I have always loved the Rites package in the old Dredgevine lists from the older days. I give you props for running it.
But, without any removal with the exception of 2 Darkblast, and cards that are usually sideboard cards, how do you even win? Life from the Loam is good, but as a 2 of with 22 lands, it definitely seems out of place. I can see the Gnaw to the Bone from taking all the damage with fetch and shock lands.
Personally, just from looking at this without testing it, I think that moving the Darkblast to the sideboard and cutting Life from the Loam maybe altogether and replacing them with either Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt would do you a lot of good. Even Lightning Axe has potential to work here, but without some decent removal, I find it near impossible to push through all of the necessary damage. Bolt deals the final blow to players, Abrupt Decay deals with Goyf and Lilliana. Getting these out of the way is essential.
Against the decks you said, Darkblast works well vs Soul Sisters, Affinity and Delver. It is terrible vs Pod, Control and Mono-G. Just seems logical to me to be a sideboard card. When I first started playing Dredgevine a year ago, I was gung ho on Darkblast as a 3-4 of because it could dredge. After a few months, I decided to switch it to the SB and replaced it with Bolt. Where I didn't reuse it, I was able to kill the annoying creatures Darkblast couldn't deal with and I started becoming so much more consistent and faster. Just trying to provide some useful suggestions. I'm sure someone from this thread can back me up on this.
I couldn't agree more with the Darkblast sentiments, and this was after playing it in just two matchups. On paper it seems great, but I found myself rarely using it and wishing it was something else in pretty much every game. Same for the Life from the Loam. While great in theory, I cast it once and it was there more for the Dredge aspect than it was for anything else. I didn't post the sideboard, but I had the full set of Abrupt Decay in there and would rather just have them main to start. I'll try either the Lightning Bolt or the Lightning Axe main and see how that works. You're right that I'm a little removal light at the moment. I'll tweak things around and let you know what sticks. Thanks!
I feel like I'm often wanting some more cards like Grisly Salvage
You could add some dredgers like Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Thug which can also help with getting Vengevines out of the yard since you can cast them after dredging.
I had a few in for a bit, and I thought they were too slow with not enough impact. Without a reliable way to sacrifice Thug, I worry that it won't get into the 'yard enough, and Stinkweed just seemed to sit around. There were always better things to cast for 3 mana, and when it was dead I rarely wanted to dredge it because I'd rather get more gas. Salvage turns into gas, while Stinkweed may turn into a Vengevine or Bloodghast, but there's no guarantee.
I couldn't agree more with the Darkblast sentiments, and this was after playing it in just two matchups. On paper it seems great, but I found myself rarely using it and wishing it was something else in pretty much every game. Same for the Life from the Loam. While great in theory, I cast it once and it was there more for the Dredge aspect than it was for anything else. I didn't post the sideboard, but I had the full set of Abrupt Decay in there and would rather just have them main to start. I'll try either the Lightning Bolt or the Lightning Axe main and see how that works. You're right that I'm a little removal light at the moment. I'll tweak things around and let you know what sticks. Thanks!
Just pointing something out. The successful Dredgevine decks in the past have run something along the lines of 6-8 removal (usually combinations of Bolt and Decay). Removal is more important in Modern than a full list of creatures, so don't worry about hitting all of the creatures as you'll hit multiple of them once you begin dredging
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It's a pretty traditional list, I believe. I got bits from the first post of this thread (Outdated, I know,), Frank Lepore's article that he did on it back in February (Also outdated,), and a few comments from skimming this thread. It works fairly well, I think I've won more than I've lost since I started using it. I think that the sideboard needs some work, and I feel like I'm often wanting some more cards like Grisly Salvage. It also can have trouble actually getting Vengevines out of the 'yard sometimes, but that just be the way I play.
I have stated before that I think Bridge from Below and Necromancer's Stockpile are too inconsistent and mana intensive for what we're trying to do. Others agree too. Life from the Loam with 9 diggers is a waste of a slot. You can always grab a land from Salvage or keep one with Looting. Bolts are more consistent than Axe, so I would change them and dump the last Lightning Axe. I believe nine dig cards is too many. Combined with Lotleth Troll, you have enough enablers and not enough creatures. Dump the Burning Inquiry. I find myself playing more consistent with running 3 Grisly Salvage instead of 4 because statistically, it just works better and I'm sure others can also say that 4 is too many. Take the card slots I took out and devote them to creatures (Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp, etc). That's the dredge package that makes Dredgevine work (you should have 5-6 of these two in any combination you seem fit. Remember Imp is removal with Deathtouch).
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I have stated before that I think Bridge from Below and Necromancer's Stockpile are too inconsistent and mana intensive for what we're trying to do. Others agree too. Life from the Loam with 9 diggers is a waste of a slot. You can always grab a land from Salvage or keep one with Looting. Bolts are more consistent than Axe, so I would change them and dump the last Lightning Axe. I believe nine dig cards is too many. Combined with Lotleth Troll, you have enough enablers and not enough creatures. Dump the Burning Inquiry. I find myself playing more consistent with running 3 Grisly Salvage instead of 4 because statistically, it just works better and I'm sure others can also say that 4 is too many. Take the card slots I took out and devote them to creatures (Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp, etc). That's the dredge package that makes Dredgevine work (you should have 5-6 of these two in any combination you seem fit. Remember Imp is removal with Deathtouch).
Wowza, lots of response!
Yeah, I was reading the latest batch of stuff on Bridge from Below and Necromancer's Stockpile. They don't seem worth it upon reflection. I still might try Stockpile to be sure, but definitely not many. You're right, I rarely cast Life from the Loam and Burning Inquiry kind of sucks. I actually really like Axe. Early game I use it to dump stuff to the 'yard while taking out their dorks. And it usually can kill Goyf which is nice. I will probably swap the numbers up between the two, though. I can try 3 Salvage as opposed to 4. It's just a numbers thing, right? (In the fifteen cards you reveal with the first three, you likely hit the fourth at some point.) As I said above, I found the dredgers really slow. I never wanted to cast Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp just rarely felt worth it. I might test with them in again, but I'm skeptical.
Any comments on the sideboard? Also, I was thinking about a single Gnaw to the Bone in the main, as I often find that I'm just slightly too slow against some decks and I think it would give more time and help with some matchups (Burn, Scapeshift, most Aggro,)
Yeah, I was reading the latest batch of stuff on Bridge from Below and Necromancer's Stockpile. They don't seem worth it upon reflection. I still might try Stockpile to be sure, but definitely not many. You're right, I rarely cast Life from the Loam and Burning Inquiry kind of sucks. I actually really like Axe. Early game I use it to dump stuff to the 'yard while taking out their dorks. And it usually can kill Goyf which is nice. I will probably swap the numbers up between the two, though. I can try 3 Salvage as opposed to 4. It's just a numbers thing, right? (In the fifteen cards you reveal with the first three, you likely hit the fourth at some point.) As I said above, I found the dredgers really slow. I never wanted to cast Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp just rarely felt worth it. I might test with them in again, but I'm skeptical.
Any comments on the sideboard? Also, I was thinking about a single Gnaw to the Bone in the main, as I often find that I'm just slightly too slow against some decks and I think it would give more time and help with some matchups (Burn, Scapeshift, most Aggro,)
The Gnaw to the Bone is a meta call, so that's up to you. Remember that the dredgers are combo with Faithless Looting, so when you cast it on T2/or flashback T3, you can dredge 8-10 cards, which is very common for me and not just a fluke. Otherwise, just play test removal and see what you think
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The Gnaw to the Bone is a meta call, so that's up to you. Remember that the dredgers are combo with Faithless Looting, so when you cast it on T2/or flashback T3, you can dredge 8-10 cards, which is very common for me and not just a fluke. Otherwise, just play test removal and see what you think
So you would say that proper thing to do (Usually,) with Faithless Looting is to dredge instead of draw, if possible? I usually don't, but I'll be sure to try it some time soon.
So you would say that proper thing to do (Usually,) with Faithless Looting is to dredge instead of draw, if possible? I usually don't, but I'll be sure to try it some time soon.
I mean it is called "Dredge"vine for a reason haha. Here's what I usually do. I generally draw the first two turns because I have nothing to dredge. Then, once I get things to dredge, I usually always dredge instead of draw.
There are circumstances in which I draw instead of dredge late game, and this comes with playing a lot of games with this deck. Examples include when I either need an Abrupt Decay for an approaching LotV ultimate, a third land to cast two creatures, or a zombie to get my Gravecrawlers online to activate Vengevine. There are a lot of things to do, but either way it's up to you. Something I do is if I don't need land and I just need to see more cards in my deck are to draw, flashback Faithless Looting, and decide what to keep. I hope some of this helps. There are certainly too many situations to foster up to even begin naming all of them
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I played DredgeVine again last night at FNM and to my pleasant surprise there were 9 of us so I actually got some more variety in my matches. I went 2-2 overall, but my two losses were close and with perhaps different lines of play I may have been able to change an outcome or two. The deck is solid and provides multiple lines of play, which I value, allowing me to switch gears depending on the situations. I felt like all my losses were due to my misplays or 'missed opportunities' rather than the deck's fault.
@creamy - I did what you suggested and mainboarded more removal and it definitely helped (and I didn't miss the Darkblasts at all).
Round 1 - Mono-Green Ramp
This was the first time I played against this fellow so I didn't really know what to expect. In Game 1 his mana dorks and enchantments ended up accelerating out a Primeval Titan and Pathrazer of Ulamog. I was one turn behind being able to stabilize and got some Kessig Wolf Run action in my face. Games 2 and 3 though I was able to overwhelm him with Gravecrawlers and Vengevines before he had a chance to set up.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - GW Hexproof
Game 1 he rode a Dryad Arbor and a few Daybreak Coronets to the win before I found any relevant removal. Game 2 he boarded in his Scavenging Oozes and Rest in Peaces to fight my graveyard tricks, so I decided to 'play fair' and just cast a turn one Birds of Paradise which accelerated me into back to back Vengevines on turn three and four. Game 3 we both flooded out hard and he ended up finding a creature before I found anything to dredge or cast. Literally ANYTHING I could have found would have helped, but alas, them's the breaks sometimes.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - Pod (Melira? - In either game I never saw a Melira or Viscera Seer, so I'm assuming, but it could have just been Junk Pod)
Game 1 was probably the craziest game with this deck I've played to date. He understandably doesn't have much graveyard interaction in game 1 so I pretty much have free reign to get things rolling and get my board set up, which I do. Long story short, I get him down to around 5 or so life before he plops down a Kitchen Finks and an Archangel of Thune. Awesome. I kept crashing in with creatures (I had the numbers) but I couldn't ever get over the hump and eventually the Archangel, Finks, and a few-turns-later Scavenging Ooze sealed the deal for him. All in all that first game took 35 minutes. So we shuffled up for the second game and got rolling with around 13 minutes left in the match. Game 2 he ended up getting out a Linvala, Keeper of Silence and a Restoration Angel before I could stabilize and that was that.
0-2 (1-2)
Round 4 - UWR Control
Much like Pod, my opponent had zero ways to profitably interact with my dredging in Game 1. This allowed me to build a board of 3 Hedron Crabs, 3 Vengevines, 1 Bloodghast and 2 Gravecrawlers. Still, he cast 3 Cryptic Commands (tapping my creatures) and flashed back 2 of them with Snapcaster Mage which stretched the game out a bit. But once he was out of Cryptic tricks, I overwhelmed him and swung for the win. Game 2 I switched to a more Gifts-Unburial package and went lighter on the dredging. On turn four I was able to Rites an Iona, Shield of Emeria into play (naming blue) and then follow that up the next turn by Rites-ing an Empyrial Archangel into play. That was enough.
2-0 (2-2)
Takeaways - (1) I wasn't expecting to see Pod and so my sideboard was not too helpful for that (Torpor Orb would have been nice). Also, I have to figure out a way to get rid of an Archangel of Thune. Abrupt Decay doesn't work and Lightning Bolt is too small. Perhaps I toss a Lightning Axe into the mix. (2) My UWR Control opponent misplayed in Game 2 when I Rites'd in the Iona. He had a Path to Exile in his graveyard and a Snapcaster Mage in his hand (with mana to cast) that he could have played targeting the Path to force me to name white instead of blue. He missed it, but I had no clue either because I wasn't paying too much attention to his graveyard. I need to be more aware of those things. (3) As lame as it sounds, GW Hexproof is relevant enough in my meta that I might just have to put a Back to Nature or two in my sideboard for that matchup (maybe in place of the Darkblast?). Otherwise I'm stuck one for one trading my removal with their enchantments and their curve is lower.
Overall though, I was really happy with the deck and the choices. I'm a fan of the Rites package because it allows another line of play mid-to-late game and I think it takes focus off of some of the 'smaller' things in the deck. Hedron Crabs have been all-stars for me allowing me to really dump a LOT of stuff in my graveyard. But those 0/2 walls look pretty innocuous when my opponent can see an Elesh Norn sitting in the graveyard.
@creamy - I did what you suggested and mainboarded more removal and it definitely helped (and I didn't miss the Darkblasts at all).
More removal is definitely spot on here. I might suggest more options for the sideboard. I think you are over committing to the Rites package. Given that twin, pod and tron are some of the most common matchups, I would dedicate a few more spots to artifact removal / more generic hate. Creeping Corrosion is good vs Affinity. Golgari Charm is good against control decks with their sweepers and does work with either enchantments or something else, I cant remember off the top of my head. Rakdos Charm is amazing vs Twin & is good at dealing with Pods & artifacts that Tron likes to throw down T3 (wurmcoil, karn, etc). I think some of these changes will help you be better situated for G2/G3. Also, maybe taking the Gnaw to the Bone to the SB could help with more removal, unless you feel you're losing a lot of life and your meta is full of aggro?!
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Hello everyone I have not been as a I've a member of the group as I should have but I am definitely an active player of the deck. I originally started plying when I dcider to return to the modern scene about 2 years ago. I experimented with the BG version then I moved and added blue for the explosiveness that heron crab and the other discard outlets offer the deck. That deck lasted me for over a year but after playing alot (more Tha. I probably should have) I realized the gigantic flaw with the deck, I wasn't losing to graveyard hate as much as I was straight up losing to disruption. For example how often would a turn one bird or crab or even a turn 2 troll get blown up and you look at your hand and go.... well that set me back 3 turns. My conclusion is that i decided to put the deck back together so it would be much more resilient. I believe I have achieved ed that and th e list I'm about to post is the list I will keep you posted on after my Tuesday night modern events and gp Boston this upcoming weekend. (Warning it has been.a while since I mad deck tags and I am also doing this from my phone. If I screw up I will fix it tomorrow after the modern event)
I just got in to Modern and I'm trying out this deck. I like it a lot so far.
I took it to Monday Night Magic last night and did okay for my first modern event, I think. I took creamy99's list from a few days ago, except I accidentally removed the 4 Blackcleave Cliffs for 4 Noxious Revival. I realized just now that's how I got the Revivals to fit in :-/, and it makes my mana troubles all the more clear to me.
Regardless, I went 2-2.
Match 1: 0-2 Scapeshift.
Game 1 he basically just did his thing with minimal input on my end and killed me with Scapeshift. I think my only 'mistake' was not having him play out the Scapeshift to make sure he had enough Mountains, but I don't know if I'd really call it a mistake.
Game 2 was similar. I boarded out most of my creature removal for Inquisition of Kozilek, Gnaw to the Bone, and maybe Golgari Charm (not sure if Scapeshift runs many boardwipes or just counters). Things were going okay until he played an Inferno Titan that I didn't have an answer to.
Match 2: 1-2 GB Rock (Goodstuff?)
Game 1: LONG GAME. It took about 35 minutes as I cowered behind some Stinkweed Imps after a Scooze ate my dudes. There were several misplays on my part (double Lightning Bolt on Goyf with Abrupt Decay in hand, dredge for Stinkweed Imp instead of Golgari Thug when I had mana to Thug + Gravecrawler, but not Imp + Crawler, etc.) Mostly nerves.
Game 2: Not as long a game. I think I took out the 2 Darkblast and something else I had mainboard for Abrupt Decay and 2 IoKs. He mulliganed to five looking for Grafdiggers but never found it. I killed him with Lotleth and Vengevines.
Game 3: Stomped by some large Goyfs, never got Abrupt Decay in hand. LotV handled my Imps.
Match 3: 2-0 Scapeshift
Game 1 & 2: Opponent got mana flooded with no finishers. G1 was just double Vengevine on turn 4 + Lotleth Troll, which was nice. Biggest play in G2 was he used 6 Valakut triggers to wipe my board, but based on the ordering a Golgari Thug put a Vengevine on top of my library which I hardcasted for kill.
Match 4: 2-0 Monoblack Vampires
I think this guy is just getting started with modern with mostly cards he already had. A budget deck that ran a lot of targetted removal. Actually made my job easier since he essentially 0-1'd himself due to dredge and vengevine.
All in all, I had a ton of fun. I was nervous going in to the matches but everyone was pretty chill. Got lots of rule questions answered. Annoyed that I had left 4 lands out of my deck since I was running in to mana issues all night. I'm planning on changing up the sideboard based on what I saw around the shop. 2 Scapeshift decks, 2 Storm (1 Ad Nauseum, and just heard of another), RG Tron, and that GB Rock deck. I'm planning on adding either 2x Slaughter Games, and maybe 1x Boil to the sideboard, removing 2x Darkblast and (i think) 1x Creeping Corrosion since I didn't see Affinity.
My biggest problem was not getting my beats fast enough against Scapeshift since I was lacking anything amazing for it in the SB except IoK and sort of Gnaw to the Bone unless I'm missing something. 2nd biggest problem was Scooze. How do you all usually deal with Scapeshift if you don't get off to a blistering pace? If you fear Scooze, do you just hold an Abrupt Decay as best you can?
Another night, another decent performance with the deck. I went 2-1 with it (we ended up scratching the fourth round for some reason), with my only loss coming to Affinity and poor mulligan decisions. A quick recap:
Round 1 - Junk Gifts
Game one he Raven's Crime'd me twice (thanks!) which got the ball rolling pretty early and he scooped once I had a few Vengevines on the table. Game two I got off to a slow start and he stuck an Elesh Norn that locked things up for him. Game three I fought through a Damnation and returned a Vengevine and hasty Bloodghast to seal the deal.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - Affinity
Game one he landed two Vault Skirges and two Cranial Platings, but Gnaw to the Bone coupled with constantly dredged Stinkweed Imps eventually cleared the board for my Vengevines and Co. to take the game. Game two I should have mulliganed harder for my sideboard hate, but didn't and a turn three Etched Champion followed by a turn four Cranial Plating was enough to move to game three. Game three went to time and he got it in turns with the same game plan as game two. I may have had a chance to do something by Rites-ing back an Elesh, but he had previously exiled my white mana source and I had the wrong color fetch in my hand.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - GW Auras
Game one he got out a Bogle and suited it up, but miscalculated on the combat math and left himself open for lethal on the swingback. Game 2 he landed an early Scavenging Ooze and I didn't draw any removal and that was enough. Game three I Rites'd an Iona into play naming white which effectively shut him down.
2-1 (2-1)
I'm relatively set on the mainboard, however I'm going to be making one small change: -1x Gnaw to the Bone, +1x Mystic Retrieval. I need something to get back the Decays and Bolts that I inevitably end up dredging or milling away and this is the best option I think I have. The sideboard as always is being tweaked and I plan on taking the following list to FNM later this week:
As much as Stony Silence hoses Affinity, with the Mystic Retrieval, I'm going to try relying on the Creeping Corrosion and Rakdos Charms to get there. We'll see if that works. Plus, I don't have to rely on an early white source to get the Silence on board.
Tarmogoyf doesn't seem like it fits. I tried it online and wasn't impressed. We're a combo deck, not an aggro deck, so it doesn't fit.
Pack Rat is definitely a good card, but you have to have the right kind of build for it to function. You want to decrease the number of dead graveyard cards and increase your dredge count so you can continuously hit discard for the rat. Also, increase your land to 21 for consistency purposes since you need to hit 3 mana.
As far as the sideboard goes, most of you seem to be forgetting the sweeper for affinity aka Creeping Corrosion. Disruption is good via Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek. Golgari Charm fits in some lists, and I like Nihil Spellbomb in the mirror and vs Snapcaster decks especially since it helps dredge. Back to Nature is good vs Bogles. Darkblast is amazing since it dredges, but it's only good in certain matchups. A lot of new players try this MB, but once they test, they'll realize that it sucks vs most decks. Side it in vs Affinity and Fae, also vs Twin (sometimes) & UWR (sometimes, depends on the build).
Since I'm too lazy for quotes tonight, here are my recommendations to above posters:
@4554551n, your SB needs tweaking. Increase your number of Rakdos Charm and Golgari Charm. Take out Slaughter Pact. The charms handle every matchup you can think of, and Pact costs an entire turn. We have much more efficient removal than this. I believe this will help your G2/G3 chances of winning the match. Also, your list looks like it inflicts too much damage to yourself between fetch lands, Thoughtseize, and Smallpox. I might try IoK MB instead
@Theflayedone, Fauna Shaman is too slow and always gets sided out. Try either Dregscape Zombie or an extra dredger for more consistency.
@CROTALUS, way to go sir! Only thing I might change is possibly add in a Grisly Salvage or 2, as the digging helps. 29 creatures seems 1-2 too many.
@Smarmius, First off, my SB is for my meta so don't take it as the set in stone way to go. I tested the Noxious Revival route for my Avatar of Woe alternate win condition, but it's also a dead GY card, so I just found it messed with my consistency. As for scapeshift, there's two ways to win. You either have to make yourself faster or what I do when i see scapeshift in my meta is transform my SB and add 4 land destruction spells for instant speed. Kill a mountain already in play before Scapeshift resolves (otherwise the Valakut trigger goes on the stack and resolves since they have priority). This messes up combat math and prevents three damage, which should buy you a turn. Remember six lands for 18 or less life or eight for more than 18 life, so taking out the land to sacrifice prevents them from having enough mountains in play to activate all of their triggers.
@4554551n - I won't speak for creamy99, but I would think you'd want to increase the dredge count for two reasons. (1) dredge cards give you guaranteed Pack Rat discard outlets every turn; and (2) while grabbing the dredge card, you're also loading up your graveyard at a pace of greater than one card per turn, which is kind of the point of DredgeVine. If the gameplan is to get to three mana and sit back on a rat army, it's drifting away from the purpose of this deck. If Pack Rat exists in the deck as a nice backup/alternate plan in cases when needed, then there might be something there.
Another important (and probably obvious) thing - the tokens aren't cast, so they do nothing to 'activate' the Vengevines, which to me make PR more of a non-synergistic piece in the deck than I'd prefer.
Saying all of this, I haven't tested with it at all. PR is a powerhouse in the right build. I just don't know if this one takes full advantage of him.
@Creamy99 I definitely understand that the SB is tuned for your meta. It was just my starting point :). Thanks for the tips re: Scapeshift. I've been looking for some instant speed land destruction, and mostly what I'm seeing are Boil, Fulminator Mage, Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter. Which ones do you usually bring in? Am I missing other cards that you usually use?
If I'm not mistaken, you can destroy a mountain while the Valakut triggers are on the stack, and if you take them below the 6 Mountains they need then all the triggers will fizzle because of that intervening if clause. I might need to get that clarified by a judge at some point.
How do you all usually deal with Manlands? Just have creatures/Lightning Bolts to block or kill? I was getting beat down by a Treetop Village when I was playing against the BG Rock guy, and it was frustrating. I'm thinking about Putrefy in the SB or Slaughter Pact in the SB if I need that extra removal.
Any thoughts on Svogthos, the Restless Tomb? I'm going to think about it as a 1 of if I'm also running Life from the Loam, but I didn't see anything about it previously in this thread.
My response to a few players as I'm too lazy to quote lately.
@smarmius, if you run Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime is a great alternative to card advantage. The combination is amazing and even better once you test it. I loved it, but it wasn't the direction I wanted to take for my build. I use Tectonic Edge because Ghost Quarter can still let them fetch a basic mountain, which is exactly what you don't want. Not sure on Boil, but I would think that we want to be focusing on Mountains, not Islands. and Fulminator Mage is a little too expensive for my taste.
As for manlands, just chump block. If I'm losing to man lands, I'm not winning the game. The only one I ever struggle vs is Celestial Colonnade, which UWR runs. If they get to that point with that amount of mana, they basically won the game.
@capndeevers, you're spot on with my reasoning.
@4554551n, Creeping Corrosion is designed specifically for Affinity matches. I run Grudges in my SB (2-3 depending on my desires), but they only deal with 2 at a time, 1 if dredged. I run 2 Corrosions so that it takes care of their problems: Ravagers, Blinkmoths, Skirges, and equip cards. With Birds of Paradise, four mana is definitely doable for me, especially digging with Faithless Looting and Grisly Salvage. I usually keep a third land so that casting my stuff isn't an issue. If I don't keep a third land, I'm winning on T3 casting 2 Gravecrawler.
Don't underestimate the charms. Golgari Charm is amazing. Against control, regen saves all of your creatures from most board wipes except Wrath of God. If control taps out T4 casting a sweeper and you regen them, they have no answers and you generally win from the pressure. The -1/-1 is great vs Token and UWR midrange decks. Who cares if our creatures die, recast them next turn! We are a GY deck afterall and 90% of our small creatures come back. Rakdos Charm answers the problematic pieces: Tron, Pod, Affinity, and Twin. Twin and Tron are huge in my meta, so this is perfect. Let Twin go off, then deal damage to each player with each creature and win. Or kill their T3 Tron and set them back. I love charms, best utility part of my SB.
I don't remember who mentioned Slaughter Games, but it's a good card. However, at 4 mana, it's a little mana intensive. We don't want too much interaction with our opponent at 4 mana unless we're going to win the game. Twin has other creatures, Pod can win through creature recursion, and Control has too many different win conditions. Remember we're a combo deck and this is wasting a turn we could be using to recur Vengevines or add fuel to our graveyard. Being a T4/T5 format, the first few turns are essential. Feel free to let me know how it worked for you, but I just didn't find it fast enough for what I was doing.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Have any of you tried a sort of slower control variant of this deck? I've been thinking of trying to brew something up with a sort of Life from the Loam/Smallpox core.
Ok I am back here is some thoughts after catching up on the thread. Abrupt decays should be main board with at least 3 playing a fourth on the sideboard if you feel it is necessary. Pack rats are too many intensive. I still feel tyramets is a 1 of max. I also feel like a lot of this thread is expanding to mana intensive cards which takes away ffrom focusing on recurring vines. I keep seeing cards like necromancer stockpile, pack rats, and tyramet too much mana wasted. I also feel like some sac outlets would help a lot, they could let us dodge paths and maybe give something back? I agree with creamy on slaughter pact but I really haven't found a good alternative to break decks.as of now I'm really looking for a replacement for slaughter games and the good sac outlet. Sorry for not linking I'm on my phone
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
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I couldn't agree more with the Darkblast sentiments, and this was after playing it in just two matchups. On paper it seems great, but I found myself rarely using it and wishing it was something else in pretty much every game. Same for the Life from the Loam. While great in theory, I cast it once and it was there more for the Dredge aspect than it was for anything else. I didn't post the sideboard, but I had the full set of Abrupt Decay in there and would rather just have them main to start. I'll try either the Lightning Bolt or the Lightning Axe main and see how that works. You're right that I'm a little removal light at the moment. I'll tweak things around and let you know what sticks. Thanks!
I had a few in for a bit, and I thought they were too slow with not enough impact. Without a reliable way to sacrifice Thug, I worry that it won't get into the 'yard enough, and Stinkweed just seemed to sit around. There were always better things to cast for 3 mana, and when it was dead I rarely wanted to dredge it because I'd rather get more gas. Salvage turns into gas, while Stinkweed may turn into a Vengevine or Bloodghast, but there's no guarantee.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Wowza, lots of response!
Yeah, I was reading the latest batch of stuff on Bridge from Below and Necromancer's Stockpile. They don't seem worth it upon reflection. I still might try Stockpile to be sure, but definitely not many. You're right, I rarely cast Life from the Loam and Burning Inquiry kind of sucks. I actually really like Axe. Early game I use it to dump stuff to the 'yard while taking out their dorks. And it usually can kill Goyf which is nice. I will probably swap the numbers up between the two, though. I can try 3 Salvage as opposed to 4. It's just a numbers thing, right? (In the fifteen cards you reveal with the first three, you likely hit the fourth at some point.) As I said above, I found the dredgers really slow. I never wanted to cast Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp just rarely felt worth it. I might test with them in again, but I'm skeptical.
Any comments on the sideboard? Also, I was thinking about a single Gnaw to the Bone in the main, as I often find that I'm just slightly too slow against some decks and I think it would give more time and help with some matchups (Burn, Scapeshift, most Aggro,)
The Gnaw to the Bone is a meta call, so that's up to you. Remember that the dredgers are combo with Faithless Looting, so when you cast it on T2/or flashback T3, you can dredge 8-10 cards, which is very common for me and not just a fluke. Otherwise, just play test removal and see what you think
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
So you would say that proper thing to do (Usually,) with Faithless Looting is to dredge instead of draw, if possible? I usually don't, but I'll be sure to try it some time soon.
There are circumstances in which I draw instead of dredge late game, and this comes with playing a lot of games with this deck. Examples include when I either need an Abrupt Decay for an approaching LotV ultimate, a third land to cast two creatures, or a zombie to get my Gravecrawlers online to activate Vengevine. There are a lot of things to do, but either way it's up to you. Something I do is if I don't need land and I just need to see more cards in my deck are to draw, flashback Faithless Looting, and decide what to keep. I hope some of this helps. There are certainly too many situations to foster up to even begin naming all of them
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Here's what I played last night:
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodghast
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Vengevine
Instant (6)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (6)
4x Faithless Looting
2x Unburial Rites
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Angel of Despair
2x Darkblast
1x Empyrial Archangel
2x Gifts Ungiven
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
@creamy - I did what you suggested and mainboarded more removal and it definitely helped (and I didn't miss the Darkblasts at all).
Round 1 - Mono-Green Ramp
This was the first time I played against this fellow so I didn't really know what to expect. In Game 1 his mana dorks and enchantments ended up accelerating out a Primeval Titan and Pathrazer of Ulamog. I was one turn behind being able to stabilize and got some Kessig Wolf Run action in my face. Games 2 and 3 though I was able to overwhelm him with Gravecrawlers and Vengevines before he had a chance to set up.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - GW Hexproof
Game 1 he rode a Dryad Arbor and a few Daybreak Coronets to the win before I found any relevant removal. Game 2 he boarded in his Scavenging Oozes and Rest in Peaces to fight my graveyard tricks, so I decided to 'play fair' and just cast a turn one Birds of Paradise which accelerated me into back to back Vengevines on turn three and four. Game 3 we both flooded out hard and he ended up finding a creature before I found anything to dredge or cast. Literally ANYTHING I could have found would have helped, but alas, them's the breaks sometimes.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - Pod (Melira? - In either game I never saw a Melira or Viscera Seer, so I'm assuming, but it could have just been Junk Pod)
Game 1 was probably the craziest game with this deck I've played to date. He understandably doesn't have much graveyard interaction in game 1 so I pretty much have free reign to get things rolling and get my board set up, which I do. Long story short, I get him down to around 5 or so life before he plops down a Kitchen Finks and an Archangel of Thune. Awesome. I kept crashing in with creatures (I had the numbers) but I couldn't ever get over the hump and eventually the Archangel, Finks, and a few-turns-later Scavenging Ooze sealed the deal for him. All in all that first game took 35 minutes. So we shuffled up for the second game and got rolling with around 13 minutes left in the match. Game 2 he ended up getting out a Linvala, Keeper of Silence and a Restoration Angel before I could stabilize and that was that.
0-2 (1-2)
Round 4 - UWR Control
Much like Pod, my opponent had zero ways to profitably interact with my dredging in Game 1. This allowed me to build a board of 3 Hedron Crabs, 3 Vengevines, 1 Bloodghast and 2 Gravecrawlers. Still, he cast 3 Cryptic Commands (tapping my creatures) and flashed back 2 of them with Snapcaster Mage which stretched the game out a bit. But once he was out of Cryptic tricks, I overwhelmed him and swung for the win. Game 2 I switched to a more Gifts-Unburial package and went lighter on the dredging. On turn four I was able to Rites an Iona, Shield of Emeria into play (naming blue) and then follow that up the next turn by Rites-ing an Empyrial Archangel into play. That was enough.
2-0 (2-2)
Takeaways - (1) I wasn't expecting to see Pod and so my sideboard was not too helpful for that (Torpor Orb would have been nice). Also, I have to figure out a way to get rid of an Archangel of Thune. Abrupt Decay doesn't work and Lightning Bolt is too small. Perhaps I toss a Lightning Axe into the mix. (2) My UWR Control opponent misplayed in Game 2 when I Rites'd in the Iona. He had a Path to Exile in his graveyard and a Snapcaster Mage in his hand (with mana to cast) that he could have played targeting the Path to force me to name white instead of blue. He missed it, but I had no clue either because I wasn't paying too much attention to his graveyard. I need to be more aware of those things. (3) As lame as it sounds, GW Hexproof is relevant enough in my meta that I might just have to put a Back to Nature or two in my sideboard for that matchup (maybe in place of the Darkblast?). Otherwise I'm stuck one for one trading my removal with their enchantments and their curve is lower.
Overall though, I was really happy with the deck and the choices. I'm a fan of the Rites package because it allows another line of play mid-to-late game and I think it takes focus off of some of the 'smaller' things in the deck. Hedron Crabs have been all-stars for me allowing me to really dump a LOT of stuff in my graveyard. But those 0/2 walls look pretty innocuous when my opponent can see an Elesh Norn sitting in the graveyard.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
4 vengeviNE
4 Gravecrawler
4 bloodghast
4 lotleth troll
4 tarmogoyf
1 tymaret, the murder king
1 golgari thug
4 birds of paradise
3 stinkweed imps
3 abrupt decay
2 lightning bolt
2 lightning axe
4 faithless looting
Land
4 blood crypt
4 verdant catacombs
1 swamp
2 forest
1 stomping ground
4 overgrown tomb
I'll be back to finish, phone is too frustrating
I took it to Monday Night Magic last night and did okay for my first modern event, I think. I took creamy99's list from a few days ago, except I accidentally removed the 4 Blackcleave Cliffs for 4 Noxious Revival. I realized just now that's how I got the Revivals to fit in :-/, and it makes my mana troubles all the more clear to me.
Regardless, I went 2-2.
Match 1: 0-2 Scapeshift.
Game 1 he basically just did his thing with minimal input on my end and killed me with Scapeshift. I think my only 'mistake' was not having him play out the Scapeshift to make sure he had enough Mountains, but I don't know if I'd really call it a mistake.
Game 2 was similar. I boarded out most of my creature removal for Inquisition of Kozilek, Gnaw to the Bone, and maybe Golgari Charm (not sure if Scapeshift runs many boardwipes or just counters). Things were going okay until he played an Inferno Titan that I didn't have an answer to.
Match 2: 1-2 GB Rock (Goodstuff?)
Game 1: LONG GAME. It took about 35 minutes as I cowered behind some Stinkweed Imps after a Scooze ate my dudes. There were several misplays on my part (double Lightning Bolt on Goyf with Abrupt Decay in hand, dredge for Stinkweed Imp instead of Golgari Thug when I had mana to Thug + Gravecrawler, but not Imp + Crawler, etc.) Mostly nerves.
Game 2: Not as long a game. I think I took out the 2 Darkblast and something else I had mainboard for Abrupt Decay and 2 IoKs. He mulliganed to five looking for Grafdiggers but never found it. I killed him with Lotleth and Vengevines.
Game 3: Stomped by some large Goyfs, never got Abrupt Decay in hand. LotV handled my Imps.
Match 3: 2-0 Scapeshift
Game 1 & 2: Opponent got mana flooded with no finishers. G1 was just double Vengevine on turn 4 + Lotleth Troll, which was nice. Biggest play in G2 was he used 6 Valakut triggers to wipe my board, but based on the ordering a Golgari Thug put a Vengevine on top of my library which I hardcasted for kill.
Match 4: 2-0 Monoblack Vampires
I think this guy is just getting started with modern with mostly cards he already had. A budget deck that ran a lot of targetted removal. Actually made my job easier since he essentially 0-1'd himself due to dredge and vengevine.
All in all, I had a ton of fun. I was nervous going in to the matches but everyone was pretty chill. Got lots of rule questions answered. Annoyed that I had left 4 lands out of my deck since I was running in to mana issues all night. I'm planning on changing up the sideboard based on what I saw around the shop. 2 Scapeshift decks, 2 Storm (1 Ad Nauseum, and just heard of another), RG Tron, and that GB Rock deck. I'm planning on adding either 2x Slaughter Games, and maybe 1x Boil to the sideboard, removing 2x Darkblast and (i think) 1x Creeping Corrosion since I didn't see Affinity.
My biggest problem was not getting my beats fast enough against Scapeshift since I was lacking anything amazing for it in the SB except IoK and sort of Gnaw to the Bone unless I'm missing something. 2nd biggest problem was Scooze. How do you all usually deal with Scapeshift if you don't get off to a blistering pace? If you fear Scooze, do you just hold an Abrupt Decay as best you can?
Round 1 - Junk Gifts
Game one he Raven's Crime'd me twice (thanks!) which got the ball rolling pretty early and he scooped once I had a few Vengevines on the table. Game two I got off to a slow start and he stuck an Elesh Norn that locked things up for him. Game three I fought through a Damnation and returned a Vengevine and hasty Bloodghast to seal the deal.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - Affinity
Game one he landed two Vault Skirges and two Cranial Platings, but Gnaw to the Bone coupled with constantly dredged Stinkweed Imps eventually cleared the board for my Vengevines and Co. to take the game. Game two I should have mulliganed harder for my sideboard hate, but didn't and a turn three Etched Champion followed by a turn four Cranial Plating was enough to move to game three. Game three went to time and he got it in turns with the same game plan as game two. I may have had a chance to do something by Rites-ing back an Elesh, but he had previously exiled my white mana source and I had the wrong color fetch in my hand.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - GW Auras
Game one he got out a Bogle and suited it up, but miscalculated on the combat math and left himself open for lethal on the swingback. Game 2 he landed an early Scavenging Ooze and I didn't draw any removal and that was enough. Game three I Rites'd an Iona into play naming white which effectively shut him down.
2-1 (2-1)
I'm relatively set on the mainboard, however I'm going to be making one small change: -1x Gnaw to the Bone, +1x Mystic Retrieval. I need something to get back the Decays and Bolts that I inevitably end up dredging or milling away and this is the best option I think I have. The sideboard as always is being tweaked and I plan on taking the following list to FNM later this week:
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodghast
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Vengevine
Instant (5)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (7)
4x Faithless Looting
1x Mystic Retrieval
2x Unburial Rites
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Angel of Despair
2x Creeping Corrosion
1x Gnaw to the Bone
1x Mystic Retrieval
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Spellskite
As much as Stony Silence hoses Affinity, with the Mystic Retrieval, I'm going to try relying on the Creeping Corrosion and Rakdos Charms to get there. We'll see if that works. Plus, I don't have to rely on an early white source to get the Silence on board.
Tarmogoyf doesn't seem like it fits. I tried it online and wasn't impressed. We're a combo deck, not an aggro deck, so it doesn't fit.
Pack Rat is definitely a good card, but you have to have the right kind of build for it to function. You want to decrease the number of dead graveyard cards and increase your dredge count so you can continuously hit discard for the rat. Also, increase your land to 21 for consistency purposes since you need to hit 3 mana.
As far as the sideboard goes, most of you seem to be forgetting the sweeper for affinity aka Creeping Corrosion. Disruption is good via Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek. Golgari Charm fits in some lists, and I like Nihil Spellbomb in the mirror and vs Snapcaster decks especially since it helps dredge. Back to Nature is good vs Bogles. Darkblast is amazing since it dredges, but it's only good in certain matchups. A lot of new players try this MB, but once they test, they'll realize that it sucks vs most decks. Side it in vs Affinity and Fae, also vs Twin (sometimes) & UWR (sometimes, depends on the build).
Since I'm too lazy for quotes tonight, here are my recommendations to above posters:
@4554551n, your SB needs tweaking. Increase your number of Rakdos Charm and Golgari Charm. Take out Slaughter Pact. The charms handle every matchup you can think of, and Pact costs an entire turn. We have much more efficient removal than this. I believe this will help your G2/G3 chances of winning the match. Also, your list looks like it inflicts too much damage to yourself between fetch lands, Thoughtseize, and Smallpox. I might try IoK MB instead
@Theflayedone, Fauna Shaman is too slow and always gets sided out. Try either Dregscape Zombie or an extra dredger for more consistency.
@CROTALUS, way to go sir! Only thing I might change is possibly add in a Grisly Salvage or 2, as the digging helps. 29 creatures seems 1-2 too many.
@Smarmius, First off, my SB is for my meta so don't take it as the set in stone way to go. I tested the Noxious Revival route for my Avatar of Woe alternate win condition, but it's also a dead GY card, so I just found it messed with my consistency. As for scapeshift, there's two ways to win. You either have to make yourself faster or what I do when i see scapeshift in my meta is transform my SB and add 4 land destruction spells for instant speed. Kill a mountain already in play before Scapeshift resolves (otherwise the Valakut trigger goes on the stack and resolves since they have priority). This messes up combat math and prevents three damage, which should buy you a turn. Remember six lands for 18 or less life or eight for more than 18 life, so taking out the land to sacrifice prevents them from having enough mountains in play to activate all of their triggers.
Hope everyone has a good week. Leave feedback
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Another important (and probably obvious) thing - the tokens aren't cast, so they do nothing to 'activate' the Vengevines, which to me make PR more of a non-synergistic piece in the deck than I'd prefer.
Saying all of this, I haven't tested with it at all. PR is a powerhouse in the right build. I just don't know if this one takes full advantage of him.
If I'm not mistaken, you can destroy a mountain while the Valakut triggers are on the stack, and if you take them below the 6 Mountains they need then all the triggers will fizzle because of that intervening if clause. I might need to get that clarified by a judge at some point.
How do you all usually deal with Manlands? Just have creatures/Lightning Bolts to block or kill? I was getting beat down by a Treetop Village when I was playing against the BG Rock guy, and it was frustrating. I'm thinking about Putrefy in the SB or Slaughter Pact in the SB if I need that extra removal.
Any thoughts on Svogthos, the Restless Tomb? I'm going to think about it as a 1 of if I'm also running Life from the Loam, but I didn't see anything about it previously in this thread.
@smarmius, if you run Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime is a great alternative to card advantage. The combination is amazing and even better once you test it. I loved it, but it wasn't the direction I wanted to take for my build. I use Tectonic Edge because Ghost Quarter can still let them fetch a basic mountain, which is exactly what you don't want. Not sure on Boil, but I would think that we want to be focusing on Mountains, not Islands. and Fulminator Mage is a little too expensive for my taste.
As for manlands, just chump block. If I'm losing to man lands, I'm not winning the game. The only one I ever struggle vs is Celestial Colonnade, which UWR runs. If they get to that point with that amount of mana, they basically won the game.
@capndeevers, you're spot on with my reasoning.
@4554551n, Creeping Corrosion is designed specifically for Affinity matches. I run Grudges in my SB (2-3 depending on my desires), but they only deal with 2 at a time, 1 if dredged. I run 2 Corrosions so that it takes care of their problems: Ravagers, Blinkmoths, Skirges, and equip cards. With Birds of Paradise, four mana is definitely doable for me, especially digging with Faithless Looting and Grisly Salvage. I usually keep a third land so that casting my stuff isn't an issue. If I don't keep a third land, I'm winning on T3 casting 2 Gravecrawler.
Don't underestimate the charms. Golgari Charm is amazing. Against control, regen saves all of your creatures from most board wipes except Wrath of God. If control taps out T4 casting a sweeper and you regen them, they have no answers and you generally win from the pressure. The -1/-1 is great vs Token and UWR midrange decks. Who cares if our creatures die, recast them next turn! We are a GY deck afterall and 90% of our small creatures come back. Rakdos Charm answers the problematic pieces: Tron, Pod, Affinity, and Twin. Twin and Tron are huge in my meta, so this is perfect. Let Twin go off, then deal damage to each player with each creature and win. Or kill their T3 Tron and set them back. I love charms, best utility part of my SB.
I don't remember who mentioned Slaughter Games, but it's a good card. However, at 4 mana, it's a little mana intensive. We don't want too much interaction with our opponent at 4 mana unless we're going to win the game. Twin has other creatures, Pod can win through creature recursion, and Control has too many different win conditions. Remember we're a combo deck and this is wasting a turn we could be using to recur Vengevines or add fuel to our graveyard. Being a T4/T5 format, the first few turns are essential. Feel free to let me know how it worked for you, but I just didn't find it fast enough for what I was doing.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Modern:
EDH:
Standard: