The only changes I would make is running Erase over Disenchant and Nihil Spellbomb over Relic of Progenitus. You would rather not exile your own graveyard which is what Relic does. The storm match isn't so bad. They rely on Pyromancer Ascension so much that I normally board in Erase for them and also the Nihil Spellbomb. Those two can put them in a pretty bad place without messing up our own combo too much. Twin can be a rough match but I mainboard a couple Aether Spellbomb to bounce whatever creature they are attempting to copy. Just remember to be patient. There's no reason to force a turn 4 combo if you feel you are in no danger of dying the next turn.
In your list whatever I was boaring in would replace the Expedition Maps first and second the Conjurer's Bauble. Probably a -1 Map and -2 Bauble in most instances. 3rd on the list would be one of the Elsewhere Flasks. You shouldn't feel the need to ever board in more than 4 cards. You will hurt your own combo to much doing more than that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
Has anyone had success/tested at all? I've been tinkering with the idea of running it as it can be tapped for colored mana as well as sacrificed to KCI. Any thoughts? The big downside that I see is that it doesn't cantrip. Otherwise it looks pretty good.
Also, is Revoke Existence worth it in the sideboard? The big drawbacks are 2 cmc versus 1, and it being a sorcery. It deals with both enchantments and artifacts, and exiles so that Open the Vaults doesn't bring it back. Thoughts?
Has anyone had success/tested at all? I've been tinkering with the idea of running it as it can be tapped for colored mana as well as sacrificed to KCI. Any thoughts? The big downside that I see is that it doesn't cantrip. Otherwise it looks pretty good.
Also, is Revoke Existence worth it in the sideboard? The big drawbacks are 2 cmc versus 1, and it being a sorcery. It deals with both enchantments and artifacts, and exiles so that Open the Vaults doesn't bring it back. Thoughts?
Which card are you talking about testing? I'm lost
The sorcery on Revoke Existence is bigger than it sounds. A Stony Silence will a lot of times come down early and you will in all likelihood have to use an egg to get the colored mana to get rid of it. Being able to get the mana and float it while Stony is on the stack and then exile it when it comes in is pretty big. If you have to wait around until your turn to cast something at sorcery speed you only have 4 lands in the deck that can save you and you need one of those + an out in your hand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
Just 5-0'd my fnm with a version of the deck that I am pretty happy with, managing to beat out two affinity decks, melira pod, scapeshift, and living end. Here is the list that I decided to run:
I have been tinkering and testing out the deck for a couple weeks and this is the list I became most comfortable with. I find that remand is a mandartory mainboard card, and should have at least 3-4 for of. If you are able to cast it on turn 2-3 and hit a 2-3 mana spell you are usually able to buy an extra turn, and the draw is essential. But most importantly, it makes the matchup against scapeshift, twin or other control decks much easier by being able to cast a turn 4-5 open the vaults knowing you wont get completely blown out by a cryptic or remand. It is also common to win remand wars since you are able to produce so much more mana than they will have. Since people are starting to be pretty aware that this deck exists, players will know exactly what to counter, and without remand that makes these matchups much more harder to handle.
I think mind stone is pretty good card, despite it losing popularity over here. It is versatile by having the dual purpose of ramping early on, which is pretty important in some matchups like twin where every bit of mana you have is important against pestermite or exarch to tap your mana on turn 4 when you need to cast KCI, and of course allowing for extra draws when you are going off with KCI. Also allows for more explosive early plays, and the occasional ramp into 15 mana without using the graveyard.
I cut the adarkar wastes because I rarely found myself being short of colored mana with the 8 chromatic eggs, prophetic prism, opals, and glimmervoid/plains. Darksteel citadel enables opal to turn active on turn 2 (without needing to cast another artifact) much more often, which let me cast turn 2 angers and damping matrices during game 2-3. It also let me combo off of KCI on turn 4 with board states that wouldnt have let me otherwise if it were an adarkar wastes instead (prophetic prism x2 + KCI with OTV in hand for example).
Then there is the triple emrakul, which I know a lot of you dislike. Emrakul is by far the best wincon of them all, and against decks like Pod and affinity, sometimes you are just dead if you let them untap with no mana but enough creatures to swing back for lethal. Same situation also applies to a twin deck that pestermites the emrakul down for a turn, without casting another emrakul it might end up in a loss once they untap for splinter twin. Being able to chain cast them into one another is sometimes necessary. I also like being able to confidently draw into one in the first 20 cards even when my opponent has played a rest in piece or relic, waiting for me to use the graveyard, just to see me ramp into 15 fairly easily, compared to waiting a couple extra turns to go off on a banefire. If I suspect my opponent will hate out emrakul in game 2, I just board into the banefire.
Just 5-0'd my fnm with a version of the deck that I am pretty happy with, managing to beat out two affinity decks, melira pod, scapeshift, and living end. Here is the list that I decided to run:
I have been tinkering and testing out the deck for a couple weeks and this is the list I became most comfortable with. I find that remand is a mandartory mainboard card, and should have at least 3-4 for of. If you are able to cast it on turn 2-3 and hit a 2-3 mana spell you are usually able to buy an extra turn, and the draw is essential. But most importantly, it makes the matchup against scapeshift, twin or other control decks much easier by being able to cast a turn 4-5 open the vaults knowing you wont get completely blown out by a cryptic or remand. It is also common to win remand wars since you are able to produce so much more mana than they will have. Since people are starting to be pretty aware that this deck exists, players will know exactly what to counter, and without remand that makes these matchups much more harder to handle.
I think mind stone is pretty good card, despite it losing popularity over here. It is versatile by having the dual purpose of ramping early on, which is pretty important in some matchups like twin where every bit of mana you have is important against pestermite or exarch to tap your mana on turn 4 when you need to cast KCI, and of course allowing for extra draws when you are going off with KCI. Also allows for more explosive early plays, and the occasional ramp into 15 mana without using the graveyard.
I cut the adarkar wastes because I rarely found myself being short of colored mana with the 8 chromatic eggs, prophetic prism, opals, and glimmervoid/plains. Darksteel citadel enables opal to turn active on turn 2 (without needing to cast another artifact) much more often, which let me cast turn 2 angers and damping matrices during game 2-3. It also let me combo off of KCI on turn 4 with board states that wouldnt have let me otherwise if it were an adarkar wastes instead (prophetic prism x2 + KCI with OTV in hand for example).
Then there is the triple emrakul, which I know a lot of you dislike. Emrakul is by far the best wincon of them all, and against decks like Pod and affinity, sometimes you are just dead if you let them untap with no mana but enough creatures to swing back for lethal. I also like being able to confidently draw into one in the first 20 cards even when my opponent has played a rest in piece or relic, waiting for me to use the graveyard, just to see me ramp into 15 fairly easily, compared to waiting a couple extra turns to go off on a banefire. If I suspect my opponent will hate out emrakul in game 2, I just board into the banefire.
Why does it matter how many cards you need to go through to find the Emrakul as long as you find it already?
Why does it matter how many cards you need to go through to find the Emrakul as long as you find it already?
Do you mean assuming the combo goes into full swing and I will find it eventually? The point I was making is that it should reliably be within your ability to draw into it (1 emrakul is hard to draw into), the less cards it takes on average to draw into it, the better. This is referring to situations where you cant cast OTV for whatever reason, whether you cant draw it, or your opponent has hated your graveyard out.
Sorry for the delay on my results. Turned out to be a 60 person event (not the biggest, I'm aware, but alas, I went into the event with no prior testing, other then goldfishing (wanted to test hands / consistancy) and the only changes happened to the sideboard:
-2 Relic of Progentius, + 2 Nihil Spellbomb and -1 Disenchat, +1 Dispeller Capsule (Sorry for ignoring the Erase advice, but I wanted to try this...). Keep in mind, this is a fully proxied event, and I was mostly "asked" (challenged) to take a budget deck (this came to a total of like.. $110-112 according to Tcg mid on tappedout.net (no cards missing), so feel free to take this info as you will.
Round 1:
Dega Burn(Mono Red, splash B, Splash W.. surprise splash of G?) 0-2 (Loss)
Not the best way to start the day, called it on the way to the event though lol, guys asked what my 3 worst matches were gonna be (all speculation of course), my answer: Burn, maybe Blue Moon and scapeshift (honestly had no idea of a third, so threw out a combo/control deck).
I kept a great start, but on the draw vs Gob guide, Gob Guide, Bolt, Helix and Bump just made a fast g1 (obv not counting his lands here) If I had 1 turn, I'd have gone off (bolt killed sculpter t2, but he allowed me to cast my baubles, sadly he didnt do that g2).
I sided out 1 Spine of Ish Sar for the Defense Grid, not that it mattered ( (Was not expecting))Proceeded to take bolts, helixi and Guides to the jugular.
I played after the event against my local (small area, like 8-12 people is the norm FNM number) burn player (mono-R) and the deck CAN beat burn. Somewhat.
Current Record: 0-1
Round 2:
GW Slivers 2-0 (Win)
Wasn't the worse deck I've seen honestly, turn 1 fetch into Vial , turn 2 mana sliver, turn 3 pred, muscle, pred...
Enough about that though, Deck went off on turn 4 (thankfully) while I sat there with 6 or so life. Comboed til Banefire for 21.
Game 2 went turn 1 plains into capsule, against turn 1 forest into Vial
turn 2 Sculpter, take 1, bauble, star, fetch, grab Temple Garden into RIP. 19 vs 17
turn 3 Krak Clans draw, play prism, flask, wellspring. Into muscle and mana sliver. 19 vs 16
turn 4 sculpter, take 1, prism, sphere. mana sliver, mana sliver, muscle, take 6. 12 vs 16
Turn 5 draw banefire, mini combo into a banefire for 17 (Didn't dig with baubles at all, even though missed 2 land drops...)
Did I play perfect? Not at all, would I advise that style of play? No. I just considered it a friendly game, so I played dully. After I won, I played a tad more serious...
Current Record: 1-1
Round 3:
UB Fae 1-2 (loss)
Game 1 - Turn 4 combo, opponent thought I was on Tron until turn 3 Sculpter, into sculpter, into all but 2 cards in hand (OtV, and KCI). Proceed to win with a bit of life left.
Game 2 - Lose due 3 V-cliques, into 2 .
Game 3 - turn 2 Blossom into scion kinda hurts the life a bit.
Round 4: (Was considering dropping if I lost this round)
Tarmo-Twin 2-0 (Win)
g1 - Start getting beaten down by 'Goyf then an Exarch... Still manage to pull off a combo win (went for the simple, Cast -> beat in face)
g2 - Opponents stuck on 3 land, beating down with counterspells, Ooze and Exarch, ~6 turns of that (no sculpters played) and I combo to a flying tentacle monster for game.
Sideboard was -1 Spine -1 Map -1 Bauble, +1 Defense Grid +2 Topor Orb
Opponent was pretty tilted, but alas, it happens.
Current Record: 2-2
Round 5:
UWR Twin (not sure if another name applies) 2-1 (Win)
G1 - turn 5 combo off (opp tapped out)
Sided in 2 Echoing Truth 2 Torpor Orb once I figured he was UWR Twin, sided out 2 baubles, 1 Spine, and 1 Map
Round 6:
Affinity 2-0 (Win) (Honestly, once he won the die roll, and I saw affinity, I go a bit worried)
G1 - combo off with 2 life left (all risk, barely rewarded)
Sided out 1 Spine, for 1 Grapeshot (just to atleast ping critters on turn 2-3)
G2 - Go to 9 infect, combo off again on turn 4.
Opponent LOVED the deck, never saw Eggs before at all. So it was actually 'fun' running through the deck with him, and I actually looked at his sideboard and showed him my way of sideing vs Eggs (2 Relics, 1 Hyrll's Recall ((He wanted that vs the mirror, honestly I don't dislike that idea.... No idea how good it is mind you...)))
Current Record for the end of the day: 4-2, Ended in 17th Place out of 60.
All in all, I couldn't complain too much, considering I expected to go 0-2 drop.
-------------------------
Change to list:
-1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Codex Shredder (trying things out with the deck, so I figured O-Rings were a decent flex spot)
Small 8 person event (was changed from a draft 4h prior to event).
G2 - misjudges his combo, leaves me at 3 life I cant draw a combo off, so I try stalling, he just drops mountain, dead.
Sideboard - -1 Bauble, +1 Grapeshot (want to have adit win con due to ~6 fetches)
Current Record - 1-0
Round 2:
Boggles 1-2 (Loss)
G1 - Opponent goes 5 turns without a creature. I combo off, he goes on tilt.
G2 - he doesnt sideboard at all, still doesnt draw creature for 2 turns, I'm stuck on 2 land. He beats me down.
G3 - He doesnt cast creature til t4, I start comboing "apparently" I missed a W source for the loss, even though I was showing dice (dice were respectful color, X mana was a commanders arsenal life counter). I honestly didn't care to argue with him, so I just conceded, reported the score. He was still on tilt (he proceded to win the event, if I had of argued, I beleive I would have won instead, but the prize was minor and I got in for free... still walked away with $15 store credit)
Current Record: 1-1
Round 3:
Blue Moon 2-1
G1 - Combo off turn 5.
G2 - Sided out Spine, for Grapeshot (didn't care, was having fun with the guy, good pals), proceeded to lose do to B-Moon + infinite V-Cliques (2... but it was enough, couldn't land a KCI or hold a ).
G3 - Sided out 2 Bauble, 1 Map for 2 Echoing Truth , 1 Spine. A... Lot... Of.. Lands (8 tron lands, , and a on a tower), draw an , boards 5 eggs(2 Prisms, 1 Bauble, 2 stars), 1 sculpters, 3 towers (one with a seas on it), 2 Power Plants, 3 mines, 1 Plains . Hand is 1 KCI, 1 OtV , 1 Emrakul , 1 Spine ). Oppenents board is: Blood Moon, 4 "mountains"(3 islands, 1 fetch untapped), 2 Relics, 1 V-Clique that just attacked, 2 card in hand.
I swing for 1. Cast Spine, he cryptics and draws a card, cast kci, reveal hand, he wants me to do it for fun, start saccing stuff to just get enough mana for Spaghetti Monster (I may have misjudged Eggs and what not mind you), then scoops.
Chan I like your list. You are correct that I don't exactly care for the 3 Emrakul, but whatever works for you is good. I can't drop Spine of Ish Sah from my list so if I added an Emrakul I would go to 2 instead of 3 and leave the last place for a Spine. It has just been useful too many times to cut it. I understand the want to run more Emrakul, I just am not sure it actually makes the deck better by doing so. Mind Stone is a card that I cut a long time ago. It seems redundant with Mox Opal to me. I do like Glimmervoid and may switch out the Wastes for it.
I'm glad somebody else is playing without the Etherium Sculptor. It certainly makes the deck more expensive to do so but is a pretty big upgrade to consistency to cut the Sculptors I think. I haven't played the deck much in a few weeks because the MTGO meta hasn't been a good place for it. The past few days I have been doing some single match queues and doing well though. The whole Tarmo Twin craze seems to be dying out online which is good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
Chan I like your list. You are correct that I don't exactly care for the 3 Emrakul, but whatever works for you is good. I can't drop Spine of Ish Sah from my list so if I added an Emrakul I would go to 2 instead of 3 and leave the last place for a Spine. It has just been useful too many times to cut it. I understand the want to run more Emrakul, I just am not sure it actually makes the deck better by doing so. Mind Stone is a card that I cut a long time ago. It seems redundant with Mox Opal to me. I do like Glimmervoid and may switch out the Wastes for it.
I'm glad somebody else is playing without the Etherium Sculptor. It certainly makes the deck more expensive to do so but is a pretty big upgrade to consistency to cut the Sculptors I think. I haven't played the deck much in a few weeks because the MTGO meta hasn't been a good place for it. The past few days I have been doing some single match queues and doing well though. The whole Tarmo Twin craze seems to be dying out online which is good.
I tried running Etherium Sculptor, but I had some major gripes with the card. Without the cantrip, I found myself mulling hands that I probably would have otherwise have kept I had a card that did. It also felt like a win-more card, where I was probably already going to be able to combo off into my entire deck even if that wasnt on board. There wasn't any need to generate an insane amount of mana when 15 is normally sufficient to win the game, though it makes playing with banefire a lot better. It looks like people are using it as a budget alternative to opal though, which is pretty understandable.
One thing I wanted to learn more about is the appeal of Spine of Ish Sah. Unless I am missing something obvious, it seems that all the card does is shutdown an opponent's ability to win without actually winning yourself. Isn't it just better to have another win-con that will let you win the game on the spot? And yeah, I am still a little on the fence about Mind Stone, since it does what mox opal does but much worse, and is able to draw a card at a very inefficient cost. It's having the option of using either that puts it in a favorable light to me, being useful in both the early turns and combo phases of the game.
Spine is sort of a difficult card to describe its use without just playing with it, but you are somewhat correct that it can keep an opponent from winning without actually winning the game for you. It did just that earlier today for me. I kept a marginal hand against Melira Pod and had terrible luck with my first few draws. I did draw into a Spine, KCI, and assembled Tron. I would have certainly lost the game without doing that. I was able to destroy his mana base, Pod, and creatures before dying. After that I could leisurely do what I needed to win. So while Spine didn't win the game for me it kept me from losing the game. It's easy to say that a extra win con would have sufficed but I didn't have the mana to hardcast an Emrakul or a lethal Banefire before I would have lost the game. Spine is also another way to get rid of hate without needing colored mana. Tron plus a Spine can get rid of anything that is keeping you from the combo.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
The deck is much more resilient to hate than people give it credit for. The ways out aren't always the most obvious but there are plenty of lines that you figure out after playing the deck for a while.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
I don't know... I played the deck for a couple months and my response to getting a KCI countered or discarded was basically to wait until I drew another. I don't really see another way out of that one other than hardcasting Emrakul, which is a possibility but definitely a last resort that you can't count on. Adding Expedition Maps in order to support this line of play seems too risky to dilute your deck. I'm looking to give this deck another try , but it's just so reliant on resolving a KCI, and it scoops so hard to a relic of progenitus that I can't really justify taking it to a big event.
There are ways to play around counters once you get the combo going, sure, but starting the combo is so hard when faced with counters or discard or any sideboard hate. Honestly, and I don't mean to make anyone angry with this comment, this deck just seems like storm but more fragile. Fun to play, and takes a lot of skill, but too fragile to be competitive.
The deck has shown itself to be resilient to me through play. You have to do it smartly though your deck building and play though. You say that the deck scoops hard to a relic of progenitus but that just isn't true at all. Learn to play around it. Use a spine on the relic and it will force them to use it. Don't play and crack every egg that you have and use your sunrise with stuff in hand so you can continue if they exile your GY. That forces them to either let you get stuff out or to lose their advantage for the turn. It's a combo deck, of course you need to resolve a card. There are things you can do to mitigate the chances of not resolving a KCI though. If you are playing against control don't just tap out and cast a KCI into the face of a mana leak. Wait until you can pay for the mana leak through Tron. If you are playing against true control they aren't going to race you down and you have plenty of time to play around them. Most of your complaints seem to be a play issue and not a deck issue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
I guess I've never played with spine so I have no data there. The biggest issue seems to be facing blue-based tempo decks, especially faeries, where they can disrupt your plan and still have a clock on you. Too bad twin is so big right now. Specifically, I had problems with so many decks running countermagic plus tectonic edge main, so they could attack both aspects of this deck.
But I'm going to give the deck another try either these next few weeks or after the GP, depending on whether I can go to the GP. I don't think I have enough experience with eggs to take it to a GP, so if I go I'll probably play scapeshift (not too much experience there, either, but at least I've been playing it recently). Unless I end up feeling really good about eggs in the next week or so.
I do like the idea of running some remands mainboard, maybe instead of the sculptors. I think that should give the deck some much-needed resiliency to early countermagic.
It would almost be fair to call them different decks. I believe the Tron eggs to be superior but Sodek with the poached eggs deck would disagree. The one thing that Tron has on the poached version is it doesn't necessarily need to combo to win the game. A KCI + Spine can lock out a game or it's possible to hardcast an Emrakul or Banefire for the win. For that reason, I think it is more resilient. The only downside is that resolving a KCI is pretty necessary, but if I understand correctly the poached version relies on a KCI pretty heavily also. As for speed I think the poached version can do turn 4 pretty consistently with a turn 3 on the outer fringes of possibility. The Tron KCI version that I play can pull a turn 3 probably about 20-30% of the time (I don't keep track to give an exact number) and a turn 4 likely the rest of the time. Against extreme hate it can go to later turns but that would be true for both decks.
It's hard to give an exact recommendation, you should fit your playstyle, but you are correct that the Tron version can be cheaper and easier to play. The biggest issue I see people have is they pick up the deck and understand the basic lines of play to combo but don't ever attempt to learn the smaller intricacies then get frustrated the moment they see the smallest amount of hate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
Obviously, the 10 Islands in the side aren't real - I've yet to figure out a good sideboard. I'm hoping it'll prove to be quite resilient, but still with the ability to power out an early KCI if need be due to the 4 opals and mind stones and 2 maps. I'm going to try out the Phyrexia's Core as a way to sacrifice Myr Retrievers without KCI and bring back a countered or discarded KCI. Buried Ruins can do the same thing but quicker. I like how they're tutorable via maps.
Making a decklist got me thinking - what if speed is more valuable than resiliency? I wonder if a decklist like this could power out wins through sheer speed:
It has the highest egg density possible, I think, and the ability to drop eggs and KCI fast through the opals and mind stones. The Darksteel Citadels are there to turn on opals, and for KCI fodder when going off. I just wish I had more time to dedicate to playtesting.
I've thought about trying a list that aims to power out a KCI for a bit. I like the idea, I just haven't done it. It would be great against a lot of decks, but gets a little rougher against control where you may just power out into a counter.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
I've been screwing around a bit with a GW list that uses ancient stirrings for consistency, gitaxian probe to play around interaction and no colored mana lands in the main to maximize g1 comboing and Unravel the Aether as (IMO) the perfect answer to all our problems.
The deck is definitely hard to play and sequencing cantrips is a pain in the ass but I have decent turn 3 percentages. I did some testing and then took a break from the deck so from memory I remember having a good WUR control matchup, 60-40 affinity matchup preboard, 50-50 tarmo-twin (favored unless they draw remand), 80-20 anything fair like junk midrange.
I've been screwing around a bit with a GW list that uses ancient stirrings for consistency, gitaxian probe to play around interaction and no colored mana lands in the main to maximize g1 comboing and Unravel the Aether as (IMO) the perfect answer to all our problems.
The deck is definitely hard to play and sequencing cantrips is a pain in the ass but I have decent turn 3 percentages. I did some testing and then took a break from the deck so from memory I remember having a good WUR control matchup, 60-40 affinity matchup preboard, 50-50 tarmo-twin (favored unless they draw remand), 80-20 anything fair like junk midrange.
Sounds interesting. Do you want to post a list?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
The numbers are almost certainly wrong. Cloud key has been an okay accelerant/faux land drop but does not do enough mid-combo. I'll probably try replacing it with stirrings next. With the board, I stayed away from artifacts that are not at least mana neutral when comboing, that means that our hate peaces can all come down the turn before we win off of a nut draw. Might want 1 more Open the Vaults.
The mulligan plan is to keep anything that can get to 2 mana on turn 2. At that point there is enough live draws that manascrew is unlikely.
I've skewed the deck to try to go off from the least resources possible and haven't actually been keeping up with the lists on this forum so maybe this kind of stuff has been tried and rejected before.
Cloud key has been an okay accelerant/faux land drop but does not do enough mid-combo. I'll probably try replacing it with stirrings next.
Having played both Cloud Key and Etherium Sculptor, the key does not compare. The cost is higher and no chump block option in the waning turns before combo in the face of a non-flying threat.
Four Terrarion at the same time as three Chromatic Sphere is questionable. Though I have no special love for the Sphere when compared to the Star, Terrarion's similarity to the Star is superficial at best. The comes into tapped is a card value drain from which it cannot be saved. Then, the double colored mana source is a double-edged sword: The benefit gained late game is equalized by the added complexity early game. What makes it worse? I love Terrarion's artwork for the similarity to the Star. There was a brief moment when I thought about trading the Sphere out for Terrarion completely. Then, I ran it. That moment is now fading from my memory.
Gitaxian Probe MD makes me a tad lusty until I see the cost; Codex shredder and Spine of Ish Sah banished to the SB. Important playlines and basic mechanics will truly suffer. I just don't have the room in Krak Eggs, or I would love the Probe for its built in Intel factor. Got a counter? No?! Awesome, comboing off now!
We could debate the value of running two Emrakul's; card slot value, increased opening hand risk and graveyard killing card mechanic. But, if you want to draw one sooner a second is the path to that.
In your list whatever I was boaring in would replace the Expedition Maps first and second the Conjurer's Bauble. Probably a -1 Map and -2 Bauble in most instances. 3rd on the list would be one of the Elsewhere Flasks. You shouldn't feel the need to ever board in more than 4 cards. You will hurt your own combo to much doing more than that.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Also, is Revoke Existence worth it in the sideboard? The big drawbacks are 2 cmc versus 1, and it being a sorcery. It deals with both enchantments and artifacts, and exiles so that Open the Vaults doesn't bring it back. Thoughts?
Which card are you talking about testing? I'm lost
The sorcery on Revoke Existence is bigger than it sounds. A Stony Silence will a lot of times come down early and you will in all likelihood have to use an egg to get the colored mana to get rid of it. Being able to get the mana and float it while Stony is on the stack and then exile it when it comes in is pretty big. If you have to wait around until your turn to cast something at sorcery speed you only have 4 lands in the deck that can save you and you need one of those + an out in your hand.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
1 Glimmervoid
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Mox Opal
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
2 Conjurer's Bauble
3 Mind Stone
2 Fabricate
1 Faith's Reward
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Open the Vaults
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Remand
3 Torpor Orb
2 Damping Matrix
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Banefire
I have been tinkering and testing out the deck for a couple weeks and this is the list I became most comfortable with. I find that remand is a mandartory mainboard card, and should have at least 3-4 for of. If you are able to cast it on turn 2-3 and hit a 2-3 mana spell you are usually able to buy an extra turn, and the draw is essential. But most importantly, it makes the matchup against scapeshift, twin or other control decks much easier by being able to cast a turn 4-5 open the vaults knowing you wont get completely blown out by a cryptic or remand. It is also common to win remand wars since you are able to produce so much more mana than they will have. Since people are starting to be pretty aware that this deck exists, players will know exactly what to counter, and without remand that makes these matchups much more harder to handle.
I think mind stone is pretty good card, despite it losing popularity over here. It is versatile by having the dual purpose of ramping early on, which is pretty important in some matchups like twin where every bit of mana you have is important against pestermite or exarch to tap your mana on turn 4 when you need to cast KCI, and of course allowing for extra draws when you are going off with KCI. Also allows for more explosive early plays, and the occasional ramp into 15 mana without using the graveyard.
I cut the adarkar wastes because I rarely found myself being short of colored mana with the 8 chromatic eggs, prophetic prism, opals, and glimmervoid/plains. Darksteel citadel enables opal to turn active on turn 2 (without needing to cast another artifact) much more often, which let me cast turn 2 angers and damping matrices during game 2-3. It also let me combo off of KCI on turn 4 with board states that wouldnt have let me otherwise if it were an adarkar wastes instead (prophetic prism x2 + KCI with OTV in hand for example).
Then there is the triple emrakul, which I know a lot of you dislike. Emrakul is by far the best wincon of them all, and against decks like Pod and affinity, sometimes you are just dead if you let them untap with no mana but enough creatures to swing back for lethal. Same situation also applies to a twin deck that pestermites the emrakul down for a turn, without casting another emrakul it might end up in a loss once they untap for splinter twin. Being able to chain cast them into one another is sometimes necessary. I also like being able to confidently draw into one in the first 20 cards even when my opponent has played a rest in piece or relic, waiting for me to use the graveyard, just to see me ramp into 15 fairly easily, compared to waiting a couple extra turns to go off on a banefire. If I suspect my opponent will hate out emrakul in game 2, I just board into the banefire.
Why does it matter how many cards you need to go through to find the Emrakul as long as you find it already?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Do you mean assuming the combo goes into full swing and I will find it eventually? The point I was making is that it should reliably be within your ability to draw into it (1 emrakul is hard to draw into), the less cards it takes on average to draw into it, the better. This is referring to situations where you cant cast OTV for whatever reason, whether you cant draw it, or your opponent has hated your graveyard out.
Sorry for the delay on my results. Turned out to be a 60 person event (not the biggest, I'm aware, but alas, I went into the event with no prior testing, other then goldfishing (wanted to test hands / consistancy) and the only changes happened to the sideboard:
-2 Relic of Progentius, + 2 Nihil Spellbomb and -1 Disenchat, +1 Dispeller Capsule (Sorry for ignoring the Erase advice, but I wanted to try this...). Keep in mind, this is a fully proxied event, and I was mostly "asked" (challenged) to take a budget deck (this came to a total of like.. $110-112 according to Tcg mid on tappedout.net (no cards missing), so feel free to take this info as you will.
Dega Burn(Mono Red, splash B, Splash W.. surprise splash of G?) 0-2 (Loss)
Not the best way to start the day, called it on the way to the event though lol, guys asked what my 3 worst matches were gonna be (all speculation of course), my answer: Burn, maybe Blue Moon and scapeshift (honestly had no idea of a third, so threw out a combo/control deck).
I kept a great start, but on the draw vs Gob guide, Gob Guide, Bolt, Helix and Bump just made a fast g1 (obv not counting his lands here) If I had 1 turn, I'd have gone off (bolt killed sculpter t2, but he allowed me to cast my baubles, sadly he didnt do that g2).
I sided out 1 Spine of Ish Sar for the Defense Grid, not that it mattered ( (Was not expecting))Proceeded to take bolts, helixi and Guides to the jugular.
I played after the event against my local (small area, like 8-12 people is the norm FNM number) burn player (mono-R) and the deck CAN beat burn. Somewhat.
Current Record: 0-1
Round 2:
GW Slivers 2-0 (Win)
Wasn't the worse deck I've seen honestly, turn 1 fetch into Vial , turn 2 mana sliver, turn 3 pred, muscle, pred...
Enough about that though, Deck went off on turn 4 (thankfully) while I sat there with 6 or so life. Comboed til Banefire for 21.
Sided out Emrakul for Grapeshot (Was experimenting, since losing round 1) and Map for Dispeller's Capsule.
Game 2 went turn 1 plains into capsule, against turn 1 forest into Vial
turn 2 Sculpter, take 1, bauble, star, fetch, grab Temple Garden into RIP. 19 vs 17
turn 3 Krak Clans draw, play prism, flask, wellspring. Into muscle and mana sliver. 19 vs 16
turn 4 sculpter, take 1, prism, sphere. mana sliver, mana sliver, muscle, take 6. 12 vs 16
Turn 5 draw banefire, mini combo into a banefire for 17 (Didn't dig with baubles at all, even though missed 2 land drops...)
Did I play perfect? Not at all, would I advise that style of play? No. I just considered it a friendly game, so I played dully. After I won, I played a tad more serious...
Current Record: 1-1
Round 3:
UB Fae 1-2 (loss)
Game 1 - Turn 4 combo, opponent thought I was on Tron until turn 3 Sculpter, into sculpter, into all but 2 cards in hand (OtV, and KCI). Proceed to win with a bit of life left.
Game 2 - Lose due 3 V-cliques, into 2 .
Game 3 - turn 2 Blossom into scion kinda hurts the life a bit.
Sideboard : -1 Map -2 Bauble, +2 Echoing Truth +1 Defense Grid
Current Record : 1-2
Round 4: (Was considering dropping if I lost this round)
Tarmo-Twin 2-0 (Win)
g1 - Start getting beaten down by 'Goyf then an Exarch... Still manage to pull off a combo win (went for the simple, Cast -> beat in face)
g2 - Opponents stuck on 3 land, beating down with counterspells, Ooze and Exarch, ~6 turns of that (no sculpters played) and I combo to a flying tentacle monster for game.
Sideboard was -1 Spine -1 Map -1 Bauble, +1 Defense Grid +2 Topor Orb
Opponent was pretty tilted, but alas, it happens.
Current Record: 2-2
Round 5:
UWR Twin (not sure if another name applies) 2-1 (Win)
G1 - turn 5 combo off (opp tapped out)
Sided in 2 Echoing Truth 2 Torpor Orb once I figured he was UWR Twin, sided out 2 baubles, 1 Spine, and 1 Map
G2 - Opp counters well, and has the t4 combo.
G3 - Opp plays Stony Silence, I stall as well as I can until Banefire win
Current Record : 3-2
Round 6:
Affinity 2-0 (Win) (Honestly, once he won the die roll, and I saw affinity, I go a bit worried)
G1 - combo off with 2 life left (all risk, barely rewarded)
Sided out 1 Spine, for 1 Grapeshot (just to atleast ping critters on turn 2-3)
G2 - Go to 9 infect, combo off again on turn 4.
Opponent LOVED the deck, never saw Eggs before at all. So it was actually 'fun' running through the deck with him, and I actually looked at his sideboard and showed him my way of sideing vs Eggs (2 Relics, 1 Hyrll's Recall ((He wanted that vs the mirror, honestly I don't dislike that idea.... No idea how good it is mind you...)))
Current Record for the end of the day: 4-2, Ended in 17th Place out of 60.
All in all, I couldn't complain too much, considering I expected to go 0-2 drop.
Change to list:
-1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Codex Shredder (trying things out with the deck, so I figured O-Rings were a decent flex spot)
Small 8 person event (was changed from a draft 4h prior to event).
Round 1:
Scapeshift 2-1 (Win)
G1 - Combo off turn 5 (tron lands only)
Sideboard: -1 Map, +1 Defense Grid
G2 - misjudges his combo, leaves me at 3 life I cant draw a combo off, so I try stalling, he just drops mountain, dead.
Sideboard - -1 Bauble, +1 Grapeshot (want to have adit win con due to ~6 fetches)
Current Record - 1-0
Round 2:
Boggles 1-2 (Loss)
G1 - Opponent goes 5 turns without a creature. I combo off, he goes on tilt.
G2 - he doesnt sideboard at all, still doesnt draw creature for 2 turns, I'm stuck on 2 land. He beats me down.
G3 - He doesnt cast creature til t4, I start comboing "apparently" I missed a W source for the loss, even though I was showing dice (dice were respectful color, X mana was a commanders arsenal life counter). I honestly didn't care to argue with him, so I just conceded, reported the score. He was still on tilt (he proceded to win the event, if I had of argued, I beleive I would have won instead, but the prize was minor and I got in for free... still walked away with $15 store credit)
Current Record: 1-1
Round 3:
Blue Moon 2-1
G1 - Combo off turn 5.
G2 - Sided out Spine, for Grapeshot (didn't care, was having fun with the guy, good pals), proceeded to lose do to B-Moon + infinite V-Cliques (2... but it was enough, couldn't land a KCI or hold a ).
G3 - Sided out 2 Bauble, 1 Map for 2 Echoing Truth , 1 Spine. A... Lot... Of.. Lands (8 tron lands, , and a on a tower), draw an , boards 5 eggs(2 Prisms, 1 Bauble, 2 stars), 1 sculpters, 3 towers (one with a seas on it), 2 Power Plants, 3 mines, 1 Plains . Hand is 1 KCI, 1 OtV , 1 Emrakul , 1 Spine ). Oppenents board is: Blood Moon, 4 "mountains"(3 islands, 1 fetch untapped), 2 Relics, 1 V-Clique that just attacked, 2 card in hand.
I swing for 1. Cast Spine, he cryptics and draws a card, cast kci, reveal hand, he wants me to do it for fun, start saccing stuff to just get enough mana for Spaghetti Monster (I may have misjudged Eggs and what not mind you), then scoops.
Overall: 2-1 3rd out of 8
Opponent on Tilt record: 2 <3
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
I'm glad somebody else is playing without the Etherium Sculptor. It certainly makes the deck more expensive to do so but is a pretty big upgrade to consistency to cut the Sculptors I think. I haven't played the deck much in a few weeks because the MTGO meta hasn't been a good place for it. The past few days I have been doing some single match queues and doing well though. The whole Tarmo Twin craze seems to be dying out online which is good.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
I tried running Etherium Sculptor, but I had some major gripes with the card. Without the cantrip, I found myself mulling hands that I probably would have otherwise have kept I had a card that did. It also felt like a win-more card, where I was probably already going to be able to combo off into my entire deck even if that wasnt on board. There wasn't any need to generate an insane amount of mana when 15 is normally sufficient to win the game, though it makes playing with banefire a lot better. It looks like people are using it as a budget alternative to opal though, which is pretty understandable.
One thing I wanted to learn more about is the appeal of Spine of Ish Sah. Unless I am missing something obvious, it seems that all the card does is shutdown an opponent's ability to win without actually winning yourself. Isn't it just better to have another win-con that will let you win the game on the spot? And yeah, I am still a little on the fence about Mind Stone, since it does what mox opal does but much worse, and is able to draw a card at a very inefficient cost. It's having the option of using either that puts it in a favorable light to me, being useful in both the early turns and combo phases of the game.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
There are ways to play around counters once you get the combo going, sure, but starting the combo is so hard when faced with counters or discard or any sideboard hate. Honestly, and I don't mean to make anyone angry with this comment, this deck just seems like storm but more fragile. Fun to play, and takes a lot of skill, but too fragile to be competitive.
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
But I'm going to give the deck another try either these next few weeks or after the GP, depending on whether I can go to the GP. I don't think I have enough experience with eggs to take it to a GP, so if I go I'll probably play scapeshift (not too much experience there, either, but at least I've been playing it recently). Unless I end up feeling really good about eggs in the next week or so.
I do like the idea of running some remands mainboard, maybe instead of the sculptors. I think that should give the deck some much-needed resiliency to early countermagic.
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat
It's hard to give an exact recommendation, you should fit your playstyle, but you are correct that the Tron version can be cheaper and easier to play. The biggest issue I see people have is they pick up the deck and understand the basic lines of play to combo but don't ever attempt to learn the smaller intricacies then get frustrated the moment they see the smallest amount of hate.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
2 Phyrexia's Core
1 Buried Ruin
1 Adarkar Wastes
Artifacts (11)
4 Mox Opal
2 Expedition Map
1 Aether Spellbomb
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
2 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Mind Stone
4 Prophetic Prism
Spells (7)
4 Open the Vaults
1 Faith's Reward
2 Fabricate
Creatures (3)
2 Myr Retriever
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Silence
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
10 Islands
Obviously, the 10 Islands in the side aren't real - I've yet to figure out a good sideboard. I'm hoping it'll prove to be quite resilient, but still with the ability to power out an early KCI if need be due to the 4 opals and mind stones and 2 maps. I'm going to try out the Phyrexia's Core as a way to sacrifice Myr Retrievers without KCI and bring back a countered or discarded KCI. Buried Ruins can do the same thing but quicker. I like how they're tutorable via maps.
Making a decklist got me thinking - what if speed is more valuable than resiliency? I wonder if a decklist like this could power out wins through sheer speed:
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Darksteel Citadel
Artifacts (8)
4 Mox Opal
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Counjurer's Bauble
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Mind Stone
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Open the Vaults
1 Faith's Reward
2 Fabricate
1 Banefire
It has the highest egg density possible, I think, and the ability to drop eggs and KCI fast through the opals and mind stones. The Darksteel Citadels are there to turn on opals, and for KCI fodder when going off. I just wish I had more time to dedicate to playtesting.
Legacy: dragon stompy
Pauper: UG madness
MTGO: big_hat
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
The deck is definitely hard to play and sequencing cantrips is a pain in the ass but I have decent turn 3 percentages. I did some testing and then took a break from the deck so from memory I remember having a good WUR control matchup, 60-40 affinity matchup preboard, 50-50 tarmo-twin (favored unless they draw remand), 80-20 anything fair like junk midrange.
Sounds interesting. Do you want to post a list?
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
2 Cloud Key
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Banefire
3 Chromatic Sphere
4 Terrarion
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ichor wellspring
4 Prophetic Prism
2 Ancient Stirrings
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mox Opal
4 Mind Stone
1 Codex Shredder
2 Torpor Orb
2 Pithing Needle
4 Unravel the Aether
3 Brushland
2 Defense Grid
The numbers are almost certainly wrong. Cloud key has been an okay accelerant/faux land drop but does not do enough mid-combo. I'll probably try replacing it with stirrings next. With the board, I stayed away from artifacts that are not at least mana neutral when comboing, that means that our hate peaces can all come down the turn before we win off of a nut draw. Might want 1 more Open the Vaults.
The mulligan plan is to keep anything that can get to 2 mana on turn 2. At that point there is enough live draws that manascrew is unlikely.
I've skewed the deck to try to go off from the least resources possible and haven't actually been keeping up with the lists on this forum so maybe this kind of stuff has been tried and rejected before.
Let me know what you think
Having played both Cloud Key and Etherium Sculptor, the key does not compare. The cost is higher and no chump block option in the waning turns before combo in the face of a non-flying threat.
Four Terrarion at the same time as three Chromatic Sphere is questionable. Though I have no special love for the Sphere when compared to the Star, Terrarion's similarity to the Star is superficial at best. The comes into tapped is a card value drain from which it cannot be saved. Then, the double colored mana source is a double-edged sword: The benefit gained late game is equalized by the added complexity early game. What makes it worse? I love Terrarion's artwork for the similarity to the Star. There was a brief moment when I thought about trading the Sphere out for Terrarion completely. Then, I ran it. That moment is now fading from my memory.
Gitaxian Probe MD makes me a tad lusty until I see the cost; Codex shredder and Spine of Ish Sah banished to the SB. Important playlines and basic mechanics will truly suffer. I just don't have the room in Krak Eggs, or I would love the Probe for its built in Intel factor. Got a counter? No?! Awesome, comboing off now!
We could debate the value of running two Emrakul's; card slot value, increased opening hand risk and graveyard killing card mechanic. But, if you want to draw one sooner a second is the path to that.