Modern Sunrise Combo (Old Primer)

  • #1
    0))Modern Sunrise Combo((0
    ...or "eggs" Cool


    q----o---o--o-oo00)) = ((00oo-o--o---o----p


    q----o---o--o-oo00)) = ((00oo-o--o---o----p



    No longer being updated, check new Primer for current Eggs discussion :

    Introduction :
    So, what is this "eggs"? The eggs moniker for this deck came from it's origins in the use of the Odyssey "eggs" like Sungrass Egg, Skyshroud Egg, and Darkwater Egg. The deck has since lost these invaluable staples as they are a couple blocks too early for Modern. In their place, new cards have carved out a new face for the deck.

    How the Deck Plays :

    Setup
    Hardcast "eggs" aka: chromatic stars, chromatic spheres, conjurer's bauble, and elsewhere flask during the first few turns to get an amount of "draw" on the board, as well as any cantrips to help dig for necessary pieces. If you have any lotus blooms in your opening seven, suspend them. Then on the turn you go off or the turn before you go off, reshape one of the artifacts into a lotus bloom if you can.

    Combo
    crack your ghost quarters, lotus blooms, and any fetchlands you have (like misty rainforests) and then strain the mana through your eggs. Those eggs are used to fix your mana and dig deeper into the deck to find more pieces. Then fire off Second Sunrise or Faith's Reward to return them all to the battlefield. You then use the draw from your eggs to dig for another sunrise effect, while adding any other eggs you find along the way to the board. Eventually, you'll be able to get down to the last few cards of the deck.

    Kill
    Conjurer's bauble takes a card from your graveyard and puts it on the bottom of your library, and afterwards it draws a card from the top of your library. With zero cards in your library, you can sac it to put any card in your graveyard into your hand. You target a used second sunrise which goes to your hand, while the bauble goes to your graveyard. After this, you crack a lotus bloom or 2 and/or ghost quarter a few lands that were tapped for mana, sac a pyrite spellbomb with R to do 2 damage to target opponent, and then cast second sunrise. All the sacrificed permanents come back to the battlefield, and the second sunrise goes to the graveyard. Repeat 8 or 9 more times, win.

    Card Choices (By Izzetmage) :

    Core Combo Pieces
    These cards should always be included. They form the backbone of the deck.

    Mana Generation Engine
    Lotus Bloom
    +Generates colored mana
    -Cannot be cast normally
    Lotus Bloom is the easiest way to cast Second Sunrise. Sacrificing it generates WWW, which can then be used to pay for Second Sunrise. Second Sunrise will return Lotus Bloom to the battlefield.
    Mid-combo, Lotus Bloom can be cracked for UUU to cast Reshape.
    Lotus Bloom cannot be cast normally. It is often cheated out onto the battlefield via Reshape.
    Krark-Clan Ironworks
    +Sacrifice outlet
    -Does not generate colored mana
    Krark-Clan Ironworks generates mana like Lotus Bloom, albeit colorless. It acts as a sacrifice outlet for eggs that cannot sacrifice themselves, such as Terrarion and Ichor Wellspring.
    It is also good for untapping mana-producing artifacts. If Darksteel Citadel or Mox Opal is sacrificed to it and returned to the battlefield via Second Sunrise, they enter the battlefield untapped.
    Ghost Quarter
    +Sacrifice outlet
    +Generates mana
    +Tutors any basic land
    +Alternative wincon
    Ghost Quarter is a sacrifice outlet for your lands. Target them in order to search your library for basic lands, generating mana for you. When you cast Sunrise, the destroyed lands and Ghost Quarter return untapped.
    It also acts as an alternative wincon. You can destroy all your opponent's lands with it, recurring it with Faith's Reward.

    Theoretical Options
    Greater Gargadon
    +Sacrifice outlet
    -Limited usage
    -Off-color
    -Does not generate any advantage
    Scalding Tarn, Misty Rainforest
    +Tutors Island
    -Costs life
    Sunrise Effects
    Second Sunrise
    +Deck centrepiece
    This deck is meant to abuse this card. You will find yourself sacrificing eggs and having nothing on the battlefield, only to cast this card and bring everything back.
    Faith’s Reward
    +Deck centrepiece
    +Less restrictive mana cost
    +Does not return opponent’s permanents
    -Higher CMC than Sunrise
    The fifth to eighth copy of Second Sunrise. It costs one more mana than Sunrise, but only requires one colored mana compared to Sunrise’s two. Additionally, it does not return your opponents’ permanents, making a lock with Ghost Quarter possible.
    Open the Vaults
    +Returns permanents regardless of how or which turn they were put into the graveyard
    -High mana cost
    -Does not return lands
    -Sorcery speed
    An alternative to Second Sunrise or Faith’s Reward. Advantages it has over them include:
    a) Ability to return eggs cracked turns before casting of this spell
    b) Ability to return eggs discarded from hand or milled
    Its downsides are that it cost 6 mana compared to Sunrise’s/Faith’s 3/4, and that it does not return lands (i.e. Ghost Quarter).
    Tutors and Recursion
    Reshape
    +Puts Lotus Bloom onto the battlefield
    +Sacrifice outlet
    +Tutors for any artifact
    The main purpose of this card is to put Lotus Bloom onto the battlefield, working around its unpayable casting cost.
    Given an overload of mana and not enough card-drawing effects, this card can shift your game back into balance by tutoring for an egg.
    Postboard, it tutors for hate rocks like Pithing Needle.
    Noxious Revival
    +Returns Sunrise
    +Can be cast with life
    This card returns Second Sunrise to the top of your library, which you can then draw by cracking an egg. This lets you continue the combo.
    It is a good way to recover Sunrises lost through discard, or to make Surgical Extraction fizzle.
    Along with Conjurer’s Bauble, this ensures that you will not deck out, if you are forced to win by Ghost Quarter lock.

    Theoretical Options
    Spoils of the Vault
    +Tutors for any card
    +Low mana cost
    -High life cost
    -Off-color
    -Possibility of exiling wincon
    Wargate
    +Tutors for any permanent
    -Off-color
    ?Does not require sacrifice
    Drift of Phantasms
    +Tutors for Second Sunrise
    Some other 3 mana cards it gets: Wipe Away, Blood Moon, Vendilion Clique
    Clutch of the Undercity
    +Tutors for Faith’s Reward
    +Alternative wincon
    -Off-color
    Reclaim
    +Returns Sunrise
    -Off-color
    ?Unable to target opponents
    Eggs and Cantrips
    These are the permanents and spells that draw you cards. Most of them are artifacts, since they synergize well with Reshape and Krark-Clan Ironworks.

    Cost 1 Cards
    Conjurer’s Bauble
    +Returns cards to library
    Conjurer’s Bauble is vital to the deck as it puts Sunrises back into your library, increasing your probability of drawing a Sunrise (provided you have a way to shuffle your library, like Ghost Quarter) to continue the combo, as well as making the infinite mana loop possible.
    Chromatic Star
    +Sacrifice fodder
    +Fixes mana
    The second most useful egg, Chromatic Star can be sacrificed to KCI or Reshape and still draw a card. It also fixes mana, turning colorless mana from KCI into blue/white, or blue/white into the other.
    Chromatic Sphere
    +Fixes mana
    Identical to Chromatic Star, except that it doesn’t draw if sacrificed. Redundancy is needed, so it still makes the cut.
    Terrarion
    +Sacrifice fodder
    +Fixes mana
    -Cannot sacrifice itself the turn it enters the battlefield
    Terrarion enters the battlefield tapped, so it’s a bit unreliable. It is only good for one self-sacrifice; on subsequent Sunrises, you need KCI or Reshape to gain advantage from it.
    Sleight of Hand
    Serum Visions

    Theoretical Options
    Abundant Growth
    +Draws a card upon ETB
    -Off-color
    -Not an artifact
    -Requires sacrifice outlet
    Gitaxian Probe
    Cost 2 Cards
    Elsewhere Flask
    +Sacrifice fodder
    Elsewhere Flask is the staple 2-mana egg. It draws a card when it enters the battlefield, and sacrifices itself. Sacrifice Ghost Quarter before sacrificing Elsewhere Flask to prevent conflicts.
    Ichor Wellspring
    +Sacrifice fodder
    +Draws a card when put into graveyard
    -Requires sacrifice outlet
    Ichor Wellspring is a secondary 2-mana egg. It’s very powerful when you have a way to sacrifice it, but weak otherwise.

    Theoretical Options
    Kaleidostone
    +Sacrifice fodder
    -High sacrifice cost
    Prophetic Prism
    +Sacrifice fodder
    +Fixes mana
    -Requires sacrifice outlet
    Mind Stone
    +Generates mana
    -Requires net input of mana to draw
    Spreading Seas
    +Good vs nonblue/multicolored decks, Tron
    -Requires sacrifice outlet
    -Not an artifact
    Ior Ruin Expedition
    +Draws 2 cards
    -Does not draw when ETB
    -Requires sacrifice outlet
    -Not an artifact
    Hatching Plans
    +Draws 3 cards
    -Does not draw when ETB
    -Requires (enchantment) sacrifice outlet
    -Not an artifact
    Lands
    These are your main sources of mana.


    Basic Lands
    Island, Plains
    Not much needs to be explained. This deck focuses more on blue for Reshape and white is only splashed for sideboard cards and in case you have to combo off without Lotus Bloom. Most of your lands should be basic so that Ghost Quarter can fetch them.
    Non-Basic Lands
    Darksteel Citadel
    +Is an artifact
    +Indestructible
    +Sacrifice fodder
    -Only produces colorless mana
    A no-frills artifact land. Sacrificing it to KCI or Reshape lets it return untapped.
    Mox Opal
    +Ramps any color for free
    +Sacrifice fodder
    -Legendary
    -Requires 2 other artifacts
    Not really a land, but given the large number of artifacts present in this deck, Mox Opal is worth using in small quantities to speed it up.
    Excess Moxen can be shuffled back into the library with Conjurer’s Bauble so that only 1 returns to the battlefield post-Sunrise.

    Theoretical Options
    Horizon Canopy
    +Draws a card
    -Requires life payment to generate mana
    -Requires net input of mana to draw
    Win Conditions
    These are what you use to actually win the game.


    Reduce Opponent to Zero Life
    Pyrite Spellbomb
    +Draws a card
    +Is an artifact
    +Kills hatebears
    The staple wincon in this deck. It is an artifact that has a secondary function of drawing a card, so it can contribute mid-combo.
    Banefire
    +Uncounterable, damage cannot be prevented
    +Castable mid-combo
    The wincon of choice for MTGO players, due to time limits. Sacrificing all your artifacts to KCI makes enough mana to kill your opponent even if you haven’t drawn through your entire library.
    Disciple of the Vault
    +Life loss
    +Good vs Affinity, mirror
    Disciple of the Vault causes life loss, so it gets past things like Worship.

    Theoretical Options
    Pillar of Flame
    +Kills hatebears
    Seal of Fire
    +Kills hatebears
    This card is interesting because it can be used to kill the same hate bear over and over again. Even if they get returned with Sunrise, they hit the bin again.
    Invoke the Firemind
    +Draws cards
    +Castable mid-combo
    Grapeshot
    +Uncounterable
    Exsanguinate
    +Life loss
    +Does not target
    +Castable mid-combo
    Deck Your Opponent
    Blue Sun’s Zenith
    +Can be casted on yourself
    Mid-combo, Blue Sun’s Zenith is an expensive mana sink.
    As a kill condition, it forces your opponent to draw all at once, so they have no time to cast answers.
    Temple Bell
    +Is an artifact
    +Draws a card
    +Does not target
    -Opponent draws cards
    Mid-combo, Temple Bell draws you cards, although it also draws your opponent cards.
    When you’re using it to deck your opponent, remember that your opponent draws cards one by one, so they have a chance to cast answers. You can get around this by cracking Bauble and casting Sunrise in response, but note that split second cards (e.g. Extirpate) can interrupt your kill.
    Bitter Ordeal
    +Uncounterable
    Unlike the previous two cards, Bitter Ordeal exiles cards straight from your opponent’s library, so your opponent has to work with what’s in his hand. You still have to wait for your opponent’s draw step to win.
    Soft Locks
    Sunbeam Spellbomb
    +Draws a card
    +Is an artifact
    +Good vs aggro
    -Opponent draws cards
    The reverse of Pyrite Spellbomb, Sunbeam Spellbomb will gain you infinite life instead of dealing infinite damage. You will still lose to poison, and your opponent still can assemble a game-winning position.
    Bounce Spells
    Bounce spells can be used to soft-lock your opponent. After destroying all their lands with Ghost Quarter, bouncing all their permanents leaves them with no counterplay. Refer to the Bounce section under Outs for choices.
    Other Win Conditions
    Laboratory Maniac
    +Does not target
    +Dodges all hate
    A very special wincon, Laboratory Maniac makes you win the game, no questions asked. Chromatic Sphere’s ability is a mana ability, so it cannot be responded to and will let Maniac win immediately. Short of Platinum Angel, nothing can stop the Lab Man once it hits the field.
    Wishboard (Glittering Wish, Research (Research/Development))
    Another special wincon. These two cards allow you to search your sideboard for the perfect answer, freeing up maindeck space. You can chain Glittering Wish into Research, or just play each card independently of each other.
    Outs
    These are ways to avoid losing to problematic cards from opponents. Most of these will be in your sideboard.
    Bounce
    AEther Spellbomb
    +Is an artifact
    +Draws a card
    Like the other two spellbombs, this is maindeck material. It is only able to target creatures, so you can still lose to Rule of Law and grave hate rocks.
    Boomerang
    +Can target lands
    The quintessential bounce spell in a blue-heavy deck. The ability to hit lands allows you to slow down your opponent’s tempo and surprise opponents who think they have enough mana to counter you spells.
    Echoing Truth
    +Good vs tokens, aggro
    This card has a slight edge if your opponent is lucky enough to have two permanents with the same name in play. Aggro decks that jam 4x multiple cards can have their development severely undone by one Truth.
    Hurkyl’s Recall
    +Good vs Affinity, grave hate rocks, Ethersworn Canonist
    Hurkyl’s Recall clears out Tormod’s Crypt and Relic of Progenitus simultaneously, two cards that can fit into any sideboard. It’s a house against Affinity as well.
    Wipe Away
    +Good vs grave hate rocks
    +Can target lands
    One of the best answers to Tormod’s Crypt. Normally, if you try to bounce (or even just target) Crypt, your opponent will sacrifice it in response and let it return when you Sunrise. Split Second prevents him from doing so.
    Repeal
    +Draws a card
    This card’s mana cost scales with what you’re trying to get rid of, but it replaces itself.
    It’s worth noting that this is a free cantrip when you target your own Mox Opal with it.
    Cryptic Command
    +Versatile
    -High casting cost
    Cryptic Command does anything for you as long as you can cough up 1UUU. Pre-combo, you might need something cheaper than that to clear out hatebears and such.
    Fighting Counterspells
    Defense Grid
    +Is an artifact
    The best anti-counter tool available. Being an artifact, it is tutorable with Reshape, and extras are sacrifice fodder for KCI. Note that your opponent can still realistically cast Mindbreak Trap.
    Silence
    +Slows opponent’s tempo
    +Good vs Storm
    Unlike Defense Grid, Silence requires colored mana. It’s fortunate, then, that this deck splashes white. Your opponent needs at least two counterspells to get past one Silence.
    Early Frost
    +Slows opponent’s tempo
    Early Frost attacks your opponent’s counterspells at their root: mana. Since mana cannot be floated between phases or turns, you can cast Early Frost to force your opponent to deal with it now, or have no mana later. As always, Mindbreak Trap gets past it.
    Gigadrowse
    +Uncounterable
    +Slows opponent’s tempo
    +Good vs grave hate rocks, aggro
    A more versatile land-tapper, Gigadrowse has a few unique advantages. You opponent has to counter all copies of Gigadrowse to fully stop it. It can tap enemy creatures to stop their attacks, or tap Tormod’s Crypt, forcing your opponent to either exile an empty graveyard or be unable to use it until his untap (before which you’ll have killed him).
    Pact of Negation
    +Zero mana cost
    An all-or-nothing counterspell, Pact of Negation puts no stress on your mana but will make you pay dearly if you fail to win now. If you fizzle you’ve probably already lost, so the only downside to Pact is that it doesn’t do anything pre-combo.
    Determined (Bound/Determined)
    +Draws a card
    Who would’ve thought that one answer to counterspells was to make your spells uncounterable? Mindbreak Trap (again) doesn’t counter, so it sneaks past this.
    Counterspells
    If you can’t beat them, join them. Spell Pierce and Dispel are the cheapest options, and have applications outside of protecting the combo.

    Theoretical Options
    Twincast
    +Recurs Sunrise, good vs grave hate rocks
    Use this to copy Sunrise. Even in the original Sunrise is countered, the copy will resolve, unless your opponent has 2 counters.
    Against grave hate rocks, when you cast Sunrise and they try to exile your graveyard in response, cast Twincast copying Sunrise so the copy resolves first and your eggs are saved.
    The same trick can also be used to double Sunrise’s effect. Let the copy resolve. Return your eggs to the battlefield. With Sunrise on the stack, before it resolves, crack all your eggs again, then let Sunrise resolve.
    Twincast can turn lethal Banefires and the like back at your opponent. Your copy goes on the stack and resolves before theirs.
    Redirect
    +Good vs Surgical Extraction
    This spell causes any counterspell to fizzle. Change the target of the counterspell to Redirect. Redirect will resolve first, causing the counterspell to lose its target and fizzle.
    Additionally, Redirect is just good at turning game-ending spells back at your opponent, or gaining value by redirecting burn at your opponent's creatures.

    History :
    The history of "eggs" is amusing, as it actually started out before the mirrodin rare Second Sunrise, which was added later to the egg shell (hah!) to make the sunrise combo. Many have already explained the history of this deck better than I ever could, so here are a bunch of articles that reference past lists and origins:

    2004 "bad eggs" - no sunrise

    2006 "Worlds (extended)"

    2008 "EDNAE"

    2009 "New additions to EDNAE"


    Game Tips :

    Optimizing Recursion
    There are a monumental number of little zone/stack manipulation and order of operation tricks for a pilot to learn and internalize in order to play the deck at the level of consistency the deck is designed to work at. When working with limited information, decisions are based on achieving the widest margin of possible future plays...

    -Leave your options for mana open as long as possible (meaning don't crack the bloom the second you get it back from sunrise unless its mana is immediately required). Mana from basic lands are always the first to be used.

    -Watch your life total when you use fetchlands, recurring sunrise with mana from fetchlands has a shelf life of exactly how many basics you run, minus whatever you draw into.

    -Getting reshape for blooms is a priority when you have to use fetchlands instead of ghost quarter to recur sunrise.

    -Eggs that have more interactions with other cards in your deck are the last to be cracked, so that your draw from other eggs might reveal those plays. Particularily, chromatic star is always your last egg on the board unless...

    -When you find an interaction that thins and shuffles and has a target inside your library, like drawing a reshape to get bloom or a ghost quarter to get an island, use it at the next most appropriate opportunity. Do this because every time you draw, you risk stranding the intended target in your hand. In some cases, it is warranted to reshape something that won't draw a card before you can fetch a target from the library. For instance, if you have a lotus bloom out, and two more stranded in your hand, it'd be unlucky if you reshaped a chromatic star to get a lotus bloom, only to draw the lotus bloom off of chromatic stars graveyard trigger. This is unavoidable since the graveyard trigger goes on top of the stack after you cast reshape, but before reshape resolves, since the sacrifice of chromatic star is an additional cost.

    Recursion Priority Lists
    This section is a quick reference guide for what to sac, fetch, etc. and in what order. This is only a general guideline, and not necessarily always the right line of play...

    1) cast reshape targeting... (in order of preference)
    ___1) Mox Opal (after tapping it for mana)
    ___2) Elsewhere Flask
    ___3) Chromatic Star
    ___4) Any other artifact
    ___and fetching, in order of preference
    ___1) Lotus bloom (if you have 1 or 0 currently)
    ___2) Chromatic Star or Elsewhere flask (if you have lots of extra mana)
    ___3) Conjurer's Bauble
    ___4) Chromatic Sphere
    ___5) Mox Opal (if you have another reshape in hand)
    ___6) Spellbomb or Elsewhere Flask
    2) Crack ghost quarters and fetchlands
    3) Crack eggs in the following order
    ___1) Chromatic Sphere
    ___2) Conjurer's Bauble, targeting Reshape
    ___3) Chromatic Star
    ___4) Aether/Pyrite Spellbomb
    ___5) Elsewhere Flask (only once you have the second sunrise in hand)

    If at any point you draw another reshape, use it on the artifacts you have remaining in the above order.

    4) Play second sunrise
    5) Put elsewhere flask triggers on the stack
    ___2) respond by cracking conjurer's baubles and putting stuff on the bottom in the above order
    ___3) respond by cracking ghost quarters and fetchlands
    6) repeat from the top, if possible.

    Match Ups :
    There is no excuse, why hasn't any come foward here with this material? Madness.

    Decklists:

    Last edited by Blitz Reloaded: 3/29/2013 3:52:08 AM
    "It's like Time Walk and Stone Rain had sex (and Lava Dart watched)" - Pinder, on stifled fetchlands.
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  • #2
    This already exists.
    I fly like Faeries, get high like Jace
    If you catch me with a Verdict I got Celestial Colonnade
    If you try to cast a spell I'll counter all day
    I'll beat you in a second if you wait
  • #3
    Yes yes, we know. We had a talk with the mods because we wanted the first post to be more updatable and a better primer, and the OP of the other thread said he wasn't going to be active enough to keep it up to date. So thus the new thread. The old one may be merged in, but thats a mod action if it does occur.
    Modern
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  • #4
    Sweet.

    Good luck.
    I fly like Faeries, get high like Jace
    If you catch me with a Verdict I got Celestial Colonnade
    If you try to cast a spell I'll counter all day
    I'll beat you in a second if you wait
  • #5
    I can do card choices for Sunny Side Up. I'll have them done by the weekend.
  • #6
    Quote from Lectrys
    I can do card choices for Sunny Side Up. I'll have them done by the weekend.


    sounds good!
    "It's like Time Walk and Stone Rain had sex (and Lava Dart watched)" - Pinder, on stifled fetchlands.
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  • #7
    I would put the text in the spoilers in the default font because its pretty hard to read. The cool text is fine for the rest of the post. Also I don't know if its a different color, but it sort of blends in with the blue background of the spoiler background at least on my monitor.
    In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.


    Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
    Albert Einstein


    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

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  • #8
    I'm slowly working on Matchups, but as will all matchups sections, It'll take a while. Of course, more than one person can work on matchups, so anyone who has free time, feel free to help me.
    Modern
    UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
    EDH
    GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia

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  • #9
    Nice work guys, great to see this up and running. Now on to tweaking! I'm bringing my "basic" build to an event on the 19th. I'll post detailed experience!
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  • #10
    by the way guys, mod is telling me he can't merge the two threads, as the first post from the old thread would end of being still the first post of the thread.
    "It's like Time Walk and Stone Rain had sex (and Lava Dart watched)" - Pinder, on stifled fetchlands.
    http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/
  • #11
    is there now way he can make the first post of that thread the last post of this on? If not, that's really fine, we can just post a link to the other in each thread, and continue from here. Alternatively, we can go through and copy the whole thread (or at least the valuable, non-"i have no idea how this works") posts and paste them into the start of this thread in spoiler tags.
    Modern
    UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
    EDH
    GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia

    Play Magic online free with GCCG!

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  • #12
    He told me that's just how it works, which makes me sad. But yeah, if we could atleast get thought-about-writing to put a link in his post, or just have a link in the very page at the top or bottom before it's locked, that'd be another way to do it.
    "It's like Time Walk and Stone Rain had sex (and Lava Dart watched)" - Pinder, on stifled fetchlands.
    http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/
  • #13
    Hmmm... I guess it's okay since much of the most recent discussion is the most relevant. The early posts were pre-ban.
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  • #14
    I have been play testing this deck and I have a question. Say for instance I am playing a Reshape and I am sacrificing a Conjurer's Bauble to it, can I sacrifice the Bauble in response and draw a card off of it or would its just get sacrificed to the Reshape without the card draw?
  • #15
    Sacrificing is a cost, which is paid as you are casting spell, before any player gains priority, so no, you can't sac it in response.
  • #16
    So, with that being correct, it is preferable to sacrifice a chromatic star to reshape, as it will get you the card. That's why you (usually) save the stars till the end so if you need to sacrifice them you still get value.
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  • #17
    I usually save the Elsewhere Flasks for the end, as saccing them to their own abilities while you still have Ghost Quarters or fetchlands is awful and they make perfect Reshape targets. Chromatic Star is still one of the last guys to get sacced, though.
  • #18
    Just curious if this situation will work...

    Lets just say you have a Lotus Bloom suspended on the field, Reshape in hand, and a Conjurer's Bauble on the field. If you have no Blooms left in your deck can you sac the Bloom then while the Reshape trigger is on the stack Bauble the Bloom then use Reshape to find the Bloom?

    Since sacrificing an artifact is part of the cost to play Reshape I feel like this would work but not sure.

    EDIT: I'm also in the process of testing out cantrippy type cards such as Ponder/Preordain/Gitaxian Probe Ill let you know how I like them!
    Last edited by asheroth: 11/11/2011 8:03:31 PM
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  • #19
    Additional costs are not triggers. However, jamming discarded or dead Lotus Blooms into the deck in response to saccing, oh, Elsewhere Flask with Reshape should work.
  • #20
    Yeah that should work, as the you pay the cost to put the ability on the stack, by which point the bloom is in your graveyard. you can then respond to your reshape by sacing conjurer's bauble, and procede as you mentioned.

    Keep in mind that ponder/preordain are banned, so those two are out. Gitaxian probe really pales against permanent based card draw which benefits from second sunrise, but i guess test it if you want. would be nice to receive a definitive yes/no on that card choice.
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  • #21
    Quote from asheroth


    EDIT: I'm also in the process of testing out cantrippy type cards such as Ponder/Preordain/Gitaxian Probe Ill let you know how I like them!


    Two of those are banned. I recommend Probe, Serum Visions, and Sleight of Hand.

    I ended up dropping down to just the Visions personally, but that might even change once I test Riddlesmith/Locket build.
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  • #22
    Quote from asheroth
    Just curious if this situation will work...

    Lets just say you have a Lotus Bloom suspended on the field, Reshape in hand, and a Conjurer's Bauble on the field. If you have no Blooms left in your deck can you sac the Bloom then while the Reshape trigger is on the stack Bauble the Bloom then use Reshape to find the Bloom?

    Since sacrificing an artifact is part of the cost to play Reshape I feel like this would work but not sure.


    Wait a sec, are you saying...

    that you are casting reshape, and saccing lotus bloom as part of the cost, then baubling it back into the deck and letting the reshape resolve to fetch it out?

    That works, but...
    why would you do that? Just curious. It doesn't ramp, it doesn't trigger riddlesmith, and it doesn't increase the number of lotus blooms you'll have after sunrise. It doesn't seem to have a purpose, since saccing lotus bloom to get its mana is a part of ITS cost. A "can't have your cake and eat it too" situation if I've ever seen one ^^;

    I guess I've been explaining it wrong about reshape targets. Chromatic star is useful to keep around longer than the other eggs that can turn sideways to get their draw. The truth is that flasks just tend to sit there after being recurred until you need to sunrise again. Then you sac them to their own ability. I'll have to ammend the primer to reflect this better.

    Speaking of flask, I think I have the "fixing" interaction pretty pegged down, but maybe I should pose the question to a judge to really find out. I've done things like activate ghost quarter, sac it and an island, and then sac flask for it's ability in response to tap the other untapped islands for white, and then let ghost quarter resolve and tap them for blue.

    *oh yeah, another fun interaction is using conjurer's bauble to put the island you sac to the ghost quarter back in the deck when you have no more island in the deck in order to trigger lotus cobra one extra time. Becomes the only play during double ghost quarter games where you've exhausted your islands early and have an excess of artifacts in your hand that you didn't have the mana to cast the last time you sunrised.

    edit: just realized, you aren't reading conjurer's bauble wrong are you?

    It says "up to 1 card from your graveyard" which means 0 OR 1 card. You can in fact just tap it to draw a card. Which is what i do with the other artifacts when I'm already fixed up- "U for U, whatevs".
    Last edited by Blitz Reloaded: 11/12/2011 4:35:26 AM
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  • #23
    Oops forgot about the bannings :/ but Gitaxian Probe has been working extremely well for me. Also I was originally asking about a suspended Lotus but I realized that a suspended card isn't counted as a permanent. I've also been running into a lot of problems with Laboratory Maniac getting Path-ed so Ive been testing other win-cons and Bitter Ordeal is looking very appealing to me.

    Also if you self sacriface an Elsewhere Flask while a Ghost Quarter is in the graveyard if you bring the Quarter back does it get the basic land type too?
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  • #24
    Quote from asheroth
    Also if you self sacriface an Elsewhere Flask while a Ghost Quarter is in the graveyard if you bring the Quarter back does it get the basic land type too?


    See, that's kind of what I was saying doesn't happen. But hypothetically, you COULD sunrise with the flask sac ability on the stack!
    Last edited by Blitz Reloaded: 11/12/2011 5:59:58 AM
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  • #25
    Bitter Ordeal is a cute idea, and I think a bit easier to get rolling for Storm Count. Problem is if you're running both that and Grapeshot... suddenly you're keeping track of two different kinds of Storms... and heaven forbid if you're running Lotus Cobra and having to keep track of mana. Smile

    I like it, but there is already a ton of math involved here, which can cause play mistakes.
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