Please think about your decision, if you really want to classify the deck based on what colors it contains or based on which type of game it tends to play.
Just my few
PS: maybe you should then divide the Merfolk Thread into mono-U, UB and UW too...
A few things on this.
First, no decisions have been made. We have a Grixis Twin thread temporarily but it can easily be deleted, taken over, or merged as needed. We have had the UWR Twin for months now, and this UR/Rug thread has obviously been going strong since 2012.
Second, the comparison to Merfolk is extremely misleading. Merfolk has always been talked about as one deck, regardless of its splashes. It's also overwhelmingly a mono blue deck; the vast majority of its results are with lists that were strictly mono U or had tiny splashes to enable a few techy cards. The playstyle never changed between those decks apart from small variations in how you conserve mana to play certain spells.
So what I am hearing is that most people want the thread split into at least two different versions: (1) Tempo Twin, which would encompass the UR, RUG, and UBR versions, and (2) All-In Twin, which would include primarily UR Twin but also potentially URB or UWR insofar as those splashes were just to defend the combo and not to advance a tempo gameplan. It's unclear in all of this where lists like Shane McLaren's UWR Kiki Control go, a deck that just plays Kiki/Resto without Twin/Mite/Exarch (my suspicion is that is just a UWR Control deck anyway, and we don't need to worry about it).
I am not a huge fan of the Control Twin route because now we are bleeding into even more archetypes. And yes, archetype bleed is obviously at the core of the issue, but our job isn't just to come up with an all-inclusive definition of deck distinctions in our forum. We just want good deck development to happen in the right threads. In that respect, the Tempo Twin/All In Twin split makes more sense.
3. Why have separate threads? Three reasons. The first is deck identity. Both in play style and card choices, these are all different decks. They use different cards and have slightly different game plans. Although there are similarities between the lists (e.g. RUG Twin and Tasi Twin have a similar-ish tempo route...sort of), those similarities are more than outweighed by the other differences that manifest in the maindeck and sideboard.
The second reason is competitive performance. All of these decks have their own competitive records and are not used interchangeably by players who bring Twin to tournaments. This is similar to how UWR Midrange and UWR Control have their own threads, as with Jund and Junk. Astute forumgoers might notice that BG Rock and Junk are currently sharing a thread, which is a similar situation to why RUG Twin and UR Twin have shared a thread for so long. But as I am going to talk about in a moment, that isn't ideal either.
The final reason for splitting the threads is for discussion quality. If all the Twin threads are in one place, we tend to see less in-depth discussion of decks and more general questions. This is not the high-level conversation that we want to promote in our deck threads, and separating out the archetypes tends to encourage that more rigorous level of analysis and discussion.
4. That brings us to the RUG Twin and UR Twin shared thread. In an ideal world, this thread would NOT be shared at all! There would be two separate threads with two separate primers. This was sort of a relic of an earlier era, and it has grown problematic in discussing all-in Twin, UR tempo twin, and RUG tempo twin. So I am all for hearing ideas on how to further distinguish these threads as we move ahead.
I would support a rug thread in the established forum. that deck is not tier 1 right now. I guess I could spearheaded the thread because it's the deck I am currently playing and not really into the ur version just yet.
Do you envision that as a RUG Twin thread only, or as a RUG Twin and UR Tempo Twin thread?
It might be best to give more individual threads with a bit more laxed policy on splashes unless the deck dives to deep into it. For example UR twin splashing green for Ancient Grudge or a simialr splash for black or white.
On a side note it could be good to make a main thread describing a summery of each version of twin it's pros and con, history, and etc with a link to the specific thread in the post similar to a RP forum version where they had several threads based on needs for specific things. Where they had character thread with each approved character, the general talk thread where people allied and similar stuff concerning the rp, and finally the one where they actually rp'ed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Why is there an actual need for separate threads? If I want to find or discuss the latest twin stuff id rather have one thread.
Great question! I can definitely speak to this.
When we lump all archetypes of a deck into one thread it really dilutes the discussion. It becomes very easy for new players to get involved in that discussion and ask basic questions, but it becomes very frustrating and repetitive for experienced players that want to dive into the nuances of a deck. Ultimately, all threads need to balance accessibility for new players and usefulness for more experienced ones. When it comes to a deck as prolific as Twin, the balance really needs to fall towards the higher-level discussion and not basic questions. When any page of the thread is 3 people talking about RUG Twin, 3 people talking about All In TWin, 3 more people talking about UR Tempo Twin (who should probably be in dialogue with the RUG Twin people), and 3 more people asking a bunch of questions about any of those three options plus UWR and Grixis, it's impossible to develop one deck beyond a certain level. We have seen threads, including this one, devolve into repetitive back-and-forths of incredibly basic questions, which prevents more experienced Modern players and MTGS users from visiting that thread and using it as a place to develop their ideas.
So in the end, a megathread is easy to access but very hard to bring to a high level of discussion. We want players discussing Modern at a high level, and want to organize threads to encourage that.
I think 1 thread is better as well. I switch from UWR, UR, RUB, RUG Twin. Its actually pretty nice to see everything in one place and I think it is beneficial for other Twin players to see that there are other options that exist if UR or RUG Twin does not happen to fit their play-style.
I think 1 thread is better as well. I switch from UWR, UR, RUB, RUG Twin. Its actually pretty nice to see everything in one place and I think it is beneficial for other Twin players to see that there are other options that exist if UR or RUG Twin does not happen to fit their play-style.
This is really not an option on the table. Organizing threads in that way is not going to really help players understand the decks. It will give people a cursory and superficial understanding of the differences but no in-depth development is going to happen towards any single archetype. It's all just going to be too general, which is not the kind of discussion that we want to have happening in Tier 1 and Tier 2 deck threads.
Im in favor of splitting them all up.
Im not really an active member in this thread but I do read it regularly and to be honest all the discussions about the splashes especially Grixis do really take away from the information that I would like to get.
UR is the version with the most results to back it up if Im not mistaken.
Having all these discussions about several different versions in the same thread is just confusing. It's like making a single BG/x Midrange thread where people talk about Jund, Junk, BG Rock and BUG all in the same thread.
It's annoying if you run a version that is proven and has the results to back it up and would like to get good information about it but you have to sift through pages of discussion about stuff that are totally irrelevant to you.
Im in favor of splitting them all up.
Im not really an active member in this thread but I do read it regularly and to be honest all the discussions about the splashes especially Grixis do really take away from the information that I would like to get.
UR is the version with the most results to back it up if Im not mistaken.
Having all these discussions about several different versions in the same thread is just confusing. It's like making a single BG/x Midrange thread where people talk about Jund, Junk, BG Rock and BUG all in the same thread.
It's annoying if you run a version that is proven and has the results to back it up and would like to get good information about it but you have to sift through pages of discussion about stuff that are totally irrelevant to you.
Exactly. This is precisely why there will be no Twin mega thread. The options are for splitting it between colors or for splitting it between playstyles.
Why is there an actual need for separate threads? If I want to find or discuss the latest twin stuff id rather have one thread.
Great question! I can definitely speak to this.
When we lump all archetypes of a deck into one thread it really dilutes the discussion. It becomes very easy for new players to get involved in that discussion and ask basic questions, but it becomes very frustrating and repetitive for experienced players that want to dive into the nuances of a deck. Ultimately, all threads need to balance accessibility for new players and usefulness for more experienced ones. When it comes to a deck as prolific as Twin, the balance really needs to fall towards the higher-level discussion and not basic questions. When any page of the thread is 3 people talking about RUG Twin, 3 people talking about All In TWin, 3 more people talking about UR Tempo Twin (who should probably be in dialogue with the RUG Twin people), and 3 more people asking a bunch of questions about any of those three options plus UWR and Grixis, it's impossible to develop one deck beyond a certain level. We have seen threads, including this one, devolve into repetitive back-and-forths of incredibly basic questions, which prevents more experienced Modern players and MTGS users from visiting that thread and using it as a place to develop their ideas.
So in the end, a megathread is easy to access but very hard to bring to a high level of discussion. We want players discussing Modern at a high level, and want to organize threads to encourage that.
100% this.
I think it's quite an easy split - Tier 1 is UR Twin, Tier 2 is RUG Twin and Developing Competitive is Grixis Twin (per the MTGS spreadsheet). The only reason I can see for not wanting the split is from those who play Grixis/RUG Twin suddenly feeling like they aren't Tier 1.
The variations can be briefly discussed (and I mean briefly - mostly to save OP the effort) in the OP with links to the relevant threads.
They definitely need to be broken up. Color is one of the, if not the, defining characteristics of the game and it seems logical to extend that to the threads. A division along playstyle makes some sense but only as long as the discussion stays within those boundaries. I can easily envision a player, not even a noob, posting a list that deviated just a bit too far from the accepted shell and being told to leave. Maybe they do leave, with or without a page long arguement, only to be told by the new forum to go back to the old because it clearly doesn't belong in the new thread. Yes, a color division may not be best but anything else seems a bit elitist, which is fine I suppose as long as a reasonable policy is clearly set forth. Which of course will be ignored once we're 10+ pgs in.
And is Keranos sided in vs Abzan? I don't think they have an answer for it except TS and maybe 1 SB card.
Also, I'm new, but I like Spellskite. Turn 1 Serum Visions, you need something on Turn 2, either Remand or Spellskite? It helps the combo and dare I say, even Tempo? It gives your Pestermite/Clique and even poor old Snaps a bit of protection if you're stuck on the tempo/alternate beat down plan. Our guys aren't that tough and he helps save them (and us) some damage for only 2 mana. Plus you have random edge vs Splinter Twin, Burn, Boogles and buys a land drop/turn vs Scapeshift?
I cut 'Izzet Charm' (which doesn't seem popular now).
Played my first 4 matches and went 4-0 losing 1 game. Beat Tron very easily (MD Blood Moon), Soul Sisters (learned the hard way you can't win with 2-3 Soul sisters in play!), Boogles (to slow but I misplayed Cryptic Command), and W/r cool deck with value guys and KOR Firewalker maindeck (this thing would eat up a burn deck).
My two cents; don't split it up in to many different threads. I think by playstyle (tempo/ all-in) is best. (and an UWR one)
If there will be a grixis-twin/ tasigur-twin thread, you also have to make one for the tarmo-twin...
They definitely need to be broken up. Color is one of the, if not the, defining characteristics of the game and it seems logical to extend that to the threads. A division along playstyle makes some sense but only as long as the discussion stays within those boundaries. I can easily envision a player, not even a noob, posting a list that deviated just a bit too far from the accepted shell and being told to leave. Maybe they do leave, with or without a page long arguement, only to be told by the new forum to go back to the old because it clearly doesn't belong in the new thread. Yes, a color division may not be best but anything else seems a bit elitist, which is fine I suppose as long as a reasonable policy is clearly set forth. Which of course will be ignored once we're 10+ pgs in.
I think this hits the nail on the head. Even though there will continue to be discussion regarding playstyles within the color specific threads (which is what these threads are all about, anyway), it should curb the "your color splash is not T1, so go start another thread in the Deck Creation forum" argument. I think its the right move for everyone so that each branch can focus solely on their specific deck and get down to the nuts and bolts of tweaking rather than worrying about who should be allowed to post. I, for one will continue to lurk on the threads of all three branches and may even post about card interactions across all archetypes...but I'll be reserving posting decklists to the Grixis Twin thread as that's what my build identifies with.
Something that I've grown to really like in the Burn and Twin threads are the color discussions (e.g. why splash this? and other such comparisons). We don't really see those kinds of discussions in other threads (UR, RUG, etc Delver; Jund and Junk). There are also play-style differences depending on the degree of splash. For example, a more recent version of UWR Twin fit more closely with this deck than the traditional UWR twin in that it only splashed white for the sideboard + a temple bell-ringer. That's closer to straight UR twin than not.
Oh My god, Split it up already. Its now 4 Pages Debatte about that. Can we please get back to Topic?
As my mother always said, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! Spending a few pages right now to just get on the same page about thread organization will save us lots of headaches in a few more months. So at least for now, I think it's good that we still have people weighing in on this so we can make a decision that's good for players and the forum.
Burn: also pretty tough, depends on your number of maindeck counterspells. 60-40 in their favor
I don't really feel that matchup is that tough? Don't get me wrong its not easy either but my experience is its really not that hard to combo off against them (unless they save their bolts) and maybe 60-40 to burn is a little generous. The matchup feels close to even. At least that what it seems to me. Someone posted PT fate reforged results by archtypes and Twin decks went 5-2 against burn.
It's not selfish at all. Wanting to have one concise, organized place to look at ideas for your deck is exactly what this forum is for. It's like saying you're being selfish for not wanting Jund discussion in the Junk thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern URW Control WBG Abzan GRW Burn
EDH GR Rosheen Meanderer
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You could also try going down to 3 Snapcasters to fit in a peek/slash. I've found that four is usually too many.
As for the split, I wouldn't mind if RUG Twin got it's own thread. It would definitely clean up the discussion in here.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
A few things on this.
First, no decisions have been made. We have a Grixis Twin thread temporarily but it can easily be deleted, taken over, or merged as needed. We have had the UWR Twin for months now, and this UR/Rug thread has obviously been going strong since 2012.
Second, the comparison to Merfolk is extremely misleading. Merfolk has always been talked about as one deck, regardless of its splashes. It's also overwhelmingly a mono blue deck; the vast majority of its results are with lists that were strictly mono U or had tiny splashes to enable a few techy cards. The playstyle never changed between those decks apart from small variations in how you conserve mana to play certain spells.
So what I am hearing is that most people want the thread split into at least two different versions: (1) Tempo Twin, which would encompass the UR, RUG, and UBR versions, and (2) All-In Twin, which would include primarily UR Twin but also potentially URB or UWR insofar as those splashes were just to defend the combo and not to advance a tempo gameplan. It's unclear in all of this where lists like Shane McLaren's UWR Kiki Control go, a deck that just plays Kiki/Resto without Twin/Mite/Exarch (my suspicion is that is just a UWR Control deck anyway, and we don't need to worry about it).
I am not a huge fan of the Control Twin route because now we are bleeding into even more archetypes. And yes, archetype bleed is obviously at the core of the issue, but our job isn't just to come up with an all-inclusive definition of deck distinctions in our forum. We just want good deck development to happen in the right threads. In that respect, the Tempo Twin/All In Twin split makes more sense.
It might be best to give more individual threads with a bit more laxed policy on splashes unless the deck dives to deep into it. For example UR twin splashing green for Ancient Grudge or a simialr splash for black or white.
On a side note it could be good to make a main thread describing a summery of each version of twin it's pros and con, history, and etc with a link to the specific thread in the post similar to a RP forum version where they had several threads based on needs for specific things. Where they had character thread with each approved character, the general talk thread where people allied and similar stuff concerning the rp, and finally the one where they actually rp'ed.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Great question! I can definitely speak to this.
When we lump all archetypes of a deck into one thread it really dilutes the discussion. It becomes very easy for new players to get involved in that discussion and ask basic questions, but it becomes very frustrating and repetitive for experienced players that want to dive into the nuances of a deck. Ultimately, all threads need to balance accessibility for new players and usefulness for more experienced ones. When it comes to a deck as prolific as Twin, the balance really needs to fall towards the higher-level discussion and not basic questions. When any page of the thread is 3 people talking about RUG Twin, 3 people talking about All In TWin, 3 more people talking about UR Tempo Twin (who should probably be in dialogue with the RUG Twin people), and 3 more people asking a bunch of questions about any of those three options plus UWR and Grixis, it's impossible to develop one deck beyond a certain level. We have seen threads, including this one, devolve into repetitive back-and-forths of incredibly basic questions, which prevents more experienced Modern players and MTGS users from visiting that thread and using it as a place to develop their ideas.
So in the end, a megathread is easy to access but very hard to bring to a high level of discussion. We want players discussing Modern at a high level, and want to organize threads to encourage that.
hm, snaps is tempo based i think. but try these:-2 skite -1 snap +2 lavaman +1 peek
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Narset, Enlightened Master
Modern
Twin
This is really not an option on the table. Organizing threads in that way is not going to really help players understand the decks. It will give people a cursory and superficial understanding of the differences but no in-depth development is going to happen towards any single archetype. It's all just going to be too general, which is not the kind of discussion that we want to have happening in Tier 1 and Tier 2 deck threads.
Im not really an active member in this thread but I do read it regularly and to be honest all the discussions about the splashes especially Grixis do really take away from the information that I would like to get.
UR is the version with the most results to back it up if Im not mistaken.
Having all these discussions about several different versions in the same thread is just confusing. It's like making a single BG/x Midrange thread where people talk about Jund, Junk, BG Rock and BUG all in the same thread.
It's annoying if you run a version that is proven and has the results to back it up and would like to get good information about it but you have to sift through pages of discussion about stuff that are totally irrelevant to you.
Exactly. This is precisely why there will be no Twin mega thread. The options are for splitting it between colors or for splitting it between playstyles.
100% this.
I think it's quite an easy split - Tier 1 is UR Twin, Tier 2 is RUG Twin and Developing Competitive is Grixis Twin (per the MTGS spreadsheet). The only reason I can see for not wanting the split is from those who play Grixis/RUG Twin suddenly feeling like they aren't Tier 1.
The variations can be briefly discussed (and I mean briefly - mostly to save OP the effort) in the OP with links to the relevant threads.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
And is Keranos sided in vs Abzan? I don't think they have an answer for it except TS and maybe 1 SB card.
Also, I'm new, but I like Spellskite. Turn 1 Serum Visions, you need something on Turn 2, either Remand or Spellskite? It helps the combo and dare I say, even Tempo? It gives your Pestermite/Clique and even poor old Snaps a bit of protection if you're stuck on the tempo/alternate beat down plan. Our guys aren't that tough and he helps save them (and us) some damage for only 2 mana. Plus you have random edge vs Splinter Twin, Burn, Boogles and buys a land drop/turn vs Scapeshift?
I cut 'Izzet Charm' (which doesn't seem popular now).
Played my first 4 matches and went 4-0 losing 1 game. Beat Tron very easily (MD Blood Moon), Soul Sisters (learned the hard way you can't win with 2-3 Soul sisters in play!), Boogles (to slow but I misplayed Cryptic Command), and W/r cool deck with value guys and KOR Firewalker maindeck (this thing would eat up a burn deck).
If there will be a grixis-twin/ tasigur-twin thread, you also have to make one for the tarmo-twin...
I think this hits the nail on the head. Even though there will continue to be discussion regarding playstyles within the color specific threads (which is what these threads are all about, anyway), it should curb the "your color splash is not T1, so go start another thread in the Deck Creation forum" argument. I think its the right move for everyone so that each branch can focus solely on their specific deck and get down to the nuts and bolts of tweaking rather than worrying about who should be allowed to post. I, for one will continue to lurk on the threads of all three branches and may even post about card interactions across all archetypes...but I'll be reserving posting decklists to the Grixis Twin thread as that's what my build identifies with.
For example: abzan, burn, affinity, amulet bloom, fish, etc.
Thanks!
As my mother always said, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! Spending a few pages right now to just get on the same page about thread organization will save us lots of headaches in a few more months. So at least for now, I think it's good that we still have people weighing in on this so we can make a decision that's good for players and the forum.
I don't really feel that matchup is that tough? Don't get me wrong its not easy either but my experience is its really not that hard to combo off against them (unless they save their bolts) and maybe 60-40 to burn is a little generous. The matchup feels close to even. At least that what it seems to me. Someone posted PT fate reforged results by archtypes and Twin decks went 5-2 against burn.
http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/2vnqll/modern_pt_fate_reforged_results_by_archetype/
It's not selfish at all. Wanting to have one concise, organized place to look at ideas for your deck is exactly what this forum is for. It's like saying you're being selfish for not wanting Jund discussion in the Junk thread.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer