Bolt is still effective against our deck, not against the shadow itself but it does fine against lynx, nacatl and swiftspear. There are a high number of games where we end it with not shadow so saying bolt is ineffective against our deck isn't fair.
Also I acknowledge that more decks get helped by this being a one mana removal spell but those same decks already had 2 mana options that were easily as good as this against us. Terminate is honestly about the same as this for most decks. My point was that decks that run 17 kill spells will still run 17 kill spells. The 'upgrade' of this being 1 mana cheaper really isn't much of a factor in our matchup. We have to have more threats than they have answers. That is generally limited by handsize and not mana efficiency.
Wasn't bolt snap bolt also a great way of killing this deck?
Bolt-snap-bolt was favored against DSZ because they could take advantage of your low life total if you were being aggressive and just bolt you to death. But if you slowed down they had a better lategame too.
I was just about to ask about how much of a hit we take because of Probe. So this is the hit we take...
We lose information which helps to structure our plays
We lose a free Cantrip
We lose a free life loss spell
So what I found is that we won't have a spell that gives us all 3 of these things but can give us 1 of these things.
So for the free information? We have Thoughtseize to give us this in order to help but slows us a turn.
For the cantrip we can run Manamorphose to do the same but a turn slower and limits our options if we don't plan to spend the 2 mana right away.
For life loss we have Blessing, and Gut Shot, and other phyrexian mana spells.
So I think the ban did was intended and slowed the deck down but have to test to see if it just slowed it down or severely nerfed it.
Now let's talk new cards. Let's start with Fatal Push. This card hurts the deck and is something we have to figure out. Maybe the spell we replace the prob with is Blessing? Or maybe Postmortum Lunge?
I think we also gain a card Narnam Renegade. It's basically Kird Ape with death touch. I know a while back there are list floating around running the deathtouch dryad and a bit debate if that is better than lynx which I ended up going with no. This card though....might be better than lynx. Much easier to meet the revolt mechanic then to hit delirium constantly by a certain turn. I feel this card is right in the middle of the best of both. It doesn't have the high end as Lynx early but it has a better early game then Dryad. Late game Lynx sucks, this card is still good and dryad is better. So it might be the right card in the Lynx spot of the deck.
I think this deck needs to push away from DS and go splash blue for Thought Scour and Delve fatties. This direction helps dodging the downside of losing Probe to some extent, and definitely reacts to Fatal Push usability. At this point, dropping the Temur Battle rage seems necessary
This might be straight up crap, but I think the deck is really hurt and we might have to shift to a Big boys value zoo. If this is not the case, please get me back to my senses cause I just picked up the deck and I'm panicking.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Not sure fatal push is definatly a pain but not sure if cutting steppe lynx is right either steppe while being one of our worst creature is still pretty strong and helps if you start drawing lands
What about Surgical Extraction as Probe replacement?
They are not the same thing, of course, but it hurts ourselves, it gives us information and it can give card advantage as well.
Well b&r happened...
We lost git probe. There really isnt anything to fill that specific role that we arent already using. My first thought is to use the slots to just increase the number of threats/disruption.
What about noxious revival in place of probe? It addresses the fatal push problem as we can recur our creatures back from the graveyard.
Plus it works well with mishra's bauble as you can look at the top of the opponents library and its something you don't want them to draw that turn you can noxious revival a less relevant card (like a fetch land) to the top and you essentially time walk them.
With the advent of Push and the loss of Probe, I was expecting to see someone advocate for Blossoming Defense in that slot. Why isn't this a good choice for this deck?
I could definitely dig playing surgical back in the md, I did that for quite some time before I got my baubles.
The main issue with most of these though is that they don't cantrip. Which throws off our deck balance. We may find we need to add more creatures in this slot. The new Revolt ape and/or the 1g 4/3 could be nice additions.
Yeah but both surgical and noxious kinda work to help keep removal at bay surgicaling a path or fatal push could be good and noxiousing a land or shadow ontop of you libary is good sure the lose of cantrip is annoying and maybe with fatal push being printed the deck will die but only time will tell
That's why I like the idea of noxious revival because it addresses the problem of fatal push as you can get back a death's shadow on top of being a versatile tool for the deck (e.g. timewalk opponent, stuck on one land and getting back a fetch,getting back a temur battlerage to help finish the game off, helps with the life loss). I'm going to run 4 to test it tomorrow and report how it does.
That's why I like the idea of noxious revival because it addresses the problem of fatal push as you can get back a death's shadow on top of being a versatile tool for the deck (e.g. timewalk opponent, stuck on one land and getting back a fetch,getting back a temur battlerage to help finish the game off, helps with the life loss). I'm going to run 4 to test it tomorrow and report how it does.
If someone has the chance to proxy that or the Jund decklist which is doing really good online with a midrange deck with Fatal Push it woulb be awesome. Let us know
Perhaps running the 4th thoughtseize, and having 3 flex spots for either noxious revival, postmortem lunge, apostle's blessing or surgical extraction? We can even cut down on bolts for more slots, and leave all pieces of interaction in the sideboard?
Also I acknowledge that more decks get helped by this being a one mana removal spell but those same decks already had 2 mana options that were easily as good as this against us. Terminate is honestly about the same as this for most decks. My point was that decks that run 17 kill spells will still run 17 kill spells. The 'upgrade' of this being 1 mana cheaper really isn't much of a factor in our matchup. We have to have more threats than they have answers. That is generally limited by handsize and not mana efficiency.
Bolt-snap-bolt was favored against DSZ because they could take advantage of your low life total if you were being aggressive and just bolt you to death. But if you slowed down they had a better lategame too.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
We lose information which helps to structure our plays
We lose a free Cantrip
We lose a free life loss spell
So what I found is that we won't have a spell that gives us all 3 of these things but can give us 1 of these things.
So for the free information? We have Thoughtseize to give us this in order to help but slows us a turn.
For the cantrip we can run Manamorphose to do the same but a turn slower and limits our options if we don't plan to spend the 2 mana right away.
For life loss we have Blessing, and Gut Shot, and other phyrexian mana spells.
So I think the ban did was intended and slowed the deck down but have to test to see if it just slowed it down or severely nerfed it.
Now let's talk new cards. Let's start with Fatal Push. This card hurts the deck and is something we have to figure out. Maybe the spell we replace the prob with is Blessing? Or maybe Postmortum Lunge?
I think we also gain a card Narnam Renegade. It's basically Kird Ape with death touch. I know a while back there are list floating around running the deathtouch dryad and a bit debate if that is better than lynx which I ended up going with no. This card though....might be better than lynx. Much easier to meet the revolt mechanic then to hit delirium constantly by a certain turn. I feel this card is right in the middle of the best of both. It doesn't have the high end as Lynx early but it has a better early game then Dryad. Late game Lynx sucks, this card is still good and dryad is better. So it might be the right card in the Lynx spot of the deck.
Thoughts?
This is what comes to mind:
3x Thoughtseize
2x Fatal Push
4x Thought Scour
4x Faithless Looting
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Mutagenic Growth
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Tarfire
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hooting Mandrills
3x Gurmag Angler
2x Polluted Delta
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Stomping Ground
1x Mountain
1x Forest
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Dispel
1x Fatal Push
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Blossoming Defense
1x Dismember
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Pulse of Murasa
This might be straight up crap, but I think the deck is really hurt and we might have to shift to a Big boys value zoo. If this is not the case, please get me back to my senses cause I just picked up the deck and I'm panicking.
They are not the same thing, of course, but it hurts ourselves, it gives us information and it can give card advantage as well.
We lost git probe. There really isnt anything to fill that specific role that we arent already using. My first thought is to use the slots to just increase the number of threats/disruption.
Plus it works well with mishra's bauble as you can look at the top of the opponents library and its something you don't want them to draw that turn you can noxious revival a less relevant card (like a fetch land) to the top and you essentially time walk them.
The main issue with most of these though is that they don't cantrip. Which throws off our deck balance. We may find we need to add more creatures in this slot. The new Revolt ape and/or the 1g 4/3 could be nice additions.
If someone has the chance to proxy that or the Jund decklist which is doing really good online with a midrange deck with Fatal Push it woulb be awesome. Let us know
Affinity
Legacy:
GBCombo Elves
EDH:
GEzuri, Renegade Leader's Elf Ball
Cube:
180 Peasant Micro Cube