http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials
This new Gideon looks really good against Burn. It provides a beater that's bigger than our threats, it protects itself or other important permanents(e.g. manlands, other beaters, mana dorks, etc) from damage, and stalls the game in the opponent's favour by preventing us from winning when they get low. Combine this with other Burn hate cards like Worship, Leyline of Sanctity, Collective Brutality and life-gain, I may be a bit alarmist, but this might cause Burn to lose its Tier 1 status. And even some more.
Perhaps we could transition into Jund, utilising Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. But, I don't really know.
Yeah, you're overreacting. This card costs double white, which means it's hard to splash and won't show up frequently.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials
This new Gideon looks really good against Burn. It provides a beater that's bigger than our threats, it protects itself or other important permanents(e.g. manlands, other beaters, mana dorks, etc) from damage, and stalls the game in the opponent's favour by preventing us from winning when they get low. Combine this with other Burn hate cards like Worship, Leyline of Sanctity, Collective Brutality and life-gain, I may be a bit alarmist, but this might cause Burn to lose its Tier 1 status. And even some more.
Perhaps we could transition into Jund, utilising Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. But, I don't really know.
Yeah, you're overreacting. This card costs double white, which means it's hard to splash and won't show up frequently.
Dies to Boros Charm even if they plus or any two burn spells. Gets hit by Eidelon. If they choose to make an emblem, can you bolt it in response? Planes walkers have been the one thing I rarely worry about.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials
This new Gideon looks really good against Burn. It provides a beater that's bigger than our threats, it protects itself or other important permanents(e.g. manlands, other beaters, mana dorks, etc) from damage, and stalls the game in the opponent's favour by preventing us from winning when they get low. Combine this with other Burn hate cards like Worship, Leyline of Sanctity, Collective Brutality and life-gain, I may be a bit alarmist, but this might cause Burn to lose its Tier 1 status. And even some more.
Perhaps we could transition into Jund, utilising Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. But, I don't really know.
Yeah, you're overreacting. This card costs double white, which means it's hard to splash and won't show up frequently.
Dies to Boros Charm even if they plus or any two burn spells. Gets hit by Eidelon. If they choose to make an emblem, can you bolt it in response? Planes walkers have been the one thing I rarely worry about.
There's no way to stop the emblem if they play Gideon and activate that mode immediately after it enters, since you don't get priority after it enters and before they activate it. You can respond to the emblem mode by killing them before it resolves just like you can respond to any planeswalker mode. Killing Gideon in response to the emblem won't stop the emblem, but it will turn the emblem off until another Gideon shows up.
I think the new Gideon is good against non interactive combo decks such as Ad Nauseam, however, as elconquistador1985 said, the double white makes it hard to maindeck. It seems like a decent sideboard card in decks like Abzan CoCo, maybe Bant Eldrazi.
However, this new Gideon isn't as good against Burn as white Leyline or Collective Brutality. We can easily kill him.
On another topic, what do you guys think of the new trend of Boros Burn sideboarding Atarka's Command?
Personally I think Atarka's Command is a mainboard card and you should run it, even if you're not running Wild Nacatl (which I think it is not a good card in Burn). Also, if you're running Boros and put Commands in your sideboard, you should Naya-up, hit those Stomping Grounds and run it mainboard.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials
This new Gideon looks really good against Burn. It provides a beater that's bigger than our threats, it protects itself or other important permanents(e.g. manlands, other beaters, mana dorks, etc) from damage, and stalls the game in the opponent's favour by preventing us from winning when they get low. Combine this with other Burn hate cards like Worship, Leyline of Sanctity, Collective Brutality and life-gain, I may be a bit alarmist, but this might cause Burn to lose its Tier 1 status. And even some more.
Perhaps we could transition into Jund, utilising Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. But, I don't really know.
I think you're overreacting.
I agree. One Boros Charm, he's toast and that emblem means nothing. We have 16+ cards that can smash him in the face and he probably won't last two turns. The only real issue is that burn to the face must be wasted on this threat that we must immediately answer. If they emblem right out of the gate then it's a simple bolt or spike that'll answer him and we're back to our game plan.
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On another topic, what do you guys think of the new trend of Boros Burn sideboarding Atarka's Command?
Personally I think Atarka's Command is a mainboard card and you should run it, even if you're not running Wild Nacatl (which I think it is not a good card in Burn). Also, if you're running Boros and put Commands in your sideboard, you should Naya-up, hit those Stomping Grounds and run it mainboard.
I play Boros+DRev and sideboard two Commands. I find it useful because the decks you typically need the extra lifegain hate for are slow enough that it helps mitigate the extra fetch/shock damage. Having said that, I anecdotally feel like lifegain has been on the downswing lately, so they might not be as good right now. But, not because you have to splash green for them, but because lifegain overall seems thin.
I took my list to a local GPT to a 3-1-1 finish. The deck is gas. The swiss loss was due to player error, the last round was 2-0 even though we ID, and my loss in the quarterfinals was also due to player error. I just don't get to play often enough to see everything immediately. Had I won in the quarters, I would have played against the round 5 opponent again (likely win), then against Jeskai Nahiri in the finals. I'm not sure how that match-up is, but I'm slightly ahead against him with this list.
While not as aggresive as Swiftspear that ability makes him really interesting as it's not totally irrelevant. When you play for Searing Blaze on Thought Knot seer which blocks this guy it Will shrink TKS to the points where it doesn't even trade with your creature. You can also Searing blaze something big when it attacks to get 3 less damage. He's probably not going to make it to Modern lists, but it's nice to discuss most pushed red 1 drop since Swiftspear.
Edit: just realized - x/x is not until end of turn, it makes it even better.
With that guy on the board you can actually kill Kitchen Finks with Bolt without triggering persist, pretty cool.
It's not good at all for Burn. No haste, the effect is too situational to matter. I would rather run Raging Goblin. I know you said you believe it won't make it into Modern lists, but then the Modern Burn forum isn't really the place to bring him up.
I could see this potentially being good SB vs Eldrazi and other creature decks that just outclass our creatures too fast. If I felt the field was going to be a lot of Eldrazi I could see siding this in over Swiftspears.
However the sideboard is really tight and it would have to be astonishingly good vs those decks for it to make its way in. I still plan to test it regardless specifically against Bant Eldrazi and Eldrazi Tron. I really hate that match up and would be willing to dedicate sideboard if it was really that effective. Currently I play path and deflecting palm and hope for the best.
I took my list to a local GPT to a 3-1-1 finish. The deck is gas. The swiss loss was due to player error, the last round was 2-0 even though we ID, and my loss in the quarterfinals was also due to player error. I just don't get to play often enough to see everything immediately. Had I won in the quarters, I would have played against the round 5 opponent again (likely win), then against Jeskai Nahiri in the finals. I'm not sure how that match-up is, but I'm slightly ahead against him with this list.
I actually built your list on MTGO minus the bridges which i just dont have yet. I found the usual issues came up with specific cards you chose to run with. Vexing devil is never the choice I wanted them to make and it was also outclassed quickly vs Eldrazi and DSJ. Gonti was inconsistent and a dead draw late game even when I went out of my way to try and hold them in play as long as possible to build extra energy. Bump is cool, but I was always a fan, just bump alone isn't enough reason for me to splash black over the other options. I'm glad to see you dropped the number of blackcleave cliffs down in favor of another fetch, I also had an issue with having too many non fetch lands which made gonti less consistent. I would consider going up to 12 fetches just to make gonti more consistent. I personally would go with some number of grim lavamancer over Devil. Do you play Guerrilla tactic just for Liliana and Kologhan's command decks? Ever consider going with 2 color splashes for either Jund or Mardu? I think both would be very good options as well.
Regarding the new guy, it can make sense to casting a anger of the gods and not killing everything but softing up the damage substantially of the enemy board. Volcanic fallout is better maybe.
I actually built your list on MTGO minus the bridges which i just dont have yet. I found the usual issues came up with specific cards you chose to run with. Vexing devil is never the choice I wanted them to make and it was also outclassed quickly vs Eldrazi and DSJ. Gonti was inconsistent and a dead draw late game even when I went out of my way to try and hold them in play as long as possible to build extra energy. Bump is cool, but I was always a fan, just bump alone isn't enough reason for me to splash black over the other options. I'm glad to see you dropped the number of blackcleave cliffs down in favor of another fetch, I also had an issue with having too many non fetch lands which made gonti less consistent. I would consider going up to 12 fetches just to make gonti more consistent. I personally would go with some number of grim lavamancer over Devil. Do you play Guerrilla tactic just for Liliana and Kologhan's command decks? Ever consider going with 2 color splashes for either Jund or Mardu? I think both would be very good options as well.
How many games did you play? No, Vexing Devil is never the choice you want them to make. That's the nature of them having the choice. But this issue is often an illusion. Is the choice they made better or worse than the effect that the card Vexing Devil replaced would have had? How are you playing Gonti? When are you cracking fetches? I've had very few Gonti's be dead. They're only really dead when they're the last card you draw before you die, you don't have any fetches in play, and you haven't had any Gontis before. That's a rare circumstance, IMO. You shouldn't crack fetches unless you need the mana since there are so many benefits to leaving them behind (Blaze and Gonti main, Grim out of the board). I am happy with the mana. 4 fastlands is too many and extra fetchlands are always wanted, so it was a natural switch. I'm currently messing with several more versions of the deck (all one-drops with Shard Volley and Grim Lavamancer over the twos, and oops all spells Mardu). Yeah, there are a lot of Liliana decks around here, so the Guerrilla Tactics is just a fun-of. I've seen it exactly two times, both of which it was 4 damage. Yes, I've considered both of those splashes, but the main issue is that the splashes only offer two-mana spells to the deck, which goes against the main plan of this deck. Once we're in three colors with 16-20 two-mana spells, we're about a turn slower and drawing more Lava Spikes isn't as good. Once we get past turn 3/4, mana isn't an issue, so paying 2 mana for 4 damage is better than paying 1 mana for 3 damage. Similarly, drawing 2-mana: deal 3, draw a card (Lightning Helix often buys a drawstep) is better. I think the best decks with 16+ 2-mana spells are Naya/Rw(g). This deck just wants to get 'em dead on turn 3 or 4, so the cards can be a little bit weaker, as long as this plan manifests often enough. Yeah, VD is AWFUL off the top, and Machinations sometimes can be, but this decks wants to minimize the number of draw steps, so these kind of issues are intrinsically mitigated. With my first 9 cards, I want to hit my first three land drops, cast 6 spells, and have them dead to a majority of my top-decks every single turn thenafter. I don't know if this is a reasonable plan in the real meta, but it's been doing WORK in mine. The least that would need to change would be +1 Stomping Grounds and +3 Destructive Revelry for a big tournament because there're too many random enchantments out there. In my meta, there's like 4 total Leylines across 2 sideboards and one Ad Nauseum player (who's been on Junk for several weeks), so green just doesn't matter.
I think the new Gideon is basically a three mana Duress in white against us. Usually, one of two things will happen. Either he'll emblem, and then we kill him with a burn spell, or he'll +1 to avoid a burn spell with the hopes of making an emblem next turn, in which case we either kill him with a Charm, any two burn spells, or a burn spell and a creature hit. Either way, we just have to waste a spell on him and move on. I can see him being good in the way that discard is good, but not backbreaking against us.
EDIT: The potential difference is in the double white. Unless a mono-white or Wx deck shows up, which I sort of doubt, they'll likely have to fetch/shock in order to play him in a timely fashion (which they need to do versus Burn). That three damage represents the bolt used to kill him, making a net change of zero. That's incredibly relevant.
This is very similar to the list I run, which is a good feeling. My main differences are having the two Lavamancers in the board for the last Helix and a Shard Volley (cutting a Path and a Command in the board to make room for them), and cutting a second Stomping Grounds in favor for the third Mountain for Path effects. I like to board out the Grounds if I don't need my green sideboard cards and run on 19 lands, it feels like a free sideboard card. It does make me weaker to land destruction effects, but tradeoffs are a part of Magic.
About this new toy I think that maybe we can split nacalt with him, vs Eldrazi/Tarmogoyf/Tasigur... you can attack with him, cast a bolt after block and it become 2/3 that kill all eldrazis/tasigur and also Tarmogoyf. If we follow the Naya path instead of boros I'm sure that this toy ca be played. I'll check it.
Couldn't you also just attack with any of the other creatures (except Lavamancer if he is in your list) and then Bolt after blocks to do 5 damage and kill any of those creatures without adding a creature with no haste that slows the deck down?
About this new toy I think that maybe we can split nacalt with him, vs Eldrazi/Tarmogoyf/Tasigur... you can attack with him, cast a bolt after block and it become 2/3 that kill all eldrazis/tasigur and also Tarmogoyf. If we follow the Naya path instead of boros I'm sure that this toy ca be played. I'll check it.
Couldn't you also just attack with any of the other creatures (except Lavamancer if he is in your list) and then Bolt after blocks to do 5 damage and kill any of those creatures without adding a creature with no haste that slows the deck down?
You could, but then you lose your creature in the process (which is fine). Soul-Scar Mage is not worth playing in this deck. The ability it has is nearly irrelevant and it's a slow Swiftspear otherwise. It would just add bad topdecks to a deck that doesn't want or need more bad topdecks. It's not even worth playing as a sideboard card. If you need to kill those creatures: Path to Exile.
Raging Goblin would be a better option for Burn than this guy.
About this new toy I think that maybe we can split nacalt with him, vs Eldrazi/Tarmogoyf/Tasigur... you can attack with him, cast a bolt after block and it become 2/3 that kill all eldrazis/tasigur and also Tarmogoyf. If we follow the Naya path instead of boros I'm sure that this toy ca be played. I'll check it.
Couldn't you also just attack with any of the other creatures (except Lavamancer if he is in your list) and then Bolt after blocks to do 5 damage and kill any of those creatures without adding a creature with no haste that slows the deck down?
You could, but then you lose your creature in the process (which is fine). Soul-Scar Mage is not worth playing in this deck. The ability it has is nearly irrelevant and it's a slow Swiftspear otherwise. It would just add bad topdecks to a deck that doesn't want or need more bad topdecks. It's not even worth playing as a sideboard card. If you need to kill those creatures: Path to Exile.
Raging Goblin would be a better option for Burn than this guy.
And not losing your creature isn't as important as getting in the extra damage from playing a haste creature instead.
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Yeah, you're overreacting. This card costs double white, which means it's hard to splash and won't show up frequently.
Dies to Boros Charm even if they plus or any two burn spells. Gets hit by Eidelon. If they choose to make an emblem, can you bolt it in response? Planes walkers have been the one thing I rarely worry about.
There's no way to stop the emblem if they play Gideon and activate that mode immediately after it enters, since you don't get priority after it enters and before they activate it. You can respond to the emblem mode by killing them before it resolves just like you can respond to any planeswalker mode. Killing Gideon in response to the emblem won't stop the emblem, but it will turn the emblem off until another Gideon shows up.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Inspiring Vantage
3 Arid Mesa
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
1 Bloodstained Mire
Creatures 14
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Boros Charm
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Rift Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
4 Skullcrack
3 Atarka's Command
3 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
4 Path to Exile
1 Searing Blaze
G1 Tron Eldrazi vs Boros Burn Modern LE
G2 Azban Rock vs Boros Burn Modern LE
G3 Auras vs Boros Burn Modern LE
G4 Death and Taxes vs Boros Burn Modern LE
G5 Jund Shadow vs Boros Burn Modern LE
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However, this new Gideon isn't as good against Burn as white Leyline or Collective Brutality. We can easily kill him.
Personally I think Atarka's Command is a mainboard card and you should run it, even if you're not running Wild Nacatl (which I think it is not a good card in Burn). Also, if you're running Boros and put Commands in your sideboard, you should Naya-up, hit those Stomping Grounds and run it mainboard.
I agree. One Boros Charm, he's toast and that emblem means nothing. We have 16+ cards that can smash him in the face and he probably won't last two turns. The only real issue is that burn to the face must be wasted on this threat that we must immediately answer. If they emblem right out of the gate then it's a simple bolt or spike that'll answer him and we're back to our game plan.
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I play Boros+DRev and sideboard two Commands. I find it useful because the decks you typically need the extra lifegain hate for are slow enough that it helps mitigate the extra fetch/shock damage. Having said that, I anecdotally feel like lifegain has been on the downswing lately, so they might not be as good right now. But, not because you have to splash green for them, but because lifegain overall seems thin.
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I took my list to a local GPT to a 3-1-1 finish. The deck is gas. The swiss loss was due to player error, the last round was 2-0 even though we ID, and my loss in the quarterfinals was also due to player error. I just don't get to play often enough to see everything immediately. Had I won in the quarters, I would have played against the round 5 opponent again (likely win), then against Jeskai Nahiri in the finals. I'm not sure how that match-up is, but I'm slightly ahead against him with this list.
22-6-1 with the deck currently.
4 Swift
4 Devil
3 Eidolon
4 Bolt
4 Rift
4 Spike
4 Gonti's
4 Bump
3 Blaze
3 Crack
2 Crypt
3 Mountain
11 fetch
2 Bridge
2 Smash
2 Grim
3 Claw
1 Charm
1 Eidolon
1 Blaze
1 Crack
1 Cage
1 Guerrilla
It's not good at all for Burn. No haste, the effect is too situational to matter. I would rather run Raging Goblin. I know you said you believe it won't make it into Modern lists, but then the Modern Burn forum isn't really the place to bring him up.
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However the sideboard is really tight and it would have to be astonishingly good vs those decks for it to make its way in. I still plan to test it regardless specifically against Bant Eldrazi and Eldrazi Tron. I really hate that match up and would be willing to dedicate sideboard if it was really that effective. Currently I play path and deflecting palm and hope for the best.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
I actually built your list on MTGO minus the bridges which i just dont have yet. I found the usual issues came up with specific cards you chose to run with. Vexing devil is never the choice I wanted them to make and it was also outclassed quickly vs Eldrazi and DSJ. Gonti was inconsistent and a dead draw late game even when I went out of my way to try and hold them in play as long as possible to build extra energy. Bump is cool, but I was always a fan, just bump alone isn't enough reason for me to splash black over the other options. I'm glad to see you dropped the number of blackcleave cliffs down in favor of another fetch, I also had an issue with having too many non fetch lands which made gonti less consistent. I would consider going up to 12 fetches just to make gonti more consistent. I personally would go with some number of grim lavamancer over Devil. Do you play Guerrilla tactic just for Liliana and Kologhan's command decks? Ever consider going with 2 color splashes for either Jund or Mardu? I think both would be very good options as well.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
How many games did you play? No, Vexing Devil is never the choice you want them to make. That's the nature of them having the choice. But this issue is often an illusion. Is the choice they made better or worse than the effect that the card Vexing Devil replaced would have had? How are you playing Gonti? When are you cracking fetches? I've had very few Gonti's be dead. They're only really dead when they're the last card you draw before you die, you don't have any fetches in play, and you haven't had any Gontis before. That's a rare circumstance, IMO. You shouldn't crack fetches unless you need the mana since there are so many benefits to leaving them behind (Blaze and Gonti main, Grim out of the board). I am happy with the mana. 4 fastlands is too many and extra fetchlands are always wanted, so it was a natural switch. I'm currently messing with several more versions of the deck (all one-drops with Shard Volley and Grim Lavamancer over the twos, and oops all spells Mardu). Yeah, there are a lot of Liliana decks around here, so the Guerrilla Tactics is just a fun-of. I've seen it exactly two times, both of which it was 4 damage. Yes, I've considered both of those splashes, but the main issue is that the splashes only offer two-mana spells to the deck, which goes against the main plan of this deck. Once we're in three colors with 16-20 two-mana spells, we're about a turn slower and drawing more Lava Spikes isn't as good. Once we get past turn 3/4, mana isn't an issue, so paying 2 mana for 4 damage is better than paying 1 mana for 3 damage. Similarly, drawing 2-mana: deal 3, draw a card (Lightning Helix often buys a drawstep) is better. I think the best decks with 16+ 2-mana spells are Naya/Rw(g). This deck just wants to get 'em dead on turn 3 or 4, so the cards can be a little bit weaker, as long as this plan manifests often enough. Yeah, VD is AWFUL off the top, and Machinations sometimes can be, but this decks wants to minimize the number of draw steps, so these kind of issues are intrinsically mitigated. With my first 9 cards, I want to hit my first three land drops, cast 6 spells, and have them dead to a majority of my top-decks every single turn thenafter. I don't know if this is a reasonable plan in the real meta, but it's been doing WORK in mine. The least that would need to change would be +1 Stomping Grounds and +3 Destructive Revelry for a big tournament because there're too many random enchantments out there. In my meta, there's like 4 total Leylines across 2 sideboards and one Ad Nauseum player (who's been on Junk for several weeks), so green just doesn't matter.
EDIT: The potential difference is in the double white. Unless a mono-white or Wx deck shows up, which I sort of doubt, they'll likely have to fetch/shock in order to play him in a timely fashion (which they need to do versus Burn). That three damage represents the bolt used to kill him, making a net change of zero. That's incredibly relevant.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
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This is very similar to the list I run, which is a good feeling. My main differences are having the two Lavamancers in the board for the last Helix and a Shard Volley (cutting a Path and a Command in the board to make room for them), and cutting a second Stomping Grounds in favor for the third Mountain for Path effects. I like to board out the Grounds if I don't need my green sideboard cards and run on 19 lands, it feels like a free sideboard card. It does make me weaker to land destruction effects, but tradeoffs are a part of Magic.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
Couldn't you also just attack with any of the other creatures (except Lavamancer if he is in your list) and then Bolt after blocks to do 5 damage and kill any of those creatures without adding a creature with no haste that slows the deck down?
You could, but then you lose your creature in the process (which is fine). Soul-Scar Mage is not worth playing in this deck. The ability it has is nearly irrelevant and it's a slow Swiftspear otherwise. It would just add bad topdecks to a deck that doesn't want or need more bad topdecks. It's not even worth playing as a sideboard card. If you need to kill those creatures: Path to Exile.
Raging Goblin would be a better option for Burn than this guy.
And not losing your creature isn't as important as getting in the extra damage from playing a haste creature instead.