So I cant find many threads that are running BG colors without lily and or goyf.
It looks like if I want those colors I have to run those two cards or it won't be viable.
Goyf is overpowering and insane,sure I'd love to run it but it's way to expensive,and worst part is it can fit into pretty much ANY green deck and it's a house!Ive proxied it and just slammed it into crap builds and it made them dangerous,every one of them!That card is way more broken than deathrite shaman ever was.
lily is a crazy walker and again in almost every black deck as goyf is in green.You ask about suggestions and everyone always says if you want to be competitive you have to run lily.Ive been told several times to give up asking for help with decks in those colors if I'm not going to pick up goyf and lily,whats that about???
Really the only chance to play those colors is if I go with a deck that isn't even tier 2.
I can't believe that just two cards can define whether the decks are viable,if you run lily and goyf in ANY deck it will be potentially top level,thats ridiculous!
I have a few tier status decks and a few old tier decks but I love to brew new things,i am constantly making new decks and combos to try and when it comes to BG I get told the same thing,i need lily and goyf,whats worse is now people aren't giving reasons why other than its "lily a goyf,nuf said"! Really!Thats it,thats all people say.
Now I'm not saying anything about banning anything here but I am a little appalled at how nobody is willing to consider variants without those two cards in it.Wheres the brewing?
So I want to build brews without those cards in them,but there is no outside support these days for that it seems.
Still use the top decks but try other cards and see what can be done.And as such,if any of those cards did end up getting banned then the decks wouldn't be dead in the water.
So am I out of luck to run those colors?I think the top decks have other strategies left to be discovered but nobody is willing to go without goyf and lily.
If someone has sway in a forum they can introduce the idea and maybe set it off but a nobody suggesting that doesn't even get responded to and if they are they are told to go to budget forums.
So my thoughtseize and abrupt decay?What about the pain lands?the fetches?slaughter pact? How is that BUDGET???I've got plenty invested to be far beyond budget so why am I being told to go there if I don't buy lily a goyf???
Thanks for reading the rant and if anyone has any pull I'd love to read some pros talking seriosly about options without those cards about the top decks in the threads.
In the end, cards that "keep" their value are the kind of cards you can put your money into, as you can sell them just as easy whenever you need the cash.
If you dont want to buy them, just replace them by cards that do a good job regardless and fit the slot.
Dont want goyf ? Just play Scavenging Ooze , its even better in the mirror and will do some job against other decks.
Dont have Lili ? Simply play more Maelstrom Pulse (which beats them and other planeswalkers).
The deck becomes different and if you want to fully maximize a deck against a metagame, you need the specific cards.
But to get a deck running and working, you certainly dont need all the cards, if they arent completly without replacement (and thats combo deck material).
While at some point there might be a more consistent pairing of cards to go along with black 1cmc discard spells, right now Tarmogoyf is the best creature with which to follow-up the discard, and liliana is the best spell to force a top-deck war and answer the board.
You're free to brew in any way you want.. The problem is that there is very little reason to run a different curve when your strategy starts with turn 1 discard. "I can't afford them" while valid, is a budget concern not a strategy concern, which is why directing that sort of brewing to the budget forum is valid.
I understand the price/availability issues, but their price/availability does not negate the strategic importance of those cards to "The Rock".
edit: Also, Deathrite Shaman < Tarmogoyf. I would think there would be few who agree with your assertion that Goyf is the better card of the two.
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Modern Decks
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Can't you just play Abzan Company? It's a Tier 1 BGx deck that doesn't use either.
Now, if you want to play BGx Midrange then yeah, you're probably out of luck. But every format has staples, and the more specific you get in your preferences, the more you have to play those cards. For instance, if I want to play red-based aggro, I'm going to need Goblin Guide. If I want to play reactive blue-based decks, I need Snapcaster. That's no truer in Modern than it is in most competitive formats.
Its the discussion that's getting tiresome,I always get the same answer to run those to cards or go to a budget build.
I have tron,delver,merfolk,dredge,affinity,sisters,Gw aura(bogleless),elves, 8rack, stax ,RW norin and burn,ive plenty invested and CAN get goyf or lily but to be honest I think they will get banned so im trying to get ahead of it.
DRS was banned and I want to brew using those colors but again nobody wants to talk if I don't run those two cards.
And yes I agree,goyf is FAR more powerful than DRS ever was yet it didn't get the hammer.The reasoning was it was too powerful,well goyf is what?How many decks that run that color combo don't run goyf that are competitive? I think it's short lived.
I'm not trying to build a rock deck or anything like that, Ive had some ideas,like a "hate more" idea using disruption, removal and discard very heavily with hooting mandrills and gurmag angler as the main creatures and I can't get any serious talk without being told I belong in budget or in some cases to not even bother if I don't run those two cards.
All my cards are paper.Ive never been on mtgo and I have heavy,heavy investments into this awesome game so why am I being told to go to budget when it's obvious that I can afford the BEST cards!?
Legacy...now I have some serious cash invested there and haven't touched them in years!Moxes,the old dual lands and it goes on,i sell ONE card and there's my playset of goyfs,one other card and there's a set of lilys.And I get told I belong in budget...
Like I said in my original post,theres a lack of brewing and in certain colors people are not interested about talking if I don't want to get them,like when I got told to run goyf and lily, "nuf said",what kind of an answer is that!?
Ok so I run goyf,how does that help with angler and mandrills? Add in GY hate and he's useless in that kind of a build so why was it even suggested and why was I dismissed entirely on not one but three diffrent sites all because I didn't want goyf.
I've tried on and off since DRS was banned to brew something new and have been insulted,bad mouthed,told I don't belong or to go to budget.
And why does it have to be a net deck???yes alright,we have to face the top decks,but if I have ALL the cards for those colors that are staples other than goyf or lily then I have the cards for a top quality possibility.
My rant is because of the lack of brewing in that color combo that isn't already a tier deck and the insults that come with it.
Thanks for reading and happy brewing.
you can definitely build BG and not be married to goyf and liliana. your example of a delve based creature deck is a good one. i don't know who you keep talking to but you shouldn't listen to close-minded magic players who only ever netdeck. some see a jund list do well in a tournament and assume there is no other deck within those 3 colors that doesn't play 4x of your aforementioned cards. i would rather experiment and fail and be told i was wrong than blindly sleeve up a 75 that won a tournament. it feels lazy and almost even like plagiarizing someone else's idea in my eyes. but creativity, experimentation, and innovation are more important to me than results so maybe you shouldn't listen to me either.
goyf won't be banned because contrary to what you said, it is not too strong. it is just one of the most if not the most efficient creature ever printed for it's cost. lili won't get banned for the same reason. the unbanning of ancestral vision made her a lot worse. normally even to favorable games of attrition with jund/junk vs. blue control decks are now probably slightly unfavorable just because you can reload with vision and make liliana +1's much more detrimental to the BGx player.
Pick up Grim Flayer and the new Liliana. It's only a matter of time before modern/legacy players realize they are equally good if not better in some situations/MUs.
All my cards are paper.Ive never been on mtgo and I have heavy,heavy investments into this awesome game so why am I being told to go to budget when it's obvious that I can afford the BEST cards!?
Legacy...now I have some serious cash invested there and haven't touched them in years!Moxes,the old dual lands and it goes on,i sell ONE card and there's my playset of goyfs,one other card and there's a set of lilys.And I get told I belong in budget...
Other parts of your rant aside, this is a ridiculous stance. The budget subs don't have anything to do with your ability to afford the cards, nor should they. How would you even measure something like that? They have to do with whether you're making card choices for anything other than strategic reasons. If you don't want to buy Goyf and Lili for whatever reason, that's fine, but not wanting to buy a card isn't a strategic reason for not including it in a deck. I doubt anyone trying to direct you to the budget forum is trying to call your income into doubt, they're just trying to limit the amount of noise in a thread about a particular deck running the cards you don't want to buy. You also need to remember that you're on the internet. It's not obvious that you can afford the best cards. If you didn't explicitly say that in this thread, no one here would know that was the case. People on message boards typically don't know your life or your card collection.
The complaints about brewing are pretty long running but shouldn't be a surprise. If you're on a forum dedicated to competitive magic, you're talking with people who want to win. Adapting a successful deck gets you to that point a lot faster than the brewing process does. You can certainly brew and you can find people who are willing to work with you if your ideas are good, but there are going to be a lot more people who aren't interested and who are going to stick with the known quantity. Brewing takes time and money for relatively little reward.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Goyf isn't that special. It kills your opponent somewhat quickly and doesn't die to bolt, but there isn't a lot else to say about it. Many of modern's best green decks want nothing to do with it. Personally, I wish the card was $5 so that budget zoo decks would be more attainable for new players. I see no reason why wotc would ever ban the card.
Lily is a much more powerful card, but has an obvious weakness, since she can just be attacked. The fact that people play stuff like Obstinate Baloth just to deal with her is a little worrying, but still I see no reason why she would be banned.
If you want to build a golgari deck without these cards just because you don't like them or can't afford them, go right ahead. But that won't change the fact that they still might be correct for your deck to play. You can also build a blue deck without snapcaster, or a red deck without bolt-- sometimes those staples belong in your list, and sometimes they do not.
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Currently Playing...
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
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If you can't buy goyf, go with Eldrazi. They're always big mean and dangerous. 4 Matter Reshapers, 4 TKS, 4 Reality Smashers are more than enough for most decks. Toss in 2 oozes, 4 Malestrom Pulse, 4 Abrupt Decay, some discard, some other spot removal, and you have yourself a deck. With so much sorcery and instants, you can also play gurmag angular as a 1 or 2. Toss in a few wasteland stranglers and even a faerie macabre to help with exiling.
Allowing yourself to be told that you NEED x and y card in order to play such and such colors is your own fault. Getting upset about it is just funny.
Someone decided to play a UR deck focused on an abundance of instants and sorceries WITHOUT snapcaster. UR Kiln Fiend was created.
Wizards told Eldrazi players they could no longer use their expensive Eyes. Bant Eldrazi emerged.
Imagine if the reaction to being told they couldn't play their decks without X and Y were like yours. These decks would never have existed.
So chin up, brew hard, go to the FNM, get trashed, rinse and repeat. A wise player told me that if you don't netdeck, you've got no brain. But if you don't brew either, you've got no heart. My latest brew is a Twinless Twin that has a turn 2 win. It even runs Carven Caryatid! Can you imagine the faces of the netdeckers when I told them what I was building? And yet I've pushed the deck to a 60% win rate over about thirty matches. And I'm not done tuning yet.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I'm running this atm, and its working out so far. I need a little more testing and SB tweaks, but, Sylvan Advocate Is a pretty good replacement to Gofy if you hit all your land drops (which helps if you run Courser of Kruphix, which I do).
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Modern:
Death's Shadow - Living End - Eldrazi Tron
Bx Devotion runs without Goyf, even with a green splash. I run it with LotV, but many don't, and opt for the new Liliana.
You could also try a scavenge deck with Varolz, the Scar-Striped, Death's Shadow, and other high P/T low casting cost creatures like Force of Savagery. I played this deck until Gray Merchant came out. It's grindy, but has a combo-ish win con.
And the thing is, after trading into them (Goyf/Lily) and playing them...there are plenty of things that trump them. They are just hyper efficient and good at what they do. Modern allows for exactly a million (yes, exactly) other things that can break the game open.
I played a BUG list (also had Goyf) but Push/Snap/Push...well it wrecked me pretty hard.
Price is always a problem in Modern decks because wizards of the coast didn't always print such massive quantities of cards and had such massive pack openings. Basically the entire Timespiral block and the Folklore blocks of Lorwyn and Eventide are nightmare territory incarnate because they were printed during a time where magic wasn't very popular and pack openings didn't happen on the same level as even the Mirrodin block, hence why the value on those cards like Gaddock Teeg are so massive. Thankfully, they are going to reprint Liliana of the Veil in the upcoming modern masters, but Goyf is going to need at least two more printings before his price starts to come down significantly and settle in the double digits instead of the triple digits.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
One of greens strenghs is having bigger creatures for the cost you pay. Goyf is the bets in class for this.
One of blacks best strenghs is killing creatures, discarding hands. Liliana is the best in the class for this.
All you need to do is find a deck that plays on other black and green strenghs then the mentioned. Green resillience and mana exeleration, with black controll/death affinaty gets abused in death cloud for instance. A nice budget deck.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
It looks like if I want those colors I have to run those two cards or it won't be viable.
Goyf is overpowering and insane,sure I'd love to run it but it's way to expensive,and worst part is it can fit into pretty much ANY green deck and it's a house!Ive proxied it and just slammed it into crap builds and it made them dangerous,every one of them!That card is way more broken than deathrite shaman ever was.
lily is a crazy walker and again in almost every black deck as goyf is in green.You ask about suggestions and everyone always says if you want to be competitive you have to run lily.Ive been told several times to give up asking for help with decks in those colors if I'm not going to pick up goyf and lily,whats that about???
Really the only chance to play those colors is if I go with a deck that isn't even tier 2.
I can't believe that just two cards can define whether the decks are viable,if you run lily and goyf in ANY deck it will be potentially top level,thats ridiculous!
I have a few tier status decks and a few old tier decks but I love to brew new things,i am constantly making new decks and combos to try and when it comes to BG I get told the same thing,i need lily and goyf,whats worse is now people aren't giving reasons why other than its "lily a goyf,nuf said"! Really!Thats it,thats all people say.
Now I'm not saying anything about banning anything here but I am a little appalled at how nobody is willing to consider variants without those two cards in it.Wheres the brewing?
So I want to build brews without those cards in them,but there is no outside support these days for that it seems.
Still use the top decks but try other cards and see what can be done.And as such,if any of those cards did end up getting banned then the decks wouldn't be dead in the water.
So am I out of luck to run those colors?I think the top decks have other strategies left to be discovered but nobody is willing to go without goyf and lily.
If someone has sway in a forum they can introduce the idea and maybe set it off but a nobody suggesting that doesn't even get responded to and if they are they are told to go to budget forums.
So my thoughtseize and abrupt decay?What about the pain lands?the fetches?slaughter pact? How is that BUDGET???I've got plenty invested to be far beyond budget so why am I being told to go there if I don't buy lily a goyf???
Thanks for reading the rant and if anyone has any pull I'd love to read some pros talking seriosly about options without those cards about the top decks in the threads.
You dont need to copy a list.
In the end, cards that "keep" their value are the kind of cards you can put your money into, as you can sell them just as easy whenever you need the cash.
If you dont want to buy them, just replace them by cards that do a good job regardless and fit the slot.
Dont want goyf ? Just play Scavenging Ooze , its even better in the mirror and will do some job against other decks.
Dont have Lili ? Simply play more Maelstrom Pulse (which beats them and other planeswalkers).
The deck becomes different and if you want to fully maximize a deck against a metagame, you need the specific cards.
But to get a deck running and working, you certainly dont need all the cards, if they arent completly without replacement (and thats combo deck material).
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You're free to brew in any way you want.. The problem is that there is very little reason to run a different curve when your strategy starts with turn 1 discard. "I can't afford them" while valid, is a budget concern not a strategy concern, which is why directing that sort of brewing to the budget forum is valid.
I understand the price/availability issues, but their price/availability does not negate the strategic importance of those cards to "The Rock".
edit: Also, Deathrite Shaman < Tarmogoyf. I would think there would be few who agree with your assertion that Goyf is the better card of the two.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Now, if you want to play BGx Midrange then yeah, you're probably out of luck. But every format has staples, and the more specific you get in your preferences, the more you have to play those cards. For instance, if I want to play red-based aggro, I'm going to need Goblin Guide. If I want to play reactive blue-based decks, I need Snapcaster. That's no truer in Modern than it is in most competitive formats.
I have tron,delver,merfolk,dredge,affinity,sisters,Gw aura(bogleless),elves, 8rack, stax ,RW norin and burn,ive plenty invested and CAN get goyf or lily but to be honest I think they will get banned so im trying to get ahead of it.
DRS was banned and I want to brew using those colors but again nobody wants to talk if I don't run those two cards.
And yes I agree,goyf is FAR more powerful than DRS ever was yet it didn't get the hammer.The reasoning was it was too powerful,well goyf is what?How many decks that run that color combo don't run goyf that are competitive? I think it's short lived.
I'm not trying to build a rock deck or anything like that, Ive had some ideas,like a "hate more" idea using disruption, removal and discard very heavily with hooting mandrills and gurmag angler as the main creatures and I can't get any serious talk without being told I belong in budget or in some cases to not even bother if I don't run those two cards.
All my cards are paper.Ive never been on mtgo and I have heavy,heavy investments into this awesome game so why am I being told to go to budget when it's obvious that I can afford the BEST cards!?
Legacy...now I have some serious cash invested there and haven't touched them in years!Moxes,the old dual lands and it goes on,i sell ONE card and there's my playset of goyfs,one other card and there's a set of lilys.And I get told I belong in budget...
Like I said in my original post,theres a lack of brewing and in certain colors people are not interested about talking if I don't want to get them,like when I got told to run goyf and lily, "nuf said",what kind of an answer is that!?
Ok so I run goyf,how does that help with angler and mandrills? Add in GY hate and he's useless in that kind of a build so why was it even suggested and why was I dismissed entirely on not one but three diffrent sites all because I didn't want goyf.
I've tried on and off since DRS was banned to brew something new and have been insulted,bad mouthed,told I don't belong or to go to budget.
And why does it have to be a net deck???yes alright,we have to face the top decks,but if I have ALL the cards for those colors that are staples other than goyf or lily then I have the cards for a top quality possibility.
My rant is because of the lack of brewing in that color combo that isn't already a tier deck and the insults that come with it.
Thanks for reading and happy brewing.
goyf won't be banned because contrary to what you said, it is not too strong. it is just one of the most if not the most efficient creature ever printed for it's cost. lili won't get banned for the same reason. the unbanning of ancestral vision made her a lot worse. normally even to favorable games of attrition with jund/junk vs. blue control decks are now probably slightly unfavorable just because you can reload with vision and make liliana +1's much more detrimental to the BGx player.
Some other decent budget options can be: Pack Rat, Lotleth Troll, Reaper of the Wilds, Sylvan Advocate, Glissa, the Traitor, Catacomb Sifter.
The complaints about brewing are pretty long running but shouldn't be a surprise. If you're on a forum dedicated to competitive magic, you're talking with people who want to win. Adapting a successful deck gets you to that point a lot faster than the brewing process does. You can certainly brew and you can find people who are willing to work with you if your ideas are good, but there are going to be a lot more people who aren't interested and who are going to stick with the known quantity. Brewing takes time and money for relatively little reward.
Lily is a much more powerful card, but has an obvious weakness, since she can just be attacked. The fact that people play stuff like Obstinate Baloth just to deal with her is a little worrying, but still I see no reason why she would be banned.
If you want to build a golgari deck without these cards just because you don't like them or can't afford them, go right ahead. But that won't change the fact that they still might be correct for your deck to play. You can also build a blue deck without snapcaster, or a red deck without bolt-- sometimes those staples belong in your list, and sometimes they do not.
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Allowing yourself to be told that you NEED x and y card in order to play such and such colors is your own fault. Getting upset about it is just funny.
Someone decided to play a UR deck focused on an abundance of instants and sorceries WITHOUT snapcaster. UR Kiln Fiend was created.
Wizards told Eldrazi players they could no longer use their expensive Eyes. Bant Eldrazi emerged.
Imagine if the reaction to being told they couldn't play their decks without X and Y were like yours. These decks would never have existed.
So chin up, brew hard, go to the FNM, get trashed, rinse and repeat. A wise player told me that if you don't netdeck, you've got no brain. But if you don't brew either, you've got no heart. My latest brew is a Twinless Twin that has a turn 2 win. It even runs Carven Caryatid! Can you imagine the faces of the netdeckers when I told them what I was building? And yet I've pushed the deck to a 60% win rate over about thirty matches. And I'm not done tuning yet.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Death's Shadow - Living End - Eldrazi Tron
Standard:
Mono Black Control
Pauper:
Suicide Black
EDH:
Doran, the Siege Tower - The Locust God
You could also try a scavenge deck with Varolz, the Scar-Striped, Death's Shadow, and other high P/T low casting cost creatures like Force of Savagery. I played this deck until Gray Merchant came out. It's grindy, but has a combo-ish win con.
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The great thing about building a deck is fine tuning it for yourself.
BUWAd NauseamBUW-CRAffinityCR-GWBCounters CompanyGWB-BRGDredgeBRG-CWEldrazi and TaxesCW-CEldrazi TronC-BRGJund ShiftBRG-BRGJundBRG-CLantern ControlC-UTronU-RWGNaya BurnRWG-RUStormRU-UTaking TurnsU
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I played a BUG list (also had Goyf) but Push/Snap/Push...well it wrecked me pretty hard.
Spirits
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
One of blacks best strenghs is killing creatures, discarding hands. Liliana is the best in the class for this.
All you need to do is find a deck that plays on other black and green strenghs then the mentioned. Green resillience and mana exeleration, with black controll/death affinaty gets abused in death cloud for instance. A nice budget deck.
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My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
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