I just put the standard r/g list together with the intention of splashing black once I get the pieces.
First time running it at my LGS last week felt pretty good. I went 3-1 for 3rd
The match I lost was to Blue Tron which felt pretty hopeless both games. Anyone have advice for it? It felt like they could just sit on counters for scapeshift and prime time until they had enough mana to cast wurmcoil without tapping out.
I just put the standard r/g list together with the intention of splashing black once I get the pieces.
First time running it at my LGS last week felt pretty good. I went 3-1 for 3rd
The match I lost was to Blue Tron which felt pretty hopeless both games. Anyone have advice for it? It felt like they could just sit on counters for scapeshift and prime time until they had enough mana to cast wurmcoil without tapping out.
I think your game plan would be the same as against other control decks. Hit your land drops, pressure them with natural Valakut + Mountains. Let Scapeshift and Primeval be your threats they have to hold countermagic up for and just win without them. Then, wait until you can resolve multiple game-winning threats on the same turn. Condescend will nearly tap them out for it to counter something. That just leaves Remand and Spell Burst as useful counterspells. Spell Burst also takes a ton of mana, so it is more likely you will be able to play multiple threats, especially after they tap a lot of mana for a win condition. IMO the hardest part of the matchup is not Wurmcoil but Mindslaver, since they can kill you with your own Valakuts...
Courser is great here, too. It helps hit your land drops for natural Valakut kills and also makes sure you are always drawing real cards every turn. Plus it can come down before most countermagic is online.
Sideboard Baloths put more pressure on them early, and Crumble to Dust basically wins you the game. If you are REALLY worried about this matchup because it's common in your metagame, you could go with the unfair Detritivore Not great against RG Tron because it's so slow, but Mono-Blue Tron can't beat it!
My list took down the SCG Classic yesterday. So much for people here saying it is inconsistent.
lol "my list" I would say its the guys list that won tourney that took it down but yes that was a great weekend for scapeshift. I will correct since this was specified at me, I said I find the black source makes the list more inconsistent for no good reason. Then in a further post I said oh prismatic omen helps that a lot to fix the inconsistency I was finding in my black list. I don't play prismatic omen because I like KHE better for various reasons which we can of course discuss. You seem to take offence easily just from others stating their experiences with lists its really unhelpful to the whole discussion about the deck in general.
In my limited testing with the deck, I am LOVING Courser and Prismatic. Courser stalls the board so well against aggro decks and provides a steady stream of lands against control. Prismatic lets you win out of nowhere and makes your Valakuts INCREDIBLY lethal. I am also really liking maindeck Relics. So many decks right now are really hindered by them and worst-case, they cycle whenever you have extra mana. I am running a mono-green maindeck with sideboard red removal.
My list took down the SCG Classic yesterday. So much for people here saying it is inconsistent.
lol "my list" I would say its the guys list that won tourney that took it down but yes that was a great weekend for scapeshift. I will correct since this was specified at me, I said I find the black source makes the list more inconsistent for no good reason. Then in a further post I said oh prismatic omen helps that a lot to fix the inconsistency I was finding in my black list. I don't play prismatic omen because I like KHE better for various reasons which we can of course discuss. You seem to take offence easily just from others stating their experiences with lists its really unhelpful to the whole discussion about the deck in general.
So you're saying he didn't take my 74 cards and make it into his 75? Is it wrong to say my list? The sideboard, mainboard everything is like I posted for the first time over one month ago.
I'm not offended at all by suggestions, I am offended by people saying something is or is not in a certain way when they don't really have tested it properly. I mean I don't personally care if you don't like the black splash. I was sharing my list here over a month ago for this very reason, so people could win tournaments with it like he did. And so that actual people that have tested it properly can give suggestions to tune it further.
You made lots of "misplays" and claimed that it is basically inconsistent. When it is not that inconsistent. It was no suggestion from your part just an half-assed comment based on one game.
If anything your comment is not helpful since people will think it is inconsistent and won't even give it a try.
I'm buying into Jund Shift now to give it a spin. Been playing the Gruul version but lack removal for DS which cost me a game last night. Just wanna ask - how do I sequence fetching my lands? I would imagine getting a black source down by turns 2/3 is important, and blood crypt is the preferred black land to fetch as it adds to mountain count. Or does it really not matter since we have prismatic omen anyway to make all lands mountains?
And do you have any tips in general / things to look out for when playing Jundshift?
Correct me if I'm way off the mark here, but Samut, Voice of Dissent appears to be insane for Titanshift. You can end-step flash it in to avoid removal, then cast a turn 4 hasted Titan
So, the new boardwipe Sweltering Suns seems like it could be really good. For the RG version, I could see it being played in the main deck over Anger of the Gods. I recognize the power of the Exile clause on anger, but I have been finding it less relevant lately. Personally I might start running 2-3 sweltering suns in the main and 2-3 angers in the board. I personally think the Cycling, even at 3 mana makes it better when we match up against decks that don't care about Anger such as Blue Moon or Tron or Death's Shadow etc. And then I personally like access to 5-6 sweepers across the 75 so having the ones in the board be Anger is best of both worlds.
Thoughts?
Also, and this is directed mostly @Lejoon, when do you bring in the 3 of Collective Brutality in the board? It seems to me that it's either a bad Duress, a bad Shock, or an irrelevant Drain 2 Life. I have felt that even the utility of being either discard or removal or both is rarely worth the 2 mana or the extra card. I know it probably sounds like I've made up my mind, but I really do want to hear how you use them.
Edit: sparkling suns -> sweltering suns with the change in spoiler page.
So, the new boardwipe Sweltering Suns seems like it could be really good. For the RG version, I could see it being played in the main deck over Anger of the Gods. I recognize the power of the Exile clause on anger, but I have been finding it less relevant lately. Personally I might start running 2-3 sweltering suns in the main and 2-3 angers in the board. I personally think the Cycling, even at 3 mana makes it better when we match up against decks that don't care about Anger such as Blue Moon or Tron or Death's Shadow etc. And then I personally like access to 5-6 sweepers across the 75 so having the ones in the board be Anger is best of both worlds.
Thoughts?
Also, and this is directed mostly @Lejoon, when do you bring in the 3 of Collective Brutality in the board? It seems to me that it's either a bad Duress, a bad Shock, or an irrelevant Drain 2 Life. I have felt that even the utility of being either discard or removal or both is rarely worth the 2 mana or the extra card. I know it probably sounds like I've made up my mind, but I really do want to hear how you use them.
Edit: sparkling suns -> sweltering suns with the change in spoiler page.
I agree on Sweltering if you want maindeck board wipe. I am running mono-green maindeck, so it doesn't interest me, but if you are RG then it seems like an upgrade.
Brutality would come in against Burn (nearly an auto-win when you kill their Goblin Guide, make them discard a Bolt, and then gain 2 all for a single card on turn 2). It would also come in against Ad Nauseam where even a bad Duress is still a Duress to take their key card.
But discarding two cards against burn seems bad. Does that actually slow them down more than us? Would we not rather just bolt the guy and cast a ramp spell?
Also, can you give me a link to the mono green maindeck version you are running? I hear people talk about it but don't recall seeing a recent list.
My list took down the SCG Classic yesterday. So much for people here saying it is inconsistent.
lol "my list" I would say its the guys list that won tourney that took it down but yes that was a great weekend for scapeshift. I will correct since this was specified at me, I said I find the black source makes the list more inconsistent for no good reason. Then in a further post I said oh prismatic omen helps that a lot to fix the inconsistency I was finding in my black list. I don't play prismatic omen because I like KHE better for various reasons which we can of course discuss. You seem to take offence easily just from others stating their experiences with lists its really unhelpful to the whole discussion about the deck in general.
So you're saying he didn't take my 74 cards and make it into his 75? Is it wrong to say my list? The sideboard, mainboard everything is like I posted for the first time over one month ago.
I'm not offended at all by suggestions, I am offended by people saying something is or is not in a certain way when they don't really have tested it properly. I mean I don't personally care if you don't like the black splash. I was sharing my list here over a month ago for this very reason, so people could win tournaments with it like he did. And so that actual people that have tested it properly can give suggestions to tune it further.
You made lots of "misplays" and claimed that it is basically inconsistent. When it is not that inconsistent. It was no suggestion from your part just an half-assed comment based on one game.
If anything your comment is not helpful since people will think it is inconsistent and won't even give it a try.
I tested the black splash which is what I have been commenting on all along not "your" deck list. I tested it much more then 1 match up and I still stand by the point that is not needed to splash black at this time and I will continue to stand by it. You make yourself weaker in the mana department for something that isn't needed. I also commented that I like khalni heart expedition a lot better then prismatic omen as another reason to not splash black. I get your extremely focused on your deck list as is the case in many other threads you comment on I am simply offering a different opinion based on my testing and results. I don't think my comments are unhelpful at all I think new comers to this deck should be playing the RG version its more consistent and easier to learn the list and the little things that make this deck great. Remember this is a thread for new comers to learn the deck and people to read to learn how to play against it.
My list took down the SCG Classic yesterday. So much for people here saying it is inconsistent.
lol "my list" I would say its the guys list that won tourney that took it down but yes that was a great weekend for scapeshift. I will correct since this was specified at me, I said I find the black source makes the list more inconsistent for no good reason. Then in a further post I said oh prismatic omen helps that a lot to fix the inconsistency I was finding in my black list. I don't play prismatic omen because I like KHE better for various reasons which we can of course discuss. You seem to take offence easily just from others stating their experiences with lists its really unhelpful to the whole discussion about the deck in general.
So you're saying he didn't take my 74 cards and make it into his 75? Is it wrong to say my list? The sideboard, mainboard everything is like I posted for the first time over one month ago.
I'm not offended at all by suggestions, I am offended by people saying something is or is not in a certain way when they don't really have tested it properly. I mean I don't personally care if you don't like the black splash. I was sharing my list here over a month ago for this very reason, so people could win tournaments with it like he did. And so that actual people that have tested it properly can give suggestions to tune it further.
You made lots of "misplays" and claimed that it is basically inconsistent. When it is not that inconsistent. It was no suggestion from your part just an half-assed comment based on one game.
If anything your comment is not helpful since people will think it is inconsistent and won't even give it a try.
I tested the black splash which is what I have been commenting on all along not "your" deck list. I tested it much more then 1 match up and I still stand by the point that is not needed to splash black at this time and I will continue to stand by it. You make yourself weaker in the mana department for something that isn't needed. I also commented that I like khalni heart expedition a lot better then prismatic omen as another reason to not splash black. I get your extremely focused on your deck list as is the case in many other threads you comment on I am simply offering a different opinion based on my testing and results. I don't think my comments are unhelpful at all I think new comers to this deck should be playing the RG version its more consistent and easier to learn the list and the little things that make this deck great. Remember this is a thread for new comers to learn the deck and people to read to learn how to play against it.
I was with you until that last sentence. While this thread is good for newcomers and people to learn about the deck, that is the job of the Primer. The thread itself is to discuss the deck and what can be changed to make it better, and by extension, how to update the Primer. For a long time, (and I have been reading and posting on this thread almost since it was first made) this thread has been a great place to discuss new tech and lists and splashes. And it still is. You have voiced your opinion about the black splash, and it's great for you to even specify that it's not great for a newcomer as it's harder to pilot. But trying to say this thread is for newcomers and people learning to play against the deck is flat out wrong. And trying to discourage discussion because of that is even more wrong.
Edit: put the quote in spoiler tags when I noticed how big it was.
Adding black really isn't that big of an issue unless one is over thinking the additional color. At this point black is solely for g2 and g3. Against Blood Moon decks your black spells are going to be largely irrelevant so you just need to do a small land adjustment.
Swap those windswept for verdant, 1 of 3 forests for a overgrown tomb and 1 of your stomping grounds to a blood crypt. We're only playing black for Engineered Explosives on 3, Fatal Push, and Slaughter Games. Not having a basic swamp isn't a big deal. Blood Moon is highly overrated against titan shift.
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Adding black really isn't that big of an issue unless one is over thinking the additional color. At this point black is solely for g2 and g3. Against Blood Moon decks your black spells are going to be largely irrelevant so you just need to do a small land adjustment.
Swap those windswept for verdant, 1 of 3 forests for a overgrown tomb and 1 of your stomping grounds to a blood crypt. We're only playing black for Engineered Explosives on 3, Fatal Push, and Slaughter Games. Not having a basic swamp isn't a big deal. Blood Moon is highly overrated against titan shift.
That is true for decks that only sideboard black cards. However, the list they are arguing about runs maindeck 4 Fatal Push and 2 Abrupt Decay in the place of Bolts and Angers, along with 3 Prismatic Omen to help with consistency and combo earlier.
What matches warrant running those MB in this debate?
If the splash was not an issue (i.e. these cards were Red and Green, for example), then it's pretty easy to see them as replacements for damage-based removal in a sea of Death's Shadows and Tarmogoyfs that will NEVER die to Bolt.
In my testing so far, all goyf decks, anything with grim flayers and or Deaths shadow (usually also have to face goyfs there) Eldrazi tron, decks with Blood moon or other problem permanents in the mainboard, that type stuff. Basically the decks that have creatures you can't bolt and permanents that abrupt decay can kill.
They have made a decent number of Game 1's much better and haven't made the aggro matchups that worse. Especially since the sweepers in the side make them way favored anyway
We have a faster game plan than deaths shadow, eldrazi tron, and bant. I don't see why one would remove the best sweeper in modern atm for a hard to cast spell like abrupt decay. Titanshift is still putting up the best combo deck results as pure RG in this meta and that alone should say enough about what should be played main board.
There are plenty of decks you're going to sit across from OTHER than death's shadow. It's not good practice to get tunnel vision when your scared of something making headway in the meta. Flocking to a worse game 1 plan against the field as a whole will cost you games. So far I haven't read anything that should convince anyone that push and decay should be played in our MB at the expense of diluting our game 1.
Black belongs in the sideboard only and Prismatic omen is not warranted . Those omens should just be a real ramp spell to put us in the same position that we would be in regardless with the exception that we have actual board advancement in the form of lands. Not an enchantment that doesn't do anything on its own. Omen hasn't been good enough for some time now and that's not really changed now because of a good GBx deck.
We have a faster game plan than deaths shadow, eldrazi tron, and bant. I don't see why one would remove the best sweeper in modern atm for a hard to cast spell like abrupt decay. Titanshift is still putting up the best combo deck results as pure RG in this meta and that alone should say enough about what should be played main board.
There are plenty of decks you're going to sit across from OTHER than death's shadow. It's not good practice to get tunnel vision when your scared of something making headway in the meta. Flocking to a worse game 1 plan against the field as a whole will cost you games. So far I haven't read anything that should convince anyone that push and decay should be played in our MB at the expense of diluting our game 1.
Black belongs in the sideboard only and Prismatic omen is not warranted . Those omens should just be a real ramp spell to put us in the same position that we would be in regardless with the exception that we have actual board advancement in the form of lands. Not an enchantment that doesn't do anything on its own. Omen hasn't been good enough for some time now and that's not really changed now because of a good GBx deck.
Results-wise, Jund Scapeshift just won SCG Worchester classic last week, out of a field of over 300 players
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I just put the standard r/g list together with the intention of splashing black once I get the pieces.
First time running it at my LGS last week felt pretty good. I went 3-1 for 3rd
The match I lost was to Blue Tron which felt pretty hopeless both games. Anyone have advice for it? It felt like they could just sit on counters for scapeshift and prime time until they had enough mana to cast wurmcoil without tapping out.
I think your game plan would be the same as against other control decks. Hit your land drops, pressure them with natural Valakut + Mountains. Let Scapeshift and Primeval be your threats they have to hold countermagic up for and just win without them. Then, wait until you can resolve multiple game-winning threats on the same turn. Condescend will nearly tap them out for it to counter something. That just leaves Remand and Spell Burst as useful counterspells. Spell Burst also takes a ton of mana, so it is more likely you will be able to play multiple threats, especially after they tap a lot of mana for a win condition. IMO the hardest part of the matchup is not Wurmcoil but Mindslaver, since they can kill you with your own Valakuts...
Courser is great here, too. It helps hit your land drops for natural Valakut kills and also makes sure you are always drawing real cards every turn. Plus it can come down before most countermagic is online.
Sideboard Baloths put more pressure on them early, and Crumble to Dust basically wins you the game. If you are REALLY worried about this matchup because it's common in your metagame, you could go with the unfair Detritivore Not great against RG Tron because it's so slow, but Mono-Blue Tron can't beat it!
How do you feel the list would go without Omens? Could it work?
And for Brutality in the SB, what could I use in that spot until I can get some?
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
lol "my list" I would say its the guys list that won tourney that took it down but yes that was a great weekend for scapeshift. I will correct since this was specified at me, I said I find the black source makes the list more inconsistent for no good reason. Then in a further post I said oh prismatic omen helps that a lot to fix the inconsistency I was finding in my black list. I don't play prismatic omen because I like KHE better for various reasons which we can of course discuss. You seem to take offence easily just from others stating their experiences with lists its really unhelpful to the whole discussion about the deck in general.
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC
I'm buying into Jund Shift now to give it a spin. Been playing the Gruul version but lack removal for DS which cost me a game last night. Just wanna ask - how do I sequence fetching my lands? I would imagine getting a black source down by turns 2/3 is important, and blood crypt is the preferred black land to fetch as it adds to mountain count. Or does it really not matter since we have prismatic omen anyway to make all lands mountains?
And do you have any tips in general / things to look out for when playing Jundshift?
Thoughts?
Also, and this is directed mostly @Lejoon, when do you bring in the 3 of Collective Brutality in the board? It seems to me that it's either a bad Duress, a bad Shock, or an irrelevant Drain 2 Life. I have felt that even the utility of being either discard or removal or both is rarely worth the 2 mana or the extra card. I know it probably sounds like I've made up my mind, but I really do want to hear how you use them.
Edit: sparkling suns -> sweltering suns with the change in spoiler page.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I agree on Sweltering if you want maindeck board wipe. I am running mono-green maindeck, so it doesn't interest me, but if you are RG then it seems like an upgrade.
Brutality would come in against Burn (nearly an auto-win when you kill their Goblin Guide, make them discard a Bolt, and then gain 2 all for a single card on turn 2). It would also come in against Ad Nauseam where even a bad Duress is still a Duress to take their key card.
Also, can you give me a link to the mono green maindeck version you are running? I hear people talk about it but don't recall seeing a recent list.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I tested the black splash which is what I have been commenting on all along not "your" deck list. I tested it much more then 1 match up and I still stand by the point that is not needed to splash black at this time and I will continue to stand by it. You make yourself weaker in the mana department for something that isn't needed. I also commented that I like khalni heart expedition a lot better then prismatic omen as another reason to not splash black. I get your extremely focused on your deck list as is the case in many other threads you comment on I am simply offering a different opinion based on my testing and results. I don't think my comments are unhelpful at all I think new comers to this deck should be playing the RG version its more consistent and easier to learn the list and the little things that make this deck great. Remember this is a thread for new comers to learn the deck and people to read to learn how to play against it.
I was with you until that last sentence. While this thread is good for newcomers and people to learn about the deck, that is the job of the Primer. The thread itself is to discuss the deck and what can be changed to make it better, and by extension, how to update the Primer. For a long time, (and I have been reading and posting on this thread almost since it was first made) this thread has been a great place to discuss new tech and lists and splashes. And it still is. You have voiced your opinion about the black splash, and it's great for you to even specify that it's not great for a newcomer as it's harder to pilot. But trying to say this thread is for newcomers and people learning to play against the deck is flat out wrong. And trying to discourage discussion because of that is even more wrong.
Edit: put the quote in spoiler tags when I noticed how big it was.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Swap those windswept for verdant, 1 of 3 forests for a overgrown tomb and 1 of your stomping grounds to a blood crypt. We're only playing black for Engineered Explosives on 3, Fatal Push, and Slaughter Games. Not having a basic swamp isn't a big deal. Blood Moon is highly overrated against titan shift.
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
That is true for decks that only sideboard black cards. However, the list they are arguing about runs maindeck 4 Fatal Push and 2 Abrupt Decay in the place of Bolts and Angers, along with 3 Prismatic Omen to help with consistency and combo earlier.
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
If the splash was not an issue (i.e. these cards were Red and Green, for example), then it's pretty easy to see them as replacements for damage-based removal in a sea of Death's Shadows and Tarmogoyfs that will NEVER die to Bolt.
They have made a decent number of Game 1's much better and haven't made the aggro matchups that worse. Especially since the sweepers in the side make them way favored anyway
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
There are plenty of decks you're going to sit across from OTHER than death's shadow. It's not good practice to get tunnel vision when your scared of something making headway in the meta. Flocking to a worse game 1 plan against the field as a whole will cost you games. So far I haven't read anything that should convince anyone that push and decay should be played in our MB at the expense of diluting our game 1.
Black belongs in the sideboard only and Prismatic omen is not warranted . Those omens should just be a real ramp spell to put us in the same position that we would be in regardless with the exception that we have actual board advancement in the form of lands. Not an enchantment that doesn't do anything on its own. Omen hasn't been good enough for some time now and that's not really changed now because of a good GBx deck.
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Results-wise, Jund Scapeshift just won SCG Worchester classic last week, out of a field of over 300 players