Surgical Extraction fulfills the following requirements:
- reduces your life total
- lets you look at your opponents hand
- fuels delve
- triggers prowess
It doesn't give you back a card but instead is able to reduce potential threats and removal, especially in combination with Thoughtseize.
At first glance, this seems to be a replacement that helps our deck most.
I really don't want to buy into a new deck again.
This is what I think too.
It doesn't give us a card but it can potentially reduce the numbers of cards in our opponent's hand, what 'virtually' is the same thing!
Noxious Revival is interesting also, because it can target our opponent grave, but I don't know what kind of plays we can achieve with this... if it isn't a good option, Postmortem Lunge is a better option!
That's why I like the idea of noxious revival because it addresses the problem of fatal push as you can get back a death's shadow on top of being a versatile tool for the deck (e.g. timewalk opponent, stuck on one land and getting back a fetch,getting back a temur battlerage to help finish the game off, helps with the life loss). I'm going to run 4 to test it tomorrow and report how it does.
If someone has the chance to proxy that or the Jund decklist which is doing really good online with a midrange deck with Fatal Push it woulb be awesome. Let us know
Do you have the link for those Jund lists? I was already interested in going Jund with Death's Shadow, and the Probe banning is the Fatal Push for me going into that direction (Sorry for the awful pun xD)
That's why I like the idea of noxious revival because it addresses the problem of fatal push as you can get back a death's shadow on top of being a versatile tool for the deck (e.g. timewalk opponent, stuck on one land and getting back a fetch,getting back a temur battlerage to help finish the game off, helps with the life loss). I'm going to run 4 to test it tomorrow and report how it does.
If someone has the chance to proxy that or the Jund decklist which is doing really good online with a midrange deck with Fatal Push it woulb be awesome. Let us know
Do you have the link for those Jund lists? I was already interested in going Jund with Death's Shadow, and the Probe banning is the Fatal Push for me going into that direction (Sorry for the awful pun xD)
Noxious revival has a good synergy with Mishra's Bauble. Peek at the top of their library and put something of theirs back on top to buy you an extra turn if needed. I think a pairing of revival and extraction may be the way to go. I really like postmortem lunge though. Here are all the cards that I pulled out that I consider as an alternative
Noxious Revival
Orzhov Char
Groundswell
blossoming defense
Tasigur, the Golden Fang - more for sideboard
Tombstalker - more for sideboard
Gut Shot
Surgical Extraction
Well i'm not ready to dump this deck. We lost an incredible card that did everything we needed, but there are several brews out here that might function without it.
Probe, aside from being an awesome cantrip, was often used to check if the coast was clear for alpha striking or laying threats. I think there are 3 ways to reconstruct from this loss:
1. Replace with more protection
2. Replace with more disruption
3. Replace with more threats
Point 1 is self explanatory: More Apostle's Blessing, Blossoming Defense, even Vines of Vastwood. These cards blank opponent removal (which there will be more of in the near future) while simultaneously preventing tempo loss.
Point 2: Probe was the best digging card we had, and digging is (above all else) used to speed up our game. So our game got a little slower, which is awful for such an aggressive combo deck. So: how do we adjust? Do we find another way to maintain tempo (would love some ideas), or start to edge more toward control (4 Thoughtseize X Surgical, maybe even MB IoK)? I would love to play Gut Shot, but how many targets do we viably have with 1 toughness? Let's also not forget about the baddest removal spell possibly ever printed : Dismember.
Point 3: Or do we dump more threats into the deck in classic Zoo form to try to overwhelm the opponent? Death's Shadow is the only reason to suicide ourselves, but it's damn well worth it. Are there any viable creatures that can do damage to us in a productive way? I would love to replace Probe 1:1 with a creature that also ticks down our life total. I think the caveat here is that Swiftspear is less good with the loss of free prowess triggers.
A more Zoo-centric list could also benefit from an emphasis on Delirium like the Grim Flayer lists. (JW: Any worthwhile 1cmc enchantments out there?)
I'm not sure that Noxious Revival is worth playing. It's too durdley and doesn't actually gain us a card. I can get behind Postmortem Lunge, but it's pretty useless with anything larger than 2cmc (Mandrills, Tombstalker, Gurmag Angler).
I think vault skirge isn't the answer. It is still susceptible to all the new removal etc making the cards in their hand more useful. Some sort of revival or protection to take 2 of the new slots is probably the best route. With the deck moving a bit slower, i'm not sure that every spell has to make life loss a priority. If that were the case remove Probe and put in gutshot to hit yourself for 3 instead of using it against an opponent.
I forgot about Lacerator. Steady life loss, opponent probably doesn't want to waste removal on it, but how many turns do we really want our games to last? 1 per turn isn't serious work.
In which scenarios would Hex Parasite come in handy? I dig that card a lot, but I wonder how often it just sits there as a boring 1/1.
edit: Off topic, but there's always Goblin Guide as people have suggested earlier in this thread. Sure it doesn't do anything about our life total, but it's as good as tempo creatures get, and almost always eats a removal spell.
That's why I like the idea of noxious revival because it addresses the problem of fatal push as you can get back a death's shadow on top of being a versatile tool for the deck (e.g. timewalk opponent, stuck on one land and getting back a fetch,getting back a temur battlerage to help finish the game off, helps with the life loss). I'm going to run 4 to test it tomorrow and report how it does.
If someone has the chance to proxy that or the Jund decklist which is doing really good online with a midrange deck with Fatal Push it woulb be awesome. Let us know
Do you have the link for those Jund lists? I was already interested in going Jund with Death's Shadow, and the Probe banning is the Fatal Push for me going into that direction (Sorry for the awful pun xD)
Here is a list I really like : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-brg-32571#online. The deck is more popular then the classic Death's Shadow online in the last month ! In fact it's doing really well. The deck is more resilient to kill since you have Traverse and Kolaghan Command. Also 4 TS + 3 IOK help a lot to remove the Path/Fatal Push. I don't know how the deck would do without the 4 Git Prob and Fatal Push.
I think we could change 2 Goyf for 2 Hooting Mandrills. Switch the 2 Decay for 2 Push. Add 2 Blossoming defense and 2 Surgical Extraction (with all the discard).
I also wonder if we still need the Goyf... Maybee we need more delve creature or spellskite (help losing life and cover our other creatures)? If we cut Goyf, maybee Bauble is not good anymore. It help for delve but we can't get the free cantrip
I also wonder if Painful Truths could be possible in a Death's Shadow shell ? Would definitely pair well with Gut Shot / Dismember.
edit: Sinister Concoction seems viable. Discarding a card isn't ideal, but this card aids with Delirium, and gives us 3 delve by itself while cutting opponent's tempo.
I forgot about Lacerator. Steady life loss, opponent probably doesn't want to waste removal on it, but how many turns do we really want our games to last? 1 per turn isn't serious work.
In which scenarios would Hex Parasite come in handy? I dig that card a lot, but I wonder how often it just sits there as a boring 1/1.
edit: Off topic, but there's always Goblin Guide as people have suggested earlier in this thread. Sure it doesn't do anything about our life total, but it's as good as tempo creatures get, and almost always eats a removal spell.
Yeah they are both suboptimal choices but were the first that have come to mind.
I agree Goblin Guide seems not like the best choice, especiall now that Narnam Renegade has been spoiled. Maybe we could go a more burn orientated route like traditional zoo with cards like Tribal Flames as additional "finisher".
That's why I like the idea of noxious revival because it addresses the problem of fatal push as you can get back a death's shadow on top of being a versatile tool for the deck (e.g. timewalk opponent, stuck on one land and getting back a fetch,getting back a temur battlerage to help finish the game off, helps with the life loss). I'm going to run 4 to test it tomorrow and report how it does.
If someone has the chance to proxy that or the Jund decklist which is doing really good online with a midrange deck with Fatal Push it woulb be awesome. Let us know
Do you have the link for those Jund lists? I was already interested in going Jund with Death's Shadow, and the Probe banning is the Fatal Push for me going into that direction (Sorry for the awful pun xD)
Here is a list I really like : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-brg-32571#online. The deck is more popular then the classic Death's Shadow online in the last month ! In fact it's doing really well. The deck is more resilient to kill since you have Traverse and Kolaghan Command. Also 4 TS + 3 IOK help a lot to remove the Path/Fatal Push. I don't know how the deck would do without the 4 Git Prob and Fatal Push.
I think we could change 2 Goyf for 2 Hooting Mandrills. Switch the 2 Decay for 2 Push. Add 2 Blossoming defense and 2 Surgical Extraction (with all the discard).
I also wonder if we still need the Goyf... Maybee we need more delve creature or spellskite (help losing life and cover our other creatures)? If we cut Goyf, maybee Bauble is not good anymore. It help for delve but we can't get the free cantrip
I like those more "Jund-like" builds too but the problem is that you have this strong tension between Traverse/Grim Flayer (which are both fantastic cards) and delve guys like Mandrills. Goyf may not be needed, but he works well with Traverse and could potentially be as huge as 6/7 in these lists.
Runninh something like 4 DS, 4 Flayer and 4 Goyfs alongside Traverse gives you an extremely high number of must kill threads but they all die pretty easily to Fatal Push.
I like the idea. I will try to proxy this:
4 DS
4 SW
1 Shriekmaw
4 Goyf
2 GF
surgical extraction might not be what we need, probe was good because it didnt cost you a card and you could play it turn 1. i think trying to replace it its not the correct aproach, we are already playing the closests replacements in street wraith and mishra's bauble. i think we have to look for cheap cards that are at least a 1 for 1 and make us pay life, maybe dismember
in the delirium build i would also try to maintain the number of sorcerys, maybe add the fourth inquisition
I forgot about Lacerator. Steady life loss, opponent probably doesn't want to waste removal on it, but how many turns do we really want our games to last? 1 per turn isn't serious work.
In which scenarios would Hex Parasite come in handy? I dig that card a lot, but I wonder how often it just sits there as a boring 1/1.
edit: Off topic, but there's always Goblin Guide as people have suggested earlier in this thread. Sure it doesn't do anything about our life total, but it's as good as tempo creatures get, and almost always eats a removal spell.
Yeah they are both suboptimal choices but were the first that have come to mind.
I agree Goblin Guide seems not like the best choice, especiall now that Narnam Renegade has been spoiled. Maybe we could go a more burn orientated route like traditional zoo with cards like Tribal Flames as additional "finisher".
Do you have the link for those Jund lists? I was already interested in going Jund with Death's Shadow, and the Probe banning is the Fatal Push for me going into that direction (Sorry for the awful pun xD)
Here is a list I really like : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-brg-32571#online. The deck is more popular then the classic Death's Shadow online in the last month ! In fact it's doing really well. The deck is more resilient to kill since you have Traverse and Kolaghan Command. Also 4 TS + 3 IOK help a lot to remove the Path/Fatal Push. I don't know how the deck would do without the 4 Git Prob and Fatal Push.
I think we could change 2 Goyf for 2 Hooting Mandrills. Switch the 2 Decay for 2 Push. Add 2 Blossoming defense and 2 Surgical Extraction (with all the discard).
I also wonder if we still need the Goyf... Maybee we need more delve creature or spellskite (help losing life and cover our other creatures)? If we cut Goyf, maybee Bauble is not good anymore. It help for delve but we can't get the free cantrip
I like those more "Jund-like" builds too but the problem is that you have this strong tension between Traverse/Grim Flayer (which are both fantastic cards) and delve guys like Mandrills. Goyf may not be needed, but he works well with Traverse and could potentially be as huge as 6/7 in these lists.
Runninh something like 4 DS, 4 Flayer and 4 Goyfs alongside Traverse gives you an extremely high number of must kill threads but they all die pretty easily to Fatal Push.
I like the idea. I will try to proxy this:
4 DS
4 SW
1 Shriekmaw
4 Goyf
2 GF
You are very close to simply playing a worse version of Jund at that point - and I think it is very important to keep that in mind when changing this deck.
I don't think there is such a thing. I changed only the 4 Git Prob in the Death Shadow Jund decklist. Of course, there is some good cards that are played in both list, but Death Shadow Jund is a deck on his own. Currently, it's the 6th deck played in the meta. Cutting the 4 Git Prob for 2 Surgical and 2 GF make it look like a little bit more like a Jund, but I think it can still work. And the strategy is not the same that of a Jund !! Also, with 7 discards cards, you chance of hitting a good target for a surgical turn 1 are good.
With a fetch a TS and a Surgical in hand, you can hit 13 life turn 1, look at your opponent hands and remove a threat from the game.
Do you think the basic Forest should be the extra land? Would make sense if we start playing the Kird elf . I suppose the Jund lists would probably want another Overgrown Tomb?
Something else I'm wondering: what happens to Become Immense? Does it just get cut? I guess it would make sense in the Delirium lists..
I'm going to start toying with Sinister Concoction. It seems like a fantastic multipurpose card for this deck.
If you are thinking of a command or charm, Boros Charm would be much more useful than Kolaghan's Command. Creature protection, damage to the face or double strike, and it costs 1 less, in a deck that only has 5 land i think it's best to preserve rather than spend wildly.
I've found it harder than i want to hit delirium in this deck and i think it's the wrong way to go. The Kird ELF can replace lynx or in my case Gnarlwood dryad and some sort of creature protection/hand destruction should replace the probes, just to shore up against Fatal Push etc.
Still have to tweek around the numbers of BI and Tarfire (maybe ad a Rancor/blossoming defense too?) but it looks promising.
traverse asks you a lot, you can't realy count battle rage as instant because you plan to cast it to win the game, same as mutagenic growth. also you dont want to count traverse itself as a sorcery because you want to tutor for a creature
what do you think of that list? its more traditional but without white
How would you feel about 3 TBR / 2 BI split? 4 TBR seems rough with 8 creatures who can't really benefit from it (Elf and Swiftspear).
Have you ever cast Rampager as a creature? Is it even worth considering?
Also why Gut Shot over Dismember? I feel like Dismember is much more applicable across the meta. It also picks up the life loss slack that Probe left behind.
Why Flayers in the SB? When do they come in ?
Really like the prospect of playing basic lands.
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This is what I think too.
It doesn't give us a card but it can potentially reduce the numbers of cards in our opponent's hand, what 'virtually' is the same thing!
Noxious Revival is interesting also, because it can target our opponent grave, but I don't know what kind of plays we can achieve with this... if it isn't a good option, Postmortem Lunge is a better option!
Do you have the link for those Jund lists? I was already interested in going Jund with Death's Shadow, and the Probe banning is the Fatal Push for me going into that direction (Sorry for the awful pun xD)
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-brg-32571#online
i don't think the death shadow decks are competitive without probe but i would love to be wrong on that
maybe 4 seize and 4 dismember make up for it
Noxious Revival
Orzhov Char
Groundswell
blossoming defense
Tasigur, the Golden Fang - more for sideboard
Tombstalker - more for sideboard
Gut Shot
Surgical Extraction
Probe, aside from being an awesome cantrip, was often used to check if the coast was clear for alpha striking or laying threats. I think there are 3 ways to reconstruct from this loss:
1. Replace with more protection
2. Replace with more disruption
3. Replace with more threats
Point 1 is self explanatory: More Apostle's Blessing, Blossoming Defense, even Vines of Vastwood. These cards blank opponent removal (which there will be more of in the near future) while simultaneously preventing tempo loss.
Point 2: Probe was the best digging card we had, and digging is (above all else) used to speed up our game. So our game got a little slower, which is awful for such an aggressive combo deck. So: how do we adjust? Do we find another way to maintain tempo (would love some ideas), or start to edge more toward control (4 Thoughtseize X Surgical, maybe even MB IoK)? I would love to play Gut Shot, but how many targets do we viably have with 1 toughness? Let's also not forget about the baddest removal spell possibly ever printed : Dismember.
Point 3: Or do we dump more threats into the deck in classic Zoo form to try to overwhelm the opponent? Death's Shadow is the only reason to suicide ourselves, but it's damn well worth it. Are there any viable creatures that can do damage to us in a productive way? I would love to replace Probe 1:1 with a creature that also ticks down our life total. I think the caveat here is that Swiftspear is less good with the loss of free prowess triggers.
A more Zoo-centric list could also benefit from an emphasis on Delirium like the Grim Flayer lists. (JW: Any worthwhile 1cmc enchantments out there?)
I'm not sure that Noxious Revival is worth playing. It's too durdley and doesn't actually gain us a card. I can get behind Postmortem Lunge, but it's pretty useless with anything larger than 2cmc (Mandrills, Tombstalker, Gurmag Angler).
In which scenarios would Hex Parasite come in handy? I dig that card a lot, but I wonder how often it just sits there as a boring 1/1.
edit: Off topic, but there's always Goblin Guide as people have suggested earlier in this thread. Sure it doesn't do anything about our life total, but it's as good as tempo creatures get, and almost always eats a removal spell.
Here is a list I really like : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-brg-32571#online. The deck is more popular then the classic Death's Shadow online in the last month ! In fact it's doing really well. The deck is more resilient to kill since you have Traverse and Kolaghan Command. Also 4 TS + 3 IOK help a lot to remove the Path/Fatal Push. I don't know how the deck would do without the 4 Git Prob and Fatal Push.
I think we could change 2 Goyf for 2 Hooting Mandrills. Switch the 2 Decay for 2 Push. Add 2 Blossoming defense and 2 Surgical Extraction (with all the discard).
I also wonder if we still need the Goyf... Maybee we need more delve creature or spellskite (help losing life and cover our other creatures)? If we cut Goyf, maybee Bauble is not good anymore. It help for delve but we can't get the free cantrip
edit: Sinister Concoction seems viable. Discarding a card isn't ideal, but this card aids with Delirium, and gives us 3 delve by itself while cutting opponent's tempo.
I like the idea. I will try to proxy this:
4 DS
4 SW
1 Shriekmaw
4 Goyf
2 GF
2 Kolaghan Command
4 Traverse
2 Fatal Push
4 Tarfire
2 Surgical Extrac
3 IoK
4 TS
4 Temur
4 Bauble
16 lands
surgical extraction might not be what we need, probe was good because it didnt cost you a card and you could play it turn 1. i think trying to replace it its not the correct aproach, we are already playing the closests replacements in street wraith and mishra's bauble. i think we have to look for cheap cards that are at least a 1 for 1 and make us pay life, maybe dismember
in the delirium build i would also try to maintain the number of sorcerys, maybe add the fourth inquisition
I don't think there is such a thing. I changed only the 4 Git Prob in the Death Shadow Jund decklist. Of course, there is some good cards that are played in both list, but Death Shadow Jund is a deck on his own. Currently, it's the 6th deck played in the meta. Cutting the 4 Git Prob for 2 Surgical and 2 GF make it look like a little bit more like a Jund, but I think it can still work. And the strategy is not the same that of a Jund !! Also, with 7 discards cards, you chance of hitting a good target for a surgical turn 1 are good.
With a fetch a TS and a Surgical in hand, you can hit 13 life turn 1, look at your opponent hands and remove a threat from the game.
Anyway, the only way to know is to play it
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
Something else I'm wondering: what happens to Become Immense? Does it just get cut? I guess it would make sense in the Delirium lists..
I'm going to start toying with Sinister Concoction. It seems like a fantastic multipurpose card for this deck.
I've found it harder than i want to hit delirium in this deck and i think it's the wrong way to go. The Kird ELF can replace lynx or in my case Gnarlwood dryad and some sort of creature protection/hand destruction should replace the probes, just to shore up against Fatal Push etc.
this "jund version" just made 5-0 without probes
so maybe theres hope!
That's a completely different deck.
4 Death's Shadow
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (14)
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (7)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Manamorphose
4 Mishra's Bauble
Land (18)
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
Tribal instant (4)
4 Tarfire
1 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
traverse asks you a lot, you can't realy count battle rage as instant because you plan to cast it to win the game, same as mutagenic growth. also you dont want to count traverse itself as a sorcery because you want to tutor for a creature
what do you think of that list? its more traditional but without white
2 kird ape
4 monastery swiftspear
4 death's shadow
2 tarmogoyf
4 street wraith
4 mishra's bauble
4 thoughtseize
2 lightning bolt
2 dismember
4 mutagenic growth
3 become immense
4 temur battle rage
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
1 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
1 swamp
1 forest
if you dont like dropping nacatl its very easy to put it back by cutting ape and goyf and playing the already proven mana base
Have you ever cast Rampager as a creature? Is it even worth considering?
Also why Gut Shot over Dismember? I feel like Dismember is much more applicable across the meta. It also picks up the life loss slack that Probe left behind.
Why Flayers in the SB? When do they come in ?
Really like the prospect of playing basic lands.