This article comes right after burn was the most represented deck in day 2 and got 2 deck in the top 8, including the 2nd place.
Sounds like a troll to get views :/
But I'm kind of grateful... that kind of article coming from a pro will probably convince a few players to skip on the burn hate for the next big event
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
As someone on reddit pointed out to me (while I was arguing with a /r/magictcg mod who claimed that Burn is not tier 1), Ari Lax recently tweeted that Burn is a "joke deck" now, which frankly destroys any credibility he might have had. No one who calls Burn a "joke deck" has a clue what they're talking about.
Thank you. I'm still on the sidelines for this, but even if he turns out right and we do end up with a T2 deck in months to come, I'd like to see two things:
- The data that backs this up currently. He doesn't seem to quote current meta results that support this, so I might have to dig
- He's quoted historical moments previously in modern formats that has happened to support this claim: which moment was that? What year? Which block? What actually shifted and happened?
I'm not aware of any data that supports it. I think it's more of the same clickbait we've seen recently claiming Burn is dead.
Burn is something like 6% of the meta (if you correctly add Boros and Naya) according to mtggoldfish, which puts it on par with 4 other top decks that are at 6%. Modern Nexus still has it in T1 based on their meta+performance determination. It's just incorrect to claim it's not T1 anymore when it very obviously is.
I have been struggling against decks that play collective brutality. is there any good way to play through the card or are we just hoping the meta game stays varied enough so that people cannot play the card in large numbers? it seems like atarka's command is really good to battle against collective brutality. since you can cast it in response and deal damage and save your dude. or you could play another land and another burn spell and force them to take what you want. am I just wrong? thoughts?
SCG Premium article today by Ari Lax quotes burn as a bad deck right now (bold and in big fonts: "Burn. Is. Not. Good. Period."), worse than merfolk. Quotes specifically how it can't fight/race against collective brutality. There are other decks he talks about but comments are starting to come in to disagree with him both subjectively and objectively about burn.
Yes I've been struggling with decks that have collective brutality even before the ban. At first mild, but no good results from matchups that have at least 1 of that card against burn. As I've mentioned before against DS (I've not matched up yet!) I fear the 8 disruptions with the collective brutalities still in the sideboard. Will look for a matchup and report back based off strategies suggested against hand disruptions (replies to my posts)
Add1: That's because collective brutality combines one or more of 4 mechanics:
- feeds their graveyard (delve, delirium, graveyard count)
- removes one of your creatures that burn usually deploys
- disrupts hand (default mode)
- lifegain
Though sorcery speed at 2cmc I don't know of a card that has multiple modes that can answer that default mode and answer all the rest of their modes. Prices of CB are creeping up quite a bit since pre-ban too.
A couple of things about Burn right now.
Collective Brutality is really good at locking Burn out of a game in Death Shadow Jund specifically, because that deck is big, fast, and aggressive even after escalating a CB twice. I have beaten it repeatedly when GB Tron or Grixis have played it against me. It's not an auto-shutdown Burn card the way some players seem to believe/say that it is.
People can hate Burn out of the format, but Magic players are resistant to devoting many sideboard cards to this. The mantra that life gain is not a winning strategy in Magic is largely true, but it causes players to discount the value of playing life gain when it's stapled to good cards like Kitchen Finks and Blessed Alliance. Also, the exact same things being said about Burn can also be said of Affinity. The format can hate out artifacts, but it doesn't do that all the time. These decks just keep posting results, annoy opponents who don't build their decks to beat aggressive decks that care about life totals, and hang around in the top tier of the metagame after many people pronounce them dead repeatedly.
Doesn't Ad Nauseum run 4 Pact of Negation? I mean, maybe you Angel's Grace after they commit their mana into going for it, but they're still like 50%+ to have Pact in-hand by then.
Re: Collective Brutality
He's the second pro that's professed Burn's unplayability in the current metagame for a reason. He's not wrong considering how good Collective Brutality is against us. We just have to change the configuration of our decks, IMO. Atarka's Command should be in the mainboard so you can counter at least one of the modes, independent of the creature with which you've led. Turning off the removal mode is a quick way to stay in the game. I don't think the deck is unplayable a priori, but if you expect half or more of your opponents to pack Collective Brutality, you're either stubborn or stupid to stick with a Boros list.
tl;dr: I love burn; I play burn; I don't think the deck is unplayable unless you routinely face decks with Collective Brutality, in which case it is.
Doesn't Ad Nauseum run 4 Pact of Negation? I mean, maybe you Angel's Grace after they commit their mana into going for it, but they're still like 50%+ to have Pact in-hand by then.
Angel's Grace has Split Second, so it can't be countered unless there's a triggered ability that counters it (something like Counterbalance) or they unmorph something that counters a spell when it's turned face up and they don't play any of those. Cast it after they charge up their Lightning Storm and there's nothing they can do. They'll die to you killing them outright because Grace left them at 1 and you have Bolts or you Poison kill them or they deck themselves on their draw step, unless they have a way to deal 1 damage before any of that happens.
Thanks so much for that. That's the second time today I've failed to RTFC. Sweet tech against Ad Nauseum, then. You can just do it after they've drawn their deck and they'll lose as soon as the turn passes and state-based effects are checked since they lose life for each card they draw, so are typically at some negative life total.
Thanks so much for that. That's the second time today I've failed to RTFC. Sweet tech against Ad Nauseum, then. You can just do it after they've drawn their deck and they'll lose as soon as the turn passes and state-based effects are checked since they lose life for each card they draw, so are typically at some negative life total.
I fail to RTFC all the time. No worries.
It depends, but there's a a couple of ways they'll just die on their own. If they used Grace, they'll be at negative life since Ad Naus causes life loss not damage so Grace doesn't set them to 1 and they die on your upkeep, though they could target themselves with Lightning Storm and leave them at 1. If they had Phyrexian Unlife, they'll be at a huge negative life but won't die unless you get them to 10 poison, blow up Unlife, or they draw from an empty library on their next turn.
It's definitely worth playing if there's a lot of Ad Nauseam at your store, since their only way to beat it is Duress or Lab Maniac (and you can beat Maniac with Lightning Bolt, which is why they side out of it in games 2 and 3).
I have been struggling against decks that play collective brutality. is there any good way to play through the card or are we just hoping the meta game stays varied enough so that people cannot play the card in large numbers? it seems like atarka's command is really good to battle against collective brutality. since you can cast it in response and deal damage and save your dude. or you could play another land and another burn spell and force them to take what you want. am I just wrong? thoughts?
I'm not sure if I dislike playing against brutality or tks more as a burn player I'm all ears if someone has a good answer to brutality. I do like command though.
I have been struggling against decks that play collective brutality. is there any good way to play through the card or are we just hoping the meta game stays varied enough so that people cannot play the card in large numbers? it seems like atarka's command is really good to battle against collective brutality. since you can cast it in response and deal damage and save your dude. or you could play another land and another burn spell and force them to take what you want. am I just wrong? thoughts?
I'm not sure if I dislike playing against brutality or tks more as a burn player I'm all ears if someone has a good answer to brutality. I do like command though.
one possibility is that we could ruined halo the collective brutality. the problem with this discussion is that it seems like no deck is actually running enough of the card to really require action. the card really has a short shelf life when it comes to the amount of value you can get off the card. if you don't hit the card on turn two I feel like the card loses so much impact that it isn't really worth playing. at that point, you probably have better things to do. so on one hand, you want to play multiple brutalities. but on the other hand, they lose so much value that you never really want to draw it late game. I seems like this is the very basic thing that a lot of pros are missing about the card when it comes to playing it against burn
I've been playing burn a long time, and my teamate has been playing it even longer than me. The bottom line is that brutality is a beating against us. Maindecking commands is just correct in general, the card is extremely powerful and enables more T3 wins. But if you're relying on it to save you from an on-time brutality I think you're going to be a very sad panda. You have to jam your gameplan ... the more lightning bolts the better.
On the topic of sideboarding things like angel's grace ... I agree with folks saying boarding the white / black leylines is just bad. You really need as many cards as possible that further your gameplan on top of whatever utility they provide. Cards that counter other strategies while still dealing damage are superb (revelry / deflecting palm) as well as cards that cantrip (relic, hallowed moonlight). Things like leylines just water down your deck to the point where you need to draw bolt to win and you get a leyline.
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Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
Doesn't it just make sense to play relic? Burn wants back that card while disrupting the GY, you guys can't afford to have less burn in hand, just my opinion
I have been struggling against decks that play collective brutality. is there any good way to play through the card or are we just hoping the meta game stays varied enough so that people cannot play the card in large numbers? it seems like atarka's command is really good to battle against collective brutality. since you can cast it in response and deal damage and save your dude. or you could play another land and another burn spell and force them to take what you want. am I just wrong? thoughts?
I'm not sure if I dislike playing against brutality or tks more as a burn player I'm all ears if someone has a good answer to brutality. I do like command though.
I really hate that Thought-Knot Seer doesn't give the card back, you often just draw another land...
I've retooled the manabase a bit because there are now two people in my area running lists similar to Todd Steven's GW Company list (that runs 4 Ghost Quarter, Renegade Rallier, Crucible of Worlds and Azusa, Lost but Seeking main deck. 10 Fetches, 4 shocks, 3 basics, and 3 fastlands seems like a more stable manabase.
I'm not terrified of Collective Brutality. It's a beating at times, but some of the decks that feature it are too slow to turn the corner on you while you draw out of it. I've been playtesting a couple of decks against Burn, and I've gotten beat through a CollBrut on all 3 modes. It smashes weak Burn hands, but strong ones can overcome it.
I'm not terrified of Collective Brutality. It's a beating at times, but some of the decks that feature it are too slow to turn the corner on you while you draw out of it. I've been playtesting a couple of decks against Burn, and I've gotten beat through a CollBrut on all 3 modes. It smashes weak Burn hands, but strong ones can overcome it.
I agree that it's beatable. It's actually crippling for the CB player if they play all 3 modes, you Skullcrack/AC, and then show them a hand without instants/sorceries because you already dumped them. So what if your Guide dies, they burned 3 cards to do it, though you may be facing a Tasigur soon.
With the rise of Collective Brutality, could we possibly mitigate having our hands shredding with the addition of a second Grim Lavamancer? It turns our misfortune into shocks, and being a creature, it dodges Collective's discard mode, so we can hold it back and let them waste removal on Guide, or Eidolon first.
There is also the possibility of going towards a Red Deck wins kind of style with the inclusion of Spark Elemental and [card]Hellspark Elemental[card], but I don't like that they get chumped for days in most matchups after turn 3/4.
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They call me Hank Hill because I bring the pro-pain.
Collective Brutality is a legitimate reason to play Boros+g over Naya. It's a lot harder to turn the corner on us through discard when we have a playset of Inspiring Vantage and a playset of Lightning Helix maindeck, not to mention at least somewhat consistently shocking ourselves to fourteen.
This article comes right after burn was the most represented deck in day 2 and got 2 deck in the top 8, including the 2nd place.
Sounds like a troll to get views :/
But I'm kind of grateful... that kind of article coming from a pro will probably convince a few players to skip on the burn hate for the next big event
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I'm not aware of any data that supports it. I think it's more of the same clickbait we've seen recently claiming Burn is dead.
Burn is something like 6% of the meta (if you correctly add Boros and Naya) according to mtggoldfish, which puts it on par with 4 other top decks that are at 6%. Modern Nexus still has it in T1 based on their meta+performance determination. It's just incorrect to claim it's not T1 anymore when it very obviously is.
A couple of things about Burn right now.
Collective Brutality is really good at locking Burn out of a game in Death Shadow Jund specifically, because that deck is big, fast, and aggressive even after escalating a CB twice. I have beaten it repeatedly when GB Tron or Grixis have played it against me. It's not an auto-shutdown Burn card the way some players seem to believe/say that it is.
People can hate Burn out of the format, but Magic players are resistant to devoting many sideboard cards to this. The mantra that life gain is not a winning strategy in Magic is largely true, but it causes players to discount the value of playing life gain when it's stapled to good cards like Kitchen Finks and Blessed Alliance. Also, the exact same things being said about Burn can also be said of Affinity. The format can hate out artifacts, but it doesn't do that all the time. These decks just keep posting results, annoy opponents who don't build their decks to beat aggressive decks that care about life totals, and hang around in the top tier of the metagame after many people pronounce them dead repeatedly.
Doesn't Ad Nauseum run 4 Pact of Negation? I mean, maybe you Angel's Grace after they commit their mana into going for it, but they're still like 50%+ to have Pact in-hand by then.
Re: Collective Brutality
He's the second pro that's professed Burn's unplayability in the current metagame for a reason. He's not wrong considering how good Collective Brutality is against us. We just have to change the configuration of our decks, IMO. Atarka's Command should be in the mainboard so you can counter at least one of the modes, independent of the creature with which you've led. Turning off the removal mode is a quick way to stay in the game. I don't think the deck is unplayable a priori, but if you expect half or more of your opponents to pack Collective Brutality, you're either stubborn or stupid to stick with a Boros list.
tl;dr: I love burn; I play burn; I don't think the deck is unplayable unless you routinely face decks with Collective Brutality, in which case it is.
Angel's Grace has Split Second, so it can't be countered unless there's a triggered ability that counters it (something like Counterbalance) or they unmorph something that counters a spell when it's turned face up and they don't play any of those. Cast it after they charge up their Lightning Storm and there's nothing they can do. They'll die to you killing them outright because Grace left them at 1 and you have Bolts or you Poison kill them or they deck themselves on their draw step, unless they have a way to deal 1 damage before any of that happens.
I fail to RTFC all the time. No worries.
It depends, but there's a a couple of ways they'll just die on their own. If they used Grace, they'll be at negative life since Ad Naus causes life loss not damage so Grace doesn't set them to 1 and they die on your upkeep, though they could target themselves with Lightning Storm and leave them at 1. If they had Phyrexian Unlife, they'll be at a huge negative life but won't die unless you get them to 10 poison, blow up Unlife, or they draw from an empty library on their next turn.
It's definitely worth playing if there's a lot of Ad Nauseam at your store, since their only way to beat it is Duress or Lab Maniac (and you can beat Maniac with Lightning Bolt, which is why they side out of it in games 2 and 3).
Protecting against 2/3 of modes on brutality; and all other discard spells
And it's also good against valakut & ad nauseaum & mirror
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
You're right, but I can't help but feel that the apocalypse is nigh when Burn starts playing Leyline of Sanctity.
I feel like Leyline of the Void only wants to go in certain decks, and burn isn't 1 of them.
Burn is best suited for Grafdigger's cage or Relic IMO. RIP is nice, but 2 mana is awkward for a deck that often keeps 1 landers.
Leyline of the void is extra terrible if you're not running black.
Seems doable, even if we are set back 4 turns by discard & lifegain
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I'm not sure if I dislike playing against brutality or tks more as a burn player I'm all ears if someone has a good answer to brutality. I do like command though.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
one possibility is that we could ruined halo the collective brutality. the problem with this discussion is that it seems like no deck is actually running enough of the card to really require action. the card really has a short shelf life when it comes to the amount of value you can get off the card. if you don't hit the card on turn two I feel like the card loses so much impact that it isn't really worth playing. at that point, you probably have better things to do. so on one hand, you want to play multiple brutalities. but on the other hand, they lose so much value that you never really want to draw it late game. I seems like this is the very basic thing that a lot of pros are missing about the card when it comes to playing it against burn
On the topic of sideboarding things like angel's grace ... I agree with folks saying boarding the white / black leylines is just bad. You really need as many cards as possible that further your gameplan on top of whatever utility they provide. Cards that counter other strategies while still dealing damage are superb (revelry / deflecting palm) as well as cards that cantrip (relic, hallowed moonlight). Things like leylines just water down your deck to the point where you need to draw bolt to win and you get a leyline.
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List
I really hate that Thought-Knot Seer doesn't give the card back, you often just draw another land...
But back on topic, Atarka's Command as anti-Collective Brutality Tech is certainly interesting. I think I'm going to try 3 Skullcrack main, 2 Atarka's Command side for post-board games.
New build going into the weekend:
Creatures 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Grim Lavamancer
Spells 27
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Shard Volley
4 Boros Charm
3 Searing Blaze
4 Lightning Helix
3 Skullcrack
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Inspiring Vantage
3 Mountain
3 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Atarka's Command
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Kor Firewalker
I've retooled the manabase a bit because there are now two people in my area running lists similar to Todd Steven's GW Company list (that runs 4 Ghost Quarter, Renegade Rallier, Crucible of Worlds and Azusa, Lost but Seeking main deck. 10 Fetches, 4 shocks, 3 basics, and 3 fastlands seems like a more stable manabase.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I agree that it's beatable. It's actually crippling for the CB player if they play all 3 modes, you Skullcrack/AC, and then show them a hand without instants/sorceries because you already dumped them. So what if your Guide dies, they burned 3 cards to do it, though you may be facing a Tasigur soon.
There is also the possibility of going towards a Red Deck wins kind of style with the inclusion of Spark Elemental and [card]Hellspark Elemental[card], but I don't like that they get chumped for days in most matchups after turn 3/4.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens