4. Any tips on more ‘advanced’ lines of play? I have a general sense of playing on curve, saving more flexible spells (Bolt, Helix) over less flexible spells (Spike, Skullcrack), but what are some examples of ‘high-level plays’ available to Burn?
-If your opponent blocks with a Kor Firewalker or another pro red creature, you can use skullcrack to disable the damage prevention and kill the creature
-Try to keep fetch lands against deck with Timely Reinforcements; you can fetch/shock yourself to disable the life gain part of the spell
-It's worth it to bolt yourself to prevent your opponent from gaining 6 off of Timely Reinforcements
-It's good to keep an uncrack fetch or a land in hand in case you draw a Searing Blaze
-In the face of Leyline of Sanctity, you can Lavaspike yourself for prowess triggers, you can also use boros charm for double strike
-If the game goes long, you might want to hold back on your burn (assuming you are not playing against discard) to either be able to trigger prowess if you draw a swiftspear, or to trick your opponent into misjudging how much he can afford to fetch/shock (should still keep yourself in a spot where you can cast everything in your hand + w/e you might draw)
-It's often correct to use boros charm to give Eidolon indestructible (especially if it's currently attacking).
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
Postboard the deck had RIP. And I went full retard customizing the naya build with a single blood crypt for fatal push in the side. And there's deflecting palm. Was really really fun playing burn control.
Do you really need Push when you can have Path?
It was an experiment for some WNM, and because I refused to allow the opponent to out-tempo me (they get more land and potentially curve better and top deck threats slightly bettererer) I'm experimenting taking out 3 Paths and putting in 4 fatals. Am interested in trying rakdos burn so that may be necessary.
On other news, new ruling: turn // burn now 5CMC so affects some cards. Meaning Kari Zev's expertise is also affected: does that mean we no longer need to side out ALL creatures cuz such a deck is now moot?
Hey all! So I'm popping in the thread (as a reader for a while) to ask a question from a non-burn player currently. Right now Eidelon is stupidly expensive on MTGO (where I play), so do you think the deck can function at a tier 1-ish level without it? I'd love to get some feedback and some alternatives if possible. I just can't drop $125+ on 4 cards right now.
Cheers!
A great substitute for eidolon is Keldon Marardurs, and essentially it functions like an eidolon "Lite". It does two damage if it is removed by a spell, it has a huge damage potiental if left unchecked. Eidolon is certainly better, cuz Eidolon doesn't even have to attack in to be good, but I play tested Keldon Maraurders while my goblin guides were out of commission and I was thourgouly impressed. Much more so impressed with the Keldons than the hellspearks.
Anyone interested in trying Hazoret the Fervent as a one of in burn? Its repeatable damage, hasty indestructible 5 damage threat. I know 4 mana is not where we wanna be, but it seems like a good choice if you keep drawing land late game.
We don't even play 3 mana spells anymore, and Hazoret's downside is really painful. I don't see it going anywhere near Burn. Maybe Skred or any other "Big Red" type of deck, but not Burn.
Anyone interested in trying Hazoret the Fervent as a one of in burn? Its repeatable damage, hasty indestructible 5 damage threat. I know 4 mana is not where we wanna be, but it seems like a good choice if you keep drawing land late game.
4 mana sometimes 5/4 Haste with a 3 mana ability that costs a card and deals as much damage as Grim Lavamancer? Not at all worth playing in Burn.
Anyone interested in trying Hazoret the Fervent as a one of in burn? Its repeatable damage, hasty indestructible 5 damage threat. I know 4 mana is not where we wanna be, but it seems like a good choice if you keep drawing land late game.
Seems like a poor fit. Play Hazoret so that you turn your Boros Charms and Lava Spikes into Shocks? I mean, in Modern Burn he seems worse than Ball Lightning.
Postboard the deck had RIP. And I went full retard customizing the naya build with a single blood crypt for fatal push in the side. And there's deflecting palm. Was really really fun playing burn control.
Do you really need Push when you can have Path?
It was an experiment for some WNM, and because I refused to allow the opponent to out-tempo me (they get more land and potentially curve better and top deck threats slightly bettererer) I'm experimenting taking out 3 Paths and putting in 4 fatals. Am interested in trying rakdos burn so that may be necessary.
On other news, new ruling: turn // burn now 5CMC so affects some cards. Meaning Kari Zev's expertise is also affected: does that mean we no longer need to side out ALL creatures cuz such a deck is now moot?
Agreed. The B variants have been discussed plenty on this thread, and found wanting. I even took one out for a spin myself for a time. It just doesn't do enough.
On other news, new ruling: turn // burn now 5CMC so affects some cards. Meaning Kari Zev's expertise is also affected: does that mean we no longer need to side out ALL creatures cuz such a deck is now moot?
Yes, the Brain in a Jar-Expertise split card deck is straight up dead because their rules loophole got closed.
Living End and Goryo's Vengeance decks that play Kari Zev's Expertise still function since they were aiming to play normal cards rather than cheating the expensive part of a split card off of it.
Also, I will echo the sentiments of others that Black doesn't have enough to offer to justify dropping either white or green from the deck.
4. Any tips on more ‘advanced’ lines of play? I have a general sense of playing on curve, saving more flexible spells (Bolt, Helix) over less flexible spells (Spike, Skullcrack), but what are some examples of ‘high-level plays’ available to Burn?
-If your opponent blocks with a Kor Firewalker or another pro red creature, you can use skullcrack to disable the damage prevention and kill the creature
-Try to keep fetch lands against deck with Timely Reinforcements; you can fetch/shock yourself to disable the life gain part of the spell
-It's worth it to bolt yourself to prevent your opponent from gaining 6 off of Timely Reinforcements
-It's good to keep an uncrack fetch or a land in hand in case you draw a Searing Blaze
-In the face of Leyline of Sanctity, you can Lavaspike yourself for prowess triggers, you can also use boros charm for double strike
-If the game goes long, you might want to hold back on your burn (assuming you are not playing against discard) to either be able to trigger prowess if you draw a swiftspear, or to trick your opponent into misjudging how much he can afford to fetch/shock (should still keep yourself in a spot where you can cast everything in your hand + w/e you might draw)
-It's often correct to use boros charm to give Eidolon indestructible (especially if it's currently attacking).
This is a little out of date but I found this reddit thread helped me get into the mindset of burn as a control deck rather than the "tap land, bolt face, go" type of mentality that most people have about burn.
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Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
Hello all, on my LGS the field is not so fast, i usually go 3-1, 4-0 on FNMs with a stock naya burn list.
The games i lose are mostly because of me flooding out or making mistakes, so im trying to maximize the overall damage per card.
I know this sounds bad but i was thinking on playing with 4 tarns + 4 mires so i could include a single Watery Grave to fetch as the 3rd land to finish games with Tribal Flames by paying the colorless mana on that or skullcracks.
I play tested around 10 games, most of them it did not make any difference (did not come to hand). I won 2 games because of it being 5 damage, and had to mulligan one time because the watery grave not being able to produce red mana.
Bad thing it is a sorcery, good thing it can destroy creatures when needed (i know that most of the time it is a bad thing but sometimes it makes a difference).
A Tribal Flames for 5 damage is at the same level of Skullcracking a Kitchen Finks.
Also i thought about a single Blood Crypt instead of watery grave, so thats 4 damage but with a red producing land. Also tought about Magma Jet to scry preventing the flood.
It is taking into consideration a slow field.
What you guys think about that? any other suggestions?
Hello all, on my LGS the field is not so fast, i usually go 3-1, 4-0 on FNMs with a stock naya burn list.
The games i lose are mostly because of me flooding out or making mistakes, so im trying to maximize the overall damage per card.
I know this sounds bad but i was thinking on playing with 4 tarns + 4 mires so i could include a single Watery Grave to fetch as the 3rd land to finish games with Tribal Flames by paying the colorless mana on that or skullcracks.
I play tested around 10 games, most of them it did not make any difference (did not come to hand). I won 2 games because of it being 5 damage, and had to mulligan one time because the watery grave not being able to produce red mana.
Bad thing it is a sorcery, good thing it can destroy creatures when needed (i know that most of the time it is a bad thing but sometimes it makes a difference).
A Tribal Flames for 5 damage is at the same level of Skullcracking a Kitchen Finks.
Also i thought about a single Blood Crypt instead of watery grave, so thats 4 damage but with a red producing land. Also tought about Magma Jet to scry preventing the flood.
It is taking into consideration a slow field.
What you guys think about that? any other suggestions?
There is no reason to add a useless Watery Grave so you can magical christmasland Tribal Flames once in a while. 10 games is far too small of a sample size to draw any conclusions from. I've posted data from playing Bushwhacker Revolt Zoo in that thread and I played a few hundred games with it and that's still a small sample size. Burn is already a deck that's full of redundant "finishers" by virtue of being Lightning Bolt Tribal. It's also not worth playing Magma Jet. Every opening hand where you have a land and a Grave is effectively a 6 card 1-lander. That's terrible and will cost you games. Tribal Flames only makes sense when you're already playing every color and you naturally reach a condition where it's 5 damage through normal game play.
Look at the core of the deck: 4x Guide, Swift, Eidolon, Rift, Spike, Bolt, Charm, and Command (you said Naya), which gets you to 32 cards that are absolutely included no matter what. Then you play 19-20 lands and you're left with 8-9 slots for other cards, "flex spots" if you will. What kinds of cards fill those slots? Searing Blaze, Skullcrack, Lightning Helix, Grim Lavamancer. What are you dropping in order to fit in your Tribal Flames? It can't be any of those first 51-52 cards. You say Tribal Flames can kill creatures, but you can get that without jumping through mana fixing hoops via Searing Blaze. Protect against flood? Grim Lavamancer recycles spent fetches and spells. Occasionally getting a scry 1 and a Shock isn't going to "protect" against flood. A random stack of cards will sometimes flood and sometimes leave you with too few lands. Variance is part of the game.
There are already great spells that fit into the colors you already play, which means it's not necessary to play Tribal Flames. Magma Jet is also inferior to cards that deal 3. It's a card you play in mono-R because you're running out of good burn spells and it's passable when your other options aren't even passable.
You're already going 3-1 and 4-0, just keep lighting your opponents on fire. Work on learning to avoid the mistakes you've said have cost you some games, because that's far more valuable to you than trying something off the wall like Tribal Flames. Burn is a largely solved deck with little room for other things because there are very clear "best Burn spells" and we play them all.
As far as flooding, I find that some of the times when I would want to say "I got land screwed" or "I flooded" after a game in order to blame the loss on lands, the real reason that I lost is because I kept a bad hand. If I keep a bad 1 lander, I didn't get land screwed, I made a mistake.
molten rain vs blood moon when playing against tron, eldrazi, and scapeshift? just looking to hear peoples personal pref cant make up my mind.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
molten rain vs blood moon when playing against tron, eldrazi, and scapeshift? just looking to hear peoples personal pref cant make up my mind.
It depends what build you have. Playing Boros/RW/Mono Red splash W for some tech I have been able to get/crack a Fetch turn 2 for a Plains and turn 3 Blood Moon then usually beat Tron and Eldrazi. As for Scapeshift they have do have bounce cards and counters so its not as big but still helps. As for 3-5 color Molten Rain is a better option. However if your playing Naya and all you need Green for is Atarka's Command cause either your not playing Wild Nacatl or its already out turn 1 you can get away with Blood Moon and you can swap Wear // Tear and Destructive Revelry in that case.
Keep in mind if you run Blood Moon and lock yourself out of a land/mana decide whether you can win without that land cause you've locked the opponent out enough/more damaging to him. RW Prisons and UR Blue Moon run Blood Moon in the main and some other decks 2 or 3 color have Blood Moon in the side. You can proxy and play test both to see which works better for you. I have a play set of both so I have the flexibility of going left or right depending but most of the time I ran Blood Moon using a 2 color build in my RW, RG, RB and Naya builds.
Your play style, meta and mind set is gonna be different then anyone else. The only right answer is what works better for you.
4. Any tips on more ‘advanced’ lines of play? I have a general sense of playing on curve, saving more flexible spells (Bolt, Helix) over less flexible spells (Spike, Skullcrack), but what are some examples of ‘high-level plays’ available to Burn?
-If your opponent blocks with a Kor Firewalker or another pro red creature, you can use skullcrack to disable the damage prevention and kill the creature
-Try to keep fetch lands against deck with Timely Reinforcements; you can fetch/shock yourself to disable the life gain part of the spell
-It's worth it to bolt yourself to prevent your opponent from gaining 6 off of Timely Reinforcements
-It's good to keep an uncrack fetch or a land in hand in case you draw a Searing Blaze
-In the face of Leyline of Sanctity, you can Lavaspike yourself for prowess triggers, you can also use boros charm for double strike
-If the game goes long, you might want to hold back on your burn (assuming you are not playing against discard) to either be able to trigger prowess if you draw a swiftspear, or to trick your opponent into misjudging how much he can afford to fetch/shock (should still keep yourself in a spot where you can cast everything in your hand + w/e you might draw)
-It's often correct to use boros charm to give Eidolon indestructible (especially if it's currently attacking).
This is a little out of date but I found this reddit thread helped me get into the mindset of burn as a control deck rather than the "tap land, bolt face, go" type of mentality that most people have about burn.
Thanks Renaud & Vegita. Much appreciated.
I've done some further Google searching / research and at least have some sort of sideboard plan, but it doesn't feel 'correct' yet. Maybe I'll format it & post it here for some feedback.
Agreed. The B variants have been discussed plenty on this thread, and found wanting. I even took one out for a spin myself for a time. It just doesn't do enough.
Agreed.....I ran through a RB build and it just left me feeling like I needed more. Plus as said earlier but I'll add Path to Exile unless you use but much slower Unmake is way too good against so much in Modern combined with all the other W and G card options. Now Ive seen some Mardu and Jund ones that worked way better then just RB.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials
This new Gideon looks really good against Burn. It provides a beater that's bigger than our threats, it protects itself or other important permanents(e.g. manlands, other beaters, mana dorks, etc) from damage, and stalls the game in the opponent's favour by preventing us from winning when they get low. Combine this with other Burn hate cards like Worship, Leyline of Sanctity, Collective Brutality and life-gain, I may be a bit alarmist, but this might cause Burn to lose its Tier 1 status. And even some more.
Perhaps we could transition into Jund, utilising Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. But, I don't really know.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials
This new Gideon looks really good against Burn. It provides a beater that's bigger than our threats, it protects itself or other important permanents(e.g. manlands, other beaters, mana dorks, etc) from damage, and stalls the game in the opponent's favour by preventing us from winning when they get low. Combine this with other Burn hate cards like Worship, Leyline of Sanctity, Collective Brutality and life-gain, I may be a bit alarmist, but this might cause Burn to lose its Tier 1 status. And even some more.
Perhaps we could transition into Jund, utilising Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. But, I don't really know.
I think you're overreacting.
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-If your opponent blocks with a Kor Firewalker or another pro red creature, you can use skullcrack to disable the damage prevention and kill the creature
-Try to keep fetch lands against deck with Timely Reinforcements; you can fetch/shock yourself to disable the life gain part of the spell
-It's worth it to bolt yourself to prevent your opponent from gaining 6 off of Timely Reinforcements
-It's good to keep an uncrack fetch or a land in hand in case you draw a Searing Blaze
-In the face of Leyline of Sanctity, you can Lavaspike yourself for prowess triggers, you can also use boros charm for double strike
-If the game goes long, you might want to hold back on your burn (assuming you are not playing against discard) to either be able to trigger prowess if you draw a swiftspear, or to trick your opponent into misjudging how much he can afford to fetch/shock (should still keep yourself in a spot where you can cast everything in your hand + w/e you might draw)
-It's often correct to use boros charm to give Eidolon indestructible (especially if it's currently attacking).
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
It was an experiment for some WNM, and because I refused to allow the opponent to out-tempo me (they get more land and potentially curve better and top deck threats slightly bettererer) I'm experimenting taking out 3 Paths and putting in 4 fatals. Am interested in trying rakdos burn so that may be necessary.
On other news, new ruling: turn // burn now 5CMC so affects some cards. Meaning Kari Zev's expertise is also affected: does that mean we no longer need to side out ALL creatures cuz such a deck is now moot?
http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/159168843404/split-cards-cmc-examples-feat-turn-burn
A great substitute for eidolon is Keldon Marardurs, and essentially it functions like an eidolon "Lite". It does two damage if it is removed by a spell, it has a huge damage potiental if left unchecked. Eidolon is certainly better, cuz Eidolon doesn't even have to attack in to be good, but I play tested Keldon Maraurders while my goblin guides were out of commission and I was thourgouly impressed. Much more so impressed with the Keldons than the hellspearks.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
4 mana sometimes 5/4 Haste with a 3 mana ability that costs a card and deals as much damage as Grim Lavamancer? Not at all worth playing in Burn.
Seems like a poor fit. Play Hazoret so that you turn your Boros Charms and Lava Spikes into Shocks? I mean, in Modern Burn he seems worse than Ball Lightning.
I'm not sure there's enough in B to offset the loss of Boros Charm, Deflecting Palm, Lightning Helix, Path, Atarka's Command, and Destructive Revelry.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Yes, the Brain in a Jar-Expertise split card deck is straight up dead because their rules loophole got closed.
Living End and Goryo's Vengeance decks that play Kari Zev's Expertise still function since they were aiming to play normal cards rather than cheating the expensive part of a split card off of it.
Also, I will echo the sentiments of others that Black doesn't have enough to offer to justify dropping either white or green from the deck.
https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/32q3pw/modern_modern_burn_sequencing_guide_and_other_tips/
This is a little out of date but I found this reddit thread helped me get into the mindset of burn as a control deck rather than the "tap land, bolt face, go" type of mentality that most people have about burn.
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
The games i lose are mostly because of me flooding out or making mistakes, so im trying to maximize the overall damage per card.
I know this sounds bad but i was thinking on playing with 4 tarns + 4 mires so i could include a single Watery Grave to fetch as the 3rd land to finish games with Tribal Flames by paying the colorless mana on that or skullcracks.
I play tested around 10 games, most of them it did not make any difference (did not come to hand). I won 2 games because of it being 5 damage, and had to mulligan one time because the watery grave not being able to produce red mana.
Bad thing it is a sorcery, good thing it can destroy creatures when needed (i know that most of the time it is a bad thing but sometimes it makes a difference).
A Tribal Flames for 5 damage is at the same level of Skullcracking a Kitchen Finks.
Also i thought about a single Blood Crypt instead of watery grave, so thats 4 damage but with a red producing land. Also tought about Magma Jet to scry preventing the flood.
It is taking into consideration a slow field.
What you guys think about that? any other suggestions?
There is no reason to add a useless Watery Grave so you can magical christmasland Tribal Flames once in a while. 10 games is far too small of a sample size to draw any conclusions from. I've posted data from playing Bushwhacker Revolt Zoo in that thread and I played a few hundred games with it and that's still a small sample size. Burn is already a deck that's full of redundant "finishers" by virtue of being Lightning Bolt Tribal. It's also not worth playing Magma Jet. Every opening hand where you have a land and a Grave is effectively a 6 card 1-lander. That's terrible and will cost you games. Tribal Flames only makes sense when you're already playing every color and you naturally reach a condition where it's 5 damage through normal game play.
Look at the core of the deck: 4x Guide, Swift, Eidolon, Rift, Spike, Bolt, Charm, and Command (you said Naya), which gets you to 32 cards that are absolutely included no matter what. Then you play 19-20 lands and you're left with 8-9 slots for other cards, "flex spots" if you will. What kinds of cards fill those slots? Searing Blaze, Skullcrack, Lightning Helix, Grim Lavamancer. What are you dropping in order to fit in your Tribal Flames? It can't be any of those first 51-52 cards. You say Tribal Flames can kill creatures, but you can get that without jumping through mana fixing hoops via Searing Blaze. Protect against flood? Grim Lavamancer recycles spent fetches and spells. Occasionally getting a scry 1 and a Shock isn't going to "protect" against flood. A random stack of cards will sometimes flood and sometimes leave you with too few lands. Variance is part of the game.
There are already great spells that fit into the colors you already play, which means it's not necessary to play Tribal Flames. Magma Jet is also inferior to cards that deal 3. It's a card you play in mono-R because you're running out of good burn spells and it's passable when your other options aren't even passable.
You're already going 3-1 and 4-0, just keep lighting your opponents on fire. Work on learning to avoid the mistakes you've said have cost you some games, because that's far more valuable to you than trying something off the wall like Tribal Flames. Burn is a largely solved deck with little room for other things because there are very clear "best Burn spells" and we play them all.
As far as flooding, I find that some of the times when I would want to say "I got land screwed" or "I flooded" after a game in order to blame the loss on lands, the real reason that I lost is because I kept a bad hand. If I keep a bad 1 lander, I didn't get land screwed, I made a mistake.
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
Molten Rain. Blood Moon shuts down your game plan, too. Blood Moon should not be played in Burn outside of mono-R.
It depends what build you have. Playing Boros/RW/Mono Red splash W for some tech I have been able to get/crack a Fetch turn 2 for a Plains and turn 3 Blood Moon then usually beat Tron and Eldrazi. As for Scapeshift they have do have bounce cards and counters so its not as big but still helps. As for 3-5 color Molten Rain is a better option. However if your playing Naya and all you need Green for is Atarka's Command cause either your not playing Wild Nacatl or its already out turn 1 you can get away with Blood Moon and you can swap Wear // Tear and Destructive Revelry in that case.
Keep in mind if you run Blood Moon and lock yourself out of a land/mana decide whether you can win without that land cause you've locked the opponent out enough/more damaging to him. RW Prisons and UR Blue Moon run Blood Moon in the main and some other decks 2 or 3 color have Blood Moon in the side. You can proxy and play test both to see which works better for you. I have a play set of both so I have the flexibility of going left or right depending but most of the time I ran Blood Moon using a 2 color build in my RW, RG, RB and Naya builds.
Your play style, meta and mind set is gonna be different then anyone else. The only right answer is what works better for you.
Thanks Renaud & Vegita. Much appreciated.
I've done some further Google searching / research and at least have some sort of sideboard plan, but it doesn't feel 'correct' yet. Maybe I'll format it & post it here for some feedback.
Agreed.....I ran through a RB build and it just left me feeling like I needed more. Plus as said earlier but I'll add Path to Exile unless you use but much slower Unmake is way too good against so much in Modern combined with all the other W and G card options. Now Ive seen some Mardu and Jund ones that worked way better then just RB.
This new Gideon looks really good against Burn. It provides a beater that's bigger than our threats, it protects itself or other important permanents(e.g. manlands, other beaters, mana dorks, etc) from damage, and stalls the game in the opponent's favour by preventing us from winning when they get low. Combine this with other Burn hate cards like Worship, Leyline of Sanctity, Collective Brutality and life-gain, I may be a bit alarmist, but this might cause Burn to lose its Tier 1 status. And even some more.
Perhaps we could transition into Jund, utilising Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. But, I don't really know.
I think you're overreacting.