Historically a pillar of the Modern format, and one of its greatest "police-decks," Jund wins games by disrupting the opponent's gameplan. After enough one-for-ones, it draws a bomb (Tarmogoyf, Scooze, Liliana) and cleans up the mess. A variety of other attrition-based strategies exist in the format, at least to a degree (i.e. Smallpox, UWR), but none boast the success, endurance, and overall resilience of BGx.
This strategy just doesn't work if opponents can tap Island, exile away those cards you Thoughtseized, and draw 3. I posit here that the existence (and the future prevalence) of Delvecards heralds the end of BGx and other control decks unless they splash blue for Delve themselves.
Post-Khans, I see the format splitting up into two camps.
DELVE DECKS
- Combo decks that abuse Delve (UR Storm, Scapeshift, Jeskai Ascendancy)
- Delve-based control strategies (UWR, BUG)
- REACTIVE aggro decks (with disruption) that abuse Delve spells (Delver of Secrets)
NON-DELVE DECKS
- Ultra-fast aggro decks that ignore card advantage (Burn, Bogles, Affinity)
- PROACTIVE aggro decks (with disruption) that fight Delve spells (featuring Spirit of the Labyrinth or Gaddock Teeg)
Given this model, the meta shifts significantly. Control decks without Blue can't make it at all. Combo decks without Blue should be fast enough to race 10 Mana Leaks. Aggressive decks without Delve must actively combat it or drown in a sea of flashed-back Lightning Bolts.
If Delve decks prove oppressive, Wizards might have to issue a ban; if not, the format gets closer to Legacy in that Blue gets some universally powerful card draw. Nobody can argue against how fun it is to Delve 7. The ban question in particular is a complicated one, though - if they take Cruise, players will just switch to DTT, so they'd have to ban both. Maybe we'll get Bloodbraid Elf back to give other colors some powerful card advantage.
What do you think? I'd like us to cultivate a serious, friendly discussion about Delve's impact on Modern. We all love this format dearly, and for better or for worse, it's being shaken up a whole lot. So let's talk about it!
Mod note:
Do not discuss bans in this thread.
The Modern subforum rules prohibit ban talk outside of the official thread. Anyone who does talk about bans here is getting a warning
-ktkenshinx-
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
First: We can disrupt those spells too and as long as they can´t cast them out of their graveyard, it´s fine. Second: There are plenty of cards to shut off the graveyard like Rest in PeaceAnafenza, the Foremost(not the best card) etc. can turn those Delve-Spells into overcoasted draw-spells. Third: Deathrite Shaman unban (it´s just a dream i know).
My point is, at the moment the format is learning to handle those new cards but as soon as it learned it, those cards will not be that overpowered that BGX dies. There are plenty of ways to handle delve und BGX will adapt to handle it.
Decks that run Delve cards will also run Snapcaster Mage. BGx loses its best threats with a Rest In Peace in play, and casting a 2-mana splashed enchantment that does nothing to affect the board isn't something I think they'd want to do. It's possible BGx will develop tools to deal with Delve, but I certainly can't think of any. You even admitted yourself that Anafenza wasn't good enough. Do you have some other suggestions? It seems like you're saying Thoughtseize should cover it, but I really don't think that'll do the job.
On DRS: that wouldn't change anything, he's amazing with Delve spells.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
As much as I hate jund and hope it DOES die, I see at worst the BGx shell just going blue and running cruise (though that does conflict with bob so I could be very very wrong) Jund may go up and down in popularity (look at it and junk) but the core BGx shell is just too strong to die.
Like I said, I think the only way for BGx to survive is to splash U for Delve. That means cutting Bob and at that point it actually becomes a different deck. Cutting Confidant removes your susceptibility to Lightning Bolt, too, which will probably show up even more to deal with the influx of Delver.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Like I said, I think the only way for BGx to survive is to splash U for Delve. That means cutting Bob and at that point it actually becomes a different deck. Cutting Confidant removes your susceptibility to Lightning Bolt, too, which will probably show up even more to deal with the influx of Delver.
I don't think it becomes THAT different, this does selfishly give me hope for my BUG delver deck though haha.
Boo-hoo the single most oppressive deck in the format had card get printed that doesn't work well with it. BGx isn't going to die it just has to live in a world that can rebound against its degenerate discard plays. BGx didn't police the format it defined it; with out cheap card draw other fair decks couldn't exist against it.
I will be somewhat glad if these cards make other decks viable options. BGx was the closest to a straight legacy deck in the format its shell is just that strong. If you playing thoughtsieze OK liliana doest auto beat every other non combo deck then good.
I am also glad that any BGU deck will likely look different as gofy and ooze don't play great with cruise. I also like that these delve draw spells punish discard specifically as it was oppressive. The lack of card draw near the level of power of thoughseize or iok is pretty much what locked BGx as 51% favorite against any deck not playing them.
BGx isn't dead its just now other things will be allowed to live
UR Storm cannot support Delve cards. Past in Flames and Pyromancer Ascension go up in arms and quit when you exile your graveyard mid-game, pre-combo to Draw 3. Maybe some new PA deck can rise with Cruise, but PiF hates Delve forever.
Back when I tested Ancestral Vision, I found that Pod could ignore opposing CA surprisingly well. It doesn't care that opponents Drew 3--it only cares that opponents drew 3 removal spells or 2-3 game-winners. I predict that Pod will survive the post-KTK meta (though wounded and warped because of Ascendancy Storm--but it will profit from Ascendancy Storm's existence because both decks share Turn 1 openings).
With that being said, I predict a huge drop in Bogles, Merfolk, and GW Hatebears because Ascendancy Storm is just that good. Bogles does have the best Burn match-up of the 3, but the latest whispers I hear are of Burn picking up Deflecting Palm, which rocks Bogles, dudes with Cranial Plating, Infect some of the time, Ad Nauseam's Lightning Storm, Wurmcoil Engine, and Ascendancy Storm's Flesh // Blood...(of course, Deflecting Palm is rotten against Scapeshift, UR Storm, UW Tron, Pod, and more, so pick your poison...)
Bob and Liliana generate pretty good CA for BGx, so I wouldn't count it out just yet. Fighting through multiple Delve draw spells is just brutal, though.
UR Storm cannot support Delve cards. Past in Flames and Pyromancer Ascension go up in arms and quit when you exile your graveyard mid-game, pre-combo to Draw 3. Maybe some new PA deck can rise with Cruise, but PiF hates Delve forever.
Back when I tested Ancestral Vision, I found that Pod could ignore opposing CA surprisingly well. It doesn't care that opponents Drew 3--it only cares that opponents drew 3 removal spells or 2-3 game-winners. I predict that Pod will survive the post-KTK meta (though wounded and warped because of Ascendancy Storm--but it will profit from Ascendancy Storm's existence because both decks share Turn 1 openings).
Obviously, a current incarnation of UR Storm can't run Cruise. Scapeshift is another deck that doesn't run it. But I think these decks will adjust so they can and resultantly force attrition strategies without Delve to the format's fringes.
I've spoken my piece; all we can do is wait and see what happens.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
If this change causes Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant to drop in price, I'm all for it. I own a playset of both and am sad to see so many of my friends unable to play with those cards because they are too expensive.
This won't affect their price in a material way. Only a meaningful reprint will do that. But having said that, if a reprint isn't coming then relevant tools to combat high priced cards is the next best answer. I think graveyard hate is just so prevalent that hopefully this represents an adjustment more than anything else.
For me, if they keep all this blue draw, they should give other colors some library manipulation/card advantage. Sensei's Divining top would be awesome, but then counterbalance would need to be banned.
To be fair, for years BGx has been casting Thoughtseize against decks running Serum Visions. TC definitely pulls those Visions decks into a lead, so the question is whether the Thoughtseize decks can develop some tech that lets them keep up.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think they just bring the Blue decks in line with BGx decks rather than let them dominate BGx. BGx will still have the advantage early game but blue gains a massive boost late game. BGx certainly isn't dead though, not by a long shot.
Isn't the whole point of BGx to have a massive late game?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What I meant is they aim to "grind opponents out" and then clean up with a big threat. Delve spells make grinding anyone out impossible. I think you're right, BGx has to find an cheap + efficient (read: not Scooze) answer to Delve or risk extinction.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Interesting article and I think I have to agree. In a testcase against BGx, my partner simply trashed me by casting multiple treasure cruises. Liliana is outright death against that power. The analogy with legacy is spot on, blue will change from the best supporting colour into the colour to beat.
I feel that a lot of T2 decks will decline now. I can see GW hatebears and mono white Death and Taxes resurging though.
Treasure cruise and Dig Through Time harm the format more than the coming of Jeskai Ascendancy and I expect we will soon be able to feel this happen. An already strong combination of colours is able to take advantage from this: UR. UR already was the best combination and now even more so as there are hardly any decks being able to put up the same amount of cycling than these AND being able to cast cruises/DTT T3 at U or UU.
@AK: Thanks for the read, my thought exactly (although I doubt the bogles ). It was me (TG) you was playing, but apparently the second crash was permanent. Thanks for the matches!
@LEH. I see where you are coming from, but testing against the 'new' Delver still makes me thing otherwise. I am a little worried. BGx is a very good deck, but I wouldn't be that surprised if Jund will shy away from a solid T1 status within the next few months.
Yeah, now that burn doesn't need black for DRS it seems like a Jeskai burn build with 12+fetches, 3-4 cruise and maybe some Deflecting Palm in the board would be well positioned.
I've got to assume Swiftspear is better in Cruise builds than non cruise builds as well.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
This thread, like many others, shows me that the Modern community is scared to innovate. As primarily a brewer I love when formats experience a huge shift. The best part of these 2 cars is that it completely overshadows the introduction of the new fetches. I believe if left go the format would stabilize as something much more diverse then what we see now.
It also seems like people are screaming for bans because decks they paid a ton of money for are now worse. It's going to happen and people need to be willing to adapt.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
To be fair, Blue has probably been one of the worst colors in modern for a while now. It really only sees play in a couple decks Twin being the most notable. I think Blue needed a bit of a push to bring the bar up in modern. Wizards banned all of the other efficient draw spells.
I'm adding a note to the OP as a reminder. The Modern subforum rules prohibit ban talk outside of the official thread. Anyone who does talk about bans here is getting a warning
I should add that there are so many ways to talk about Delve and BGx without talking about bans. It is interesting purely from a metagame perspective (how do decks shift around new cards?), a strategic perspective (how does the BGx shell adapt to this change?), and a gameplay perspective (what play lines matter more or less in games?). Everything does not have to be ban-this or ban-that, but if you want to talk about bans, the official thread is the place to go.
This thread, like many others, shows me that the Modern community is scared to innovate. As primarily a brewer I love when formats experience a huge shift. The best part of these 2 cars is that it completely overshadows the introduction of the new fetches. I believe if left go the format would stabilize as something much more diverse then what we see now.
It also seems like people are screaming for bans because decks they paid a ton of money for are now worse. It's going to happen and people need to be willing to adapt.
What are you talking about? All I do is brew. I'm not complaining here, I'm just very excited about the metagame shift. I think we all are.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Snapcaster mage, remand, cryptic and clique are far from bad. Add in vedalkean shackles and it starts getting playable. Blue needs a supporting color, but that won't change. I'd say white is close to being the weaker color IMHO, but path to exile is very strong. White has insane sideboard cards, and brings a lot of hate, but in power level terms, I'd say blue is way above white.
Fair. But I think both colors are long over due for a little push in the modern community. Maybe more synergy as all of the cards you listed are more about raw power than interaction.
BGx is down in numbers due to burn, not a draw 3 cantrip. Once the meta really adjusts to burn BGx will come back. The meta is shifting but that doesn't mean the Jund or BG Rock or Junk are suddenly not worth playing. They just aren't well positioned right now. If these decks see a down tick in play you better believe that Twin and Storm will start being played in larger numbers, leading to a meta where the BGx shell can really do some damage. Bg can improve their burn match up as well if they want to play Courser, Finks, and as always, main deck Sooze. Bob is a liability in the match up, so this might be one of the few were you'll see bob getting sideboarded.
I think the problem that BGx has is that the lists will need to be more refined and tuned. BG plus anything was playable in modern, I think that the most optimal 3rd color splash will rise up and BG players will likely get punished when they deviate to far from that.
Personally as ur delver player BGW is the hardest to beat. Seems like it would help the most against the accendecy deck
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Historically a pillar of the Modern format, and one of its greatest "police-decks," Jund wins games by disrupting the opponent's gameplan. After enough one-for-ones, it draws a bomb (Tarmogoyf, Scooze, Liliana) and cleans up the mess. A variety of other attrition-based strategies exist in the format, at least to a degree (i.e. Smallpox, UWR), but none boast the success, endurance, and overall resilience of BGx.
This strategy just doesn't work if opponents can tap Island, exile away those cards you Thoughtseized, and draw 3. I posit here that the existence (and the future prevalence) of Delve cards heralds the end of BGx and other control decks unless they splash blue for Delve themselves.
Post-Khans, I see the format splitting up into two camps.
DELVE DECKS
- Combo decks that abuse Delve (UR Storm, Scapeshift, Jeskai Ascendancy)
- Delve-based control strategies (UWR, BUG)
- REACTIVE aggro decks (with disruption) that abuse Delve spells (Delver of Secrets)
NON-DELVE DECKS
- Ultra-fast aggro decks that ignore card advantage (Burn, Bogles, Affinity)
- PROACTIVE aggro decks (with disruption) that fight Delve spells (featuring Spirit of the Labyrinth or Gaddock Teeg)
Given this model, the meta shifts significantly. Control decks without Blue can't make it at all. Combo decks without Blue should be fast enough to race 10 Mana Leaks. Aggressive decks without Delve must actively combat it or drown in a sea of flashed-back Lightning Bolts.
If Delve decks prove oppressive, Wizards might have to issue a ban; if not, the format gets closer to Legacy in that Blue gets some universally powerful card draw. Nobody can argue against how fun it is to Delve 7. The ban question in particular is a complicated one, though - if they take Cruise, players will just switch to DTT, so they'd have to ban both. Maybe we'll get Bloodbraid Elf back to give other colors some powerful card advantage.
What do you think? I'd like us to cultivate a serious, friendly discussion about Delve's impact on Modern. We all love this format dearly, and for better or for worse, it's being shaken up a whole lot. So let's talk about it!
Mod note:
Do not discuss bans in this thread.
The Modern subforum rules prohibit ban talk outside of the official thread. Anyone who does talk about bans here is getting a warning
-ktkenshinx-
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
On DRS: that wouldn't change anything, he's amazing with Delve spells.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
What I meant about DRS is that if he was unbanned, I'd bet on a DRS-Delve-Goyf deck taking over the format.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I don't think it becomes THAT different, this does selfishly give me hope for my BUG delver deck though haha.
I will be somewhat glad if these cards make other decks viable options. BGx was the closest to a straight legacy deck in the format its shell is just that strong. If you playing thoughtsieze OK liliana doest auto beat every other non combo deck then good.
I am also glad that any BGU deck will likely look different as gofy and ooze don't play great with cruise. I also like that these delve draw spells punish discard specifically as it was oppressive. The lack of card draw near the level of power of thoughseize or iok is pretty much what locked BGx as 51% favorite against any deck not playing them.
BGx isn't dead its just now other things will be allowed to live
With that being said, I predict a huge drop in Bogles, Merfolk, and GW Hatebears because Ascendancy Storm is just that good. Bogles does have the best Burn match-up of the 3, but the latest whispers I hear are of Burn picking up Deflecting Palm, which rocks Bogles, dudes with Cranial Plating, Infect some of the time, Ad Nauseam's Lightning Storm, Wurmcoil Engine, and Ascendancy Storm's Flesh // Blood...(of course, Deflecting Palm is rotten against Scapeshift, UR Storm, UW Tron, Pod, and more, so pick your poison...)
Bob and Liliana generate pretty good CA for BGx, so I wouldn't count it out just yet. Fighting through multiple Delve draw spells is just brutal, though.
I've spoken my piece; all we can do is wait and see what happens.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I feel that a lot of T2 decks will decline now. I can see GW hatebears and mono white Death and Taxes resurging though.
Treasure cruise and Dig Through Time harm the format more than the coming of Jeskai Ascendancy and I expect we will soon be able to feel this happen. An already strong combination of colours is able to take advantage from this: UR. UR already was the best combination and now even more so as there are hardly any decks being able to put up the same amount of cycling than these AND being able to cast cruises/DTT T3 at U or UU.
@AK: Thanks for the read, my thought exactly (although I doubt the bogles ). It was me (TG) you was playing, but apparently the second crash was permanent. Thanks for the matches!
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678I've got to assume Swiftspear is better in Cruise builds than non cruise builds as well.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
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(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
It also seems like people are screaming for bans because decks they paid a ton of money for are now worse. It's going to happen and people need to be willing to adapt.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I'm adding a note to the OP as a reminder. The Modern subforum rules prohibit ban talk outside of the official thread. Anyone who does talk about bans here is getting a warning
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Fair. But I think both colors are long over due for a little push in the modern community. Maybe more synergy as all of the cards you listed are more about raw power than interaction.
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Personally as ur delver player BGW is the hardest to beat. Seems like it would help the most against the accendecy deck