So I disagree with Sam Black assessment. I thought some of his sideboarding was questionable as well as hands he kept. When he said he added more instants to the because he was siding out manamorphose a lot I thought this was a mistake. You need to keep your cantrips as much as possible because the deck runs fewer lands and they help you see more cards. More cards means more chances for delirium earlier.
I think the Jund version can be a bit slower but it has some advantages. Spellskite is less effective, better Jund matchup, better Bant Eldrazi matchup. It loses some advantages in other areas but these match ups are tough and swinging them your way a bit helps. Below is the list I'm testing and I may cut a traverse for growth but not sure yet.
I know league results aren't really supportive of a deck being "good", but two more Zooicide lists got 5-0. One is the traditional 4 color list, with Gnarlwood over the Lynx, and the second being the exact 75 JUL and LSV ran, being the second 5-0 for the deck by a random person.
EDIT:
I was curious about how slow my deck actually is, so I played 20 solitaire games with it, noting what turn I have delirium, what turn I won, what the state of my hand is (Could I have rebuilt should they have killed my alpha strike creature),, whether or not I mulliganed, etc.
So out of 20 games:
Turn 3 Kills: 6
Turn 4 Kills: 9
Turn 5 Kills: 5
So I would venture a guess on being a turn slower on average.
Total of mulligans: 5
3 mulligans to 6, 2 mulligans to 5
4 of the mulligans had turn 5 kills, 1 had a turn 4 kill
Delirium Active:
Turn 1: 1
Turn 2: 7 (1 of these could have had delirium on turn 1)
Turn 3: 8 (2 of these could have had delirium active on turn 2)
Turn 4: 0
Turn 5: 2
This doesn't add up to 20 because I only counted what turn I actually got delirium. If I killed prior to getting delirium, as happened in 2 games, I left it as N/A.
Some notes:
The singleton Become Immense did work, won 3 of my games. In 2 of the games, I traversed before playing BI, tutoring up a DS should my BI not end the game.
11 of the games had a turn 1 or turn 2 thoughtseize. 3 of those had double seize. This might contribute to slowing of the deck, but in an actual game I would run out TS before laying my guy down, hoping to protect him or slow them down enough for him to get work done. Traverse did a lot, Traversing for Ghor-Clan or Street Wraith or even my second land drop, letting me play a turn 2 DS on a shaky mulligan hand. 2 of the turn 5 games had delirium issues, where I needed delirium and couldn't get there until late/never. Oddly, almost all of my mulligans were flooding based, where I felt that with 4 lands I had too little action. It's a bit funny when you think about it though, because at 4 lands I actually have 25% of my decks lands in my opener. While regular decks may keep a 4 land hand, they certainly wouldn't keep a 6 land hand (their equivalent of 25% lands hand). Both tarfire and seal of fire were great helps in turning on delirium, when drawn. Often, though, I could get away with just wraith, git probe, land, mutagenic, letting me hit them for 5 on turn 2 and enabling a traverse into DS. Played a game earlier against some odd heartbeat deck that was trying to stall the board out a bit by using seasons past to reuse explosives. They popped it 3 times killing my Dryad, DS, and Goyf (individually) but hardcasting the singleton rampager let me push through it.
I m The first one with more traditionnal zooicide list.
I played some thing like 200 mtgo matchs with the lynx list.
Then i tried the dryad and slightly increase my game win percentage.
Last Week i played the delirium list from LSV and cant manage to win with.
I made a lot Of mulligan and having delirium was not so Easy. Each game with out delirium, i lost By my self with multiple traverse copies in hand.
After 4 leagues, i get back my traditionnal zooicide list with dryad and made some 5/0 again.
So, I was watching Saffron Olive earlier stream playing some Abzan Eldritch evolution deck, which looked like basically old pod with evolution over Pod. He was 3-0 going into round 4 and came up against JohnnyHotSauce playing the manamorphose version of suicide zoo. Olive took game 1 on the back of a path, lost game 2 on turn 3, and drew a god hand on game 3. His hand on the play consisted of Thoughtseize, path, and spellskite. Johnny won on turn 4. Sam Black can say that the deck feels like a handicapped suicide zoo, but there is something here, notably how much more consistent this deck is through the usual hate.
How do we beat Bant Eldrazi? Matchup seems very hard, but I feel like I'm sideboarding completely incorrectly. Right now I board in goyfs, 1 stony 1 grudge (to deal with EE), and Dismember + a forest. I cut a land, the bolts, a pair of mutagenics, and one of each of the combo pieces (become + TBR)
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Canadian East Coast grinder
I live for fair Magic.
I think I'd just rather run the traditional list with 2-3 Traverse in the side. That way you are hyper aggressive G1 but can slow down for 2-3 if you need to. Traverse instead of RoE can find cards like skite if needed. I swapped 1 Bolt for Seal of Fire to help with Delerium post-board.
I had a terrible GP Lille this weekend, only won 1 match. I still think the deck is powerful and it was a good choice, the 3 in the top8s of the weekend tell me so at least, plus the others that top16d. It was just one of those days, also with bad matchups: r3 jeskai (L), r4 abzan evolution (L), r5 affinity (w), r6 abzan evolution (L), affinity (L). Today I played a SSS qualifier, single elimination, went 4-1. Beat dredge, affinity, burn, merfolk, finally losing to...naya evolution - it seems a really tough matchup these evolution decks.
I still like the deck, I'm just not sure if dredge is not even more powerful overall.
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Trophyless guy.
Thought of the Month: I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
Magnus Lanto and Sam Black articles on Death Shadow are good for this, don't have links right now but I'm sure you can find them easily by googling. Usually you side out the combo agains removal-heavy decks. I never side out cantrips, except for Street Wraith against Burn and the like. You also never side out other creatures, you usually just go up the count against grindy decks. Notice that you don't want too many delve cards as well, so usually Mandrills takes BI place.
Later I can post my sb plans. But specifically on Grixis Delver, it probably plays out like Jund, which is better than Jeskai. Path is a beating, while Terminate is good but costs 2 mana, which makes a huge difference, specially when taking into account Snapcaster. I think the trick is to understand that your threats cost much less than their removal. So you can't just play a single threat each turn, because this let's them use their removal once a turn. Instead, try to Probe and Thoughtseize first to know what you're up against and clear the way, and then drop 2-3 threats in the same turn (ideally Death Shadow and Mandrils), saving Monastery for last. Nacatl turn 1 is also pretty good if you have Mutagenic backup, because they're pretty much forced into bolt it, taking 3 for fetching, and you counter it for free, which adds to the board if next turn you jam 2 more threats. T2 they can have terminate, but you're still bashing with 2 threats.
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Trophyless guy.
Thought of the Month: I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
I swapped my Dismembers for Paths after getting wrecked by RG Tron and double Wurmcoils. The life link from that is hard to overcome. One game I had lethal even trampling over a Wurmcoil, but the life they would have gained kept them alive for the swing back next turn. That was the deciding factor for me. I just wanted some unconditional removal.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
If you had double strike along with trample they don't get to gain life since their Wurmcoil gets killed at first strike damage no?
Correct. Wurmcoil Engine's DT & LL happens in the normal combat step. As long as the DS & Trample is enough to kill it (usually 6) in the first strike step it's DT & LL does not matter.
Orzhov Charm Yes, I usually swap them for my MB dismembers when facing Jund or heavy removal. But I also swap out my Qasali Pridemage since they're nonbo's with my land base (assembling domain and such and want Temple, Crypt instead of Ground, Shrine). So, depends on what I'm playing against. If you need removal and sustain could drop wraiths instead.
So how have you guys been liking Path in the side? I haven't taken it for a spin yet and I'm wondering if it's good. I'm running Helix atm to help combat Burn (keep yourself out of Burn range with a huge Death's Shadow), but I don't think that it's worth siding cards specifically for Burn.
If you had double strike along with trample they don't get to gain life since their Wurmcoil gets killed at first strike damage no?
Correct. Wurmcoil Engine's DT & LL happens in the normal combat step. As long as the DS & Trample is enough to kill it (usually 6) in the first strike step it's DT & LL does not matter.
Well *****. I didn't realize that. Guess I should have won that match then
It was double duty for Burn and Zoo, but yeah. After about a week of trying it out I came to the same conclusion.
Path isn't the greatest card for us on first glance, but it gets any blocker out of the way right then and sets up for a big combo turn, which is pretty sweet. All of the Suicide Zoo decks at the GP were packing 1-2 in the side, which I hadn't seen before.
Just went 5-0 in my LGS, with an traditional lynx list.
And packing 2 paths in the side saved me in several MUs, especially against an Eidolon of Rhetoric against Kiki Chord, allowing me to go for the combo kill. Also cleared some spellskites, and a Kalitas against jund.
The paths are definitely worth it
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So I disagree with Sam Black assessment. I thought some of his sideboarding was questionable as well as hands he kept. When he said he added more instants to the because he was siding out manamorphose a lot I thought this was a mistake. You need to keep your cantrips as much as possible because the deck runs fewer lands and they help you see more cards. More cards means more chances for delirium earlier.
I think the Jund version can be a bit slower but it has some advantages. Spellskite is less effective, better Jund matchup, better Bant Eldrazi matchup. It loses some advantages in other areas but these match ups are tough and swinging them your way a bit helps. Below is the list I'm testing and I may cut a traverse for growth but not sure yet.
Deck: Jund Suicide Zoo.dec
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:18
4 Death's Shadow
4 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Inner-Flame Acolyte
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Street Wraith
Spells:27
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Mutagenic Growth
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Manamorphose
4 Temur Battle Rage
1 Become Immense
Lands:15
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:14
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Spellskite
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Bedlam Reveler
2 Flame Slash
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Tarmogoyf
EDIT:
I was curious about how slow my deck actually is, so I played 20 solitaire games with it, noting what turn I have delirium, what turn I won, what the state of my hand is (Could I have rebuilt should they have killed my alpha strike creature),, whether or not I mulliganed, etc.
So out of 20 games:
Turn 3 Kills: 6
Turn 4 Kills: 9
Turn 5 Kills: 5
So I would venture a guess on being a turn slower on average.
Total of mulligans: 5
3 mulligans to 6, 2 mulligans to 5
4 of the mulligans had turn 5 kills, 1 had a turn 4 kill
Delirium Active:
Turn 1: 1
Turn 2: 7 (1 of these could have had delirium on turn 1)
Turn 3: 8 (2 of these could have had delirium active on turn 2)
Turn 4: 0
Turn 5: 2
This doesn't add up to 20 because I only counted what turn I actually got delirium. If I killed prior to getting delirium, as happened in 2 games, I left it as N/A.
Some notes:
The singleton Become Immense did work, won 3 of my games. In 2 of the games, I traversed before playing BI, tutoring up a DS should my BI not end the game.
11 of the games had a turn 1 or turn 2 thoughtseize. 3 of those had double seize. This might contribute to slowing of the deck, but in an actual game I would run out TS before laying my guy down, hoping to protect him or slow them down enough for him to get work done. Traverse did a lot, Traversing for Ghor-Clan or Street Wraith or even my second land drop, letting me play a turn 2 DS on a shaky mulligan hand. 2 of the turn 5 games had delirium issues, where I needed delirium and couldn't get there until late/never. Oddly, almost all of my mulligans were flooding based, where I felt that with 4 lands I had too little action. It's a bit funny when you think about it though, because at 4 lands I actually have 25% of my decks lands in my opener. While regular decks may keep a 4 land hand, they certainly wouldn't keep a 6 land hand (their equivalent of 25% lands hand). Both tarfire and seal of fire were great helps in turning on delirium, when drawn. Often, though, I could get away with just wraith, git probe, land, mutagenic, letting me hit them for 5 on turn 2 and enabling a traverse into DS. Played a game earlier against some odd heartbeat deck that was trying to stall the board out a bit by using seasons past to reuse explosives. They popped it 3 times killing my Dryad, DS, and Goyf (individually) but hardcasting the singleton rampager let me push through it.
Thats about it.
My H/W list
I played some thing like 200 mtgo matchs with the lynx list.
Then i tried the dryad and slightly increase my game win percentage.
Last Week i played the delirium list from LSV and cant manage to win with.
I made a lot Of mulligan and having delirium was not so Easy. Each game with out delirium, i lost By my self with multiple traverse copies in hand.
After 4 leagues, i get back my traditionnal zooicide list with dryad and made some 5/0 again.
My H/W list
I live for fair Magic.
Legacy: D&T/Lands
Modern: BGx
I still like the deck, I'm just not sure if dredge is not even more powerful overall.
Thought of the Month:
I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
Later I can post my sb plans. But specifically on Grixis Delver, it probably plays out like Jund, which is better than Jeskai. Path is a beating, while Terminate is good but costs 2 mana, which makes a huge difference, specially when taking into account Snapcaster. I think the trick is to understand that your threats cost much less than their removal. So you can't just play a single threat each turn, because this let's them use their removal once a turn. Instead, try to Probe and Thoughtseize first to know what you're up against and clear the way, and then drop 2-3 threats in the same turn (ideally Death Shadow and Mandrils), saving Monastery for last. Nacatl turn 1 is also pretty good if you have Mutagenic backup, because they're pretty much forced into bolt it, taking 3 for fetching, and you counter it for free, which adds to the board if next turn you jam 2 more threats. T2 they can have terminate, but you're still bashing with 2 threats.
Thought of the Month:
I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
But in all seriousness, there's some merit to just linking Magnus Lantto's guide (part 1 and 2) and Sam Black's guide. They're pretty comprehensive.
Linking to those articles and providing a list of videos would be an easy good start.
Yes, but who has the power to do this?!
Correct. Wurmcoil Engine's DT & LL happens in the normal combat step. As long as the DS & Trample is enough to kill it (usually 6) in the first strike step it's DT & LL does not matter.
Orzhov Charm Yes, I usually swap them for my MB dismembers when facing Jund or heavy removal. But I also swap out my Qasali Pridemage since they're nonbo's with my land base (assembling domain and such and want Temple, Crypt instead of Ground, Shrine). So, depends on what I'm playing against. If you need removal and sustain could drop wraiths instead.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
Legacy
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Well *****. I didn't realize that. Guess I should have won that match then
The more you know...
Path isn't the greatest card for us on first glance, but it gets any blocker out of the way right then and sets up for a big combo turn, which is pretty sweet. All of the Suicide Zoo decks at the GP were packing 1-2 in the side, which I hadn't seen before.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
And packing 2 paths in the side saved me in several MUs, especially against an Eidolon of Rhetoric against Kiki Chord, allowing me to go for the combo kill. Also cleared some spellskites, and a Kalitas against jund.
The paths are definitely worth it