I'm also wondering, how would you guys sideboard against the RG zoo deck?
We are generally the better zoo deck. If they curve out then there's nothing we can do, and it seems like you just faced God draws.
I run stock list with 2x Kird Ape and 1x Goyf and in this match-up, I take out 2x Become Immense, 2x Git Probe, 2x Bauble and add 2x Mandrills, 2x PtE, 2x Lightning Helix ( my meta is fairly aggressive with lots of bolt decks and tribal decks).
I solitaire hands often, just to figure out keepable versus unkeepable hands, lines of play, etc and came accross one I thought was interesting.
You sit down accross from your opponent blind on what they are on. You are playing the Jund flayer deck as seen in the above post and your opening seven is
2x Gnarlwood Dryad
1x Thoughtseize
1x Mishra's Bauble
1x Mutagenic Growth
1x Monastery Swiftspear.
1x Verdant Catacombs
Keep or mull? If you keep, whats the play?'
Bauble their top card, to try to get a sense of what they are playing. If it's the mirror, or some other combo deck, fetching a overgrown tomb into the thoughtseize. If I see something else I still fetch into the tomb (unless its burn) and play a gnarlwood. If it's burn I think I fetch the forest, but not sure. If I see just bolt, I probably go Tomb into Gnarlwood, as bolt doesn't tell me squat.
Keep because you can play everything in your hand except for the swiftspear. It's slower, but playable and you'll have delerium on turn 3 if you use the growth.
i dont get why suicide zoo is tier 1 and scapeshift is tier 2, didnt scapeshift won a pro tour or something in 2016 in baltimore? i have a vague memories of something like that...anyway i dont care because i can beat suicide zoo without even breaking a sweat with my sideboard chalice of the void
i dont get why suicide zoo is tier 1 and scapeshift is tier 2, didnt scapeshift won a pro tour or something in 2016 in baltimore? i have a vague memories of something like that...anyway i dont care because i can beat suicide zoo without even breaking a sweat with my sideboard chalice of the void
I'm not sure I understand. Both of those are dealt with easily enough by Ancient Grudge?
And you could say the same about a lot of Tier 1 decks. (Chalice on 0 really cripples affinity, on 1 really hurts infect and dredge) but it's definitely not a free win. Especially since it's an artifact and literally every sideboard has artifact hate
I want to clarify, I can use spellskite's ability on my own creature spells right? A situation came up in my testing where I was at 14 life and had a Gnarlwood Dryad and a Death's Shadow in hand, with a spellskite on the field. I can cast the Death's Shadow, retain priority and use spellskite's ability on the shadow until I get into a more comfortable shadow range (lets say 8 life) then have the shadow resolve as a 5/5 right?
Hey Guys!
I bought into the deck yesterday, as i only lacked the Shadow's + Bauble's and looked for a secondary deck that's both, fast and fun to play. Sometimes you just need to play a deck that don't has to grind out most of it's games for 10+ rounds.
Got inspired by those Delirium Jund lists without a white splash. I really like that this kind of build can kill fast but also has decent interaction against many decks and definitely can play a more grindy game if needed. Would be nice if someone could give me some feedback about my list, thanks!
Edit: Is it worth running protection spells ala Apostle's Blessing/Vines in the board? Or are additional discard spells usually enough?
Any particular reason for running the second tarfire over the rancor? As an enchantment and a way to give our creatures trample, rancor does quite a bit of work.
Spellskite’s ability can target any spell or ability, not just a spell or ability with a target. So you can legally play the ability targeting something like a Supreme Verdict, it just won’t do anything when it resolves because Supreme Verdict doesn’t target anything.
I didn't read the link, but to further expand on that point, you can even use spellskite on your fetchlands.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
NOTE --- My sideboarding is based on my own experiences and my LGS Meta: lots of Jund, Nahiri, and flavor of the week combo (was Dredge, now Scapeshift) -- I am unsure if it's optimal ---
The Infect matchup is a toss-up --- board out Mutagenics and board in removal/IOK and race. Take care to keep track of fetchlands to avoid Dryad Arbor blow-outs. Our creatures' are stronger than theirs, and they generally have only one threat on the board, so we can blow them out at any point.
---Prioritize Blighted Agent and their counter-spells with discard -- their only removal option (Dismember) advances our own game-plan and therefore it's a good idea to make an effort to stick two threats and force them into a tough spot.
Affinity I believe we a favored -- their creatures are dinky and they don't have a lot of ways to kill our creatures. A TBR on a Death's Shadow is usually game-over.
--- Board out Mutagenics and a couple cyclers, board in anti-artifact cards and removal (Pyroclasm).
Jund is fairly hard -- As a lightening bolt deck they can burn you out from 8 health or so quickly. Prioritize hands with multiple threats and take care to not carelessly play pumps/TBR into open mana for the 2 for 1.
---I board out 3x discard, 2x Become Immense, 4x mutagenic for 3x Lingering souls, 2x Hooting Mandrills,2x Path to Exile, 1x Traverse the Ulvenwald, and 1x Forest (to help cast Lingering Souls)
For reference, my sideboard is:
3x Lingering Souls
2x Hooting Mandrills
2x Path
2x Pyroclasm
1x Dismember
1x Stony Silence
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Natural State
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Forest
Candidly speaking I moved from Infect to Death's Shadow and now have both decks. I think Death's Shadow is the overall stronger of the two. However, it (Death's Shadow) is fairly complicated to play ( I have a bad habit of getting burned out by Bolt decks from 7-8 life on turn 3-4 or improperly sequencing interaction). I get frustrated with the deck sometimes as there are a lot more nonsense hands ( 1 Steppe Lynx, 1 Death's Shadow, 2 TBR, 1 Mutagenic, 1 Wooded Foothills, I Thoughtseize) than you would experience with Infect. Sometimes I feel the deck is trying to do to much all at once, being a fast-aggro/combo four-color deck with a black win-con creature, green and red combat tricks, and white sideboard cards. The manabase is difficult to manage, particularly when you couple a card like Wild Nacatl with a card like Thoughtseize. It is, however, FUN and rewarding and I'd recommend it to anyone with a lot of patience and the will to take a good many licks.
One thing I really like about Death's Shadow in comparison to Infect is that match-ups against creature-based decks are a lot easier with stronger, bigger, and more resilient threats. A sequence of Wild Nacatl into Thoughtseize and Death's Shadow is hard for most of these decks to overcome
The Death and Taxes match-up is actually really difficult in my experience -- before Death's Shadow became a known entity they didn't know how to play against us. Now, in my experience, they prioritize attacking our fragile manabase (I've had my T1 land Ghost Quartered many times) and follow it up with slow beatdowns. Still unsure how to sideboard against them.
Hi all! I have been playing this deck for about a year, pretty solid on the MB, but I'm considering some shifts in the board to be more flexible...
Current board cards that are powerful, but narrow (other 11 are fairly locked-in):
1 Pyroclasm (sweeper)
1 Stony Silence (artifact)
1 Ancient Grudge (artifact)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (yard)
Considering the following to replace up to 3 of the above:
1 Golgari Charm (sweeper, protection, enchantment)
1 Rakdos Charm (artifact, yard)
1 Wear/Tear (artifact, enchantment)
Hi all! I have been playing this deck for about a year, pretty solid on the MB, but I'm considering some shifts in the board to be more flexible...
Current board cards that are powerful, but narrow (other 11 are fairly locked-in):
1 Pyroclasm (sweeper)
1 Stony Silence (artifact)
1 Ancient Grudge (artifact)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (yard)
Considering the following to replace up to 3 of the above:
1 Golgari Charm (sweeper, protection, enchantment)
1 Rakdos Charm (artifact, yard)
1 Wear/Tear (artifact, enchantment)
Clasm hits 2 power dudes and doesn't lower the damage you're swinging in with after, Silence turns off artifacts, grudge gets around chalice and grafdiggers cage just wins against most graveyard strategies. So no, you should not switch to those.
Guys I am currently on Infect but awaiting for the announcement and if everything is allright, I want to build the deck.
Unfortunately, I neither have Tarmogoyfs nor I can buy them in the future. Does somebody have an adequate replacement or a list without Tarmogoyfs that could be super viable?
Regards, George.
In the long run, I think if you are serious about playing Modern, you need your playset of Tarmogoyfs.
For this deck, I don't think it's even suitable. This is like those 1-drop zoo decks, trying to end the game fast, except with trample rather than going wide. Instead, I think Hooting Mandrills is mandatory in the 75, maybe even 60.
Clasm hits 2 power dudes and doesn't lower the damage you're swinging in with after, Silence turns off artifacts, grudge gets around chalice and grafdiggers cage just wins against most graveyard strategies. So no, you should not switch to those.
I understand the words on the cards...I'm not really interested in statements reiterating what the cards do, I'm more interested in discussing the value of the specific advantages of the aforementioned "stock" SB cards vs. more versatile options.
Ultimately the meta overall is becoming more difficult for shadow zoo to navigate and I think added flexibility may be needed. At the same time I would suggest that given the nature of the deck a "blowout" card may be better, but moderate and flexible disruption may be "good enough" to open up the window needed for a win while allowing for use in other matchups.
For example, Cage may destroy Dredge. But Rakdos Charm could exile a few Dredgers and creatures while also adding value in matches like Affinity and Bant Eldrazi.
Or Pyroclasm "sweeps 2 toughness dudes," but Golgari Charm retains the ability to sweep in most of the relevant "go wide" situations (souls, affinity, manadorks), plus Inky/Blinky, while also adding value in grindier matchups and giving us access to enchantment removal for things like Blood Moon and Worship.
Also, as a side note...you reference "getting around Chalice" as an advantage of Grudge, but I didn't reference a single card that doesn't get around Grudge. I mean, other than Tear not fused.
So test it and see if it's better. You can speculate what's better than the tested and true all you want, but it doesn't stand on it's own. These cards are major swingers that give us the time to win these match ups or just straight destroy the problem decks.
I've tested the charms. All of them. The sideboard is fairly flexible but some of the fixed cards would be:
3~5 creatures
1 graveyard hate (nihil spellbomb, tormod's crypt)
1 stony silence
1 ancient grudge
1 pyroclasm
2 removal (path to exile, dismember)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
After that the flexible slots are for your choosing, but I would never run more than 1 charm, as they are expensive BUT also the color combo will depend on how you fetch up your lands (Overgrown tomb and Sacred Foundry cant cast your Golgari Charm)
In the long run, I think if you are serious about playing Modern, you need your playset of Tarmogoyfs.
I can't express how much I disagree with this statement. I'm so serious about not having Goyfs I won't focus on decks with goyfs in them. That's one of the best parts about modern. And I'd say most modern players lack Goyfs but don't mind me.
We are generally the better zoo deck. If they curve out then there's nothing we can do, and it seems like you just faced God draws.
I run stock list with 2x Kird Ape and 1x Goyf and in this match-up, I take out 2x Become Immense, 2x Git Probe, 2x Bauble and add 2x Mandrills, 2x PtE, 2x Lightning Helix ( my meta is fairly aggressive with lots of bolt decks and tribal decks).
Not sure if this is correct, but cheers.
I solitaire hands often, just to figure out keepable versus unkeepable hands, lines of play, etc and came accross one I thought was interesting.
You sit down accross from your opponent blind on what they are on. You are playing the Jund flayer deck as seen in the above post and your opening seven is
2x Gnarlwood Dryad
1x Thoughtseize
1x Mishra's Bauble
1x Mutagenic Growth
1x Monastery Swiftspear.
1x Verdant Catacombs
Keep or mull? If you keep, whats the play?'
My H/W list
edit: when kaladesh comes out it'll be even easier madcap experiment platinum emperion
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
1. Sword art online 2. Fairy tail 3. Naruto(shipuden) 4. Bleach 5. Claymore
I'm not sure I understand. Both of those are dealt with easily enough by Ancient Grudge?
And you could say the same about a lot of Tier 1 decks. (Chalice on 0 really cripples affinity, on 1 really hurts infect and dredge) but it's definitely not a free win. Especially since it's an artifact and literally every sideboard has artifact hate
My H/W list
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Any particular reason for running the second tarfire over the rancor? As an enchantment and a way to give our creatures trample, rancor does quite a bit of work.
My H/W list
4 Death's Shadow
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Street Wraith
2 Steppe Lynx
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Thoughtseize
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Become Immense
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Dismember
1 Forest
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Stony Silence
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Faith's Shield
1 Path to Exile
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
1 Become Immense
1 Dismember
1 Swamp
2 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Tarfire
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Spellskite
2 Pyroclasm
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 Gut Shot
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Natural State
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Death's Shadow
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Street Wraith
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
3 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Stubborn Denial
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
60 Cards
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Pyroclasm
1 Dispel
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Darkness
3 Hurkyl's Recall
The Jund list 60 has only 1 card different than my list (I am running seal of fire over the second tarfire)
My H/W list
I didn't read the link, but to further expand on that point, you can even use spellskite on your fetchlands.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
The Infect matchup is a toss-up --- board out Mutagenics and board in removal/IOK and race. Take care to keep track of fetchlands to avoid Dryad Arbor blow-outs. Our creatures' are stronger than theirs, and they generally have only one threat on the board, so we can blow them out at any point.
---Prioritize Blighted Agent and their counter-spells with discard -- their only removal option (Dismember) advances our own game-plan and therefore it's a good idea to make an effort to stick two threats and force them into a tough spot.
Affinity I believe we a favored -- their creatures are dinky and they don't have a lot of ways to kill our creatures. A TBR on a Death's Shadow is usually game-over.
--- Board out Mutagenics and a couple cyclers, board in anti-artifact cards and removal (Pyroclasm).
Jund is fairly hard -- As a lightening bolt deck they can burn you out from 8 health or so quickly. Prioritize hands with multiple threats and take care to not carelessly play pumps/TBR into open mana for the 2 for 1.
---I board out 3x discard, 2x Become Immense, 4x mutagenic for 3x Lingering souls, 2x Hooting Mandrills,2x Path to Exile, 1x Traverse the Ulvenwald, and 1x Forest (to help cast Lingering Souls)
For reference, my sideboard is:
3x Lingering Souls
2x Hooting Mandrills
2x Path
2x Pyroclasm
1x Dismember
1x Stony Silence
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Natural State
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Forest
Candidly speaking I moved from Infect to Death's Shadow and now have both decks. I think Death's Shadow is the overall stronger of the two. However, it (Death's Shadow) is fairly complicated to play ( I have a bad habit of getting burned out by Bolt decks from 7-8 life on turn 3-4 or improperly sequencing interaction). I get frustrated with the deck sometimes as there are a lot more nonsense hands ( 1 Steppe Lynx, 1 Death's Shadow, 2 TBR, 1 Mutagenic, 1 Wooded Foothills, I Thoughtseize) than you would experience with Infect. Sometimes I feel the deck is trying to do to much all at once, being a fast-aggro/combo four-color deck with a black win-con creature, green and red combat tricks, and white sideboard cards. The manabase is difficult to manage, particularly when you couple a card like Wild Nacatl with a card like Thoughtseize. It is, however, FUN and rewarding and I'd recommend it to anyone with a lot of patience and the will to take a good many licks.
One thing I really like about Death's Shadow in comparison to Infect is that match-ups against creature-based decks are a lot easier with stronger, bigger, and more resilient threats. A sequence of Wild Nacatl into Thoughtseize and Death's Shadow is hard for most of these decks to overcome
The Death and Taxes match-up is actually really difficult in my experience -- before Death's Shadow became a known entity they didn't know how to play against us. Now, in my experience, they prioritize attacking our fragile manabase (I've had my T1 land Ghost Quartered many times) and follow it up with slow beatdowns. Still unsure how to sideboard against them.
Cheers.
My H/W list
Current board cards that are powerful, but narrow (other 11 are fairly locked-in):
1 Pyroclasm (sweeper)
1 Stony Silence (artifact)
1 Ancient Grudge (artifact)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (yard)
Considering the following to replace up to 3 of the above:
1 Golgari Charm (sweeper, protection, enchantment)
1 Rakdos Charm (artifact, yard)
1 Wear/Tear (artifact, enchantment)
Thoughts?
Current board cards that are powerful, but narrow (other 11 are fairly locked-in):
1 Pyroclasm (sweeper)
1 Stony Silence (artifact)
1 Ancient Grudge (artifact)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (yard)
Considering the following to replace up to 3 of the above:
1 Golgari Charm (sweeper, protection, enchantment)
1 Rakdos Charm (artifact, yard)
1 Wear/Tear (artifact, enchantment)
Thoughts?
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
In the long run, I think if you are serious about playing Modern, you need your playset of Tarmogoyfs.
For this deck, I don't think it's even suitable. This is like those 1-drop zoo decks, trying to end the game fast, except with trample rather than going wide. Instead, I think Hooting Mandrills is mandatory in the 75, maybe even 60.
I understand the words on the cards...I'm not really interested in statements reiterating what the cards do, I'm more interested in discussing the value of the specific advantages of the aforementioned "stock" SB cards vs. more versatile options.
Ultimately the meta overall is becoming more difficult for shadow zoo to navigate and I think added flexibility may be needed. At the same time I would suggest that given the nature of the deck a "blowout" card may be better, but moderate and flexible disruption may be "good enough" to open up the window needed for a win while allowing for use in other matchups.
For example, Cage may destroy Dredge. But Rakdos Charm could exile a few Dredgers and creatures while also adding value in matches like Affinity and Bant Eldrazi.
Or Pyroclasm "sweeps 2 toughness dudes," but Golgari Charm retains the ability to sweep in most of the relevant "go wide" situations (souls, affinity, manadorks), plus Inky/Blinky, while also adding value in grindier matchups and giving us access to enchantment removal for things like Blood Moon and Worship.
Also, as a side note...you reference "getting around Chalice" as an advantage of Grudge, but I didn't reference a single card that doesn't get around Grudge. I mean, other than Tear not fused.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
3~5 creatures
1 graveyard hate (nihil spellbomb, tormod's crypt)
1 stony silence
1 ancient grudge
1 pyroclasm
2 removal (path to exile, dismember)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
After that the flexible slots are for your choosing, but I would never run more than 1 charm, as they are expensive BUT also the color combo will depend on how you fetch up your lands (Overgrown tomb and Sacred Foundry cant cast your Golgari Charm)
Affinity
Legacy:
GBCombo Elves
EDH:
GEzuri, Renegade Leader's Elf Ball
Cube:
180 Peasant Micro Cube
I can't express how much I disagree with this statement. I'm so serious about not having Goyfs I won't focus on decks with goyfs in them. That's one of the best parts about modern. And I'd say most modern players lack Goyfs but don't mind me.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
Legacy