So how did the Nacatl testing go? And I am going to start testing Ancestral Vision right now. If it was unbanned, would anything else in WUR Control change other than it replacing Sphinx's Revelation (if it ended up doing that)?
There was a multi-page argument about AV being played in Twin as well. I read this article from Tiago Chan about a midrange UWR Kiki-Jiki deck. I was thinking that with AV, you could go back to UR and play a more midrange game.
For uninteresting unbans, I'd say Golgari Grave-Troll should be the next card to talk about. From my experience, he hasn't been able to take Dredge(vine) to the next level at all--he's been barely able to budge it.
For interesting unbans, I haven't found Ancestral Vision to be that broken so far. It wasn't even that good in UB Faeries--I swapped it out for Tiago because it was hit-and-miss against Jund (hit when early, miss when late--it's like Bitterblossom) and it sucked against Pod (because it didn't reliably draw into removal). It was better in heavy control decks, though.
What is the best deck that Ancestral Visions goes in and would it be competitive?
UWR Control.
Yes.
What is the best deck that could use the Thopter-Sword combo and would it be competitive?
Tezzeret, UW Tron or a currently nonexistent Next Level Blue deck (Engineered Explosives, Vedalken Shackles, etc).
Maybe, but if you add Chrome Mox it becomes a definite yes.
What decks would Stoneforge Mystic go into if Batterskull were banned?
Perhaps Affinity. Won't happen though.
Do Bloodbraid Elf and JTMS actually 'balance' like people claim?
No comment.
Does Storm still break the T4 Rule if you swapped Grapeshot with some rituals or cantrips?
No. You can even ban Grapeshot and unban the other two rituals and Storm would still be OK.
What is the best deck that Golgari Grave-Troll goes in?
Dredge, of course, but it can't boost either the aggro version with Vengevine or a combo version with Unburial Rites by a lot.
Now that we've had a few major events to shake out the metagame with Born of the Gods and the recent changes to the banned list, I think its time to start talking about testing again and putting together a revised gauntlet.
Pod, Affinity, Twin, and UWR Control are obviously Tier 1 strategies that should be included in a gauntlet of top decks. I'm not sure which Pod variant is the best to test with. Which lists for these decks do you feel are the most representative?
Also Zoo, Jund, Faeries, Storm, Tron and Scapeshift seem to have a notable presence in the format - even if they aren't winning - as 'gotcha' checks that present very lopsided match ups and difficult to deal with scenarios. Should any of those decks (or even others) be included in a gauntlet of top decks? And if so, which lists?
---
On testing:
It seems to me that GGT is undisputed as the safest choice to come off the banned list, with minimal risk to creating any new decks and only providing a very mild boost to existing DredgeVine or Reanimator strategies.
Instead, it seems the next most logical card to talk about is Ancestral Vision. It has never been a part of the format and was previously banned on account of its performance in Legacy - a trend which has almost completely tailed off with the exception of Shardless BUG, which abuses it in a capacity Modern likely cannot emulate. I believe AV should be the focus for now. Three major points of contention seem to be driving the debate, all of which can be answered by testing:
(1) Would AV slot into existing Tier 1 strategies (like U/W/x Control) in addition to or in lieu of Sphinx's Rev?
(2) Would any of the non-W U/x decks it could slot into (UB Faeries, Blue Moon, BUG?) be helped enough to become Tier 1?
(3) Would the play style AV enables (slow grindy control) be oppressive? (<---this one is more qualitative, but actual impressions and match reports help)
Also Stoneforge Mystic in the absence of Batterskull (in conjunction with Swords and Elbrus) has come up as a point of contention in the Modern Banned List discussion. If you are passionately for or against that one, I encourage you to draw up decklists, use transparent testing with your play group, and post results and impressions here to provide a frame of reference and some hard data. That discussion seems to have tailed off after GP Richmond, but if it pops up again, then looking at decklists and testing might help.
---
Just a reminder: this is a place for setting up testing gauntlets, proposing and refining test decklists, and posting results of testing. Discussion of the theory-crafting behind bans should probably be reserved for the other discussion thread.
There was a multi-page argument about AV being played in Twin as well. I read this article from Tiago Chan about a midrange UWR Kiki-Jiki deck. I was thinking that with AV, you could go back to UR and play a more midrange game.
4 Pestermite
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Deceiver Exarch
4 Splinter Twin
3 Electrolyze
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
+some Mana Leak, Remand, Serum Visions?
I think its prudent to wait until after the Pro Tour to really start testing (so there's a known metagame to use in the gauntlet).
Here are a few ideas that I think could be interesting:
Speculate less. Test more.
For interesting unbans, I haven't found Ancestral Vision to be that broken so far. It wasn't even that good in UB Faeries--I swapped it out for Tiago because it was hit-and-miss against Jund (hit when early, miss when late--it's like Bitterblossom) and it sucked against Pod (because it didn't reliably draw into removal). It was better in heavy control decks, though.
UWR Control.
Yes.
What is the best deck that could use the Thopter-Sword combo and would it be competitive?
Tezzeret, UW Tron or a currently nonexistent Next Level Blue deck (Engineered Explosives, Vedalken Shackles, etc).
Maybe, but if you add Chrome Mox it becomes a definite yes.
What decks would Stoneforge Mystic go into if Batterskull were banned?
Perhaps Affinity. Won't happen though.
Do Bloodbraid Elf and JTMS actually 'balance' like people claim?
No comment.
Does Storm still break the T4 Rule if you swapped Grapeshot with some rituals or cantrips?
No. You can even ban Grapeshot and unban the other two rituals and Storm would still be OK.
What is the best deck that Golgari Grave-Troll goes in?
Dredge, of course, but it can't boost either the aggro version with Vengevine or a combo version with Unburial Rites by a lot.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Now that we've had a few major events to shake out the metagame with Born of the Gods and the recent changes to the banned list, I think its time to start talking about testing again and putting together a revised gauntlet.
Pod, Affinity, Twin, and UWR Control are obviously Tier 1 strategies that should be included in a gauntlet of top decks. I'm not sure which Pod variant is the best to test with. Which lists for these decks do you feel are the most representative?
Also Zoo, Jund, Faeries, Storm, Tron and Scapeshift seem to have a notable presence in the format - even if they aren't winning - as 'gotcha' checks that present very lopsided match ups and difficult to deal with scenarios. Should any of those decks (or even others) be included in a gauntlet of top decks? And if so, which lists?
---
On testing:
It seems to me that GGT is undisputed as the safest choice to come off the banned list, with minimal risk to creating any new decks and only providing a very mild boost to existing DredgeVine or Reanimator strategies.
Instead, it seems the next most logical card to talk about is Ancestral Vision. It has never been a part of the format and was previously banned on account of its performance in Legacy - a trend which has almost completely tailed off with the exception of Shardless BUG, which abuses it in a capacity Modern likely cannot emulate. I believe AV should be the focus for now. Three major points of contention seem to be driving the debate, all of which can be answered by testing:
(1) Would AV slot into existing Tier 1 strategies (like U/W/x Control) in addition to or in lieu of Sphinx's Rev?
(2) Would any of the non-W U/x decks it could slot into (UB Faeries, Blue Moon, BUG?) be helped enough to become Tier 1?
(3) Would the play style AV enables (slow grindy control) be oppressive? (<---this one is more qualitative, but actual impressions and match reports help)
Also Stoneforge Mystic in the absence of Batterskull (in conjunction with Swords and Elbrus) has come up as a point of contention in the Modern Banned List discussion. If you are passionately for or against that one, I encourage you to draw up decklists, use transparent testing with your play group, and post results and impressions here to provide a frame of reference and some hard data. That discussion seems to have tailed off after GP Richmond, but if it pops up again, then looking at decklists and testing might help.
---
Just a reminder: this is a place for setting up testing gauntlets, proposing and refining test decklists, and posting results of testing. Discussion of the theory-crafting behind bans should probably be reserved for the other discussion thread.
Speculate less. Test more.