That's actually literally the argument against Clifftop Retreat and its ilk, any other single land in that hand and you could most likely keep it, unless you're holding the 1 land with only 2-CMC cards. I've tried the card myself and now agree that while it's viable, it *is* making your deck worse than it would be if you played a shock or fetch in its stead. Now that I have 12 fetches and a playset of Searing Blaze in my build, I am experiencing much more consistency and I'm winning more of my matches.
Clifftop Retreat is a workable budget option, but for Burn's purposes, I feel that Inspiring Vantage and Copperline Gorge are better suited.
You are misunderstanding my point. My point is that I am not keeping a 1-land hand in almost any situation (at least with 7 cards, a 6 card hand with a scry and on the draw is very different) so if we then know my hand has 2+ lands in it, the Clifftop Retreat acts like a Plateau as every other land in the deck will turn it on.
I understand your point exactly: you don't keep 1 land hands anyway so playing a land that makes 1 hand lands unkeepable isn't a problem for you. That's why I am explaining why your point is not a valid one. Most if not all experienced Burn players I've found consider 1 land hands to be keepable as long as you have a reasonable number of 1 CMC spells in that hand (and yes, that's with a 7 card hand). If you're arbitrarily deciding to never keep a 1 land hand anyways, you're skewing the results. An extreme example would be a discussion on how good a card is on the play vs on the draw, with one of the parties in the discussion stating "it doesn't matter to me that the card is good on the play, I always give my opponent the play so I'm always on the draw". You're not playing your deck to its full potential because of an arbitrary self-imposed restriction and it's making you misevaluate the card.
I know where you're coming from, when I first took up the deck and didn't have all the fetches yet I felt exactly the same way, that 1 land hands were unkeepable most of the time. I've done the research and the testing and spoken to people with far more experience with the deck than I have and they convinced me that 1 hand lands were fine to keep, with exceptions. Playing Clifftop Retreat increases the number of hands that you *have* to mulligan because you cannot win with them. Mulliganing into a card fewer has a strong impact on a deck that's built around counting to 20 as soon as possible: you'll need an extra card which means you'll probably need at least an extra draw, which in turn means that you're going to be at least one turn slower than you could have been. This gives your opponent more time to stabilise or execute their game plan so it *will* make you lose more games.
Agreed. Many 1-landers are eminently keepable, especially with Nacatl on board. Mulligans are bad for this deck, and should generally be avoided unless the hand in question just isn't going to get you anwhere. Inspiring Vantage is superior to Clifftop Retreat when looked through this lens, and thus should be considered a better choice. Heck, if even Jeskai Nahiri players are swapping their Sulfur Falls for Spirebluff Canals, why shouldn't you do the same?
Sorry if this has been brought up before (probably has) but never been to this thread and asking this for a friend -
What consensus did people come to with Bedlam Reveler in burn? Specifically naya (with nacatl).
Thanks in advance
For the most part by the time you have enough instants/sorceries in the graveyard to make casting Reveler possible your better option is to just cast a burn spell instead for lethal.
Sorry if this has been brought up before (probably has) but never been to this thread and asking this for a friend -
What consensus did people come to with Bedlam Reveler in burn? Specifically naya (with nacatl).
Thanks in advance
For the most part by the time you have enough instants/sorceries in the graveyard to make casting Reveler possible your better option is to just cast a burn spell instead for lethal.
I don't think that's the right argument against Bedlam Reveler being it sees more play right now in Legacy which is a much faster format. What seems to be holding it back in Modern is the instant/sorcery concentration and casting cost of those to a degree (Legacy is full of 1cc or free like Fireblast) so you can use them immediately after drawing. Until we get more 1cc/free viable burn spells and tone down the creatures very slightly, Reveler isn't going to cut it.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
In which matches do we want to take out Grim Lavamancer? I'm trying to set up my sideboard and current have one Rest in Peace and one Grafdigger's Cage but I am starting to think two cages might be better. Obviously they are stronger against certain decks, but I'm thinking that shutting off my own Lavamancer might be determining factor against RIP.
I know the Ensnaring Bridges are a bit unorthodox but I find the only games I'm losing are Lifegain effects when I do not have one of my eight cards for it and big creature decks I cannot punch through quickly enough like Tarmogoyfs and turn two Thought-Knot Seers which then turn Goblin Guide into a one turn chump-blocker, so the Bridges are supposed to be there to help with that. Also thought more about it and reconsidered my position on Clifftop Retreat.
Took a pretty standard Naya list (without Nacatl) to a GPT this past weekend.
Lost to Infect rd1 - he turn 3d me both times, I only drew "target player" stuff.
Won vs a Bye - close came, but my opponent scooped.
Won against Ponza - he had some good land destruction but kept drawing ramp.
Won against Jeskai Nahiri - turns out Boros Charm is pretty good against Nahiri.
ID against Bantdrazi for Top8 - played for fun and I utterly stomped him.
Won against Bantdrazi (same guy) - lost g1 because I misplayed (forgot to Skullcrack at EoT then untap for lethal), barely won g2 because I was on tilt from G1, won G3 with him having lethal on board.
Lost against Affinity - G1 he had double Cranials and I had my target player burn. G2 I killed all his dudes but he top decked a Champion to throw Cranial on to win.
Not too bad after not playing Burn for about a year. I was running 12 shocks, 3 Mountains, 1 Stomping Ground, 1 Sacred Foundry, 1 Copperline, 1 Inspiring Vantage. Small sample set, but I really like that mana base.
Monday Night Modern Recap with Naya Burn (No Nacatls)
Round 1 vs. Black White Blue Control w/ Dragons? (Won 2-1)
Game one on the play had a gas hand with Swiftspears and burn spells that won in 5 turns.
Game two got him down to 1 life but couldn't seal the win
Game three he mulled to 5, I played a bit more controlly turns 4-5 and eventually got through the counterspells to get the finishing blow
Round 2 vs. Infect (Won 2-0)
Game one on the draw opponent kept a suspect hand. I bolted his Hierarch t1 and he didn't get another creature out until it was too late. I had creatures and burn spells to apply the pressure and have him use his pump spells to save his creatures on my turn.
Game two won with a sidedboarded in Deflecting Palm to prevent the turn four lethal infect kill. Had another gas hand and won after the Deflecting Palm play.
Round 3 vs. Mono Red Burn (Lost 1-2)
He won the dice roll so you can imagine how games 1, 2, and 3 went. Major factor here is me taking damage off of my mana base and him not taking any damage. Maybe I should have been aggressive with my mulligans to find my Helixes or the Kor Firewalkers I sided in.
Round 4 vs. Infect (Won 2-0)
Game one on the draw. He kept a greedy hand. I bolted the Noble again turn 1 and he didn't play any creatures until it was too late.
Game two was more of a grindy matchup. I had a Deflecting Palm in my hand that I was sitting on. He assumed that I had it and was trying to play around it but I had burned him down to 2 life. He went all in, I played the palm and won the game.
The top 5 players all had 3-1 records and I ended up taking 3rd. I was disappointed with the mono red burn outcome because I was going to play the same infect player round 4 regardless but I figured that whoever won the dice roll would probably end up winning the match. Felt really good to stick it to Infect in two separate matchups with the Deflecting Palm.
With my store credit I ended up getting the set of Windswepth Heaths I wanted so I can run the following mana base:
11 Fetches
3 Mountains
2 Sacred Foundries
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Copperline Gorge
Monday Night Modern Recap with Naya Burn (No Nacatls)
Round 1 vs. Black White Blue Control w/ Dragons? (Won 2-1)
Game one on the play had a gas hand with Swiftspears and burn spells that won in 5 turns.
Game two got him down to 1 life but couldn't seal the win
Game three he mulled to 5, I played a bit more controlly turns 4-5 and eventually got through the counterspells to get the finishing blow
Round 2 vs. Infect (Won 2-0)
Game one on the draw opponent kept a suspect hand. I bolted his Hierarch t1 and he didn't get another creature out until it was too late. I had creatures and burn spells to apply the pressure and have him use his pump spells to save his creatures on my turn.
Game two won with a sidedboarded in Deflecting Palm to prevent the turn four lethal infect kill. Had another gas hand and won after the Deflecting Palm play.
Round 3 vs. Mono Red Burn (Lost 1-2)
He won the dice roll so you can imagine how games 1, 2, and 3 went. Major factor here is me taking damage off of my mana base and him not taking any damage. Maybe I should have been aggressive with my mulligans to find my Helixes or the Kor Firewalkers I sided in.
Round 4 vs. Infect (Won 2-0)
Game one on the draw. He kept a greedy hand. I bolted the Noble again turn 1 and he didn't play any creatures until it was too late.
Game two was more of a grindy matchup. I had a Deflecting Palm in my hand that I was sitting on. He assumed that I had it and was trying to play around it but I had burned him down to 2 life. He went all in, I played the palm and won the game.
The top 5 players all had 3-1 records and I ended up taking 3rd. I was disappointed with the mono red burn outcome because I was going to play the same infect player round 4 regardless but I figured that whoever won the dice roll would probably end up winning the match. Felt really good to stick it to Infect in two separate matchups with the Deflecting Palm.
With my store credit I ended up getting the set of Windswepth Heaths I wanted so I can run the following mana base:
11 Fetches
3 Mountains
2 Sacred Foundries
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Copperline Gorge
Congrats, I'm interested in how things went with just 2 foundries and a vantage, I'm considering it myself. Given how agressive the meta is at the moment, do people agree with me going to just 3-4 shocks then running fastlands seems preferable?
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
Not sure why everyone is so high on inspiring vantage. If you are not playing wild nacatl then MAYBE I can see it, but I also think it's crazy to not play Nacatl...the card is great. The argument for fast lands is that you can cast things on turn 1, but there isn't a single white card in the deck that you want to cast on turn 1. Copperline gorge is a necessary evil if you play Nacatl because it's just so good on turn 1. Not being able to fetch them seems like a pretty big downside also. So is it really worth it to have a land you can't fetch, that will come into play tapped any time after land 3, and that doesn't help you cast anything turn 1...all to save out on 2 damage sometimes? Doesn't seem like it to me.
As for lightning helix, I love the card, but I think a lot of the fast match-ups are already fairly favorable/even, so I don't know if I would go to 4 in the SB.
If you're playing Nacatl Copperline Gorge is worse than a shockland - sure, it lets you play a 1/1 on T1, but it doesn't grow Nacatl at all.
Not taking the fetch/shock damage to have access to W was huge at my PPTQ. I definitely won against Bantdrazi because of it.
If you're playing Nacatl Copperline Gorge is worse than a shockland - sure, it lets you play a 1/1 on T1, but it doesn't grow Nacatl at all.
Not taking the fetch/shock damage to have access to W was huge at my PPTQ. I definitely won against Bantdrazi because of it.
Overall copperline gorge may be worse, but it's certainly not because it doesn't grow Nacatl. If you drop Nacatl turn 1, you are hoping to fetch for foundry on T2, growing your guy to a 3/3. Having Nacatl be a 2/2 on turn 1 is pointless 99% of the time, especially if you have to take 2-3 damage to make him 2/2. Gorge is worse than a shock in 2 specific ways (not fetchable, coming in tapped later), BUT those arguments are somewhat offset due to being able to play green on turn 1. There is never a time when you need white on turn 1, so I think it's not worth it.
As for your win against Bantdrazi, I wasn't saying that the 2 dmg will never be worthwhile. Obviously there will be times when it changes a game's outcome. My point was that I think those cases where it helps you are going to be fewer than the times when it hurts you. I can name quite a few games where I've needed white to win, and I top decked a fetch or foundry...boom, win. I think those instances will be more frequent than the 2 life winning or losing you a game.
If you're playing Nacatl Copperline Gorge is worse than a shockland - sure, it lets you play a 1/1 on T1, but it doesn't grow Nacatl at all.
Not taking the fetch/shock damage to have access to W was huge at my PPTQ. I definitely won against Bantdrazi because of it.
Overall copperline gorge may be worse, but it's certainly not because it doesn't grow Nacatl. If you drop Nacatl turn 1, you are hoping to fetch for foundry on T2, growing your guy to a 3/3. Having Nacatl be a 2/2 on turn 1 is pointless 99% of the time, especially if you have to take 2-3 damage to make him 2/2. Gorge is worse than a shock in 2 specific ways (not fetchable, coming in tapped later), BUT those arguments are somewhat offset due to being able to play green on turn 1. There is never a time when you need white on turn 1, so I think it's not worth it.
That's probably fair.
As for your win against Bantdrazi, I wasn't saying that the 2 dmg will never be worthwhile. Obviously there will be times when it changes a game's outcome. My point was that I think those cases where it helps you are going to be fewer than the times when it hurts you. I can name quite a few games where I've needed white to win, and I top decked a fetch or foundry...boom, win. I think those instances will be more frequent than the 2 life winning or losing you a game.
I also run fetches and a foundry - my landbase was 12 fetches, a foundry, a stomping ground, 3 mountains, 1 of each fast land.
There were some practice games that I won specifically because of my fast lands. There was 1 practice game I lost because I needed a color and top decked the fast land of that color as my 4th land. Sure, I'm incredibly weak to Spreading Seas or land destruction, but those are fringe enough I didn't worry about it.
Hello, I've been reading this thread for the past several weeks. I've just returned to playing Magic a few months ago and wanted a competitive deck so I bought the typical Nacatl Burn list with Windswept Heaths instead of Arid Mesas.
Match 1: Kiki-Evo (2-1)
- G1: Was able to burn him down before he was able to cast a single eldritch evolution
- G2: I was able to burn him down to 2 but he brought it back up to 10 and couldn't find my last burn spell. He was able to assemble the kiki-angel combo and won.
- G3: Turn 2 Grafdigger's Cage and sealed the game with 2 Eidolon in play.
Match 2: UB Mill (2-0)
- G1: I kept a hand with 2 creatures and he was just milling my deck which didn't bother me. He couldn't keep up with the pressure.
- G2: He brought in some life gain artifacts when milling creatures (forgot the name of the card), but Atarka's Command saved me from them.
Match 3: Abzan Coco (2-1)
- G1: I mulled to 6 and kept a 1 land hand with 3 1cmc burn spells. The others were Boros Charm that I couldn't cast and eventually drew the other Charms. I scooped to infinite life combo. Probably should have mulled to 5.
- G2: I boarded in Satyr Firedancer to try it out but the immediate problem I had with him was that he was at least a 3 cmc spell and sufficient burn spells in hand to be effective. I risked him on turn 2 only to be pathed. I probably should have been patient with playing with him. Fortunately, I still won the game.
- G3: I got him down to 2 life and he had lethal on board. It was topdeck mode and I got lucky with a burn spell.
Match 4: Mono U Eldrazi (2-0)
- G1: A few Nacatls in play with Atarka's Command allowed me to deal a lot of damage quickly before he was able to bring out big creatures
- G2: He boarded in Dragon's Claw which I wasn't prepared for. If it was the typical Mono U Tron, I would have boarded in Revelry but I didn't. I was able to swing with Nacatls and Atarka pump but I was on topdeck mode for several turns. Lucky enough, I was able to finish the game and he told me he made a mistake of removing all his big stuff since he thought the game would be short.
Match 1: Jund (0-2)
- G1: I brought him down to 5 life but he was able to play a Kalitas. It walled of my creatures and I couldn't push through it.
- G2: He played turn 2 ooze and I immediately killed it. I brought him down to 1 life this time, but scavenging ooze came back from the graveyard. Even with topdeck mode, he gained enough life that it didn't matter. He even sacrificed his own Goyf to Liliana just so he could gain 1 extra life from it.
Match 2: Infect (1-1-1)
- G1: Most of my hand couldn't target the ground. I was able to kill a few of his creatures but it wasn't enough.
- G2: For this FNM, I had volcanic fallout as my sideboard instead of Satyr Firedancer. So I boarded it in and eventually drew it. I also had deflecting palm in my hand and I knew that he would go in for the kill on the next turn so I had 5 mana up to cast both and I also had a Eidolon in play. He had three infect creatures, 1 was inkmoth. When he swung for the attack, he pumped inkmoth with become immense. I baited his other spells by casting Volcanic Fallout to kill the other infect creatures. He then pumped another creature to the point that deflecting palm would be lethal. It ended in a draw. I probably could have played it better by using Volcanic Fallout on my turn, but he had enough cards in hand that I didn't risk it.
- G3: I controlled the board better this time and eventually won with burn spells.
Match 3: Eldrazi and Taxes (1-2)
- G1: He wasn't able to slow me down much so I was able to burn him out
- G2: I got slowed down a lot with Thalia and TKS. His life was out of reach.
- G3: He got Thalia down which i killed eventually, but he got one down again, and a third one after killing the second. He also had leonin arbiter in play which made me decide which to kill first. I could have just went for the face and won that way since the game ended with him having 6 life.
Match 4: Mono U Eldrazi (1-2)
- G1: Same person I fought in last FNM. I raced him hard in this game.
- G2: I brought him down to 4 life and I was in topdeck mode. He was able to stabilize with me drawing lands.
- G3: Similar to G2.
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Modern League 1-2 (10/03)
Match 1: 8 Rack (1-2)
- G1: I was able to burn him before any rack effects mattered.
- G2: He made me discard quite a bit and I was only able to bring him down to 7 life. Therefore, I needed to topdeck 3 burn spells to kill him. It was unlikely to happen and he sealed it with having 3 rack effects in play.
- G3: He was able to play 3 smallpox this game which made it difficult since my creatures were getting taken care of 1 by 1 while discarding my burn spells. I had a boros charm left in my hand and needed a land. I was down to 2 life and I play with windswept heaths. I drew 1 and this is where it costed me the game.
Match 2: 8 Whack (1-2)
- G1: He was on the play and had a really good hand. End of story.
- G2: I had a Kor Firewalker in hand and he had Dragon's Claw. It was a lengthy game with me winning since Kor Firewalker walled his creatures.
- G3: I couldn't find my Kor Firewalker and he had a Dragon's Claw. With it on the play, I was nowhere near winning.
Match 1: Turbo Fog (2-0)
- G1 and G2: Burn feels like it decimates this deck. I just put up enough mana for boros charm against Supreme Veridict and board in Revelry for the Leylines.
Match 2: Titanshift (2-0)
- G1: It was a race. I had a guide and eidolon in play and he used Anger of the Gods. I was able to save them with Boros Charm and swing with Atarka on the backswing.
- G2: I boarded in badly against this deck. I don't know why I boarded in Kor Firewalker. Regardless, I was able to play one along with Swiftspear and raced with them. The lifegain from Kor Firewalker didn't even matter since I had to shock myself a lot for it.
Match 3: Modern Knights (2-0)
- G1: For his first few turns, he only played equipment and was land-screwed. Making it easy for my creatures to pressure him a lot.
- G2: He played a few first strike knights this time. I brought in Revelry to destroy any equipment he plays. I had 4 creatures in play and he had 2. He attacked with the double strike knight and brought me down to 3. He died on the backswing with Atarka's.
Match 4: Amulet Scout (0-0-3)
- Intentionally draw to split prizes. Which was good because I knew that his deck is a bad matchup for burn.
Match 1: Naya Burn Mirror (1-2)
- G1: He was on the play which is bad news for me. I only realized how bad it was for me when I tried mirroring his plays. When I tried to switch gears, it was too late and I couldn't keep up.
- G2: Being on the play felt really advantageous. I was able to dish out burn spells faster than him and won the race.
- G3: He was able to bring out 2 Kor Firewalkers and I realized my mistake. I forgot to board in Path to Exile when I should have expected the Kor Firewalkers. None of it came up in game 2 so it slipped my mind. Needless to say, I lost.
Match 2: Jund (1-2)
- G1: Brought him down to 4 life with no gas left. He played huntmaster of the fell and sped up the clock. I topdecked a land and lost the game.
- G2: Kept a 1 lander with 2 swiftspear. It didn't look threatening at first but when a second land came, I sealed the game fast with searing blaze and boros charm.
- G3: I brought him down to 4 life and ran out of gas. I topdecked lands for 2 turns. He wiped my side of the board and got in with Goyf and Raging Ravine to seal the game.
Match 3: Monster Company (2-1)
- G1: I thought at first he was playing infect. Only to realize I was wrong when he played Emissary into Myr Superion on turn 2. Luckily I had 2 Nacatls to block his Superion. Otherwise, it would trample over me easily.
- G2: He was able to combo off into Collected Company bringing in big creatures.
- G3: I had 2 Nacatls and a Goblin Guide in hand which was a good sign. I was able to swing with Atarka's Command before he could do anything.
Match 4: Bant Eldrazi (1-2)
- G1: I was able to bring him down to 1 while I was at 12. I topdecked bricks for 3 turns.
- G2: I kept enough pressure on him with my creatures and eventually won by pushing through his Eldrazi with Atarka's and topdecking burn spells.
- G3: Brought him down to 5 but I was surprised he played a Thragtusk. I should have expected it but I couldn't do anything either way because he exiled my Atarka's (which could have won me the game) with TKS.
Match 5: **Bye**
- I just wanted to have fun despite not making top 8, but they gave me a bye instead
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Notes:
- Nacatl with other creatures + Atarka's Command is game breaking. Furthermore, trading Wild Nacatl with TKS felt really good. They kept choosing to block the Nacatl even with Swiftspears in play and mana up.
- Nacatl isn't always a bad topdeck. In games where I topdecked a Nacatl, it would be used to buy another turn. Somewhat similar case when topdecking Eidolon.
- There were a lot of games where I had to mull to 6, but I felt it was fine due to scrying. Fortunately, I never had to mull to 5 yet.
- Knowing when to mull is critical. Luckily, due to reading up on how to play Naya Burn, I read that any 4 landers, I mull. The scrying really made a 6 hand better than the 7 hand. Any 1 landers, I keep if I have enough 1 cmc spells I could cast with that land.
- As you can see, the meta in my LGS is pretty diverse. There were dredge and control players around too.
- Playing with Windswept Heath isn't that bad at all. Oftentimes, drawing Windswept Heaths would simply mean I would use it to fetch a shockland and save the red fetch for mountains. Later in the game, shocklands fetched with Windswept Heath would be played tapped and it was fine. The number of games where windswept heath would cost you the game is relatively small.
- I also tried using Inspiring Vantage. It felt horrible. With Copperline Gorge and Inspiring Vantage in hand, my Nacatls would still be a 1/1.
- A lot of the games really turned into top deck mode. It is exciting and funny at the same time.
- Playing with Eidolon of the Great Revel felt like I only had to look at my opponent's life total without that much regards to mine.
- I played Naya Burn only for about a month. So it is expected that there will be some misplays. I just wanted to share my experience with the deck for others to see (especially new players) and get an idea on how it would play on both sides of the spectrum compared to posts only containing successful days.
- I don't know how helpful posting my experience with the deck would be for the thread, but if it is helpful, I would be glad to keep doing so. If not, I would be fine with not posting it.
but I also think it's crazy to not play Nacatl...the card is great.
This depends entirely on what you're expecting other decks to be. At my local shops you can't play Nacatl because everyone is playing Jund, Grixis or Jeskai and it just dies before you can ever untap or it gets bricked by a 3/4 Goyf on turn 2. I tried it for about a month before determining that it's really bad where I am and that Helixes and a Skullcrack were better.
Hey, I've been on 8whack for the last five months, playing Modo, and have finally decided to buy into a tier 1 deck. I was wondering what to expect out of burn. How stable has is been in the meta? Easy to play around hate cards?
I've played Naya Burn in Cockatrice and the deck makes sense to me. Is it the kind of deck like Affinity where you need to have a good amount of experience with it to play around the Hate?
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In my opinion, Naya Burn is a strong deck that has game against almost anything. The only hate cards that really stop it are double Chalice of the Void (one on 1cmc and one on 2cmc) and Leyline of Sanctity and even when decks play those cards you still have a chance to win. The only matchups that feel impossible to me are Ad Nauseam and Soul Sisters, since their mainboard game plan directly counters Burn's, but even against those decks you can still pick up some wins.
Burn hasn't always been in favour but I think it's a very stable deck that may not always be the best choice but it's almost never a terrible choice.
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I understand your point exactly: you don't keep 1 land hands anyway so playing a land that makes 1 hand lands unkeepable isn't a problem for you. That's why I am explaining why your point is not a valid one. Most if not all experienced Burn players I've found consider 1 land hands to be keepable as long as you have a reasonable number of 1 CMC spells in that hand (and yes, that's with a 7 card hand). If you're arbitrarily deciding to never keep a 1 land hand anyways, you're skewing the results. An extreme example would be a discussion on how good a card is on the play vs on the draw, with one of the parties in the discussion stating "it doesn't matter to me that the card is good on the play, I always give my opponent the play so I'm always on the draw". You're not playing your deck to its full potential because of an arbitrary self-imposed restriction and it's making you misevaluate the card.
I know where you're coming from, when I first took up the deck and didn't have all the fetches yet I felt exactly the same way, that 1 land hands were unkeepable most of the time. I've done the research and the testing and spoken to people with far more experience with the deck than I have and they convinced me that 1 hand lands were fine to keep, with exceptions. Playing Clifftop Retreat increases the number of hands that you *have* to mulligan because you cannot win with them. Mulliganing into a card fewer has a strong impact on a deck that's built around counting to 20 as soon as possible: you'll need an extra card which means you'll probably need at least an extra draw, which in turn means that you're going to be at least one turn slower than you could have been. This gives your opponent more time to stabilise or execute their game plan so it *will* make you lose more games.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Im trying to slowly upgrade my mono-red list atm. and could use some feedback. Going for Boros first and then gonna transition into Naya-Burn.
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Grim Lavamancer
Instant: (19)
4x Boros Charm
4x Skullcrack
3x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Searing Blaze
1x Shard Volley
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
Land: (20)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Battlefield Forge
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Inspiring Vantage
4x Mountain
Is this somewhat playable especially regarding the manabase?
For the most part by the time you have enough instants/sorceries in the graveyard to make casting Reveler possible your better option is to just cast a burn spell instead for lethal.
10 Red Fetches
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain
2 Inspiring Vantage
1 Copperline Gorge
20th land: Mountain/Gorge/Vantage
I don't think that's the right argument against Bedlam Reveler being it sees more play right now in Legacy which is a much faster format. What seems to be holding it back in Modern is the instant/sorcery concentration and casting cost of those to a degree (Legacy is full of 1cc or free like Fireblast) so you can use them immediately after drawing. Until we get more 1cc/free viable burn spells and tone down the creatures very slightly, Reveler isn't going to cut it.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
Spells: (27)
4 Boros Charm
4 Atarka's Command
4 Skullcrack
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Lava Spike
3 Rift Bolt
11 Fetches
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Mountain
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Path to Exile
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Deflecting Palm
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
I know the Ensnaring Bridges are a bit unorthodox but I find the only games I'm losing are Lifegain effects when I do not have one of my eight cards for it and big creature decks I cannot punch through quickly enough like Tarmogoyfs and turn two Thought-Knot Seers which then turn Goblin Guide into a one turn chump-blocker, so the Bridges are supposed to be there to help with that. Also thought more about it and reconsidered my position on Clifftop Retreat.
Lost to Infect rd1 - he turn 3d me both times, I only drew "target player" stuff.
Won vs a Bye - close came, but my opponent scooped.
Won against Ponza - he had some good land destruction but kept drawing ramp.
Won against Jeskai Nahiri - turns out Boros Charm is pretty good against Nahiri.
ID against Bantdrazi for Top8 - played for fun and I utterly stomped him.
Won against Bantdrazi (same guy) - lost g1 because I misplayed (forgot to Skullcrack at EoT then untap for lethal), barely won g2 because I was on tilt from G1, won G3 with him having lethal on board.
Lost against Affinity - G1 he had double Cranials and I had my target player burn. G2 I killed all his dudes but he top decked a Champion to throw Cranial on to win.
Not too bad after not playing Burn for about a year. I was running 12 shocks, 3 Mountains, 1 Stomping Ground, 1 Sacred Foundry, 1 Copperline, 1 Inspiring Vantage. Small sample set, but I really like that mana base.
Round 1 vs. Black White Blue Control w/ Dragons? (Won 2-1)
Game one on the play had a gas hand with Swiftspears and burn spells that won in 5 turns.
Game two got him down to 1 life but couldn't seal the win
Game three he mulled to 5, I played a bit more controlly turns 4-5 and eventually got through the counterspells to get the finishing blow
Round 2 vs. Infect (Won 2-0)
Game one on the draw opponent kept a suspect hand. I bolted his Hierarch t1 and he didn't get another creature out until it was too late. I had creatures and burn spells to apply the pressure and have him use his pump spells to save his creatures on my turn.
Game two won with a sidedboarded in Deflecting Palm to prevent the turn four lethal infect kill. Had another gas hand and won after the Deflecting Palm play.
Round 3 vs. Mono Red Burn (Lost 1-2)
He won the dice roll so you can imagine how games 1, 2, and 3 went. Major factor here is me taking damage off of my mana base and him not taking any damage. Maybe I should have been aggressive with my mulligans to find my Helixes or the Kor Firewalkers I sided in.
Round 4 vs. Infect (Won 2-0)
Game one on the draw. He kept a greedy hand. I bolted the Noble again turn 1 and he didn't play any creatures until it was too late.
Game two was more of a grindy matchup. I had a Deflecting Palm in my hand that I was sitting on. He assumed that I had it and was trying to play around it but I had burned him down to 2 life. He went all in, I played the palm and won the game.
The top 5 players all had 3-1 records and I ended up taking 3rd. I was disappointed with the mono red burn outcome because I was going to play the same infect player round 4 regardless but I figured that whoever won the dice roll would probably end up winning the match. Felt really good to stick it to Infect in two separate matchups with the Deflecting Palm.
With my store credit I ended up getting the set of Windswepth Heaths I wanted so I can run the following mana base:
11 Fetches
3 Mountains
2 Sacred Foundries
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Copperline Gorge
Congrats, I'm interested in how things went with just 2 foundries and a vantage, I'm considering it myself. Given how agressive the meta is at the moment, do people agree with me going to just 3-4 shocks then running fastlands seems preferable?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
As for lightning helix, I love the card, but I think a lot of the fast match-ups are already fairly favorable/even, so I don't know if I would go to 4 in the SB.
Not taking the fetch/shock damage to have access to W was huge at my PPTQ. I definitely won against Bantdrazi because of it.
Overall copperline gorge may be worse, but it's certainly not because it doesn't grow Nacatl. If you drop Nacatl turn 1, you are hoping to fetch for foundry on T2, growing your guy to a 3/3. Having Nacatl be a 2/2 on turn 1 is pointless 99% of the time, especially if you have to take 2-3 damage to make him 2/2. Gorge is worse than a shock in 2 specific ways (not fetchable, coming in tapped later), BUT those arguments are somewhat offset due to being able to play green on turn 1. There is never a time when you need white on turn 1, so I think it's not worth it.
As for your win against Bantdrazi, I wasn't saying that the 2 dmg will never be worthwhile. Obviously there will be times when it changes a game's outcome. My point was that I think those cases where it helps you are going to be fewer than the times when it hurts you. I can name quite a few games where I've needed white to win, and I top decked a fetch or foundry...boom, win. I think those instances will be more frequent than the 2 life winning or losing you a game.
That's probably fair.
I also run fetches and a foundry - my landbase was 12 fetches, a foundry, a stomping ground, 3 mountains, 1 of each fast land.
There were some practice games that I won specifically because of my fast lands. There was 1 practice game I lost because I needed a color and top decked the fast land of that color as my 4th land. Sure, I'm incredibly weak to Spreading Seas or land destruction, but those are fringe enough I didn't worry about it.
My sideboard have 2 Path to Exile, 2 Deflecting Palm, 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Destructive Revelry, 0-1 Lightning Helix, 2 Skullcrack, 2 Kor Firewalker and 1-2 flexspots
I want to share my experiences for the past few FNMs with the deck. I had a few FNMs before this but I wasn't able to record it.
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FNM 4-0 (9/23)
Match 1: Kiki-Evo (2-1)
- G1: Was able to burn him down before he was able to cast a single eldritch evolution
- G2: I was able to burn him down to 2 but he brought it back up to 10 and couldn't find my last burn spell. He was able to assemble the kiki-angel combo and won.
- G3: Turn 2 Grafdigger's Cage and sealed the game with 2 Eidolon in play.
Match 2: UB Mill (2-0)
- G1: I kept a hand with 2 creatures and he was just milling my deck which didn't bother me. He couldn't keep up with the pressure.
- G2: He brought in some life gain artifacts when milling creatures (forgot the name of the card), but Atarka's Command saved me from them.
Match 3: Abzan Coco (2-1)
- G1: I mulled to 6 and kept a 1 land hand with 3 1cmc burn spells. The others were Boros Charm that I couldn't cast and eventually drew the other Charms. I scooped to infinite life combo. Probably should have mulled to 5.
- G2: I boarded in Satyr Firedancer to try it out but the immediate problem I had with him was that he was at least a 3 cmc spell and sufficient burn spells in hand to be effective. I risked him on turn 2 only to be pathed. I probably should have been patient with playing with him. Fortunately, I still won the game.
- G3: I got him down to 2 life and he had lethal on board. It was topdeck mode and I got lucky with a burn spell.
Match 4: Mono U Eldrazi (2-0)
- G1: A few Nacatls in play with Atarka's Command allowed me to deal a lot of damage quickly before he was able to bring out big creatures
- G2: He boarded in Dragon's Claw which I wasn't prepared for. If it was the typical Mono U Tron, I would have boarded in Revelry but I didn't. I was able to swing with Nacatls and Atarka pump but I was on topdeck mode for several turns. Lucky enough, I was able to finish the game and he told me he made a mistake of removing all his big stuff since he thought the game would be short.
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FNM 0-3-1 (9/30)
Match 1: Jund (0-2)
- G1: I brought him down to 5 life but he was able to play a Kalitas. It walled of my creatures and I couldn't push through it.
- G2: He played turn 2 ooze and I immediately killed it. I brought him down to 1 life this time, but scavenging ooze came back from the graveyard. Even with topdeck mode, he gained enough life that it didn't matter. He even sacrificed his own Goyf to Liliana just so he could gain 1 extra life from it.
Match 2: Infect (1-1-1)
- G1: Most of my hand couldn't target the ground. I was able to kill a few of his creatures but it wasn't enough.
- G2: For this FNM, I had volcanic fallout as my sideboard instead of Satyr Firedancer. So I boarded it in and eventually drew it. I also had deflecting palm in my hand and I knew that he would go in for the kill on the next turn so I had 5 mana up to cast both and I also had a Eidolon in play. He had three infect creatures, 1 was inkmoth. When he swung for the attack, he pumped inkmoth with become immense. I baited his other spells by casting Volcanic Fallout to kill the other infect creatures. He then pumped another creature to the point that deflecting palm would be lethal. It ended in a draw. I probably could have played it better by using Volcanic Fallout on my turn, but he had enough cards in hand that I didn't risk it.
- G3: I controlled the board better this time and eventually won with burn spells.
Match 3: Eldrazi and Taxes (1-2)
- G1: He wasn't able to slow me down much so I was able to burn him out
- G2: I got slowed down a lot with Thalia and TKS. His life was out of reach.
- G3: He got Thalia down which i killed eventually, but he got one down again, and a third one after killing the second. He also had leonin arbiter in play which made me decide which to kill first. I could have just went for the face and won that way since the game ended with him having 6 life.
Match 4: Mono U Eldrazi (1-2)
- G1: Same person I fought in last FNM. I raced him hard in this game.
- G2: I brought him down to 4 life and I was in topdeck mode. He was able to stabilize with me drawing lands.
- G3: Similar to G2.
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Modern League 1-2 (10/03)
Match 1: 8 Rack (1-2)
- G1: I was able to burn him before any rack effects mattered.
- G2: He made me discard quite a bit and I was only able to bring him down to 7 life. Therefore, I needed to topdeck 3 burn spells to kill him. It was unlikely to happen and he sealed it with having 3 rack effects in play.
- G3: He was able to play 3 smallpox this game which made it difficult since my creatures were getting taken care of 1 by 1 while discarding my burn spells. I had a boros charm left in my hand and needed a land. I was down to 2 life and I play with windswept heaths. I drew 1 and this is where it costed me the game.
Match 2: 8 Whack (1-2)
- G1: He was on the play and had a really good hand. End of story.
- G2: I had a Kor Firewalker in hand and he had Dragon's Claw. It was a lengthy game with me winning since Kor Firewalker walled his creatures.
- G3: I couldn't find my Kor Firewalker and he had a Dragon's Claw. With it on the play, I was nowhere near winning.
Match 3: **Bye**
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FNM 3-1 (10/7)
Match 1: Turbo Fog (2-0)
- G1 and G2: Burn feels like it decimates this deck. I just put up enough mana for boros charm against Supreme Veridict and board in Revelry for the Leylines.
Match 2: Titanshift (2-0)
- G1: It was a race. I had a guide and eidolon in play and he used Anger of the Gods. I was able to save them with Boros Charm and swing with Atarka on the backswing.
- G2: I boarded in badly against this deck. I don't know why I boarded in Kor Firewalker. Regardless, I was able to play one along with Swiftspear and raced with them. The lifegain from Kor Firewalker didn't even matter since I had to shock myself a lot for it.
Match 3: Modern Knights (2-0)
- G1: For his first few turns, he only played equipment and was land-screwed. Making it easy for my creatures to pressure him a lot.
- G2: He played a few first strike knights this time. I brought in Revelry to destroy any equipment he plays. I had 4 creatures in play and he had 2. He attacked with the double strike knight and brought me down to 3. He died on the backswing with Atarka's.
Match 4: Amulet Scout (0-0-3)
- Intentionally draw to split prizes. Which was good because I knew that his deck is a bad matchup for burn.
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PPTQ 2-3
Match 1: Naya Burn Mirror (1-2)
- G1: He was on the play which is bad news for me. I only realized how bad it was for me when I tried mirroring his plays. When I tried to switch gears, it was too late and I couldn't keep up.
- G2: Being on the play felt really advantageous. I was able to dish out burn spells faster than him and won the race.
- G3: He was able to bring out 2 Kor Firewalkers and I realized my mistake. I forgot to board in Path to Exile when I should have expected the Kor Firewalkers. None of it came up in game 2 so it slipped my mind. Needless to say, I lost.
Match 2: Jund (1-2)
- G1: Brought him down to 4 life with no gas left. He played huntmaster of the fell and sped up the clock. I topdecked a land and lost the game.
- G2: Kept a 1 lander with 2 swiftspear. It didn't look threatening at first but when a second land came, I sealed the game fast with searing blaze and boros charm.
- G3: I brought him down to 4 life and ran out of gas. I topdecked lands for 2 turns. He wiped my side of the board and got in with Goyf and Raging Ravine to seal the game.
Match 3: Monster Company (2-1)
- G1: I thought at first he was playing infect. Only to realize I was wrong when he played Emissary into Myr Superion on turn 2. Luckily I had 2 Nacatls to block his Superion. Otherwise, it would trample over me easily.
- G2: He was able to combo off into Collected Company bringing in big creatures.
- G3: I had 2 Nacatls and a Goblin Guide in hand which was a good sign. I was able to swing with Atarka's Command before he could do anything.
Match 4: Bant Eldrazi (1-2)
- G1: I was able to bring him down to 1 while I was at 12. I topdecked bricks for 3 turns.
- G2: I kept enough pressure on him with my creatures and eventually won by pushing through his Eldrazi with Atarka's and topdecking burn spells.
- G3: Brought him down to 5 but I was surprised he played a Thragtusk. I should have expected it but I couldn't do anything either way because he exiled my Atarka's (which could have won me the game) with TKS.
Match 5: **Bye**
- I just wanted to have fun despite not making top 8, but they gave me a bye instead
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Notes:
- Nacatl with other creatures + Atarka's Command is game breaking. Furthermore, trading Wild Nacatl with TKS felt really good. They kept choosing to block the Nacatl even with Swiftspears in play and mana up.
- Nacatl isn't always a bad topdeck. In games where I topdecked a Nacatl, it would be used to buy another turn. Somewhat similar case when topdecking Eidolon.
- There were a lot of games where I had to mull to 6, but I felt it was fine due to scrying. Fortunately, I never had to mull to 5 yet.
- Knowing when to mull is critical. Luckily, due to reading up on how to play Naya Burn, I read that any 4 landers, I mull. The scrying really made a 6 hand better than the 7 hand. Any 1 landers, I keep if I have enough 1 cmc spells I could cast with that land.
- As you can see, the meta in my LGS is pretty diverse. There were dredge and control players around too.
- Playing with Windswept Heath isn't that bad at all. Oftentimes, drawing Windswept Heaths would simply mean I would use it to fetch a shockland and save the red fetch for mountains. Later in the game, shocklands fetched with Windswept Heath would be played tapped and it was fine. The number of games where windswept heath would cost you the game is relatively small.
- I also tried using Inspiring Vantage. It felt horrible. With Copperline Gorge and Inspiring Vantage in hand, my Nacatls would still be a 1/1.
- A lot of the games really turned into top deck mode. It is exciting and funny at the same time.
- Playing with Eidolon of the Great Revel felt like I only had to look at my opponent's life total without that much regards to mine.
- I played Naya Burn only for about a month. So it is expected that there will be some misplays. I just wanted to share my experience with the deck for others to see (especially new players) and get an idea on how it would play on both sides of the spectrum compared to posts only containing successful days.
- I don't know how helpful posting my experience with the deck would be for the thread, but if it is helpful, I would be glad to keep doing so. If not, I would be fine with not posting it.
This depends entirely on what you're expecting other decks to be. At my local shops you can't play Nacatl because everyone is playing Jund, Grixis or Jeskai and it just dies before you can ever untap or it gets bricked by a 3/4 Goyf on turn 2. I tried it for about a month before determining that it's really bad where I am and that Helixes and a Skullcrack were better.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I've played Naya Burn in Cockatrice and the deck makes sense to me. Is it the kind of deck like Affinity where you need to have a good amount of experience with it to play around the Hate?
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Burn hasn't always been in favour but I think it's a very stable deck that may not always be the best choice but it's almost never a terrible choice.