Modern Sunrise Combo (Old Primer)

  • #1386
    i have recently put gut shot in my board as an alternate wincon over the usual grapeshot, because it allows you to combo out at the end of your opponents turn against UW without having it on the board. you can loop it by baubling gut shot and then sunrise, and sunrising back both baubles and whatever lotus/lands you use up. it also can help in the early game by burning away a snapcaster that might put you on a faster clock, or respond to a pump spell against infect.
  • #1387
    You can play Gut Shot at instant speed, but you can't play eggs or cantrips. Unless you already have a ton of eggs on the board, I expect you're not going to be able to draw your entire library. Pyrite Spellbomb is still better due to its utility.
  • #1388
    Instead of Silence, has anyone considered targeted discard? A turn one Thoughtseize is effective against more than just counterspells, giving it far more main deck utility. Of course, it is black, so the mana base would need to be modified to accommodate it, which might be a problem due to how the engine works.

    They really need to reprint Cephalid Coliseum. It's the perfect win con for this deck.
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  • #1389
    Discard is unplayable precisely because of the mana base. With zero black sources, you can't cast a discard spell on turn 1.

    This deck also requires heavy blue for Reshape. The obvious solution is to play Sunken Ruins and Darkslick Shores, but the not-so-obvious side effect is that your Ghost Quarters lose effectiveness for every nonbasic land in your deck.
  • #1390
    Quote from izzetmage
    Discard is unplayable precisely because of the mana base. With zero black sources, you can't cast a discard spell on turn 1.

    This deck also requires heavy blue for Reshape. The obvious solution is to play Sunken Ruins and Darkslick Shores, but the not-so-obvious side effect is that your Ghost Quarters lose effectiveness for every nonbasic land in your deck.


    We could increase the fetchland count to 6, add Watery Grave, cut a plains, and still have 6 islands, which is sufficient. The only reason to try and keep the basic count high is that there are less dead cards mid combo. With this set up, the odds of drawing thoughtseize in the opener with no way to cast it is approx. 10%, which is reasonable, when you consider that is the only time it is useless. Silence is dead whenever you aren't playing against counterspelss. About 60%* of the time.

    My main concern with it is the life loss. Turn one Thoughtseize hurts, possibly more us than them. I don't have the data to determine whether not that would cause significant number of games to be lost though, so I would have to test it.

    *data pulled from mtgtop8.com
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  • #1391
    The other issue with basics is that sometimes your mana engine is 2 Ghost Quarters instead of Lotus Bloom. With 8 basics (7 Island + 1 Plains), you have 2-3 combo cycles before it becomes "draw a Reshape or die" (most likely 2 because you may draw a basic while comboing). With 6 (assuming it's turn 4, you have 2 GQs and 2 basics), you only have 1-2.

    Silence has fringe uses against 0 counterspell decks. Let's say you're playing G1 against Tron, on his turn 2 he has nothing yet. On your turn 3, you are confident of comboing off on turn 4, and you have a Silence. You wait for his turn 3 and cast Silence so he can't play anything that can interfere with you (Karn/Relic), then combo off on turn 4. This situation came up in PT: RTR. You can read about it here; it was the very first match that Cifka played.

    EDIT: It also helps against Jund decks that maindeck Jund Charm.
    Last edited by izzetmage: 12/28/2012 8:07:07 AM
  • #1392
    I tried and failed to support discard. Makes me a little sad. I still don't like silence though, and will replace it with basically anything. Currently I am using Pact of Negation in it's place, but that's actually a little worse than silence.
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  • #1393
    Ok I love insane combos, and reading over other stuff on the internet, someone said this deck takes forever to go off once it gets going, reminded me of High Tide in that remark, so I investigated, made a decklist, put it together on cockatrice, tested it out without reading anything about it, and now I'm posting here noting that I am going to obtain this deck on paper, modern is only going to increase as a format in popularity, and I think it's time I get a 2nd modern deck. I will love blowing people's minds playing this when they see how ridiculous it is for those first times

    1 thing I already noticed though, is howcome it doesn't use Ichor Wellspring? reshaping that thing seems awesome! I do have to ask that, though I'm sure there is a reason for it, but I am as new as it gets at this deck since an hour ago I didn't even know anything about it other than I had "heard" of it.

    -edit- Ah nevermind, in going through the thoughts in my head and reading more stuff, it seems the answer to that question is "It doesn't sac itself"
    Last edited by feline_o1: 1/1/2013 7:58:07 PM
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  • #1394
    Quote from feline_o1
    Ok I love insane combos, and reading over other stuff on the internet, someone said this deck takes forever to go off once it gets going, reminded me of High Tide in that remark, so I investigated, made a decklist, put it together on cockatrice, tested it out without reading anything about it, and now I'm posting here noting that I am going to obtain this deck on paper, modern is only going to increase as a format in popularity, and I think it's time I get a 2nd modern deck. I will love blowing people's minds playing this when they see how ridiculous it is for those first times.


    This deck is remarkably similar to High Tide at first, but the lack of any controlling elements makes a huge difference. It's the closest thing though, so I love it anyways.
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  • #1395
    2 questions.

    1) What about wargate can be used as reshape 5-7 or 8. You can fetch another ghost quarter or lotus bloom or even a basic land to thin the deck a bit more.

    2) bitter ordeal? I know someone probably already suggested it but I haven't found the time to read through 93 pages of this yet. I use it as a secondary win con in the unlikely event that I draw my other 3 copies of lotus bloom while going off. Plus it makes a more stylish win con.

    "I play bitter ordeal . Please exile your whole library."
    And epic lulz were had after that match. My cousin really hate me now for doing that. But it was funny.
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  • #1396
    2 questions.

    1) What about wargate can be used as reshape 5-7 or 8. You can fetch another ghost quarter or lotus bloom or even a basic land to thin the deck a bit more.

    2) bitter ordeal? I know someone probably already suggested it but I haven't found the time to read through 93 pages of this yet. I use it as a secondary win con in the unlikely event that I draw my other 3 copies of lotus bloom while going off. Plus it makes a more stylish win con.

    "I play bitter ordeal . Please exile your whole library."
    And epic lulz were had after that match. My cousin really hate me now for doing that. But it was funny.


    1. Wargate does tend to destabilize the mana base somewhat--that's probably the reason we've dropped and picked up the card. KCI can't support it, as its artifact count needs to be high (especially its Egg count) to justify KCI's inclusion, and 4 Darksteel Citadel basically means no more room for green mana-producing lands. The Cifka cantrips version uses cantrips to increase its consistency. It's also fairly icky that you basically need to sink 4 mana into a Wargate just to make it cantrip (the only 0-mana Egg, Horizon Canopy, needs 1 mana to pop it).

    2. Bitter Ordeal is more expensive than Pyrite Spellbomb or Grapeshot, and it still targets (this is why Laboratory Maniac is preferred--time him well and pop a Chromatic Sphere and he will always work--he doesn't target in order to win). We have considered Bitter Ordeal, but now we seem to have dropped it entirely.
  • #1397
    After playing around with Wargate a little, it isn't a bad card, and I could see it being played in a specific build, one that uses Reshape style effects for a toolbox. The deck as it stands now just doesn't need more reshapes though.
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  • #1398
    I've played a bit with the classic version of the deck (Sunny Side Up) and have to say that while it seems really consistent to go off T3-4 uninterrupted, it takes a fairly long time to combo out and actually win a game. I'm concerned about matches going to time and/or irritating the players here locally because of how long it takes. Any words of wisdom regarding this?

    Also, I've noticed I generally end up with a large number of cards in my hand that sit there dead (Lotus Blooms especially). Is there any way to get them out somehow so that they can be used again?
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  • #1399
    Quote from Magicman657
    I've played a bit with the classic version of the deck (Sunny Side Up) and have to say that while it seems really consistent to go off T3-4 uninterrupted, it takes a fairly long time to combo out and actually win a game. I'm concerned about matches going to time and/or irritating the players here locally because of how long it takes. Any words of wisdom regarding this?


    With practice, you can combo out faster. I finally got under 15 minutes, and it's getting better every day (by seconds.) Aside from that, use dice and stuff to keep track of your mana. The less you have to remember, the quicker you will be able to make snap decisions. The last thing I can recommend is casting as many eggs as you can as often as you can. The more eggs on the field, the more you will draw between each sunrise, allowing you to get though your deck with less sunrises. Only do this if time is a concern though.

    Also, I've noticed I generally end up with a large number of cards in my hand that sit there dead (Lotus Blooms especially). Is there any way to get them out somehow so that they can be used again?


    Just put them to side? You only need one lotus bloom to combo, and anything more than two is overkill. If it really bothers you though, Thirst for Knowledge will discard it, allowing you to Conjurer's Bauble it to the bottom your library.

    ----------------------

    Edit:
    There was discussion of Courier's Capsule earlier, on around page seven. I think I will try out two of them main, as the ability to draw two off it could reduce the likelihood of whiffing midcombo. It doesn't appear anything ever came of their conversation, but the card deserves some mention.
    Last edited by NotMyName: 1/2/2013 2:19:28 PM
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  • #1400
    Quote from Magicman657
    ...
    Also, I've noticed I generally end up with a large number of cards in my hand that sit there dead (Lotus Blooms especially). Is there any way to get them out somehow so that they can be used again?


    I've used Ideas Unbound for a while, but I'm likely switching over to See Beyond. I'm just tired of never getting to my end step to discard them to be 'Baubled to the bottom.
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  • #1401
    I've seen singleton Faithless looting. Typically people then shuffle the blooms back in with Conjuror's Bauble after discarding them. Then they can fetch them with that extra Reshape in their hand and get the 1 mana back that they spent on Faithless looting.
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  • #1402
    Quote from Magicman657
    I've played a bit with the classic version of the deck (Sunny Side Up) and have to say that while it seems really consistent to go off T3-4 uninterrupted, it takes a fairly long time to combo out and actually win a game. I'm concerned about matches going to time and/or irritating the players here locally because of how long it takes. Any words of wisdom regarding this?

    Also, I've noticed I generally end up with a large number of cards in my hand that sit there dead (Lotus Blooms especially). Is there any way to get them out somehow so that they can be used again?


    Going to time is a fairly large problem on MTGO (that accounts for some of the popularity of the KCI build and its Banefire). Using Laboratory Maniac as your win con can cut short your combo turn slightly (you no longer need to loop Pyrite Spellbomb). Unlike Banefire or Codex Shredder, Lab Man can be played in any build.

    I tried Explore in Lotus Cobra builds to get lands cards out of hand. It was OK, though it wasn't so hot on the non-combo turns.
  • #1403
    Has anyone tried Disciple of the Vault as a faster win condition?

    "But it dies to removal!"
    Just get to the point where you can combo out at instant speed before playing him.

    "But it doesn't cantrip!"
    True. Would it lead to less losses because you don't run out of time, or more losses because it doesn't cantrip? I'm not sure.
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  • #1404
    Quote from benbuzz790
    Has anyone tried Disciple of the Vault as a faster win condition?

    "But it dies to removal!"
    Just get to the point where you can combo out at instant speed before playing him.

    "But it doesn't cantrip!"
    True. Would it lead to less losses because you don't run out of time, or more losses because it doesn't cantrip? I'm not sure.


    yes 2x MB in a local FNM. sideboard it out if you know they might bring in creature hate. However, even first game, it is easy to remove. (tron, affinity, etc has all 1-2 CMC removal).

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  • #1405
    I have quite a bit of experience with this deck when I was a combo deck in extended in like...2006? I also played a legacy version and it was pretty legit last year. I dabbled in a modern version that fizzled a lot but that was pre-Faiths Reward. I will post a working version soon. I really like Bitter Ordeal as the kill, only downfall was once I did my combo and counted out like 50 something and the guy was running a 70 something card deck.... who the f*** runs a 70 something card deck....
  • #1406
    Quote from Magicman657
    Also, I've noticed I generally end up with a large number of cards in my hand that sit there dead (Lotus Blooms especially). Is there any way to get them out somehow so that they can be used again?


    I'd advise against using discard for the sake of discard, because this deck can draw 5 lands/Blooms while comboing off and still win. If you play Serum Visions in the main, that should be enough to fix your draws, even during the combo turn.

    Sure, with discard you can cast 100% of your spells. But that's unnecessary when you can win with just 90+%. Furthermore, the cost of being able to cast every spell in your deck is playing spells that make you discard - spells that are arguably worse than cantrips.

    Let's say you have a Bloom on the field and you draw one. Will you discard and Bauble the Bloom immediately? No, because this increases the number of dead draws. What about Reshape? Well, you still have 2 more Blooms in the deck, so it's not like you're out of targets. What if you already have 2-3 Blooms? Then it's likely that you don't need to Reshape for one more.

    So...don't play discard.

    Quote from ThisIsNotMyName

    There was discussion of Courier's Capsule earlier, on around page seven. I think I will try out two of them main, as the ability to draw two off it could reduce the likelihood of whiffing midcombo. It doesn't appear anything ever came of their conversation, but the card deserves some mention.


    It sucks. What kills it is having to spend mana to crack it. If you're really desperate for 2-mana eggs, try Kaleidostone, Spreading Seas or Ior Ruin Expedition.
    Personally, in the "extra draw" slots that most people fill with Sleight of Hand, I use 2 Krark-Clan Ironworks and 1 Ichor Wellspring. KCI lets you overload decks with counterspells by giving you enough mana to cast 2 Sunrises in one turn. The 1 Wellspring can be found by Reshape.

    EDIT: Another plus of using KCI is that you can fit 1 Defense Grid in the main against counterspells. Takes up less space than 2 Silence and can be sacced to KCI for mana if your opponent doesn't have counters.
    Last edited by izzetmage: 1/4/2013 2:48:26 AM
  • #1407
    Quote from izzetmage


    It sucks. What kills it is having to spend mana to crack it. If you're really desperate for 2-mana eggs, try Kaleidostone, Spreading Seas or Ior Ruin Expedition.
    Personally, in the "extra draw" slots that most people fill with Sleight of Hand, I use 2 Krark-Clan Ironworks and 1 Ichor Wellspring. KCI lets you overload decks with counterspells by giving you enough mana to cast 2 Sunrises in one turn. The 1 Wellspring can be found by Reshape.

    EDIT: Another plus of using KCI is that you can fit 1 Defense Grid in the main against counterspells. Takes up less space than 2 Silence and can be sacced to KCI for mana if your opponent doesn't have counters.


    I am actually going to test it in wargate build. Here's the list I will be trying out:


    NotMyName's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    1 Breeding Pool
    4 Ghost Quarter
    1 Hallowed Fountain
    8 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Scalding Tarn

    4 Chromatic Sphere
    4 Chromatic Star
    4 Conjurer's Bauble
    1 Courier's Capsule
    2 Elsewhere Flask
    4 Faith's Reward
    3 Lotus Bloom
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Pyrite Spellbomb
    4 Reshape
    4 Second Sunrise
    4 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    3 Wargate
    1 Æther Spellbomb



    I am relying heavily on tutors instead of cantrips. it's a little slower, but has more disruption and in theory, no less consistent. Courier's Capsule is better in this style deck because I can just grab it if I need it.
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  • #1408
    Doesn't look "as consistent". You have 4 eggs that require a net input of mana to draw cards, and 6 counterspells that are completely dead if you draw them while comboing off.

    Conjurer's Capsule is the last thing you want to "grab" with Reshape/Wargate. You need 4/5 mana just to get it out, and 2 mana to crack it. 6 mana for 2 cards? No thanks. Reshaping for Wellspring when you have KCI is 2 mana for 2 cards, much more bang for your buck.
  • #1409
    I often have a huge surplus of mana, and very little draw power. 6 mana to draw 2 isn't such a bad deal if I really need the draw power. Besides, I already reshape for eggs mid combo, might as well get extra draw off it. I'm not trying to kill with fireball.
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  • #1410
    Quote from ThisIsNotMyName
    I often have a huge surplus of mana, and very little draw power. 6 mana to draw 2 isn't such a bad deal if I really need the draw power. Besides, I already reshape for eggs mid combo, might as well get extra draw off it. I'm not trying to kill with fireball.


    No. Kill with Banefire. Besides, the amount of mana you have should be a direct correlation to the number of cards you draw. If it isn't, your deck does not have the correct number of eggs and you should revisit it.
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