Hi everyone, sorry for the double post but I have an announcement. We're starting the process to update this deck's Primer. It looks like Rain is no longer an active user and some sections of the primer are either out of date or were never put in.
I have a primer I've been working on for a while that was meant as a blog post but I'd like to contribute it here, where I think it will be more useful. I ask this forum to please review the sections and comment on the Google Doc. I'm looking for additional input on the tips, FAQs, matchup section. Keep in mind that the intent is to keep a similar format to what we have. I'm also opening the Doc up to the Reddit community.
If you make a comment, keep in mind that it might/might not be incorporated and I might contact you to discuss it further. My intent is for this to be a large community effort and in the end, we have something we're all happy with.
EDIT: I intend on leaving this up for comment until 5/13/2017.
As a reminder, there is roughly a day left to comment on the Primer. Again, this will be the new primer for this thread so this is your chance to provide input on matchups and tips/tricks.
I know it's been talked about on here, but I can't find the discussion. Thoughts on Tireless Tracker as a sideboard threat in grindy matchups? I currently have Harmonize for that, and it has been very good. Tracker would be a similar card that doubles as a threat or chump-blocker.
Also, thoughts on going down to 0-1 Obstinate Baloths in the side? I only seem to bring them in against Burn or Goblins, which I don't see all THAT often in leagues.
My record in leagues so far is:
2-3: 1
3-2: 3
4-1: 5
I have only gotten one 5-0 back with Suicide Bloo. It's so hard to 5-0! Even if you are 70% against the entire field, that only gives a 17% likelihood of going 5-0. That drops to 8% if you are 60% against the field. Crazy!
I think you meant Obstinate Baloth, that card is great against a lot of decks. I love it versus control and midrange decks, and it's decent against aggro for blocking and life gain. But, I prefer sweepers against those.
Also, Tireless Tracker is great for grindy matchups. If they don't kill it, it kills them and gets you insane card advantage. I personally don't find it necessary though, as I find those to be favored matchups. Especially for the jund list.
Its super hard to 5-0. I can 4-1 pretty regularly, but there is always the one match that gets you.
I usually play with a 3/1 split of Baloth and Tracker. Its just how you want to diversify the threats you keep in your SB. I also like bringing in Tracker in matches where I'm likely to get Blood Mooned out. Since you're throwing Titans on the field anyway (Turns into 6/6 Trample; Grab Two Lands, Draw Two Cards), the clue generation legitimately serves a purpose in helping you find an answer to Moon or to spam more Titans/Baloths. We might be one of the only decks that can really abuse the clue generation (maybe RG Ponza).
Yeah I always seem to run into one bad matchup or one match where I draw really poorly. The difference in prizes between 5-0 and 4-1 is so huge that it hurts to start 3-0 then lose!
RE: Baloth vs Tracker
I haven't tried Trackers yet, but it feels like they would be better in all but 2 scenarios:
1) Against Burn/Goblins where you need the life gain to survive
2) Against generic discard (i.e. LotV and Kolaghan's Command). Command gets sided out against us, doesn't it? And against LotV, the opponent will often lead with 1-2 target discard spells so they know whether we have Baloth in hand or not and would avoid the blowout.
I could see running 1 Baloth as a Pact target against Burn or LotV, but in all other cases, isn't Tracker much better? Granted, in topdeck mode it's a smaller body than the 4/4 Baloth, but any topdecked land makes it a million times better.
Before I cut down my sideboard Baloths, are there other situations where you want to bring them in?
[Edit] I read through the Google doc over the weekend. Great work! I learned a lot from your advice, in particular: finding fetchlands with Titan so you can maximize your damage the following turn. It's not ALWAYS the right play, but it's a great plan to keep in mind.
I'm actually super happy when I hit 3 wins because that just means I get to reroll (you just get your play points back). I haven't paid for a league since I started MTGO and have gotten some quality testing in.
RE: Baloth vs Tracker.
I don't know if you can throw a blanket statement over if its better. To me, Baloth is just sort of super generic. More often than not, the 4 life and the butt against a field of decks can give you the turn to set up. Not to say one is better than the other.
K-Command shouldn't get sided out. The decks that would play it are siding out 4 Pushes, some decays/terminate, maybe some other dead cards and they wouldn't have that much to bring in. A quick review of a Jund Shadow primer indicates this is the case (out tarfire, pushes, decay, and new Lili)
Now that I think about it, the fetchland thing has come up in my past few Affinity matches. Sometimes when you cast Titan you know you can only really get a Valakut trigger off it if you're trying (with the exception of other scenarios). You don't set yourself up too well to do lethal on the next turn, so you just set the board to say "you have to win next turn or I'm going to untap and throw a bunch of lighting bolts and a hulk at you"
Baloth is invaluable since it usually gives you a couple of extra turns at least, and that is all you need since you have ten spells that just win the game most of the time.
Preparing for the SCG Louisville Modern Classic this weekend. Any opinions on Hornet Nest currently? I've bene playing it in SB for a few weeks and have loved it.
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Decks Modern UGWRB Humans G Mono-Green Tron UWBR Ad Nauseam
My opinion is that if it works well for you and you are comfortable using it, then you should use it at the tournament. Personally though, I'm not a huge fan as it seems likely that you will waste a turn casting it for it to eat a Fatal Push, terminate, or abrupt decay.
So, I just saw on MTGStocks a list that 5-0'd a competitive league revisiting the naya splash. It was running 2 new Chandra, 2 nahiri, and 2 oracle of mul daya. While I'm not sure the oracle is great, did anyone (maybe nookular boy since I know you tried naya for a bit) ever try nahiri? I know the RG Breach lists used to but don't anymore.
Digs for scapeshift/titan, ramps you into titan, acts as removal and as an alternate win condition.
She does a lot of things and all of them well, it's replacing Khan Heart Expedition, which is a horrible top deck and a ramp spell that dies to abrupt decay, so it's not ideal.
To me, all the flex spots always come down to personal preference and playstyle. Everyone on this sub has proven over and over again that the core cards and strategy is good. Courser might be the exception since its the closest maindeckable card against aggro decks for Scapeshift.
I'm still playing with Khalni Heart Expediton and Prismatic Omen.
I personally think a lot of those "flex slot" cards are really bad.
Even chandra and courser of kruphix are not good at all in Titanshift in my oppinion.
Of course those cards are good on a vacuum but not in this deck.
I have never tested oracle, but i assume it's maybe even worse than courser.
As for Nahiri... the card itself is obviously strong.
And it has some nice value in our deck by removing blood moons and leylines.
But other than that it has the same problem as chandra.
It doesn't advance our gameplan and gets removed very easily.
It also slightly hurts our manabase.
The main reason to play white is the sideboard cards.
But even those aren't necessarily good in my oppinion.
Rest in piece can be worse than relic in our deck.
Timely reinforcement can be a blowout but is it really worth it to splash white for that?
We already have baloth.
By the way it's interesting that a lot of lists on mtgtop8 now run the wood elves after i have suggested it here.
Courser of Kruphix is good. It helps deal with Aggro in 2 ways, and helps dig for lands to win. Almost every list that is doing well these days runs 2-3. I agree on Oracle being bad. 4 mana is a lot for an effect that we have in Explore which is already not great. And while Chandra might not be amazing, it's removal and card draw. And, if unanswered, her ultimate turns ramp spells into lava axes. A lot of successful lists are running her.
And wood elves is bad. It's been seen as a one of now and then forever basically, but it's pretty bad. 3 mana is the issue on that one. The curve of the deck can't support too many 3 drops as it need so many 2 drops. And Courser is a far better 3 drop.
And, I believe the main use for nahiri is to plus a few times filtering cards a little if you want, then ult and drop a Titan. But it giving mainboard answers to heteful enchantments is nice too.
I'm still gonna stick with the Jund list, I have more fun and more success with it. It feels solid, performs well for me, and shapes up really well against my meta. Especially now that I put one Sweltering Suns main.
I agree with nookularboy: the flex slots are exactly that, flex. There is no "right" answer for these slots or else they would be considered maindeck staples.
Personally, I enjoy not having any maindeck removal and instead using cantripping disruption (Relic), keep-the-lands-coming-with-lifegain-attached (Courser), Pact+removal/lifegain (Primal Command), and raw card draw (Harmonize). But I could see an argument for other cards, too. I think Courser is more important in my build since I can't remove enemy creatures maindeck, so the life gain helps negate some of their damage. I could see a case for Wood Elves as a quasi-Courser. Turn 3 Elves/Search + another 2-mana ramp is pretty solid.
Farseek vs Explore: Lately I have been less and less impressed with Explore. On turn 2, I pretty much always want Farseek (or STE if I need a basic Forest). I rarely have enough lands in hand that I get use out of Explore other than a 2-mana cantrip. Many lists run 4 Explore and 2 Farseek. I already switched to 3-3 and am considering going to 2-4. Thoughts?
Almost every list that is doing well these days runs 2-3.
That's simpy not true.
And wood elves is bad. It's been seen as a one of now and then forever basically, but it's pretty bad. 3 mana is the issue on that one. The curve of the deck can't support too many 3 drops as it need so many 2 drops. And Courser is a far better 3 drop.
Well let's use your arguments then.
Why is Khalni-heart expedition replaced by chandra? Didn't you just say we need 2-drops?
Why is courser in the deck then?
Wood Elves is a much better 3-drop than courser. It always gives you a land right away and it finds the lands you really want to find. It also only costs 2 Mana if you cast it later, because the land comes untapped. That means just like Steve and Farseek it can be cast for the win if you have 6 lands and scapeshift in hand.
If people are really playing cards like chandra, courser and nahiri because they plan to use them to generate value over multiple turns then they do simply not understand how this deck works.
With this Deck you want to win fast and straight forward.
You want cards that allow for this to happen while you don't die.
That's why sakura-tribe is so insane. That's why wood elves is good.
That's why chandra doesn't belong in my oppinion and that's why i don't think courser belongs either.
Whenever i either played with it myself or played against it it was simply underwhelming. (in titanshift, not in other decks)
If you want to win as fast as possible and try not to die in the meantime, you should be playing through the breach. This deck can win quickly, but it is not a race to the finish. We play Courser (some people use Chandra) to generate value over multiple turns because this deck isn't a race to the finish combo deck that folds to counters or discard, it's a deck with the longevity and inevitability to crap on midrange and control. Courser and Chandra help all of those matchups while Wood elves can only ever help one.
I'm not gonna get in some drawn out fight about flex slots. If you think wood elves is so amazing, tell us and then run it yourself. But Courser is far better. Not only does it shore up Aggro matchups, it's also good against midrange and control. We are a good deck because we are fast/disruptive enough to beat Aggro, and have inevitability against midrange and control. Courser helps both.
As for Chandra, I personally don't run the card, I was trying to explain why others run it.
Edit: @coinmagic45 on Explore vs Farseek. I agree. Explore has been underperforming a lot for me. Especially now that I'm running Courser, I even find the cantrip less useful. It definitely has its moments, but I am down to 2 copies.
If you noodle the math, you risk taking 3 to the dome and losing your blocker (taking another 2 minimum from a creature). Getting rid of it immediately lets you essentially fade a Bolt and strand a card in their hand. It seems to me like its the best play for game 1. Games 2 and 3, I agree leave it back to stand guard. Does anyone else do it differently?
Courser:
-Can "miss" by just being removed immediatly or not finding a land on top
-Doesn't ramp
-Requires multiple turns to actually generate value
-gives your opponent information too
-doesn't generate any value if it is used to chump
-Can block small creatures multiple times and buy time against burn and similar decks
-Also can't be played on turn 2, but always cost you 3 Mana instead of only 2 later on.
I'm not trying to continue this argument. I just want to point out something that, as a judge, I see people get wrong a lot. After a creature resolves on your main phase, you have priority again and can play a land and get that trigger before the opponent can kill it. So it can't miss by being killed immediately unless you don't have a land to play or don't see a land on top.
As for he question about sacrifing STE immediately game 1 against burn, I don't. There are more creatures I'd rather block for value than the chance I lose value by not sacrifing it.
Edit: in response to nookularboy, that situation only happens if they draw one card that isn't a 4-of maindeck (in lists I've seen) and even if it's a 4-of, that's only 4 cards, not super high odds they have it. Whereas blocking always gives you value. I think in the long run you lose more life to missing out on blocks than you gain by stranding Searing Blaze in hand.
All that being said, I don't thinking sacrifing immediately is strictly bad. Especially if you think the have the blaze for some reason. I just don't love trying to play around that corner situation.
I'm not trying to continue this argument. I just want to point out something that, as a judge, I see people get wrong a lot. After a creature resolves on your main phase, you have priority again and can play a land and get that trigger before the opponent can kill it. So it can't miss by being killed immediately unless you don't have a land to play or don't see a land on top.
Courser does not allow you to play additional lands my friend.
There also isn't a guarantee that you see a land when you untap with it.
Gaining 1 life from playing a land isn't enough to justify playing a card.
He said nothing about getting an additional land from Courser. He was simply saying that the active player can play a land before the opponent can kill it, even if that land is on the top. No, there is no guarantee that the top will have a land. However, Courser is much more than a 2/4 with landfall: gain 1 life. The ability to effectively draw cards by making sure your next draw is a non-land is very valuable. And the life gain IS relevant, even against decks like Storm. I had one game where the Storm player went for 12 Goblins turn 3. I dropped Courser and land. Courser kept the action coming, and the blocking plus life gain kept me alive just long enough to Scapeshift for the win.
Could I have won the game with other cards, such as Anger or Sweltering? Yes. Did Courser help me win that game? Yes.
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As a reminder, there is roughly a day left to comment on the Primer. Again, this will be the new primer for this thread so this is your chance to provide input on matchups and tips/tricks.
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
Also, thoughts on going down to 0-1 Obstinate Baloths in the side? I only seem to bring them in against Burn or Goblins, which I don't see all THAT often in leagues.
My record in leagues so far is:
2-3: 1
3-2: 3
4-1: 5
I have only gotten one 5-0 back with Suicide Bloo. It's so hard to 5-0! Even if you are 70% against the entire field, that only gives a 17% likelihood of going 5-0. That drops to 8% if you are 60% against the field. Crazy!
Also, Tireless Tracker is great for grindy matchups. If they don't kill it, it kills them and gets you insane card advantage. I personally don't find it necessary though, as I find those to be favored matchups. Especially for the jund list.
Modern
I usually play with a 3/1 split of Baloth and Tracker. Its just how you want to diversify the threats you keep in your SB. I also like bringing in Tracker in matches where I'm likely to get Blood Mooned out. Since you're throwing Titans on the field anyway (Turns into 6/6 Trample; Grab Two Lands, Draw Two Cards), the clue generation legitimately serves a purpose in helping you find an answer to Moon or to spam more Titans/Baloths. We might be one of the only decks that can really abuse the clue generation (maybe RG Ponza).
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
RE: Baloth vs Tracker
I haven't tried Trackers yet, but it feels like they would be better in all but 2 scenarios:
1) Against Burn/Goblins where you need the life gain to survive
2) Against generic discard (i.e. LotV and Kolaghan's Command). Command gets sided out against us, doesn't it? And against LotV, the opponent will often lead with 1-2 target discard spells so they know whether we have Baloth in hand or not and would avoid the blowout.
I could see running 1 Baloth as a Pact target against Burn or LotV, but in all other cases, isn't Tracker much better? Granted, in topdeck mode it's a smaller body than the 4/4 Baloth, but any topdecked land makes it a million times better.
Before I cut down my sideboard Baloths, are there other situations where you want to bring them in?
[Edit] I read through the Google doc over the weekend. Great work! I learned a lot from your advice, in particular: finding fetchlands with Titan so you can maximize your damage the following turn. It's not ALWAYS the right play, but it's a great plan to keep in mind.
RE: Baloth vs Tracker.
I don't know if you can throw a blanket statement over if its better. To me, Baloth is just sort of super generic. More often than not, the 4 life and the butt against a field of decks can give you the turn to set up. Not to say one is better than the other.
K-Command shouldn't get sided out. The decks that would play it are siding out 4 Pushes, some decays/terminate, maybe some other dead cards and they wouldn't have that much to bring in. A quick review of a Jund Shadow primer indicates this is the case (out tarfire, pushes, decay, and new Lili)
Now that I think about it, the fetchland thing has come up in my past few Affinity matches. Sometimes when you cast Titan you know you can only really get a Valakut trigger off it if you're trying (with the exception of other scenarios). You don't set yourself up too well to do lethal on the next turn, so you just set the board to say "you have to win next turn or I'm going to untap and throw a bunch of lighting bolts and a hulk at you"
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
Modern
UGWRB Humans
G Mono-Green Tron
UWBR Ad Nauseam
Modern
So, I just saw on MTGStocks a list that 5-0'd a competitive league revisiting the naya splash. It was running 2 new Chandra, 2 nahiri, and 2 oracle of mul daya. While I'm not sure the oracle is great, did anyone (maybe nookular boy since I know you tried naya for a bit) ever try nahiri? I know the RG Breach lists used to but don't anymore.
Thoughts?
Modern
She does a lot of things and all of them well, it's replacing Khan Heart Expedition, which is a horrible top deck and a ramp spell that dies to abrupt decay, so it's not ideal.
I'm still playing with Khalni Heart Expediton and Prismatic Omen.
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
Courser of Kruphix is good. It helps deal with Aggro in 2 ways, and helps dig for lands to win. Almost every list that is doing well these days runs 2-3. I agree on Oracle being bad. 4 mana is a lot for an effect that we have in Explore which is already not great. And while Chandra might not be amazing, it's removal and card draw. And, if unanswered, her ultimate turns ramp spells into lava axes. A lot of successful lists are running her.
And wood elves is bad. It's been seen as a one of now and then forever basically, but it's pretty bad. 3 mana is the issue on that one. The curve of the deck can't support too many 3 drops as it need so many 2 drops. And Courser is a far better 3 drop.
And, I believe the main use for nahiri is to plus a few times filtering cards a little if you want, then ult and drop a Titan. But it giving mainboard answers to heteful enchantments is nice too.
I'm still gonna stick with the Jund list, I have more fun and more success with it. It feels solid, performs well for me, and shapes up really well against my meta. Especially now that I put one Sweltering Suns main.
Modern
Personally, I enjoy not having any maindeck removal and instead using cantripping disruption (Relic), keep-the-lands-coming-with-lifegain-attached (Courser), Pact+removal/lifegain (Primal Command), and raw card draw (Harmonize). But I could see an argument for other cards, too. I think Courser is more important in my build since I can't remove enemy creatures maindeck, so the life gain helps negate some of their damage. I could see a case for Wood Elves as a quasi-Courser. Turn 3 Elves/Search + another 2-mana ramp is pretty solid.
Farseek vs Explore: Lately I have been less and less impressed with Explore. On turn 2, I pretty much always want Farseek (or STE if I need a basic Forest). I rarely have enough lands in hand that I get use out of Explore other than a 2-mana cantrip. Many lists run 4 Explore and 2 Farseek. I already switched to 3-3 and am considering going to 2-4. Thoughts?
If you want to win as fast as possible and try not to die in the meantime, you should be playing through the breach. This deck can win quickly, but it is not a race to the finish. We play Courser (some people use Chandra) to generate value over multiple turns because this deck isn't a race to the finish combo deck that folds to counters or discard, it's a deck with the longevity and inevitability to crap on midrange and control. Courser and Chandra help all of those matchups while Wood elves can only ever help one.
I'm not gonna get in some drawn out fight about flex slots. If you think wood elves is so amazing, tell us and then run it yourself. But Courser is far better. Not only does it shore up Aggro matchups, it's also good against midrange and control. We are a good deck because we are fast/disruptive enough to beat Aggro, and have inevitability against midrange and control. Courser helps both.
As for Chandra, I personally don't run the card, I was trying to explain why others run it.
Edit: @coinmagic45 on Explore vs Farseek. I agree. Explore has been underperforming a lot for me. Especially now that I'm running Courser, I even find the cantrip less useful. It definitely has its moments, but I am down to 2 copies.
Modern
In game 1, do you usually sac the Sakura as soon as you play it to turn off the searing blazes or do you wait until blocking to sac it?
I assume they'll board them out so I'll likely use them to block games 2 and 3.
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
I'm not trying to continue this argument. I just want to point out something that, as a judge, I see people get wrong a lot. After a creature resolves on your main phase, you have priority again and can play a land and get that trigger before the opponent can kill it. So it can't miss by being killed immediately unless you don't have a land to play or don't see a land on top.
As for he question about sacrifing STE immediately game 1 against burn, I don't. There are more creatures I'd rather block for value than the chance I lose value by not sacrifing it.
Edit: in response to nookularboy, that situation only happens if they draw one card that isn't a 4-of maindeck (in lists I've seen) and even if it's a 4-of, that's only 4 cards, not super high odds they have it. Whereas blocking always gives you value. I think in the long run you lose more life to missing out on blocks than you gain by stranding Searing Blaze in hand.
All that being said, I don't thinking sacrifing immediately is strictly bad. Especially if you think the have the blaze for some reason. I just don't love trying to play around that corner situation.
Modern
He said nothing about getting an additional land from Courser. He was simply saying that the active player can play a land before the opponent can kill it, even if that land is on the top. No, there is no guarantee that the top will have a land. However, Courser is much more than a 2/4 with landfall: gain 1 life. The ability to effectively draw cards by making sure your next draw is a non-land is very valuable. And the life gain IS relevant, even against decks like Storm. I had one game where the Storm player went for 12 Goblins turn 3. I dropped Courser and land. Courser kept the action coming, and the blocking plus life gain kept me alive just long enough to Scapeshift for the win.
Could I have won the game with other cards, such as Anger or Sweltering? Yes. Did Courser help me win that game? Yes.