I personally would replace Vendilion Clique with Brimaz, but I think that your list is good for a pure tempo list. I personally prefer being able to permanently answer stuff though. If you don't land a Geist, your threats can be removed pretty easily with the low amount of permanent-answer counterspells. Because of this I would probably either add a couple of Mana Leaks or a couple extra creatures.
I feel like I may be beating a dead horse here, but I do say this from result oriented experience...
For a build Aggro - Tempo build like this, running Slayers' Stronghold will -win- you games. I considered Eiganjo Castle for a minute until I remembered the Stronghold and realized that it can close out opponents and turn a late-game delver into damage and make Geist just brutal in the mid-game.
Wouldn't Slayers' Stronghold hurt our mana base? this deck is already mana greedy, and Eiganjo Castle is a different story because we can easily swap a plains for the castle. My list is very similar to the one Chaam posted, just that I don't have Vapor Snag but Boros Charm instead, helps me close games faster, protects my permanents and is insane with snapcaster
Black dog- I couldn't agree more. Slayers stronghold is amazing and severely under played. It does hurt with consistency of the mana base but it we'll worth the cost. I have been playing two copies in my Geist of saint tokens deck and have added it to my uwr delver deck. Because there are no r/w or r/b low costed man lands it's tough to get utility out of our lands like midrange g/b lists have. Ronyx Bladewing is right that it isn't great in the opening hand, but it turns all of our beaters into huge threats and helps finish out games. It also makes a late delver draw not so bad.
Because this is the featured thread, I think we should talk about the major points of difference in different builds of WUR delver. The topics I would like to touch on are as follows:
Finally, your mana base- what works and what doesn't.
I was also hoping we could all discuss match ups (good and bad) and how you sideboard.
Theses are some important topics to touch on for anyone building a uwr delver list in my opinion. Let me know if anything else needs to be added. I will be giving my opinion on each topic tomorrow along with detailed notes from my recent testing sessions with my play group. I would love to hear other opinions/results even if they differ from mine. That's how the deck gets better!
Thanks again to everyone helping to make this topic a great featured thread this month.
Because this is the featured thread, I think we should talk about the major points of difference in different builds of WUR delver. The topics I would like to touch on are as follows:
If you're going to run Young Pyromancer, you should consider Familiar's Ruse. I ran a couple in a UR build I tried for a while and always had tokens available to pay for the cost which they replace themselves, or better yet was returning a Snapcaster Mage for extra value
Ronyx Bladewing- That is an AWESOME idea that I have never heard of before. Those are the kind of ideas that can really set your deck apart. Great find. If I ever run a list with Young Pyromancer I will definitely give Familiar's Ruse a try.
Wouldn't Slayers' Stronghold hurt our mana base? this deck is already mana greedy, and Eiganjo Castle is a different story because we can easily swap a plains for the castle.
You run the Stronghold bc it makes you better in the mid to late game which is when, if you can't close out an opponent, they could slip away. It's the one of the reasons I run a Hellkite and an Elspeth in my list (makes my deck better in the mid-late game).
As for Curd...
Re: Pyromancer - I cut Pryomancer after I gave up UR as it was underwhelming and in most games I felt behind. Rarely did Pyromancer get out of hand and Geist is simply better.
Re: Probe - No Pryomancer and I don't play combo so I don't need it. It's a 4 of cantrip that fuels Pyromancer that with him gone, it can be better things. I play around most ***** anyway, so the info gained from a probe, while powerful, isn't a must have.
Re: Remand, Mana Leak and Deprive and Familiar's Ruse. No to Mana Leak. You run too few lands. It's miserable on the draw. Spell Pierce is strictly better in the situations you need it for. Remand because it's awesome. Deprive no because it puts you back and is too cute. Maybe as a SB option since its a hard counter... But Dispel and Swan Song fit the bill and answer most things you need answered post board... Ruse is just too cute.
The mana base... @ 21 lands (including the stronghold) has -never- been a problem save for situations when I should have mulliganed anyway. You need basics though and a set of the Innistrad Lands to fight Choke which gets boarded in a lot now but you can win even after they drop it...
Why are you running 21 lands? Also, I wouldn't run Swan Song in the board. that 2/2 flier can kill all of our threats.
As I promised I will be posting the notes from my recent play testing session. Each day I will post how my matchup went against a different tier 1 or tier 2 decks in modern. I will post at least one matchup a day and, time permitting, two matchups on some days. I don't have full play by plays because it took to long to write and play, but I did take notes for the main plays that won or lost the game. Each deck we played a game on the play and a game on the draw. We then played three post sideboarded games.
Today we have Affinity or Robots.
Match 1
WUR Delver vs Affinity
Matchup- This matchup is similar to that of the WUR midrange deck matchup with affinity in modern in my opinion. The Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt, and Path to Exile are all very good in the early game to slow the robots player down. Also Spell Snare is extremely good because it counters many of their best cards. If you can keep them at bay and keep a threat on board you can win. If the affinity deck gets it's god hand its tough for any deck in modern to beat them. In my experience we are still about 50/50 or 40/60 at worst in game one and we are favored post board.
Game 2- Before side boarding. I mulliganed to 6, but it probably didn't matter. Lost to an opening hand with Darksteel Citadel, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, Blinkmoth Nexus, Etched Champion, and Cranial Plating. I was able to handle the equipped Ornithopter with a Lightning Helix and felt ok about my chances, but the cranial plating on etched champion was tough for me to stop. Actually, I didn't stop it.
Plan- I took out the slower cards that interact later in the game. I also removed the Probes because they typically do damage for the casting cost and the affinity player rarely has much in hand. Remanding their spells typically just means they will immediately cast them again so the remands had to go too. This is one of the easier matchups to side against. Side in your artifact hate and go to town.
Game 3- This was a typical Geist of Saint Traft beating. I was able to draw two copies of Lightning Helix and Path to Exile to clear the way for Geist to do most of the damage. He flooded as much as an affinity player can flood. A Spell Pierce on Cranial Plating ended the chance that they could come back with infect damage.
Overall- We went 3-2 which was about what I had expected. This matchup can go either way, but I do feel that we are favored post board. As stated earlier, early removal is key and card advantage is another key to this matchup. It is almost always a race. If you see a ton of Affinity/Robots in your meta you can add a Shatterstorm to your sideboard for even bigger blow outs.
Tomorrow I will go over the G/B Rock matchup. Please let me know how you feel about this matchup, and tips for playing against affinity with the WUR Delver tempo deck, and/or any other sideboard options I didn't discuss. Thanks for reading!
Bladewing- The Innistrad lands are another great point that people often do not think about adding to their deck. Chokes can be devastating and are all over the place. I play both Sulfur Falls and Glacial Fortress in my deck and I have had very few times were the buddy lands have been a problem.
Thanks again for always touching on the intricate points of the deck that can be the difference between a decent deck and a competitive deck.
Why are you running 21 lands? Also, I wouldn't run Swan Song in the board. that 2/2 flier can kill all of our threats.
Because I want to consistently be able to cast Geist on turn 3. It would be 20 but I run Slayer's Stronghold and thats a deadland mana fixing wise... So 21.
I personally have been fine on 19 lands. While there are some consistency issues, I think that it works well enough. Of course, I am not running 4 mana cards like Chadra so that might be a part of it.
Re: Swan Song and the fact its 2/2 Token can kill most our threats... The kind of decks you board in Swan Song for (dedicated combo), are the ones where if you lose, it won't be b/c of a 2/2 token.
While this is true, it does buy them a couple of turns or a free land if you don't have burn for the bird, which allows decks like Storm to get another chance
After continued testing with Affinity, I am confidant in stating that we are slight favorites in the matchup in game one and our advantage grows post board. This is good new since Affinity still makes up a good portion of the meta. Now on to the next foe- The Rock.
Testing results from G/B "Rock"
Matchup- This matchup is a grindy one. Their card quality/power is slightly higher than ours on average so we have to have the card advantage to win. An early threat helps greatly as they typically do themselves early damage and then make up life later in the game with Scaveging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, and Obstinate Balooth. Any deck that plays Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, and Dark Confidant is going to be a tough matchup for our Geist of Saint Traft. Most also play a Devour Flesh and/or Drown in Sorrow in their sideboard which also cause us problems. I believe this matchup is very close to a 50/50 matchup in the first game, but that's probably just wishful thinking. It's probably more like 45/55. I have several cards in my sideboard for green decks in general because they typically can be a tough color (Pod, Rock, etc) for our deck. Depending on your sideboard, the second game will also probably be close to 50/50 but can go in our favor with cards like Mirran Crusader, Sword of Feast and Famine, Threads of Disloyalty, Swerve, and Engineered Explosives[/card].
Game 1- On the draw. Kept a two land opening hand and didn't draw another for several turns. He played a Courser of Kruphix on turn three and an Obstinate Balooth on turn four. He proceeded to beat me down with two treetop villages and the balooth. Pretty one sided game.
Game 2- Before sideboard. I played a turn one delver. The opponent cast thoughtseize and took my snapcaster mage. No problem though, I just drew one off the top of the deck. Delver flipped and I began the beat down, however it didn't last long. He played a Liliana of the Veil on turn three to kill my Delver. A Snapcaster, flashback bolt killed Liliana. I then landed a Chandra, Pyromaster on the next turn. He cast a Tarmogoyf and Scaveging Ooze, but Chandra was able to use her zero ability to get a Path to Exile on the goyf and another bolt was able to clear the board. I cast a Geist of Saint Traft and had Boros Charm in hand. He top decked a couple of lands and the Geist ended the game.
Sideboard:
In- 1x Sword of Feast and Famine, 2x Engineered Explosives, 1x Mirran Crusader. Possible- Sowing Salt, Wear/Tear for different builds.
Out- 1x Electrolyze, 1x Geist of Saint Traft, 1x Sword of Fire and Ice, 1x Gitaxian Probe
Plan- Switching the swords was obvious. Engineered Explosives on two is extremely devastating to the rock deck so both of those came in. Mirran Crusader is a house vs the rock and he is a personal favorite of mine so I always have one in the board. The plan post board stays the same. Try to keep the pressure on them, making them answer your threats and out card advantage them.
Game 4- This game started off similar to game three. I landed an early lavamancer and delver. A Drown in Sorrow threatened to end my advantage, but I had a Spell Pierce to counter. The game turned into a grind fest. Several removal spells later for both of us, and the board consisted of a flipped delver on my side and a scaveging ooze on his side. I top decked and was able to cast a Mirran Crusader which kept his 5/5 Ooze at bay. I landed a Sword of Feast and Famine and equipped to the Delver. He cast a Tarmogoyf, but Without an Abrupt Decay, the flying insectile aberration wielding a sword was enough to get the win. This one could have gone either way.
Overall- We went 3-1. However, this is a tough matchup and, like affinity, can go either way. Although most of the games were won by the deck that was able to be on offense, all of the games played out to a point where we were nearly top decking. This is basically exactly where the G/B deck wants to get and it is very good at getting there. Chandra, Pyromaster was extremely good in this matchup as was Grim Lavamancer.
Please let me know how your matchup goes against "the rock" with your WUR delver deck and keep on posting! Also, let's hear what everyone thinks our the best and worst matchups for the WUR Delver/Geist archetype. If there are any matchups you would like me to test and write about, just post here and I will do so. Thanks for reading!
Tomorrow I will switch gears from the midrange/aggro decks and write about testing against UR Twin Exarch.
Hello guys, I'm new to this thread, but I recently changed my UR Delver into URW and went into PTQ with it. I end up with 5-3 record ending up in top32. Overall I really like how the deck runs, and lost only to the decks that are our really bad match ups even without the splash.
So round 1:
I played against UR Delver/Fae (Jeff Hoogland version) (2:1)
Round 2:
vs Soul Sisters (2:0)
Round 3:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I had no chance against him, after side he had a lot of destroy land spells, what was brutal.
Round 4:
vs Griselbrand Reanimator (2:1)
Round 5:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I think that's just our worst match up, I had no chance at all.
Round 6:
vs Death and Taxes (2:1)
Round 7:
vs Scapeshift (2:1)
Round 8:
vs Mono Green Infect (0:2)
Here at least I was felling like I have some chances to win, game 2 I almost had him, but then he top decked and I lost.
So according to my experience at this PTQ I will be putting 2xtimely reinforcement in my sideboard in a place of molten rains, cos they not good Blood Moon replacements.
Hello guys, I'm new to this thread, but I recently changed my UR Delver into URW and went into PTQ with it. I end up with 5-3 record ending up in top32. Overall I really like how the deck runs, and lost only to the decks that are our really bad match ups even without the splash.
So round 1:
I played against UR Delver/Fae (Jeff Hoogland version) (2:1)
Round 2:
vs Soul Sisters (2:0)
Round 3:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I had no chance against him, after side he had a lot of destroy land spells, what was brutal.
Round 4:
vs Griselbrand Reanimator (2:1)
Round 5:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I think that's just our worst match up, I had no chance at all.
Round 6:
vs Death and Taxes (2:1)
Round 7:
vs Scapeshift (2:1)
Round 8:
vs Mono Green Infect (0:2)
Here at least I was felling like I have some chances to win, game 2 I almost had him, but then he top decked and I lost.
So according to my experience at this PTQ I will be putting 2xtimely reinforcement in my sideboard in a place of molten rains, cos they not good Blood Moon replacements.
I'd probably play a 4th Path instead of a Vapor Snag and replace the other Snag with a Spell Snare or Electrolyze. Other than that, your list seems pretty good.
Hello guys, I'm new to this thread, but I recently changed my UR Delver into URW and went into PTQ with it. I end up with 5-3 record ending up in top32. Overall I really like how the deck runs, and lost only to the decks that are our really bad match ups even without the splash.
So round 1:
I played against UR Delver/Fae (Jeff Hoogland version) (2:1)
Round 2:
vs Soul Sisters (2:0)
Round 3:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I had no chance against him, after side he had a lot of destroy land spells, what was brutal.
Round 4:
vs Griselbrand Reanimator (2:1)
Round 5:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I think that's just our worst match up, I had no chance at all.
Round 6:
vs Death and Taxes (2:1)
Round 7:
vs Scapeshift (2:1)
Round 8:
vs Mono Green Infect (0:2)
Here at least I was felling like I have some chances to win, game 2 I almost had him, but then he top decked and I lost.
So according to my experience at this PTQ I will be putting 2xtimely reinforcement in my sideboard in a place of molten rains, cos they not good Blood Moon replacements.
I like your build. My build is very similar, but has a little more burn and a little less permission/counter spells. I agree with Valnarach. I have always felt that Vapor Snag is a little weak when you have access to Path to Exile and Lightning Helix. I would also remove a Mana Leak or two and add another Spell Snare, another Lightning Helix, or a Pillar of Flame. However, if you prefer a more controlling version then I think you hit the nail on the head here.
If you see a ton of burn in your area, I would just play three Leyline of Sanctitys in your sideboard. Lightning Helix is also great card against burn. I'm sure you already know these things, but I thought I would mention them.
I too tried Molten Rain for a second and just didn't like it.
I am curious how Ajani Vengeant has played for you thus far. I have a Chandra, Pyromaster in my build and she has been stupendous. I have tried a Ral Zarek as well and now have two Chandra, Pyromasters in the deck. I have thought about adding an Ajani Vengeant so I am very interested to see how he has performed for you thus far.
Thanks for posting your list and your results. I would love to hear how your further playing/testing goes once you add the timely reinforcements.
I'd probably play a 4th Path instead of a Vapor Snag and replace the other Snag with a Spell Snare or Electrolyze. Other than that, your list seems pretty good.
I like your build. My build is very similar, but has a little more burn and a little less permission/counter spells. I agree with Valnarach. I have always felt that Vapor Snag is a little weak when you have access to Path to Exile and Lightning Helix. I would also remove a Mana Leak or two and add another Spell Snare, another Lightning Helix, or a Pillar of Flame. However, if you prefer a more controlling version then I think you hit the nail on the head here.
If you see a ton of burn in your area, I would just play three Leyline of Sanctitys in your sideboard. Lightning Helix is also great card against burn. I'm sure you already know these things, but I thought I would mention them.
I too tried Molten Rain for a second and just didn't like it.
I am curious how Ajani Vengeant has played for you thus far. I have a Chandra, Pyromaster in my build and she has been stupendous. I have tried a Ral Zarek as well and now have two Chandra, Pyromasters in the deck. I have thought about adding an Ajani Vengeant so I am very interested to see how he has performed for you thus far.
Thanks for posting your list and your results. I would love to hear how your further playing/testing goes once you add the timely reinforcements.
Hey, thank you for replays.
I really liked vapor snag at match-ups like blue moon, I had a game it was at gp boston on a side event, where my opponent had game one double shackles in play, I couldn't play any creature but snapcaster, which I'd snag 4 times after he took control of it, and i had Keranos in play which he bounced with cryptic like 4 times, it was a fun game and vapor snag was mvp in it. This situation will happen very rarely though. Main reason I am keeping vapor snag over more burn spells is trouble creatures, like griselbrand, pumped up affinity creature, germ token or basically anything that you can't just burn out. I use to had problems with mid range decks, and then I start to play snag, which gave me much more options, and I can't remember a game when I thought of it as a dead card. So basically they got same purpose as a path in my deck, just I don't always want to give my opp an extra land, so for me 3-2 split looks good.
The amount of counter spells just fits my game style, I play much more comfortable having them in my deck, and maybe it makes me a little slower, but I'm fine with it, I may manipulate the numbers of mana leaks and spell snares though, cos that may be a good thing.
Leyline was the card which I first thought of, but I just can't sacrifice 3rd sideboard slot for burn and the rack decks, cos as for now they are minor in modern meta. So I think that timely reinforcements which you can use in many more match ups, will be better card overall. And anyway in my opinion if you won't have Leyline of Sanctity in your opening hand then it's much worse card than timely at least in our deck.
I don't know about Ajani Vengeant since I had it strictly against controlish kind of decks, which I haven't played against in this PTQ, but for now I'm almost sure I will cut him off. He's just to slow, and in many cases works only as a 4 mana Lightning Helix + gets a little bit of removal attention from your opponent, so I think it's not worth it. I will either get back to Keranos, God of Storms which is not perfect, and is slow for our deck to, but at least he can win games on his own, or maybe mainboard Batterskull, to be honest Ajani spot gives me headache since PTQ has ended, I just can't figure out what card would be a perfect fit for it. I should try Chandra as you do, but I will w8 for a smaller event to test her out.
I will be participating in PTQ next week, and week after another, so I will try to post reports from them as well.
Oh and it's not like there's a lot of burn decks in my meta, there wasn't many in that PTQ, I was just unlucky to be paired against both of the good players who were running them( they both top 8ed )
P.S. There was a mistake in my decklist, I was running 2x Spell Snare and 1x Spell Pierce not the opposite
That would be great if you would post your results from the PTQ again. You make very valid points about the Vapor Snags. It is very good against some of our worst matchups. I will have to test it. The most important aspect of deck building/playing in Modern is being completely comfortable in the deck your playing and practicing a ton with the deck against every matchup. It sounds like you have a very good grasp on your build and you are a very good player with your build. I haven't played against a lot of Blue Moon as I don't see that deck very often in my area. I need to test more against that deck just to see how the matchup plays out against my build.
I love Chandra, Pyromaster in a more burn oriented build, but she would probably not fit great into a build with a high number of counter spells. I also agree with you about Leyline of Sanctity. I had three in my board, but just didn't see enough burn or 8 rack to give up 3 sideboard slots. Timely reinforcements sounds like a great option.
Thanks again for the post and best of luck in the next PTQ! I can't wait to read about your results.
I've been playing with 2 Boros Charm instead of 2 Spell Pierce. Both work very well but Spell Pierce is really only good in 2 conditions: In the first 4 turns and if you're on the play. Boros Charm on the other hand is good when I want to race (always) and helps my match up against decks with sweeper spells. This could change though if I think they'll be a lot of combo there.
SB wise it's much the same apart from adding in Smash to Smithereens for batterskull (pretty much the only card the deck straight up loses too).
I'm playing Elspeth, Knight-Errant over Chandra Pyromaster and Ajani Vengeant because, it makes all my other creatures collectively better + can win games on it's own. That to me is what I want a 4 drop to be. Chandra was great against the UWR mirror but I'm already good against that MU. Ajani Vengeant most times ended up like a Warleaders Helix.
Vapor Snags = bc when you need more removal / tempo cards, theirs little better right now. I bring these in against anything aggro based. Also will put some in against decks that play lots of removal (Tron, UW, etc). Very maindeckable.
Grim Lavamancer = When I need A: more creature based removal + when I need to straight up race a deck, this card comes in. So for affinity, merfolk and then against decks like scapeshift to try to up the odds of dropping a turn 1 play (delver, serum, lavamancer).
Aven Mindscensor = Pretty self explanatory. Can be awful on the draw though against Pod.
Spellskite = I always run 1-2 of these in my sb. Always useful.
Timely Reinforcements = Used to be batterskull back in April. Come May it was Timely. Simply better and geared more towards how the deck runs.
Dispel = Some ppl run Counterflux. On less than 24 lands, I don't want Counterflux. Dispel is easier to keep up + harder to play around. It counters lightning bolt and cryptic command which is why it's here.
Swan Song = Some people are baffled by this card as it gives your opp a 2/2 flying token that kills most your threats... But the fact is against Scapeshift and Ad Nauseum, you don't lose to the 2/2 Bird Token. It's harder to play around than Negate. Easier to double cast it w. Snapcaster. Comes in for: "Oh crap, I need a counter or I lose.".dec
Combust = Is like an Abrupt Decay against the right decks. Comes in against UWR, UW, UR Twin, UWR Twin, GW, Merfolk, Soul *****sters and UR Delver.
Pyroclasm = Yes, Anger of the Gods is better. But it's also greedier and I've never had a situation where pyroclasm wasn't enough to do the job.
Smash to Smithereens = Because losing to Batterskull sucks and you need to win by getting your opponent to zero life. Saw this in Levy's burn list and thought it was way better than Wear//Tear... which good for sure but I'm more focused on being aggressive and d-a-m-a-g-e.
Cards that used to be in but are not now / might come back...
Relic of Progenitus = More of a 'be on the safe side' card. Very good in some match ups. A must have in others.
Hibernation = Card won me games in PTQ Leipzig. It's really good... But I'm not sure if it's worth it atm.
Anyway... If I do well, I'll post a report.
PTQ Prague - top 8
PTQ Leipzig - top 8
PTQ Linz - 9th
PTQ Prague no.2 - ???
This is the best post yet! Awesome explanations about each card. The more I hear about Vapor Snag the more I want to give it a try. I will definitely be testing a couple in my build (possibly sideboard).
I tried Elspeth, Knight Errant and she was awesome when I was ahead, but seemed a little lackluster when behind. However, that can be said about many cards. Also it was the only double white spell in the deck so I decided to take it back out. I have been playing around with Ajani, Caller of the Pride so I might give Elspeth a try again if he doesn't pan out.
I also agree with what you said about Swan Song. It may be bad against aggro/midrange decks, BUT your not siding it in against aggro/midrange decks. Against the decks you are siding it in against, it is extremely good and the 2/2 flier will not be enough for them to win. I like it.
I have run Hibernation in my sideboard before as well. If the Mono Green Devotion/Stompy decks become more prevelant I would suggest adding it back in. It also does some real damage to the Rock decks in a tempo style game.
All in all this is my favorite build I have seen yet. It appears to be fast enough to race and has enough permission/top end to win the long game if it really has too. Great deck and best of luck in PTQ Prague no.2!
I've been playing with 2 Boros Charm instead of 2 Spell Pierce. Both work very well but Spell Pierce is really only good in 2 conditions: In the first 4 turns and if you're on the play. Boros Charm on the other hand is good when I want to race (always) and helps my match up against decks with sweeper spells. This could change though if I think they'll be a lot of combo there.
SB wise it's much the same apart from adding in Smash to Smithereens for batterskull (pretty much the only card the deck straight up loses too).
I'm playing Elspeth, Knight-Errant over Chandra Pyromaster and Ajani Vengeant because, it makes all my other creatures collectively better + can win games on it's own. That to me is what I want a 4 drop to be. Chandra was great against the UWR mirror but I'm already good against that MU. Ajani Vengeant most times ended up like a Warleaders Helix.
Vapor Snags = bc when you need more removal / tempo cards, theirs little better right now. I bring these in against anything aggro based. Also will put some in against decks that play lots of removal (Tron, UW, etc). Very maindeckable.
Grim Lavamancer = When I need A: more creature based removal + when I need to straight up race a deck, this card comes in. So for affinity, merfolk and then against decks like scapeshift to try to up the odds of dropping a turn 1 play (delver, serum, lavamancer).
Aven Mindscensor = Pretty self explanatory. Can be awful on the draw though against Pod.
Spellskite = I always run 1-2 of these in my sb. Always useful.
Timely Reinforcements = Used to be batterskull back in April. Come May it was Timely. Simply better and geared more towards how the deck runs.
Dispel = Some ppl run Counterflux. On less than 24 lands, I don't want Counterflux. Dispel is easier to keep up + harder to play around. It counters lightning bolt and cryptic command which is why it's here.
Swan Song = Some people are baffled by this card as it gives your opp a 2/2 flying token that kills most your threats... But the fact is against Scapeshift and Ad Nauseum, you don't lose to the 2/2 Bird Token. It's harder to play around than Negate. Easier to double cast it w. Snapcaster. Comes in for: "Oh crap, I need a counter or I lose.".dec
Combust = Is like an Abrupt Decay against the right decks. Comes in against UWR, UW, UR Twin, UWR Twin, GW, Merfolk, Soul *****sters and UR Delver.
Pyroclasm = Yes, Anger of the Gods is better. But it's also greedier and I've never had a situation where pyroclasm wasn't enough to do the job.
Smash to Smithereens = Because losing to Batterskull sucks and you need to win by getting your opponent to zero life. Saw this in Levy's burn list and thought it was way better than Wear//Tear... which good for sure but I'm more focused on being aggressive and d-a-m-a-g-e.
Cards that used to be in but are not now / might come back...
Relic of Progenitus = More of a 'be on the safe side' card. Very good in some match ups. A must have in others.
Hibernation = Card won me games in PTQ Leipzig. It's really good... But I'm not sure if it's worth it atm.
Anyway... If I do well, I'll post a report.
PTQ Prague - top 8
PTQ Leipzig - top 8
PTQ Linz - 9th
PTQ Prague no.2 - ???
This is the best post yet! Awesome explanations about each card. The more I hear about Vapor Snag the more I want to give it a try. I will definitely be testing a couple in my build (possibly sideboard).
I tried Elspeth, Knight Errant and she was awesome when I was ahead, but seemed a little lackluster when behind. However, that can be said about many cards. Also it was the only double white spell in the deck so I decided to take it back out. I have been playing around with Ajani, Caller of the Pride so I might give Elspeth a try again if he doesn't pan out.
I also agree with what you said about Swan Song. It may be bad against aggro/midrange decks, BUT your not siding it in against aggro/midrange decks. Against the decks you are siding it in against, it is extremely good and the 2/2 flier will not be enough for them to win. I like it.
I have run Hibernation in my sideboard before as well. If the Mono Green Devotion/Stompy decks become more prevelant I would suggest adding it back in. It also does some real damage to the Rock decks in a tempo style game.
All in all this is my favorite build I have seen yet. It appears to be fast enough to race and has enough permission/top end to win the long game if it really has too. Great deck and best of luck in PTQ Prague no.2!
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Glad to help.
I personally would replace Vendilion Clique with Brimaz, but I think that your list is good for a pure tempo list. I personally prefer being able to permanently answer stuff though. If you don't land a Geist, your threats can be removed pretty easily with the low amount of permanent-answer counterspells. Because of this I would probably either add a couple of Mana Leaks or a couple extra creatures.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Wouldn't Slayers' Stronghold hurt our mana base? this deck is already mana greedy, and Eiganjo Castle is a different story because we can easily swap a plains for the castle. My list is very similar to the one Chaam posted, just that I don't have Vapor Snag but Boros Charm instead, helps me close games faster, protects my permanents and is insane with snapcaster
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
Young Pyromancer or not, why?
Gitaxian Probe, must have in the deck or not powerful enough?
Remand or Mana Leak? Or Deprive?
Finally, your mana base- what works and what doesn't.
I was also hoping we could all discuss match ups (good and bad) and how you sideboard.
Theses are some important topics to touch on for anyone building a uwr delver list in my opinion. Let me know if anything else needs to be added. I will be giving my opinion on each topic tomorrow along with detailed notes from my recent testing sessions with my play group. I would love to hear other opinions/results even if they differ from mine. That's how the deck gets better!
Thanks again to everyone helping to make this topic a great featured thread this month.
For my list, I want to be holding up a counterspell on turn 2. However, my turn 1 is open. Because of this I prefer Grim Lavamancer.
Must have with Young Pyromancer, not good enough without it.
Deprive is an interesting idea. I'll look into that. However, I prefer Remand to Mana Leak.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
Why are you running 21 lands? Also, I wouldn't run Swan Song in the board. that 2/2 flier can kill all of our threats.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Today we have Affinity or Robots.
Match 1
WUR Delver vs Affinity
Matchup- This matchup is similar to that of the WUR midrange deck matchup with affinity in modern in my opinion. The Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt, and Path to Exile are all very good in the early game to slow the robots player down. Also Spell Snare is extremely good because it counters many of their best cards. If you can keep them at bay and keep a threat on board you can win. If the affinity deck gets it's god hand its tough for any deck in modern to beat them. In my experience we are still about 50/50 or 40/60 at worst in game one and we are favored post board.
Game 1- On the play. Had a great draw against this deck with Delver of Secrets, Spell Snare, and Lightning Bolt. I was able to flip the delver on turn two and countered a Cranial Plating. I bolted a Vault Skirge and was able to get through for most of the damage with Delver. I took some damage from a Master of Etherium powered by a Springleaf drum, Memnite, and Darksteel Citadel. A Path to Exile on the Master of Etherium and a Snapcaster Mage with a flashback Lightning Bolt finished the game.
Game 2- Before side boarding. I mulliganed to 6, but it probably didn't matter. Lost to an opening hand with Darksteel Citadel, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, Blinkmoth Nexus, Etched Champion, and Cranial Plating. I was able to handle the equipped Ornithopter with a Lightning Helix and felt ok about my chances, but the cranial plating on etched champion was tough for me to stop. Actually, I didn't stop it.
Sideboard:
In- 2x Stony Silence, 2x Wear/Tear, 2x Engineered Explosives, 1x Runed Halo
Out- 2x Remand, 1x Ral Zarek, 1x Chandra, Pyromaster, 3x Gitaxian Probe
Plan- I took out the slower cards that interact later in the game. I also removed the Probes because they typically do damage for the casting cost and the affinity player rarely has much in hand. Remanding their spells typically just means they will immediately cast them again so the remands had to go too. This is one of the easier matchups to side against. Side in your artifact hate and go to town.
Game 3- This was a typical Geist of Saint Traft beating. I was able to draw two copies of Lightning Helix and Path to Exile to clear the way for Geist to do most of the damage. He flooded as much as an affinity player can flood. A Spell Pierce on Cranial Plating ended the chance that they could come back with infect damage.
Game 4- The opponent was off to a slower than usual start with only a Signal Pest and land. He then added a Vault Skirge, Archbound Ravanger, Cranial Plating, and Steel Overseer over the second, third and fourth turns. I too was off to a slow start and was flooding slightly. I had a Grim Lavamancer out early that was there to pick off the small stuff, but in this case there were no Memnite, Ornithopter, etc to pick off. I top decked an Engineered Explosives set on "2" that devastated his board and then a Wear/Tear a turn later to ensure the victory with Geist of Saint Traft and Snapcaster Mage attaching for damage.
Game 5- This game went similarly to game 2 above. He got off to a fast start and had a second turn Etched Champion off of a Mox Opal, Memnite, Inkmoth Nexus, and Darksteel Citadel. I was able to stall the game a little bit, but never drew the Runed Halo, or Engineered Explosives to deal with the etched champion.
Overall- We went 3-2 which was about what I had expected. This matchup can go either way, but I do feel that we are favored post board. As stated earlier, early removal is key and card advantage is another key to this matchup. It is almost always a race. If you see a ton of Affinity/Robots in your meta you can add a Shatterstorm to your sideboard for even bigger blow outs.
Tomorrow I will go over the G/B Rock matchup. Please let me know how you feel about this matchup, and tips for playing against affinity with the WUR Delver tempo deck, and/or any other sideboard options I didn't discuss. Thanks for reading!
Thanks again for always touching on the intricate points of the deck that can be the difference between a decent deck and a competitive deck.
I personally have been fine on 19 lands. While there are some consistency issues, I think that it works well enough. Of course, I am not running 4 mana cards like Chadra so that might be a part of it.
While this is true, it does buy them a couple of turns or a free land if you don't have burn for the bird, which allows decks like Storm to get another chance
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If there weren't so many Blood Moons floating around in my meta, this would be pretty fun to play.
Testing results from G/B "Rock"
Matchup- This matchup is a grindy one. Their card quality/power is slightly higher than ours on average so we have to have the card advantage to win. An early threat helps greatly as they typically do themselves early damage and then make up life later in the game with Scaveging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, and Obstinate Balooth. Any deck that plays Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, and Dark Confidant is going to be a tough matchup for our Geist of Saint Traft. Most also play a Devour Flesh and/or Drown in Sorrow in their sideboard which also cause us problems. I believe this matchup is very close to a 50/50 matchup in the first game, but that's probably just wishful thinking. It's probably more like 45/55. I have several cards in my sideboard for green decks in general because they typically can be a tough color (Pod, Rock, etc) for our deck. Depending on your sideboard, the second game will also probably be close to 50/50 but can go in our favor with cards like Mirran Crusader, Sword of Feast and Famine, Threads of Disloyalty, Swerve, and Engineered Explosives[/card].
Game 1- On the draw. Kept a two land opening hand and didn't draw another for several turns. He played a Courser of Kruphix on turn three and an Obstinate Balooth on turn four. He proceeded to beat me down with two treetop villages and the balooth. Pretty one sided game.
Game 2- Before sideboard. I played a turn one delver. The opponent cast thoughtseize and took my snapcaster mage. No problem though, I just drew one off the top of the deck. Delver flipped and I began the beat down, however it didn't last long. He played a Liliana of the Veil on turn three to kill my Delver. A Snapcaster, flashback bolt killed Liliana. I then landed a Chandra, Pyromaster on the next turn. He cast a Tarmogoyf and Scaveging Ooze, but Chandra was able to use her zero ability to get a Path to Exile on the goyf and another bolt was able to clear the board. I cast a Geist of Saint Traft and had Boros Charm in hand. He top decked a couple of lands and the Geist ended the game.
Sideboard:
In- 1x Sword of Feast and Famine, 2x Engineered Explosives, 1x Mirran Crusader. Possible- Sowing Salt, Wear/Tear for different builds.
Out- 1x Electrolyze, 1x Geist of Saint Traft, 1x Sword of Fire and Ice, 1x Gitaxian Probe
Plan- Switching the swords was obvious. Engineered Explosives on two is extremely devastating to the rock deck so both of those came in. Mirran Crusader is a house vs the rock and he is a personal favorite of mine so I always have one in the board. The plan post board stays the same. Try to keep the pressure on them, making them answer your threats and out card advantage them.
Game 3- On the draw. Grim Lavamancer was the all star in this game. Lavamancer landed on turn one with a Delver on turn two. Grim Lavamancer was able to clear an early Dark Confidant, an Couser of Kruphix (with help from a bolt), and a Liliana of the Veil on 1 loyalty. Geist of Saint Traft was able to beat down with a clear path from Grim Lavamancer.
Game 4- This game started off similar to game three. I landed an early lavamancer and delver. A Drown in Sorrow threatened to end my advantage, but I had a Spell Pierce to counter. The game turned into a grind fest. Several removal spells later for both of us, and the board consisted of a flipped delver on my side and a scaveging ooze on his side. I top decked and was able to cast a Mirran Crusader which kept his 5/5 Ooze at bay. I landed a Sword of Feast and Famine and equipped to the Delver. He cast a Tarmogoyf, but Without an Abrupt Decay, the flying insectile aberration wielding a sword was enough to get the win. This one could have gone either way.
Overall- We went 3-1. However, this is a tough matchup and, like affinity, can go either way. Although most of the games were won by the deck that was able to be on offense, all of the games played out to a point where we were nearly top decking. This is basically exactly where the G/B deck wants to get and it is very good at getting there. Chandra, Pyromaster was extremely good in this matchup as was Grim Lavamancer.
Please let me know how your matchup goes against "the rock" with your WUR delver deck and keep on posting! Also, let's hear what everyone thinks our the best and worst matchups for the WUR Delver/Geist archetype. If there are any matchups you would like me to test and write about, just post here and I will do so. Thanks for reading!
Tomorrow I will switch gears from the midrange/aggro decks and write about testing against UR Twin Exarch.
So round 1:
I played against UR Delver/Fae (Jeff Hoogland version) (2:1)
Round 2:
vs Soul Sisters (2:0)
Round 3:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I had no chance against him, after side he had a lot of destroy land spells, what was brutal.
Round 4:
vs Griselbrand Reanimator (2:1)
Round 5:
vs Rb Burn (0:2)
I think that's just our worst match up, I had no chance at all.
Round 6:
vs Death and Taxes (2:1)
Round 7:
vs Scapeshift (2:1)
Round 8:
vs Mono Green Infect (0:2)
Here at least I was felling like I have some chances to win, game 2 I almost had him, but then he top decked and I lost.
So according to my experience at this PTQ I will be putting 2xtimely reinforcement in my sideboard in a place of molten rains, cos they not good Blood Moon replacements.
My deck was as fallowed:
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Ajani Vengeant
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
2x Vapor Snag
3x Path to Exile
1x Electrolyze
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
3x Mana Leak
3x Remand
4x Serum Visions
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Arid Mesa
3x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Relic of Progrenitus
1x Vedalken Shackles
1x Batterskull
1x Spellskite
2x Combust
1x Wear//Tear
1x Shattering Spree ( I just didn't had 2nd Wear//Tear, but I think that it's fine.)
2x Counterflux
2x Molten Rain
vs
I'd probably play a 4th Path instead of a Vapor Snag and replace the other Snag with a Spell Snare or Electrolyze. Other than that, your list seems pretty good.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I like your build. My build is very similar, but has a little more burn and a little less permission/counter spells. I agree with Valnarach. I have always felt that Vapor Snag is a little weak when you have access to Path to Exile and Lightning Helix. I would also remove a Mana Leak or two and add another Spell Snare, another Lightning Helix, or a Pillar of Flame. However, if you prefer a more controlling version then I think you hit the nail on the head here.
If you see a ton of burn in your area, I would just play three Leyline of Sanctitys in your sideboard. Lightning Helix is also great card against burn. I'm sure you already know these things, but I thought I would mention them.
I too tried Molten Rain for a second and just didn't like it.
I am curious how Ajani Vengeant has played for you thus far. I have a Chandra, Pyromaster in my build and she has been stupendous. I have tried a Ral Zarek as well and now have two Chandra, Pyromasters in the deck. I have thought about adding an Ajani Vengeant so I am very interested to see how he has performed for you thus far.
Thanks for posting your list and your results. I would love to hear how your further playing/testing goes once you add the timely reinforcements.
Hey, thank you for replays.
I really liked vapor snag at match-ups like blue moon, I had a game it was at gp boston on a side event, where my opponent had game one double shackles in play, I couldn't play any creature but snapcaster, which I'd snag 4 times after he took control of it, and i had Keranos in play which he bounced with cryptic like 4 times, it was a fun game and vapor snag was mvp in it. This situation will happen very rarely though. Main reason I am keeping vapor snag over more burn spells is trouble creatures, like griselbrand, pumped up affinity creature, germ token or basically anything that you can't just burn out. I use to had problems with mid range decks, and then I start to play snag, which gave me much more options, and I can't remember a game when I thought of it as a dead card. So basically they got same purpose as a path in my deck, just I don't always want to give my opp an extra land, so for me 3-2 split looks good.
The amount of counter spells just fits my game style, I play much more comfortable having them in my deck, and maybe it makes me a little slower, but I'm fine with it, I may manipulate the numbers of mana leaks and spell snares though, cos that may be a good thing.
Leyline was the card which I first thought of, but I just can't sacrifice 3rd sideboard slot for burn and the rack decks, cos as for now they are minor in modern meta. So I think that timely reinforcements which you can use in many more match ups, will be better card overall. And anyway in my opinion if you won't have Leyline of Sanctity in your opening hand then it's much worse card than timely at least in our deck.
I don't know about Ajani Vengeant since I had it strictly against controlish kind of decks, which I haven't played against in this PTQ, but for now I'm almost sure I will cut him off. He's just to slow, and in many cases works only as a 4 mana Lightning Helix + gets a little bit of removal attention from your opponent, so I think it's not worth it. I will either get back to Keranos, God of Storms which is not perfect, and is slow for our deck to, but at least he can win games on his own, or maybe mainboard Batterskull, to be honest Ajani spot gives me headache since PTQ has ended, I just can't figure out what card would be a perfect fit for it. I should try Chandra as you do, but I will w8 for a smaller event to test her out.
I will be participating in PTQ next week, and week after another, so I will try to post reports from them as well.
Oh and it's not like there's a lot of burn decks in my meta, there wasn't many in that PTQ, I was just unlucky to be paired against both of the good players who were running them( they both top 8ed )
P.S. There was a mistake in my decklist, I was running 2x Spell Snare and 1x Spell Pierce not the opposite
That would be great if you would post your results from the PTQ again. You make very valid points about the Vapor Snags. It is very good against some of our worst matchups. I will have to test it. The most important aspect of deck building/playing in Modern is being completely comfortable in the deck your playing and practicing a ton with the deck against every matchup. It sounds like you have a very good grasp on your build and you are a very good player with your build. I haven't played against a lot of Blue Moon as I don't see that deck very often in my area. I need to test more against that deck just to see how the matchup plays out against my build.
I love Chandra, Pyromaster in a more burn oriented build, but she would probably not fit great into a build with a high number of counter spells. I also agree with you about Leyline of Sanctity. I had three in my board, but just didn't see enough burn or 8 rack to give up 3 sideboard slots. Timely reinforcements sounds like a great option.
Thanks again for the post and best of luck in the next PTQ! I can't wait to read about your results.
This is the best post yet! Awesome explanations about each card. The more I hear about Vapor Snag the more I want to give it a try. I will definitely be testing a couple in my build (possibly sideboard).
I tried Elspeth, Knight Errant and she was awesome when I was ahead, but seemed a little lackluster when behind. However, that can be said about many cards. Also it was the only double white spell in the deck so I decided to take it back out. I have been playing around with Ajani, Caller of the Pride so I might give Elspeth a try again if he doesn't pan out.
I also agree with what you said about Swan Song. It may be bad against aggro/midrange decks, BUT your not siding it in against aggro/midrange decks. Against the decks you are siding it in against, it is extremely good and the 2/2 flier will not be enough for them to win. I like it.
I also agree with Thundermaw Hellkite over Stormbreath Dragon. With all of the Lingering Souls running around, Hellkite is a real beating.
I have run Hibernation in my sideboard before as well. If the Mono Green Devotion/Stompy decks become more prevelant I would suggest adding it back in. It also does some real damage to the Rock decks in a tempo style game.
All in all this is my favorite build I have seen yet. It appears to be fast enough to race and has enough permission/top end to win the long game if it really has too. Great deck and best of luck in PTQ Prague no.2!
This is the best post yet! Awesome explanations about each card. The more I hear about Vapor Snag the more I want to give it a try. I will definitely be testing a couple in my build (possibly sideboard).
I tried Elspeth, Knight Errant and she was awesome when I was ahead, but seemed a little lackluster when behind. However, that can be said about many cards. Also it was the only double white spell in the deck so I decided to take it back out. I have been playing around with Ajani, Caller of the Pride so I might give Elspeth a try again if he doesn't pan out.
I also agree with what you said about Swan Song. It may be bad against aggro/midrange decks, BUT your not siding it in against aggro/midrange decks. Against the decks you are siding it in against, it is extremely good and the 2/2 flier will not be enough for them to win. I like it.
I also agree with Thundermaw Hellkite over Stormbreath Dragon. With all of the Lingering Souls running around, Hellkite is a real beating.
I have run Hibernation in my sideboard before as well. If the Mono Green Devotion/Stompy decks become more prevelant I would suggest adding it back in. It also does some real damage to the Rock decks in a tempo style game.
All in all this is my favorite build I have seen yet. It appears to be fast enough to race and has enough permission/top end to win the long game if it really has too. Great deck and best of luck in PTQ Prague no.2!