My idea for adding Gargadon is -4 Edge of Autumn, +2 Gargadon, +2 Ichor Wellspring. What sucks about Edge is that you don't cycle it until you combo off. With 2 more eggs, you have more opportunities to actually cast something early-game.
Street Wraith doesn't get reanimated by Second Sunrise - Sunrise states that cards put into a graveyard from the battlefield will be reanimated, and cycling Wraith means that it goes from your hand to the graveyard. If you're just using it because 4 Gitaxian Probe is not enough, keep in mind that Wraith and Probe do not fix your draws, and this deck plays no creatures otherwise, making you completely helpless to creature attacks, which will send your life total low enough that a "free" cantrip isn't worth the risk of being put in Bolt range.
Drift over Peer here because Edge is replaced with non-instant/sorcery cards. Gargadon tends to make enough mana anyway.
I suppose Terrarion could be used over Ichor Wellspring, but as mentioned, Gargadon makes load of mana.
So far it seems better than my regular build because the Ichor Wellsprings ensure that I have something to cast, whereas when I played Edge of Autumn sometimes I'd get stuck with 1 egg, 1-2 Edge, no Sunrise hands. With Gargadon, one of the Edges could very well be an Ichor Wellspring.
Cool trick with Gargadon: 1 Gargadon on field, 1 suspended Gargadon. Sac Gargadon to Gargadon, Bauble in the dead don. You get a chance to suspend it again! LOL
haha, look who came over to the gargle side. And you were all skeptical a few pages ago.
I'm working on an instant-speed version with scout's warning, which works awesomely with gargle (see the rulings on quicken). Perhaps a lotus cobra build, since it would help with generating the mana needed to power out a shimmer myr so you can keep ramping up CA. a KCI build might work too (obviously it's a bit simpler since shimmer myr flashes KCI, and provides a sac target) but the initial 7 mana seems like a bit of a bear. Anyway I'll post a list when (if) I get it working.
Well, I guess I've learnt a few things about Gargadon:
1) You can sac multiple lands, unlike Edge of Autumn. This makes Drift of Phantasms stronger, as you can grind out advantage by making mana then tutoring for a Sunrise, instead of trying to draw and make mana at the same time (which is what Edge does).
2) It makes colored mana, which is perfect for Drift of Phantasms. While KCI has Open the Vaults as its redundancy, we have Drift. Drift's advantage is that you can split the cost 3-3 instead of paying 6 at one go.
Having 2 Lotuses and some Drift of Phantasms is practically an insta-win. Having 3 Islands and a Gargadon is pretty much the same.
And one more trick: If you have a suspended Gargadon, a Mox and Bauble on the field and a Mox in hand, you can eat the Mox, Bauble it in, then play the Mox in your hand for 1 extra mana.
I've been testing with Ichor Wellspring as the 2 extra eggs and it's peachy. It draws when it ETB so it can get you a land if you're mana screwed. However, Terrarion might be better as it can fix mana (in case you're forced to go off on lands alone) and can sac itself if you play it early.
Are there any defenses against cards like inquisition of kozilek or duress?
Lots of decks play them and it kinda sucks when they remove an important card for the combo :/
Hey guys Im back! sorry I havent posted in a while here been a rough past few months! BUUUUUT I had some time to think about and test out different decks and things and I should be posting my in-depth findings soon including playing around with Mirror-Mad Phantasm
Hey guys Im back! sorry I havent posted in a while here been a rough past few months! BUUUUUT I had some time to think about and test out different decks and things and I should be posting my in-depth findings soon including playing around with Mirror-Mad Phantasm
Second Sunrise won't return cards put into graveyard with mirror-mad phantasm, so why would you want that card?
Mirror's effect looks interesting, however, it also looks quite slow. It costs 7 mana to activate its ability, let alone another 6 to cast open the vaults. Hmmm.
In KCI builds, I've been toying around with 2x Myr Retriever. These guys + Disciple of the vault make for an infinite combo with Krark-Clan Ironworks in play. Just wondering how viable you all think this would be as yet another Win Con for the deck.
like stated before, it seems cumbersome and eats up slots that are used for consistency's sake. 1 backup wincon + 1 uncounterable wincon + 1 alt wincon in the board that auto-dodges popular hate seems to do just fine in a deck that can just go infinite anyway. This deck doesn't need any more "oops, i win" cards, banefire is perfectly suited.
I'm really thinking of putting the KCI build at the TOP of the examples section. It seems like a lot of people are getting the wrong impression about it: it IS the most consistent build, and by a long shot. Gargadon was fun as a sort of cheap-rampless kci, but it doesn't necessarily push the mana far enough to keep up with the draw, which kci does all by itself.
...So back in goes the other 2 revivals to cushion the gaps between sunrises (you won't be able to keep affording the kind egg-trains kci can), and now your slots can get dicey pre-sunrise the same way the vanilla builds does, only you don't run any "smart" cantrips, just more eggs that rely on it being around. Mana being a premium until you get enough GQ activations and reshapes going so you can afford the extra eggs to get you past dead cards and into sunrises... you will need to run the 4th bloom to get that level of mana early on enough, and possibly a 1x wargate or black suicide tutor. If you run the 4th bloom, you have to be ok with going off turn 4 or 5, and not just because of mana, but also because the threshold is raised due to all these extra dead cards pre and post sunrise, and because you'll be cursed with it in your opening hand far more often and be forced to utilize it unless you want to take a hit and blank that slot. And If you've already gone that far, you might as well play KCI and do it more consistently with the added benefit of doing it within time constraints thanks to banefire.
It does have its advantages though. I didn't exactly suggest it for no reason... it's a powerful, unstoppable sac outlet on the cheap. And it's not a "new" card to eggs, since there were versions of extended eggs during timespiral where we played around with it.
Decklist to come tomorrow some time, right now I just want to put the match results down before I forget too much
Match 1 vs Gifts ungiven/into the breach combo
Game 1: Luck doesn't start well and I mull down to 4 cards. However my draws turn out pretty good and I manage to establish an OK pre-combo setup. However the turn before my Lotus comes out of suspend (5 or 6, it wasnt in my oppening hand) he Into the Breach's Emrakul and I concede to the annihilator 6. Mistake on my part from being despaired by the mull, as I had sunrise and the mana fixing to play it, and noxious would have given me a chance to at least attempt the combo next turn. Lost.
Game 2: He gets only 4 mana, and with 3 copies of gifts in his hand, as well as the breach + Emrakul combo(I had probed him earlier), he Gifts main phase for a land. Since he's tapped out, I use the opportunity and combo. Win.
Game 3: I don't recall how I lost this one but I did. Lost.
Match 2: Vs RUB Living End
Game 1: I don't get his deck at first (for some reason I had missed it when reading up on the popular decks). he combos, putting 9 power of creatures into play. He swings, and I'm pretty sure I have one more turn so I pass, thinking I can afford to make my own combo a little more reliable. However he uses the cascade spell (can't remember the name) that gives +1/+0 to attackers and kills me. Lost.
Game 2: This one I won because of a mistake on his part. I keep a shaky hand with only 1 egg, and only draw into one, however when I combo (he had lethal on board) he uses the fairy that exiles from grave on my bloom and an egg instead of the two eggs, and my reshape then gets me a second bloom, and the one egg multiplies and lets me combo.
Game 3: He gets no cascade spells in forever, so much that he resolves to hardcast some of his creatures. I take my time and combo off easily. Win.
Match 3: Vs Blue-black control
Game 1: I get a crazy hand. He Inquisitions turn one, taking my noxious away (still had a sunrise, not sure why he didn't take that). I draw a reshape and consider attempting to combo off turn two (I probably had a 50% chance of succeeding. Really crazy hand) but I chicken out. Bad move, he then snapcasters back the Inquisition, taking my reshape and only chance to get the bloom I needed for the combo. Lost.
Game 2: I had a good hand, but after inquisition, thoughsieze, thoughsize, inquisition it isnt so good anymore. However I failed to realize an option had early enough to exploit it. If I had suspended my Gargadon early (say, turn 3 after he had made me discard 3 cards already) I could have fed everything I had into him to get him into play. He had sufficiently weak creatures that I could have rushed him into play and beat his face in with a huge fatty. Lost.
Match 4: Vs errr... some other control deck. Can't remember all I know is I lost game 1, then game 2 to Crypt. Lost.
Match 5: Vs: RWB Aggro-control/Isocrone scepter-thingy. Rogue deck.
Game 1: I get an alright hand, but he Remands my bloom when it would go Online. Then he Remands it AGAIN 3 turns latter. he didn't get many beaters and I make it all the way to turn 8 until I need to combo. He Remands my Sunrise. Lost to Remand.
Game 2: He get a scepter with Remand online turn 2, so the next turn I reshape for a Bloom even if I can't combo (so he can't counter it). I proceed to play an egg per turn which he cant counter since he know's I'll combo as soon as his Scepter gets taped. He also needs to keep his mana open for the counter, meaning he can't play creatures. I suspend another bloom, he puts a Surgical extraction on another scepter, and when the second bloom comes off suspend he Remands it, giving me the opportunity I need to combo. I use Noxious to make his surgical fizzle.
Game 3: He gets both a Relic of Progenitus and a Geist of saint Traft very early, putting me in a bad spot. However, as I'm forced to to combo (on 8 lives, and he had shown that he and Lighning Helixes and Bolts), I draw into Echoing truth (I needed either that or Balefire) and use it on his Relic, responding to the sac of it with sunrise. Win.
Match 6: Vs RGB Living end
Game 1: He gets 4 copperline gorges and only one source of black mana (and no cascade). He tries to LD me with Beast withins (2 of them), but I drew a lot of lands so it didn't affect me much. I get a loooot of turns to get my combo ready, and when he finally gets his End off I combo on my turn sucessfully. Fun fact, I almost killed him with beast tokens. Win.
Game 2: I start with 2 Blooms in hand, and draw my 3rd one on turn 1. When they come online I sac one to play ironworks. The next turn he cascades, and puts 20 power on board, and one of his creatures triggers to destroy my KCI. I Sunrise to save it and Balefire for 18 damage the next turn, killing him (2 blooms + 2 citadels + eggs = lots of mana). Win.
Match 7: Vs ... some kind of UX control. Too much writing made me forget this one. All I remember is this is the only match I got my Defense Grids (even though I sided them in against every non Living End match if I recall). They worked great, letting me combo off safely game 2 and 3.
Hi all. I am currently in a Design of Experiments course for my Quality Assurance degree. I have been playing this deck for years, in the various formats. In order to help the community, and fulfill a course project, I was hoping for some help. I need to design an experiment, and here is what I am looking to do.
It must contain at least 3 factors, and at least 2 levels. Here are my ideas, but hopefully you can help. The three factors are Search, Recursion, and Lands. The two levels are 4 of card A and the second level is 4 of card B. For example, for the Search factor, the factors are 4 Reshape for the first level, and 4 Trash for Treasure for the second level.
I would like information on three things. The first is pairs of cards that serve the same purpose. The second is a base deck that I will change 3 pairs of cards in. The third is a win condition that is easy to keep track of, like copies of Bitter Ordeal or Banefire. I intend to try to go off turn 4, goldfishing. If you could help me with this, I will provide a full analysis of the full factorial, and recommendations based upon this research. Thank you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If I accept you for who you are, I am your enemy. Friendship comes when one crosses the line of acceptance and into the life of that person and aides them in ways both known and unknown. Growth of an individual is a sign of a good friendship."
Hi um ive been swaping playing modern decks heaps over the past month and ive finally settled down in eggs my builds pretty dodgey and i cant get elsewhere flask or pyrite spellbomb so my list isn't great here it is
I've been fiddling in solitaire mode with the KCI build for a while now, and I was wondering why people haven't opted to cut the pyrite kill and just add in a second banefire, wouldn't it be faster and cleaner? Or am I missing something.
Otherwise, I'm loving the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
They call me Hank Hill because I bring the pro-pain.
4 chromatic star
4 chromatic sphere
4 conjurers bauble
3 terrarion
1 pyrite spellbomb
3 lotus bloom
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
2 ichor wellspring
1 mox opal
4 greater gargadon
spells: 17
4 reshape
4 second sunrise
3 noxious revival
4 gitaxian probe
1 spoils of the vault
1 bitter ordeal
1 mountain
4 ghost quarter
3 scalding tarn
8 island
haha, look who came over to the gargle side. And you were all skeptical a few pages ago.
I'm working on an instant-speed version with scout's warning, which works awesomely with gargle (see the rulings on quicken). Perhaps a lotus cobra build, since it would help with generating the mana needed to power out a shimmer myr so you can keep ramping up CA. a KCI build might work too (obviously it's a bit simpler since shimmer myr flashes KCI, and provides a sac target) but the initial 7 mana seems like a bit of a bear. Anyway I'll post a list when (if) I get it working.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
1) You can sac multiple lands, unlike Edge of Autumn. This makes Drift of Phantasms stronger, as you can grind out advantage by making mana then tutoring for a Sunrise, instead of trying to draw and make mana at the same time (which is what Edge does).
2) It makes colored mana, which is perfect for Drift of Phantasms. While KCI has Open the Vaults as its redundancy, we have Drift. Drift's advantage is that you can split the cost 3-3 instead of paying 6 at one go.
Having 2 Lotuses and some Drift of Phantasms is practically an insta-win. Having 3 Islands and a Gargadon is pretty much the same.
And one more trick: If you have a suspended Gargadon, a Mox and Bauble on the field and a Mox in hand, you can eat the Mox, Bauble it in, then play the Mox in your hand for 1 extra mana.
I've been testing with Ichor Wellspring as the 2 extra eggs and it's peachy. It draws when it ETB so it can get you a land if you're mana screwed. However, Terrarion might be better as it can fix mana (in case you're forced to go off on lands alone) and can sac itself if you play it early.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Lots of decks play them and it kinda sucks when they remove an important card for the combo :/
RIP Eggs
My Trade Thread
Second Sunrise won't return cards put into graveyard with mirror-mad phantasm, so why would you want that card?
Open the Vaults
RIP Eggs
My Trade Thread
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
RIP Eggs
My Trade Thread
I'm really thinking of putting the KCI build at the TOP of the examples section. It seems like a lot of people are getting the wrong impression about it: it IS the most consistent build, and by a long shot. Gargadon was fun as a sort of cheap-rampless kci, but it doesn't necessarily push the mana far enough to keep up with the draw, which kci does all by itself.
...So back in goes the other 2 revivals to cushion the gaps between sunrises (you won't be able to keep affording the kind egg-trains kci can), and now your slots can get dicey pre-sunrise the same way the vanilla builds does, only you don't run any "smart" cantrips, just more eggs that rely on it being around. Mana being a premium until you get enough GQ activations and reshapes going so you can afford the extra eggs to get you past dead cards and into sunrises... you will need to run the 4th bloom to get that level of mana early on enough, and possibly a 1x wargate or black suicide tutor. If you run the 4th bloom, you have to be ok with going off turn 4 or 5, and not just because of mana, but also because the threshold is raised due to all these extra dead cards pre and post sunrise, and because you'll be cursed with it in your opening hand far more often and be forced to utilize it unless you want to take a hit and blank that slot. And If you've already gone that far, you might as well play KCI and do it more consistently with the added benefit of doing it within time constraints thanks to banefire.
It does have its advantages though. I didn't exactly suggest it for no reason... it's a powerful, unstoppable sac outlet on the cheap. And it's not a "new" card to eggs, since there were versions of extended eggs during timespiral where we played around with it.
http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/ <---- kills spam, fyi.
http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/ <---- kills spam, fyi.
Match 1 vs Gifts ungiven/into the breach combo
Game 1: Luck doesn't start well and I mull down to 4 cards. However my draws turn out pretty good and I manage to establish an OK pre-combo setup. However the turn before my Lotus comes out of suspend (5 or 6, it wasnt in my oppening hand) he Into the Breach's Emrakul and I concede to the annihilator 6. Mistake on my part from being despaired by the mull, as I had sunrise and the mana fixing to play it, and noxious would have given me a chance to at least attempt the combo next turn. Lost.
Game 2: He gets only 4 mana, and with 3 copies of gifts in his hand, as well as the breach + Emrakul combo(I had probed him earlier), he Gifts main phase for a land. Since he's tapped out, I use the opportunity and combo. Win.
Game 3: I don't recall how I lost this one but I did. Lost.
Match 2: Vs RUB Living End
Game 1: I don't get his deck at first (for some reason I had missed it when reading up on the popular decks). he combos, putting 9 power of creatures into play. He swings, and I'm pretty sure I have one more turn so I pass, thinking I can afford to make my own combo a little more reliable. However he uses the cascade spell (can't remember the name) that gives +1/+0 to attackers and kills me. Lost.
Game 2: This one I won because of a mistake on his part. I keep a shaky hand with only 1 egg, and only draw into one, however when I combo (he had lethal on board) he uses the fairy that exiles from grave on my bloom and an egg instead of the two eggs, and my reshape then gets me a second bloom, and the one egg multiplies and lets me combo.
Game 3: He gets no cascade spells in forever, so much that he resolves to hardcast some of his creatures. I take my time and combo off easily. Win.
Match 3: Vs Blue-black control
Game 1: I get a crazy hand. He Inquisitions turn one, taking my noxious away (still had a sunrise, not sure why he didn't take that). I draw a reshape and consider attempting to combo off turn two (I probably had a 50% chance of succeeding. Really crazy hand) but I chicken out. Bad move, he then snapcasters back the Inquisition, taking my reshape and only chance to get the bloom I needed for the combo. Lost.
Game 2: I had a good hand, but after inquisition, thoughsieze, thoughsize, inquisition it isnt so good anymore. However I failed to realize an option had early enough to exploit it. If I had suspended my Gargadon early (say, turn 3 after he had made me discard 3 cards already) I could have fed everything I had into him to get him into play. He had sufficiently weak creatures that I could have rushed him into play and beat his face in with a huge fatty. Lost.
Match 4: Vs errr... some other control deck. Can't remember all I know is I lost game 1, then game 2 to Crypt. Lost.
Match 5: Vs: RWB Aggro-control/Isocrone scepter-thingy. Rogue deck.
Game 1: I get an alright hand, but he Remands my bloom when it would go Online. Then he Remands it AGAIN 3 turns latter. he didn't get many beaters and I make it all the way to turn 8 until I need to combo. He Remands my Sunrise. Lost to Remand.
Game 2: He get a scepter with Remand online turn 2, so the next turn I reshape for a Bloom even if I can't combo (so he can't counter it). I proceed to play an egg per turn which he cant counter since he know's I'll combo as soon as his Scepter gets taped. He also needs to keep his mana open for the counter, meaning he can't play creatures. I suspend another bloom, he puts a Surgical extraction on another scepter, and when the second bloom comes off suspend he Remands it, giving me the opportunity I need to combo. I use Noxious to make his surgical fizzle.
Game 3: He gets both a Relic of Progenitus and a Geist of saint Traft very early, putting me in a bad spot. However, as I'm forced to to combo (on 8 lives, and he had shown that he and Lighning Helixes and Bolts), I draw into Echoing truth (I needed either that or Balefire) and use it on his Relic, responding to the sac of it with sunrise. Win.
Match 6: Vs RGB Living end
Game 1: He gets 4 copperline gorges and only one source of black mana (and no cascade). He tries to LD me with Beast withins (2 of them), but I drew a lot of lands so it didn't affect me much. I get a loooot of turns to get my combo ready, and when he finally gets his End off I combo on my turn sucessfully. Fun fact, I almost killed him with beast tokens. Win.
Game 2: I start with 2 Blooms in hand, and draw my 3rd one on turn 1. When they come online I sac one to play ironworks. The next turn he cascades, and puts 20 power on board, and one of his creatures triggers to destroy my KCI. I Sunrise to save it and Balefire for 18 damage the next turn, killing him (2 blooms + 2 citadels + eggs = lots of mana). Win.
Match 7: Vs ... some kind of UX control. Too much writing made me forget this one. All I remember is this is the only match I got my Defense Grids (even though I sided them in against every non Living End match if I recall). They worked great, letting me combo off safely game 2 and 3.
It must contain at least 3 factors, and at least 2 levels. Here are my ideas, but hopefully you can help. The three factors are Search, Recursion, and Lands. The two levels are 4 of card A and the second level is 4 of card B. For example, for the Search factor, the factors are 4 Reshape for the first level, and 4 Trash for Treasure for the second level.
I would like information on three things. The first is pairs of cards that serve the same purpose. The second is a base deck that I will change 3 pairs of cards in. The third is a win condition that is easy to keep track of, like copies of Bitter Ordeal or Banefire. I intend to try to go off turn 4, goldfishing. If you could help me with this, I will provide a full analysis of the full factorial, and recommendations based upon this research. Thank you.
Lands : 14
4 Ghost quarter
10 islands
Creatures: 2
2 Disiple of the Vault
Artifacts : 18
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Conqueror's Bauble
4 Lotus Bloom
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
1 Aether Spellbomb
Socery : 16
4 Gitiaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Reshape
4 Edge of Autumn
Instant : 10
4 Second Sunrise
4 Noxious Revivial
2 Dispel
Sorry about the horrible spelling
Otherwise, I'm loving the deck.