at 4c.. Here's what i have been playing with most recently.
I have read through basically this whole thread, and i noticed a lot of people were playing Haakon and Nameless Inversion at first, but that has sort of fallen out of favor. What's the common opinion on that package?
I was originally running Magus of the Bazaar, but never really got him to do anything so i ended up cutting him. The potential to Fatestitcher + Magus seems pretty awesome though. Same with Skaab Ruinator. It just seemed like he was never necessary. If your swinging with a bunch of Vengevines, Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts, and Lotleth Trolls i think that should be enough. I could be wrong though.
Any ideas on what i could do to make this better would be cool.
Looks pretty solid. And I am shamelessly stealing your manabase for now, minus the Urborg <3
Not a huge fan of Thought Scour, but if it works for you g ahead. I've been testing Cruise, and have had mixed results. Spell Pierce is amazing in the side, but I've been trying its younger brother, Stubborn Denial
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"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
I need a revamp for this deck. Avatar of Woe was good for a while, but my meta changed. Now that I have fetches, Bloodghast is an option, but that Rites package just seems so much more inviting. So, Bloodghast or Unburial Rites + Elesh-Norn?
I don't care for rites since now you need white mana somewhere. I do like Vengeful Pharaoh though.
If you're running fetches, access to white, particularly with shocklands, shouldn't be an issue. As a current Rites-Vine player, I wholeheartedly recommend tossing them in. They are another angle to attack from and in some matchups are extremely relevant. Also, I ran Bloodghasts for a long time and eventually just cut them. While they do come back often, especially with fetches, they don't block. I'm already running Gravecrawlers. I don't need redundancy in the offense-only creature suite.
Another FNM, another 4-0 for me. We had 13 players show up so there was definitely more variety last night than there's been in the past. I'm very comfortable with my deck and how it has been performing. I recently made the switch away from Vexing Devils to Rotting Rats and I think it's for the better. And I added one Life from the Loam just to increase the dredge count as well as fix mana in a pinch. Really, the only slots I worry about from week to week are the Unburial Rites targets. Here's my current build if anyone's interested:
Congrats! I like the Rotting Rats a lot, because they do exactly what this deck needs: discard and recursion of the Crawlers. I switched back to Lothlet Trolls because I need the trample. Do you really need the Gnaw to the Bone main deck?
Meanwhile, I abandoned my 5 color deck. I loved it, but it was a bit too unreliable. Also with so much Burn around, I took too much damage. I had an early 3-1 in a Daily Event on MTGO, but I think that was a fluke. I could not really go far again and often ended at 2-2 or 1-2. Sometimes, whatever I milled was also a bit tepid, so I added a crazy wincon: the Varolz/Death's Shadow combo. It is awesome. One might say this deck is not optimal, but that is compensated by a 13/14 Birds of Paradise. It is simply awesome!
I had so many iterations of Vengevine decks that I actually lost count. By the way, THIS DECK DOESN'T CONTAIN DREDGE CARDS, so I am not sure whether I can post it here without getting expelled.
I was getting tired of dredging and thus drawing Stinkweed Imp/Golgari Thug. The dredge is nice, but technically it costs me a card. In this build I select what card I should draw, and what card should go to the grave. I like this approach, because now I have more control which cards go to my hand.
It had great testings so far, and I tried 2 Daily Events so far: one was 2-2 and one 3-1, and until now I am quite satisfied. I will update it soon with the new fetches.
No Pizza... Just.... No...
In all seriousness, the Varolz combo seems a lil cute to work, even in Dredgevine. But then again, I am rebuilding a Haakon Build right now, so I shan't be one to talk.
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"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Dangit Pizza...just when I started to like my deck you bring up Varolz and now I'm wondering how I can slip him in.... That deck looks sweet, though with the Wayfinders and Lootings do you have enough stuff to reliably fill your graveyard or are you just relying on Varolz and Lotleth to make up the difference?
Also, just call your deck DredgelessVine and you're good. Still has dredge in the name!
re: Gnaw to the Bone - I still like one maindeck. I'd say 70% of the time it's a blank card for me. Either I'm winning or losing before it becomes a significant factor, but 30% of the time I use it as a fall back to either buy a little time or 'reset' my life total. It's not uncommon for me to lose around 8-10 life just from fetch-shocking myself, which puts me at a disadvantage against many (if not most) decks by halving the work my opponent has to do to win.
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Modern:
UWRBGDredgeVineUWRBG
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4 Hedron Crab
4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Extractor Demon
2 Skaab Ruinator
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Gravecrawler
3 Sedraxis Specter
Other Spells
3 Bridge from Below
2 Darkblast
1 Unburial Rites
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Unburial Rites
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Spell Pierce
2 Slaughter Pact
3 Disfigure
I really like Extractor Demon for matches that are less about attrition and more about racing. You only need to unearth a couple of them to close out a game either before or after spamming Vengevines.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is sweet. She allows you to start turning out a zombie engine without having to actually try and run a sac outlet for Bridge from Below, which means in the event you are not sitting on Bridges, you are able to still go crazy with tokens. I am not entirely convinced you need a sac outlet to make Bridge from Below a value card. Spamming Vengevine will often times prompt trades where you can come out with a couple tokens as replacement while you set yourself to recur it again and I have not had much of an issue losing the Bridge because you are often times left with the ability to just go too wide for an opponent to deal with on a swing back in the event you recur Vines.
Much like how Extractor Demon is there for the matches where there is not a lot of attrition, Sedraxis Specter is there for the attrition matches. The evasive body seems to push through a lot of damage to allow Extractor Demon to deal the final blow, and when you chain creatures out, your opponent is often times left spamming removal allowing Specter to finish off their hand pretty quickly.
I am unsure about the Rites package, I think I may cut it for another dredge card, such as a Life from the Loam and a 4th Sidisi. I just stuck it in recently and it seems sweet when you hit it.
I am light on Dredge cards because I have Hedron Crab and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant alongside the Darkblast.
Been doing well so far, beating out Mono White Soul Sisters, Tron, Pod, and UWR Midrange.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
WWUGeist of Saint TraftUWW
UUBBLazav, Dimir MastermindBBUU
BRMalfegorRB
RGThromok the InsatiableGR
GGWWTrostani, Selesnya's VoiceWWGG
WBTeysa, Orzhov ScionBW
BGGGlissa, the TraitorGGB
GGUUPrime Speaker ZeganaUUGG
URJhoira of the GhituRU
RRWWAurelia, the WarleaderWWRR
UBRJeleva, Nephalias ScourgeRBU
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Heres a fun thing, I'm going to document a brief synopsis of my thought process of rebuilding my Dredgevine deck.
So, right now I'm reworking the deck, and the first thing I do is set aside 20 slots. 20 land is a good median, I can go higher or lower later, but I'll start with 20. Next I slam in the cards that have to be in there. 4 Vines, 4 Crabs, 4 Faithless, 4 Imps. 24 cards to work with. Vines are the wincon, no contest about throwing them in there. Faithless and Crabs are the best openers the deck can have. If you look at your first seven, you want to be able to say, "I've been Faithless honey, and I got Crabs". I'll want another 4-5 Dredgers, in some combination of Darkblast and Golgari Thug. Lets say 5 to be safe, a 3-2 split favoring Thug. 19 cards to go. We need to get Vengevine out of the graveyard with ease, so lets throw in some Gravecrawler and Fatestitcher, 13 cards left. I'm going to try for a really agressive 4 color build, splashing green for Lotleth Troll. Unfortunately that is almost always better with Bloodghast, eating up more slots. 5 cards left. If I'm running green, and Bloodghast. Might as well change a Thug to Life from the Loam. This is where it gets tricky. 20 lands is clearly not going to do for this build, and I need more Enablers. With 5 slots left, I don't have much in the way of wiggle-room. Magus of the Bazaar is a very powerful enabler, but it is a 2-drop with no combat abilities, and it does nothing immediately to put on pressure. As much as I love its power, and its interaction with Fatestitcher, I need something more immediate. Glimpse the Unthinkable could work very well, but it is a 1 shot mill ten, and does not interact with my hand. If my hand is full of chaff, it would be the last card I want to see. Ideas Unbound is strong, and has a cute interaction with Lotleth Troll, but double blue is a pain to deal with, and not discarding immediately is a problem if I don't have Troll. Well, I haven't tried Treasure Cruise yet, so why not now? Toss in 3 of them, and add the remaining 2 slots to land. So far the deck looks like a pile, and probably plays like one too. testing and refinement will be needed. But before I get ahead of myself, lands. 10 fetches, 4 Mana Confluence, 4 basics? No, that would leave me with only enough room for 4 Shocks. 3 basics, 9 fetches. That could work. Island and Swamp are definite for the basics, and because I have loam, Forest should take priority over mountain. Well, this lil ol pile is ready to be tested on Cockatrice, and on MODO as soon as I can get the UB fetches and Cruises >_>
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Looks pretty solid. And I am shamelessly stealing your manabase for now, minus the Urborg <3
Not a huge fan of Thought Scour, but if it works for you g ahead. I've been testing Cruise, and have had mixed results. Spell Pierce is amazing in the side, but I've been trying its younger brother, Stubborn Denial
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
If you're running fetches, access to white, particularly with shocklands, shouldn't be an issue. As a current Rites-Vine player, I wholeheartedly recommend tossing them in. They are another angle to attack from and in some matchups are extremely relevant. Also, I ran Bloodghasts for a long time and eventually just cut them. While they do come back often, especially with fetches, they don't block. I'm already running Gravecrawlers. I don't need redundancy in the offense-only creature suite.
Agreed on the Vengeful Pharaoh though.
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
Creature (27)
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Malfegor
4x Rotting Rats
1x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
4x Vengevine
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (7)
4x Faithless Looting
1x Life from the Loam
2x Unburial Rites
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Back to Nature
1x Batterskull
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Spellskite
2x Thoughtseize
No Pizza... Just.... No...
In all seriousness, the Varolz combo seems a lil cute to work, even in Dredgevine. But then again, I am rebuilding a Haakon Build right now, so I shan't be one to talk.
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Also, just call your deck DredgelessVine and you're good. Still has dredge in the name!
re: Gnaw to the Bone - I still like one maindeck. I'd say 70% of the time it's a blank card for me. Either I'm winning or losing before it becomes a significant factor, but 30% of the time I use it as a fall back to either buy a little time or 'reset' my life total. It's not uncommon for me to lose around 8-10 life just from fetch-shocking myself, which puts me at a disadvantage against many (if not most) decks by halving the work my opponent has to do to win.