After running through some more games, you do tron surprisingly often by turn 4. Those lands may be worth it.
I keep wishing I had an alternate source of combo mana though. This deck lives and dies by KCI. You know what this deck needs? Candelabra of Tawnos. Anything similar to that in Modern?
It's a shame too. Because think about blowing up Urza's Tower and getting it back.
That's a huge part of why I like Ghost Quarter here. It untaps lands, thinning is really secondary in this type of list. Even if you can't thin with it I think it might be worth running a single Ghost Quarter for Expedition Map to find occasionally. Unfortunately it looks like it would dilute the deck too much to run the play an additional land cards.
I keep wishing I had an alternate source of combo mana though. This deck lives and dies by KCI. You know what this deck needs? Candelabra of Tawnos. Anything similar to that in Modern?
There's Rude Awakening it lets you untap all lands, but it uses green mana and costs 5.
I seem to run into this awkward point where I tap out for a KCI, and I don't have the mana to play the Faith's Reward in hand.
Cards in hand: Chromatic Sphere, Prophetic Prism, Faith's Reward.
Cards in Play: Tapped out Urza Lands (not online), KCI, Ichor Wellspring.
I've already asked on the Ruling forums if it would be possible to sac the Prism to generate the mana needed to pay for its ability, but the issue is that the step before actually paying for the ability is to use mana abilities. And I can't pay for the tapping of the Prism as it no longer exists, and everything reverts.
Anyway, this would have been possible if I had another CMC-1 egg in hand as I could sac the Ichor, play 2 cmc-1 eggs, sac the other to make 2 mana, play prism, sac prism, filter through Chromatic, sac Krark-Clan, and go.
I've swapped my 4 plains for 4 Darksteel Citadels, and it's worked out so far. Only difficulty would be getting off a Open the Vaults after fizzling. I think Terrarion would help in that department as it singlehandedly provides the 2 White. I'm considering bumping up my Mind Stone count as I'd like to get the T3 KCI play more often. I really wonder if there's space for maybe 1-2 Fabricates though. The dependency on Chromatics or Prism's would be an issue.
I seem to run into this awkward point where I tap out for a KCI, and I don't have the mana to play the Faith's Reward in hand.
Cards in hand: Chromatic Sphere, Prophetic Prism, Faith's Reward.
Cards in Play: Tapped out Urza Lands (not online), KCI, Ichor Wellspring.
Sacrifice the Wellspring, draw a card 2 in pool.
Pay 1 for the Sphere, 1 in pool.
Sacrifice the Sphere to KCI, 3 in pool.
Cast Prophetic Prism, draw a card, 1 in pool.
Use the prism ability to generate a white. W in pool.
Sacrifice prism. 2W in pool.
Sacrifice KCI. 4W in pool.
Sacrifice the Wellspring, draw a card 2 in pool.
Pay 1 for the Sphere, 1 in pool.
Sacrifice the Sphere to KCI, 3 in pool.
Cast Prophetic Prism, draw a card, 1 in pool.
Use the prism ability to generate a white. W in pool.
Sacrifice prism. 2W in pool.
Sacrifice KCI. 4W in pool.
Easy.
Man, I need more sleep. Thanks for pointing that out X)
Edit:
Now that I remember, I drew the Chromatic off playing the Prism (which was my only remaining play). That's how I got stuck :|
Haven't even attempted building a sideboard. Not sure what will be good. Having almost no non-artifact coloured mana sources means that the deck can't fight Stony Silence well. Thalia will also be an issue. This may be the kind of deck that wants to just be so fast that it can win game one most of the time, then hope that they don't draw their hate in games 2 or 3.
edit: Almost have it built in paper, where I will be trying etherium sculptors instead of keys, since I don't have keys yet and 2 mox opals and only one win con.
I am growing more and more impressed. I have broken even on tickets after playing quite a few 2 mans and there were quite a few misplays involved. People are not prepared for combo decks any more.
About six months back when I first brewed this deck It still looked very similar to now. I use to play eggs waaaaay back in the day long before it won a Pro Tour and I never dreamed that it would one day get banned. The reason I started brewing on this deck is because I wanted something original. That and I was able to sell my eggs deck for some insane amount compared to what I bought it for, reshapes and sunrises were a quarter each at that time. Anyway, I had been testing this deck a lot on-line when hasp approached me asking for the list to put it on the sight. I was hesitant at first because I really wanted to keep it under wraps. However, with the banning of Second Sunrise I have decided to take the deck public. I fully expect this deck to be a teir deck by the time next modern season rolls around. My goal for the deck it to make a name for myself as a deck builder, which is one of the main reasons I want to get my name as the original builder on the list as soon as possible. Hasp can confirm all this and I have been in close contact with him. So, without further ramblings here is my current deck list. I have this exact list in real life but I can not afford the Opal online at this time and have been running an extra land. The board is also included and significantly different that what it was before the eggs banning when Stony Silence was every where. I have been seeing it a lot less lately.
The main thing that has not been included in this primer yet is Etherium Sculptor. This is simply better than Cloud Key can ever hope to be. It can come down on turn 2 allowing a turn three KCI and it can chump block later in the game. By it self it makes the deck a turn faster. Emrakul is by far and away the best kill. Many people simply scoop to it. And at a major tournament you really do not want to have to cycle though the whole deck every game. The more time you spend playing the more your brain will wear down. It is much easier to ramp to 15 mana and win the game. The Æther Spellbomb one main and one side, can bounce the Emrakul to hand after you attack on your free turn and then recast to take another. It can also cantrip or bounce trouble some creatures that are beating your face. How to Beat CONTROL
You will notice that I am not playing any counter or silence effects anywhere in the deck. You beat the control through simple power. They will focus on dealing with your key spells such as KCI and Open the Vaults. Just keep drawing and keep hitting your Urza lands. Then simply hard cast an Emrakul off your lands and watch them cry. Post bored you take out all the Etherium Sculptor and replace them with Repeal
Bring the maps and Probes in for other cards at your choosing. Faith's Reward and Spellbomb are usually the first to go. Then the game plan is the same but you get to see their hand more and hit tron lands better. The results have been very good. When facing things like graveyard removal just don't sac your artifacts. Build up a glut of artifacts and resolve a KCI and use the mana from them to cast Emrakul. Try thinking of all your eggs as potential Sol Ring
I hope this has been helpful and I will continue to stay active on this forum. I am taking all question but please do not blow up my handle on MTGO if you see me online. Blisters is my handle on MTGO as well as salvation. Take care and happy brewing. ^.^
I ordered Cloud Keys but am thinking you may be right about sculptor being better. Have you tested Darksteel Citadel over Seachrome Coast? It makes you stonecold dead to Stony Silence but makes Mox Opal and Ironworks better.
My feelings on Etherium Sculptor went cold when I had him hit with Path to Exile a few times. For something that immensely helps to keep you going, I chose to pay the 1 more for the key and not worry about the spot removal. Scultor certainly works though if that's your forte.
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I'm having trouble getting this going with out any kind of ramp. Do you just play eggs and mana till you can hit four mana and get kci going? If someone is playing this online it would be awesome if we can get a game going so I can see it in action. I just don't see how it work with out lotus bloom and ghost quarter.
I'm having trouble getting this going with out any kind of ramp. Do you just play eggs and mana till you can hit four mana and get kci going? If someone is playing this online it would be awesome if we can get a game going so I can see it in action. I just don't see how it work with out lotus bloom and ghost quarter.
My mtgo tag is SlywithanI
Sly i'll add you and next time you are on i'll play it for you. I'm Hasp on there as well.
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Sly i'll add you and next time you are on i'll play it for you. I'm Hasp on there as well.
Sweet I'll be on again later this afternoon. I'm running this list you posted in the original post just with a blue splash and sculptors. I also have the cloud keys
The thing that Etherium Sculptor does is let you go off turn three more often. If you play it on turn two and it still gets removed you are still on pace to go off turn four. The very first version of this deck ran zero reducers. You can produce enough mana simply through cycling your artifacts into the grave. As long as you hit the six mana for casting Open the Vaults then the ability to cast an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is almost certain. He has also saved my life vs aggro decks that do not hit the removal. Chump blocking when he has done his job is a very real play.
If you are playing the Cloud Key version then your deck is not faster just more consistent. You take your turn three to set up an mana card to have a bit more mana on turn four when you go off. However, if you spend turn one on an egg, and then turn 2 on an egg, and turn three on 2 eggs, and then turn 4 on KCI you are still most likely going off then and there.(Sorry for the terrible run-on) The consistency of this deck is through the roof as long as you keep the draw eggs around 24 and the lands at 18 or below. Get away from the formula and you will see your testing go down hill. I tend to count Mox Opal as a land as long as there is only one in the deck.
Question about this deck. I see you don't run Pyroclasm in the main. This deck goes off around Turn 4, which is Critical mass for Robots or RDW. Do you find that this suffers from Aggro like Tron variants do?
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Level 1 Judge - Altruistic Community Service.
My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Question about this deck. I see you don't run Pyroclasm in the main. This deck goes off around Turn 4, which is Critical mass for Robots or RDW. Do you find that this suffers from Aggro like Tron variants do?
It doesn't suffer from aggro any more than other combo decks do. There are slots in the deck to include most anything you want to include, so pyroclasm could be put in if needed. You just have to be careful about diluting your eggs down too far by replacing too many with other cards that don't help the combo along.
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- Expedition Map is definitely rarely a dead card. Early, gets you Tron. Mid-combo, thins your deck and/or saccable to KCI for +1 ~ 2 mana.
- The thing is that Mind Stone lets you cycle it later. The colour fixing can generally be handled by the Chromatics. And if you really need a UW source, I'd check out Adarkar Wastes.
- Personally, I looooove playing four Keys. It's always relevant and helps me combo out during all parts of the combo. But then again, although it helps reduce costs, it's not absolutely necessary. Maybe I'll try playing three myself.
- Try playing Fabricate. Another fabulous piece to this combo deck, never ever a dead card. Other ideas include Time Sieve, Salvage Titan, and Greater Gargadon. Maybe it's silly, maybe it's legit? Who knows?
- Sometimes you also need to race a threat, so Echoing Truth is usually the go-to combo removal spell. Bouncing a Leyline (or even multiple Leylines!) on or before the turn you combo off is the same as destroying it outright. If you really must play through multiple sheets of hate, Leave no Trace is very very good, as most of the hate-enchants are white.
- Exsanguinate is definitely worth looking into, maybe I'd even go with Debt to the Deathless. The fact that it bypasses Leyline outright is powerful, but remember that it can still be countered. Keep in mind the four most common finishers and their pros and cons:
First they came for the Cantrips, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Cantrip.
Then they came for the Artifacts, and I didn't speak up, because I was an Instant.
Then they came for the Rituals, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't really a Ritual.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
I've been testing this with Blightsteel Colossus + Lightning Greaves as a wincon.
Pros:
Kills immediately if left alone
Haste
Bypasses Leyline
Indestructible
Greaves at least pay for themselves with KCI
Lowest mana cost of all wincons other than Grapeshot
Cons:
Can get Pathed, which sucks big time
Can be countered
If it doesn't kill right there and then, Emrakul is just better
Another + I can think of is that if you play [artifact] tutors, Blightsteel & Greaves can be searched for when you're ready to finish.
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First they came for the Cantrips, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Cantrip.
Then they came for the Artifacts, and I didn't speak up, because I was an Instant.
Then they came for the Rituals, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't really a Ritual.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
Blightsteel can just get blocked. Why give your opponent another turn? Why play something which can be countered or disrupted by removal?
Well, technically everything is susceptible to some form of disruption
That's the basis for playing more than one win condition in a deck.
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First they came for the Cantrips, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Cantrip.
Then they came for the Artifacts, and I didn't speak up, because I was an Instant.
Then they came for the Rituals, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't really a Ritual.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
Blightsteel can just get blocked. Why give your opponent another turn? Why play something which can be countered or disrupted by removal?
I would agree with this statement. It's possible somebody could survive a turn 4 Emrakul but Zoo is probably the only one that might have any kind of threat after doing so. In that case you might as well just dig for your other finisher because zoo isn't going to be playing something to stop you from connecting.
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Æther Spellbomb enough said. Pack one of these in the main and possible one in the side. Can bounce creatures beating your face in, can cantrip, and most importantly, can bounce Emrakul so you can take another turn.
Also this deck can take infinite turns as long as you are running 2 Emrakuls. Draw out your entire deck and simply play an Emrakul every turn off your lands. The second one kills both, shuffles them in and gives you an extra turn. Easy to keep drawing them and casting one a turn off Urza lands.
I sleeved up a budget version of this that uses Grapeshot and or Disciple of the Vault as the win cons. Ironworks is a house and I've been getting turn 3-4 kills.
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I keep wishing I had an alternate source of combo mana though. This deck lives and dies by KCI. You know what this deck needs? Candelabra of Tawnos. Anything similar to that in Modern?
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
That's a huge part of why I like Ghost Quarter here. It untaps lands, thinning is really secondary in this type of list. Even if you can't thin with it I think it might be worth running a single Ghost Quarter for Expedition Map to find occasionally. Unfortunately it looks like it would dilute the deck too much to run the play an additional land cards.
There's Rude Awakening it lets you untap all lands, but it uses green mana and costs 5.
Cards in hand: Chromatic Sphere, Prophetic Prism, Faith's Reward.
Cards in Play: Tapped out Urza Lands (not online), KCI, Ichor Wellspring.
I've already asked on the Ruling forums if it would be possible to sac the Prism to generate the mana needed to pay for its ability, but the issue is that the step before actually paying for the ability is to use mana abilities. And I can't pay for the tapping of the Prism as it no longer exists, and everything reverts.
Anyway, this would have been possible if I had another CMC-1 egg in hand as I could sac the Ichor, play 2 cmc-1 eggs, sac the other to make 2 mana, play prism, sac prism, filter through Chromatic, sac Krark-Clan, and go.
I've swapped my 4 plains for 4 Darksteel Citadels, and it's worked out so far. Only difficulty would be getting off a Open the Vaults after fizzling. I think Terrarion would help in that department as it singlehandedly provides the 2 White. I'm considering bumping up my Mind Stone count as I'd like to get the T3 KCI play more often. I really wonder if there's space for maybe 1-2 Fabricates though. The dependency on Chromatics or Prism's would be an issue.
Sacrifice the Wellspring, draw a card 2 in pool.
Pay 1 for the Sphere, 1 in pool.
Sacrifice the Sphere to KCI, 3 in pool.
Cast Prophetic Prism, draw a card, 1 in pool.
Use the prism ability to generate a white. W in pool.
Sacrifice prism. 2W in pool.
Sacrifice KCI. 4W in pool.
Easy.
Man, I need more sleep. Thanks for pointing that out X)
Edit:
Now that I remember, I drew the Chromatic off playing the Prism (which was my only remaining play). That's how I got stuck :|
Haven't even attempted building a sideboard. Not sure what will be good. Having almost no non-artifact coloured mana sources means that the deck can't fight Stony Silence well. Thalia will also be an issue. This may be the kind of deck that wants to just be so fast that it can win game one most of the time, then hope that they don't draw their hate in games 2 or 3.
edit: Almost have it built in paper, where I will be trying etherium sculptors instead of keys, since I don't have keys yet and 2 mox opals and only one win con.
I am growing more and more impressed. I have broken even on tickets after playing quite a few 2 mans and there were quite a few misplays involved. People are not prepared for combo decks any more.
I wish I was going to a GP.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Open the Vaults
1 Faith's Reward
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Elsewhere Flask
4 Prophetic Prisim
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Æther Spellbomb
1 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Plains
2 Blind Obedeance
2 Revoke Existence
2 Expedition Map
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Æther Spellbomb
The main thing that has not been included in this primer yet is Etherium Sculptor. This is simply better than Cloud Key can ever hope to be. It can come down on turn 2 allowing a turn three KCI and it can chump block later in the game. By it self it makes the deck a turn faster. Emrakul is by far and away the best kill. Many people simply scoop to it. And at a major tournament you really do not want to have to cycle though the whole deck every game. The more time you spend playing the more your brain will wear down. It is much easier to ramp to 15 mana and win the game. The Æther Spellbomb one main and one side, can bounce the Emrakul to hand after you attack on your free turn and then recast to take another. It can also cantrip or bounce trouble some creatures that are beating your face.
How to Beat CONTROL
You will notice that I am not playing any counter or silence effects anywhere in the deck. You beat the control through simple power. They will focus on dealing with your key spells such as KCI and Open the Vaults. Just keep drawing and keep hitting your Urza lands. Then simply hard cast an Emrakul off your lands and watch them cry. Post bored you take out all the Etherium Sculptor and replace them with Repeal
Bring the maps and Probes in for other cards at your choosing. Faith's Reward and Spellbomb are usually the first to go. Then the game plan is the same but you get to see their hand more and hit tron lands better. The results have been very good. When facing things like graveyard removal just don't sac your artifacts. Build up a glut of artifacts and resolve a KCI and use the mana from them to cast Emrakul. Try thinking of all your eggs as potential Sol Ring
I hope this has been helpful and I will continue to stay active on this forum. I am taking all question but please do not blow up my handle on MTGO if you see me online. Blisters is my handle on MTGO as well as salvation. Take care and happy brewing. ^.^
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
My mtgo tag is SlywithanI
Sly i'll add you and next time you are on i'll play it for you. I'm Hasp on there as well.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Sweet I'll be on again later this afternoon. I'm running this list you posted in the original post just with a blue splash and sculptors. I also have the cloud keys
Etherium Sculptor vs Cloud Key
The thing that Etherium Sculptor does is let you go off turn three more often. If you play it on turn two and it still gets removed you are still on pace to go off turn four. The very first version of this deck ran zero reducers. You can produce enough mana simply through cycling your artifacts into the grave. As long as you hit the six mana for casting Open the Vaults then the ability to cast an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is almost certain. He has also saved my life vs aggro decks that do not hit the removal. Chump blocking when he has done his job is a very real play.
If you are playing the Cloud Key version then your deck is not faster just more consistent. You take your turn three to set up an mana card to have a bit more mana on turn four when you go off. However, if you spend turn one on an egg, and then turn 2 on an egg, and turn three on 2 eggs, and then turn 4 on KCI you are still most likely going off then and there.(Sorry for the terrible run-on) The consistency of this deck is through the roof as long as you keep the draw eggs around 24 and the lands at 18 or below. Get away from the formula and you will see your testing go down hill. I tend to count Mox Opal as a land as long as there is only one in the deck.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
It doesn't suffer from aggro any more than other combo decks do. There are slots in the deck to include most anything you want to include, so pyroclasm could be put in if needed. You just have to be careful about diluting your eggs down too far by replacing too many with other cards that don't help the combo along.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Hiya!
Some thoughts to echo on your random thoughts.
- Expedition Map is definitely rarely a dead card. Early, gets you Tron. Mid-combo, thins your deck and/or saccable to KCI for +1 ~ 2 mana.
- The thing is that Mind Stone lets you cycle it later. The colour fixing can generally be handled by the Chromatics. And if you really need a UW source, I'd check out Adarkar Wastes.
- Personally, I looooove playing four Keys. It's always relevant and helps me combo out during all parts of the combo. But then again, although it helps reduce costs, it's not absolutely necessary. Maybe I'll try playing three myself.
- Try playing Fabricate. Another fabulous piece to this combo deck, never ever a dead card. Other ideas include Time Sieve, Salvage Titan, and Greater Gargadon. Maybe it's silly, maybe it's legit? Who knows?
- Sometimes you also need to race a threat, so Echoing Truth is usually the go-to combo removal spell. Bouncing a Leyline (or even multiple Leylines!) on or before the turn you combo off is the same as destroying it outright. If you really must play through multiple sheets of hate, Leave no Trace is very very good, as most of the hate-enchants are white.
- Exsanguinate is definitely worth looking into, maybe I'd even go with Debt to the Deathless. The fact that it bypasses Leyline outright is powerful, but remember that it can still be countered. Keep in mind the four most common finishers and their pros and cons:
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Banefire
Blue Sun's Zenith
Grapeshot
Another + I can think of is that if you play [artifact] tutors, Blightsteel & Greaves can be searched for when you're ready to finish.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Well, technically everything is susceptible to some form of disruption
That's the basis for playing more than one win condition in a deck.
I would agree with this statement. It's possible somebody could survive a turn 4 Emrakul but Zoo is probably the only one that might have any kind of threat after doing so. In that case you might as well just dig for your other finisher because zoo isn't going to be playing something to stop you from connecting.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Also this deck can take infinite turns as long as you are running 2 Emrakuls. Draw out your entire deck and simply play an Emrakul every turn off your lands. The second one kills both, shuffles them in and gives you an extra turn. Easy to keep drawing them and casting one a turn off Urza lands.
Also, what about 2 Darksteel Citadels and 2 Adarkar wastes ?
Do you think that would work ?