@RGCMEX1, glad you're having success with the deck! The only changes I would suggest that I think are absolutely necessary are cutting the Smothers for something else. Smother + Abrupt Decay being your only removal means you are very weak to anything as mundane as a Restoration Angel or similar 4+ CMC threat. There's no advantage to having Smother over something more flexible like Dismember, Slaughter Pact, or even Doomblade assuming card availability was an issue. I would also slide in 2 more dual lands in place of 2 basics, preferably Fetchlands. Drawing double or triple swamp/forest or swamp + Tec Edge is a quick way to ruin an otherwise good hand. Fetches are obviously the best option, but in lieu of that another Woodland Cemetery or something like Llanowar Wastes could work too. Urborg is also a nice addition to any B/G manabase with all the Villages and Tec Edges and fetches.
Aside from those easy fixes, I would steer you away from too many Kitchen Finkses, as there are more diverse threats in my opinion. A planeswalker or two, a Batterskull, or maybe a Thrun would help diversify your threats a bit and provide more resilience in various matches. But Finks is pretty decent right now, fighting the good fight against Delver and Burn I suppose. As you play the deck more, you'll be inclined to tune it to whatever strengths and style you prefer. But BG is certainly still a very solid shell.
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I played an 8 man queue last night with the same 75, went 2-1 loosing the final round to Delver. My rounds were like this:
R1 RUG Delver
R2 Scapeshift
R3 UR Delver
My 3 matches went 2-1, and all my games were close, won or lost by a very small margin (exactly the kind of Magic I like) except the G1 vs RUG Delver where I've got a fast concesion and the G3 in the final vs UR Delver that was being a very close game until he chained a T7 DTT and a T8 TC after that point I extended the game the most I could but I was already lost to his card advantage.
I really liked how the deck responded, but there are some things to consider:
* The 3 decks I played against used one or both of DTT and/or TC.
* I never attacked with the Treetop Villages, It seems that running the full set of those is not the right choice, I will try going to 23 lands with just 2 Villages and +1 Overgrown.
* I games I won VS UR decks is because I had fast clocks to pressure them but I can't think in another fast creature that can pressure them enough, and that are at the same time out of Bolt range.
* What you guys think about Bloodchief Ascension as SB card vs UR tempo decks, it seems strong as all they are running shocklands, so it's possible that you'll only need I attack, and if you handle to get this active it's almost GG vs them.
4 Finks seem to work for me too in my Sultai Rock list. I haven't even thought about Bow of Nylea and Bloodchief Ascension. But, both are very interesting especially Bloodchief Ascension. Ascension might also work against Burn when they cast Eidolon of the Great Revel. You might shock yourself but Eidolon also shocks themselves.
There's no advantage to having Smother over something more flexible like Dismember, Slaughter Pact, or even Doomblade assuming card availability was an issue
I chose Smother because of the games I was expecting, of course we have more flexible options but regarding of how MTGO is changing it might be a better choice Disfigure than any of the other options. Even cards than never had been considerated for the archetype as Mutavault, Bojuka Bog or Quicksand seems more meta oriented than Treetop Village and Tectonic Edge, I'm trying to adapt the deck to MTGO as I just play online.
First, running 4 Scavenging Ooze, 4 Kitchen Finks, and 4 Liliana is a lot of "3-drops", and a lot of cards that are not the greatest in multiples. Scooze is better as a late game card, though obviously with 4 you can run out the first one and not care so much if it dies, but that's still not ideal play, as you want value out of the card whenever possible. In a Delve-infested metagame, I guess I can see the case for running all 4, but you really have to consider it a 3-4 mana card against any Bolt deck most of the time. That competes heavily with the other 3-drops, namely Kitchen Finks. Drawing the first Kitchen Finks is fine, and chaining them together against a Delver opponent who doesn't have Remand is pretty good. But when they start countering your spells, multiple 3-drops gets real clunky, real fast. If you're holding a pile of Finks and Scoozes but are stuck on 3-4 mana, Remand will destroy you. Even without Remand, it can be pretty awkward when you're sitting on multiple Finkses and your opponent is comboing you or casting Restoration Angels or Podding into their own more powerful persist shenanagins, or simply casting Wurmcoil.
I understand that Delver and Burn are all over the place online, but in paper there will still be a lot of diversity. We should reflect that in our builds. If Finks is good, run 2-4 of them, but tune your deck to support it. If Scooze is good, run the set, but don't sacrifice your curve to do so.
Cards like Thrun, Batterskull, Sorin, Garruk, etc. play well against other midrange mirrors, and are more important than a stockpile of lower-impact cards. We are designed to get to the late game in a lot of matchups, and we need a couple haymakers to support that plan. Finks is great in some scenarios, but is often an underwhelming 3/2 for 3 against non-interactive decks, or a simple chump blocker when your opponent is going bigger than you.
As far as the other cards go, I do like Bow of Nylea, but not maindeck. The synergy with Finks is nice, but again it's ANOTHER 3-drop that can be very unexciting by itself.
Bloodchief Ascension is not the type of card we are looking for, even if we could consistently activate it, which we can't. Drown in Sorrow and similar effects are the best way to combat Delver (and to a lesser extent, Burn). Kill all their creatures and they have a lot less power in the deck. Drown mops up their entire team, barring Prowess triggers, and catches you up from behind. Bow is pretty good in the matchup too, though you only want 1 copy and it is sometimes low-impact. Thrun is pretty nuts against them, and Scooze does shine too here of course. It's really just the full playset of Finks that makes me cringe a little. If your meta is all Delver and Burn though, it's obviously a fine meta call.
I wouldn't cut any lands below 24, and I wouldn't cut Treetop either. You might not use/need them against Delver or other fast decks, but they do a lot of work in the grindier matchups, and against slow starts from Tron, Scapeshift, etc.
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HomelandZecurity:
Yeah I know what you are saying and for sure it's not the build I would play in a healthy meta, but online the games are rarely going beyond turn 6 so technically turn 4 is "the late game", and I want to be prepared for Dailies where I'll face 2-3 round of UR Delver/Burn matches, even at the cost of running low efficiency cards, since KOT was released I hadn't faced Tron or traditional UWR builds on daily events, why would I be prepared for that? If Burn and Delver have already shaped the meta why wolud BGx should remain trying to be catch-all deck, yes of course BG shell has responses for everything but we need to adapt it to the meta wich according what I 've seen the last 2 weeks is:
* Burn
* Delver
* Scapeshift
* Affinity
* Twin
Four of those archetypes are using TC and/or DTT
Four of those can get consistent turn 4 kills
So most of the time we can cast Batterskull the turn before the game is over.
I don't like this meta for sure but it's how's KOT have changed Modern a much faster format, where Midrange is almost gone.
Fair enough. I didn't know for sure if you were online or in paper. If you're metagaming, then it's what you have to do to get a winning record, and thus it's obviously fine to skew your deck in one direction.
I would still recommend switching out your Smothers, possibly just for Disfigure/Dismember and skip the Pacts. I still generally like one Pact as a gotcha against Twin and other decks, and as a way to come from behind when you're trying to answer everything.
As for your board, Thragtusk could probably become the Bow of Nylea (gains as much life in as much time against Burn, comes down much sooner, and is VERY good against Affinity), and the Creeping Corrosion could probably become another less narrow card, such as the 2nd Drown in Sorrow. Or it could just be Damnation, which I still like against against any creature deck, as well as against the mirror.
Also consider splashing white for Siege Rhino. I hear it's pretty good.
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Here are my insights while using a Sultai Rock list. I cut Bob due to excessive lifeloss and splashed blue for Treasure Cruise.
To be honest, I don't think Scooze is a good card in a delving meta. As a "3drop" its effect is not as impactful as compared to Finks. In my battles with Burn and Delver, Scooze has nothing to exile as the GY is Cruised away and it just remains a bear. But, I still put 2 of them as a mana sink when I have remaining green mana during their turn. Might as well delay them a bit in their delving.
As of now, I don't think Dismember is a good card in the meta. Well, I limited all my life loss cards at the moment. In fact, I cut Bob and splashed Blue for Cruise, increased more IoK and decreased my Thoughtseizes... etc.
Instead of Drown in Sorrow, I use Golgari Charm. I find it more flexible and useful in many match-ups. These include the following: Jeskai Ascendancy, Affinity, UR Delver (Young Pyro, Delver), Burn (Eidolon) and Twin (Splinter Twin). I have one in my SB though.
So far, my list is doing well. My most difficult match-up is still Burn.
i'm just wondering, with all this cruise madness going around.. would it be wise to sideboard 2-3 relic of progenitus just simply to deal with their graveyard to prevent any cruising ? i know it seems too specific to be good but well, it help deal with some other graveyard strategy as well ? so i'm thinkin of putting this instead of Grafdigger Cage for a tournament in my store..
also on top of that, i wanted to know, is The cruise vs Bob, which one should we keep? i know that Cruise is a non-bo with Tarmogoyf and since opponent will try cruise their way in as well.. goyf wouldn't be as big as it should ?
i'm just wondering, with all this cruise madness going around.. would it be wise to sideboard 2-3 relic of progenitus just simply to deal with their graveyard to prevent any cruising ? i know it seems too specific to be good but well, it help deal with some other graveyard strategy as well ? so i'm thinkin of putting this instead of Grafdigger Cage for a tournament in my store..
I'm currently playing 4 Bojuka Bog Main deck instead of the 4 Tectonic Edge I was running, Online Tron and UWR are almost gone so I think that's more relevant to have a proactive answer to TC and DTT, and also It can help to hose some random tier 2 decks like Dredge, Living End, or Storm.
Scooze is still fine. Sure, it's lame when you draw him after your opponent eats his graveyard via Cruise or whatever, but on the flip side he also can keep them off of casting those spells at all if you resolve him in time. You also still have your own graveyard to eat, assuming you're not running Delve spells yourself. Against U/R Delver, Scooze needs to come down early or it does risk being a dead card or too slow to catch up, but acting as an extra Tarmogoyf AND being able to regain life all while eating up their precious Delve or Snap targets is a big game. Against Dig Through Time decks it's even more relevant, as they often still use Snapcaster and will generally be attempting to Dig at a later point in the game.
I would still only play 3 Scooze maindeck, and probably would consider the full set of 8 discard spells to help support him. I'm also pretty sure that in this meta, Lightning Bolt is a bit necessary to keep pace with the faster decks, so I would consider switching back to Jund. But in any case, Scooze is still very playable. Remember that he will always come down before Cruise (assuming you both draw them before turn 2), and if you play it correctly, he can keep Cruise at bay for the rest of the game.
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@RCMEX1, I played against you the other day on modo and I just wanted to say that I really agree with HomelandZecurity over most of the points he's making. The things you're doing with the deck do not contribute to its game plan in the slightest, only make it muddled and confused. You're playing an attrition deck against four maindeck draw-threes, which is a terrible plan, so you're trying to fix the issue by playing random cards like 4x Bojuka Bog and, Lord forgive me, Bloodchief Ascension. If your deck is so poorly positioned that you're inbreeding it that badly, it's time to play a different deck instead. Things like Bojuka Bog are not just 1-for-1 replacements for Tec Edge. They're different cards with different roles. Just because you never attack with more than two Treetops doesn't mean that you should stop running four. And Bob is really bad in the format right now, get that out of your deck.
@Colonel Nohman, why Sultai Charm? A three mana removal spell in the meta we have is way too slow. Run a 2/1 split of Disfigure/Darkblast. Why are you running your fetchlands such that you can only fetch basic forest with four of eight fetches? You need Misty Rainforests. I don't think the deck can support 2 snap casters - 0 or 1. You're playing Goyf Cruise and Scooze as it is, you can't stretch your GY that far by playing multiple snapcasters.
Not a fan of snapcaster in these sultai lists. None of the cards are that good to flashback. If you flashback inquisition they likely have emptied their hand of cheap/good cards. Flashing back Thoughtseize is a ton of life. Flashing back the removal spells is fine. But none of the cards you flash back are very efficient and this deck can't leverage the 2/1 body since it's a slow deck at pressing the opponent's life total.
Also sultai gets rolled over by affinity, burn and blood moon. Yeah you can keep up with the card drawing of other blue decks, but you're a dog to other decks still. I don't see any compelling reason to stay 3 colors.
Another problem with treasure cruise is that since you cut bob for cruise you're threat light (Edel's version had this problem too). Too often you will cruise into air.
I think a heavier blue splash should be looked into for DTT.
I just went for GPT Milan 2015 today with my BG deck, actually it's a traditional core with 4 x Treasure Cruise and 1 Watery Grave, 1 Breeding Pool and 1 Thornwood Falls for the blue land base.. the deck list is below:
short report is as follows:
Round 1: Infect Discard (1 - 0)
G1: In this match since he did a lot of discard, Treasure Cruise really shine. His deck was filled with many discards cards like Inquisition, Wrench Mind, Raven's Crime, Funeral Charm (just like 8Rack) then finish with Inkmoth Nexus and Phyrexian Vatmother. i get all my spot removal on time and hit him with Goyf for the win. In this match Cruise went off 3 times and it's really epic (1st delve for 7, 2nd delve for 5, 3rd delve for 3)
G2: I swapped 2 Inquisition for 2 Darkblast to handle the Inkmoth. This game went faster than G1, i hit his hand with early Inquisition and removed his spot removal. Then swing with Treetop and Goyf for the win. Cruise went off once and give me all the answer i need.
Round 2: GW Hatebear (1 - 1)
G1: This match drag very long, his deck has Gavony, with many Finks, Ooze, Restoration, Loxodon Smiter, Blade Splicer. So it went bad initially when i discard with Liliana. I already had 2 Goyf, Courser, Finks and 2 Treetop in play. In the end, after certain combat calculation and Abrupt Decay i manage to start killing off his creature one by one and i swing with 2 Treetop and a Goyf. (Cruise helped in late game and find me 2 Abrupt Decay)
G2: I sideboarded Damnation and Darkblast in. I started the game quick with Ooze and Tarmo. But then on turn 3 he drops a Mirran Crusader and he had already had a Gavony Town and a birds. He got me down to around 8 then i hit the board with Damnation. Then he drops another Mirran Crusader and i lost.
G3: He kept a Tectonic Edge and an Aether Vial land with Birds, Resto, Mirran Crusader. I inquisition for the Aether vial to hoping he screwed his land. Apparently he didn't, he then drew a Forest, drop birds. Then he drop a turn 2 Mirran Crusader plus Rest in Peace making my goyf a 0/1 and i lost the game again.
Round 3: Mono Red Burn (2 - 1)
G1: The game went standard with Goblin Guide and i drew a land card for the two turn he hit with Guide. Then I drop a turn 2 Ooze then he kill it, then i drop turn 3 Courser, and followed with Finks then with Goyf. I didn't spend any spell to kill guide but Courser really helps with the life gain.
G2: I sideboarded out all Toughtseize and replace it with Extirpate. So he drop a first turn Vexing Devil and i take 4, i then uses Inquisition to pick his Eidolon. Followed with Extirpate the Eidolon. Then Courser drew me 3 lands from the library and then he's out of his hand then i cast my Goyf and then beat for the win. Cruise didn't came out in this match
then we went for a Top 4 match
Round 4: UR Twin Exarch (3 - 1)
G1: i kept a SLaughter Pact hand. then on turn 3 i cast an Ooze then at the end step he drop an Exarch, then he cast Twin and luckily i had the Pact and kill the Exarch. Then when he tapped out i drop a Goyf. Then I beat for the win.
G2: I sideboarded Torpor Orbs and Extirpates.. He drop an early Blood Moon when i have no basic land, i completely forgotten about Blood moon and i kept an all nonbasic hand with Breeding Pool, Overgrown Tomb and Urborg. well.. i managed to drop a Torpor Orb.. but he bounce it to hand with Echoing Truth then it end pretty badly afterwards with him droping Exarch at end of turn then drop Splinter Twin the next turn.
G3: I kept 2 Abrupt Decay hand with 3 Fetchland. I crack a fetch for a Swamp and inquisition-ed his Exarch and he had only Serum Vision in his hand. Next turn a crack a fetch for Forest. It went pretty smoothly afterwards, i played the game really defensively. Removed 1 Pestermite and 1 Exarch afterwards, then he kept drawing non-land and his land stuck at 3 land. When he drop his forth, I Tectonic Edge his Steam Vents. Then he stuck with 3 cards in hand and 3 land until end of the game.
Final: Affinity (4 - 1)
G1: lost bad time with nothing only lands in play and he drop his hand on 2nd turn.
G2: in Creeping Corrosion, Darkblast and Damnations.. he started with Skirge and i darkblasted it. Dredge my Darkblast for the next threat it went off quite fast since he didn't get Thoughtcast and i dropped a Goyf
G3: game went similarly with 2nd game actually and i swing for the win with Finks
overall i must say i'm pretty happy with the performance of the deck. I know it's suboptimal with the lack of Polluted Delta or Misty Rainforest and an Island. since i don't have the blue-base fetchland.. i think i'll get the Delta since it's the cheapest around that suitable with the color.. and i'm quite amazed with the sheer power of the card, until Cruise gets a "penalty-card" from Wizard, i think i'm going to stop using Bob for a while
For the flex spot in your sideboard I'd go with drown in sorrow. It takes out edilon, delver, swiftspear and it lets you scr 1. It's also very good against affinity.
I'd cut a thoughtseize MB. It's bad against burn and delver, and I think that 6 discard cards are enough. It's also a bad topdeck. bow of Nylea is the card you want against burn and delver. I also like to run a maelstrom pulse MB as a catch all that also takes out lingering souls. I think you can cut a dismember for it.
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Modern
JundBGR
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Pauper
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Commander
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Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
although Thoughtseize is definitely a bad top deck, imo i like the versatility of it.. and so far for me in my local store we have 1 Delver and 1 Burn, so far Courser and Finks are enough to hold them off and stabilize while for Delver i side boarded in Darkblast for the removal (as it kill all the creatures in Delver just for 1 mana)
It's 4 mana to a 4/5 trample body and a lightning helix in the opponent face!
There is no doubt that Siege Rhino is solid in a burn heavy meta. We have to ask the question of if we are in the market for any kind of a 4 drop. Part of what makes Siege Rhino so good is being able to play them back to back implying you would play at least 3 in your list. I haven't had 3+ copies of 4cc+ cards in my list for quite awhile unless I'm postboard vs control or scapeshift.
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Find something, Live For it, Fight for it, Die for it. Then it might get passed on the the next generation.
It's 4 mana to a 4/5 trample body and a lightning helix in the opponent face!
There is no doubt that Siege Rhino is solid in a burn heavy meta. We have to ask the question of if we are in the market for any kind of a 4 drop. Part of what makes Siege Rhino so good is being able to play them back to back implying you would play at least 3 in your list. I haven't had 3+ copies of 4cc+ cards in my list for quite awhile unless I'm postboard vs control or scapeshift.
at's a good point, But the BGx's decks are not very well positioned right now, I think we need to rethink our decks to combat Burns and Delvers.
Speed up the Rhinos is a good way to to put a nice beater in the field and recovery some life, but to speed up it them we need manadorks and probably they are going to be burned. I saw some 4C gifts decks trading Bird's for Sylvan Caryatide to block Guides and Swiftspears.
PS: I'm very bad in deck building, so probably this is just a pile of nothing!
It makes a lot easier to look at your deck if it was formatted by cmc or spelltype instead of just a huge blob.
I went back to straight up BG last week to see how it held up in the current meta.
Burn has no way to deal with a resolved Phyrexian Obliterator
4 MD bob is just too much with so many aggro/burn strategies, slim down to 2 MD 2 SB
We still need card advantage, shove courser back in
Need more lifegain than just courser, add Bow and kitchen finks
It still needs work, but kitchen finks+bow does a lot of work against the current meta.
Once ive hammered out a list a bit more that im happy with Ill post it- right not is basically just obliterator rock -2 bob +bow/finks
I like pulse b/c it helps you catch up against the double delver play or early yp that gets to make a lot of tokens.
Engineered explosives should be somewhere in your list.
A flipped delver is 0cmc, so you can wipe delvers and tokens at the same time *and* dodge remand hitting your removal.
3 surgical is a lot, its a horrible top deck and really only good for taking treasure cruise, which is ineffective when you're siding out any number of thoughtseize
I'd rather keep In Thoughtseize and at worse take a lightning bolt and gain a life (though the tempo then get there is probably worth it to them)
So far ive liked Nihil spellbomb as a 1of against them
I just crack it in response to a snap or them getting cruise mana online. Late game as a top deck it atleast cycles pretty painlessly.
Defense grid seems like a waste of a slot to side in, id rather have lily or courser at 3cmc or another thrun.
Courser seems good because it gums up swiftspear and yp swings and can give us enough life to stabilize
Aside from those easy fixes, I would steer you away from too many Kitchen Finkses, as there are more diverse threats in my opinion. A planeswalker or two, a Batterskull, or maybe a Thrun would help diversify your threats a bit and provide more resilience in various matches. But Finks is pretty decent right now, fighting the good fight against Delver and Burn I suppose. As you play the deck more, you'll be inclined to tune it to whatever strengths and style you prefer. But BG is certainly still a very solid shell.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
R1 RUG Delver
R2 Scapeshift
R3 UR Delver
My 3 matches went 2-1, and all my games were close, won or lost by a very small margin (exactly the kind of Magic I like) except the G1 vs RUG Delver where I've got a fast concesion and the G3 in the final vs UR Delver that was being a very close game until he chained a T7 DTT and a T8 TC after that point I extended the game the most I could but I was already lost to his card advantage.
I really liked how the deck responded, but there are some things to consider:
* The 3 decks I played against used one or both of DTT and/or TC.
* I never attacked with the Treetop Villages, It seems that running the full set of those is not the right choice, I will try going to 23 lands with just 2 Villages and +1 Overgrown.
* I games I won VS UR decks is because I had fast clocks to pressure them but I can't think in another fast creature that can pressure them enough, and that are at the same time out of Bolt range.
* What you guys think about Bloodchief Ascension as SB card vs UR tempo decks, it seems strong as all they are running shocklands, so it's possible that you'll only need I attack, and if you handle to get this active it's almost GG vs them.
*
I chose Smother because of the games I was expecting, of course we have more flexible options but regarding of how MTGO is changing it might be a better choice Disfigure than any of the other options. Even cards than never had been considerated for the archetype as Mutavault, Bojuka Bog or Quicksand seems more meta oriented than Treetop Village and Tectonic Edge, I'm trying to adapt the deck to MTGO as I just play online.
First, running 4 Scavenging Ooze, 4 Kitchen Finks, and 4 Liliana is a lot of "3-drops", and a lot of cards that are not the greatest in multiples. Scooze is better as a late game card, though obviously with 4 you can run out the first one and not care so much if it dies, but that's still not ideal play, as you want value out of the card whenever possible. In a Delve-infested metagame, I guess I can see the case for running all 4, but you really have to consider it a 3-4 mana card against any Bolt deck most of the time. That competes heavily with the other 3-drops, namely Kitchen Finks. Drawing the first Kitchen Finks is fine, and chaining them together against a Delver opponent who doesn't have Remand is pretty good. But when they start countering your spells, multiple 3-drops gets real clunky, real fast. If you're holding a pile of Finks and Scoozes but are stuck on 3-4 mana, Remand will destroy you. Even without Remand, it can be pretty awkward when you're sitting on multiple Finkses and your opponent is comboing you or casting Restoration Angels or Podding into their own more powerful persist shenanagins, or simply casting Wurmcoil.
I understand that Delver and Burn are all over the place online, but in paper there will still be a lot of diversity. We should reflect that in our builds. If Finks is good, run 2-4 of them, but tune your deck to support it. If Scooze is good, run the set, but don't sacrifice your curve to do so.
Cards like Thrun, Batterskull, Sorin, Garruk, etc. play well against other midrange mirrors, and are more important than a stockpile of lower-impact cards. We are designed to get to the late game in a lot of matchups, and we need a couple haymakers to support that plan. Finks is great in some scenarios, but is often an underwhelming 3/2 for 3 against non-interactive decks, or a simple chump blocker when your opponent is going bigger than you.
As far as the other cards go, I do like Bow of Nylea, but not maindeck. The synergy with Finks is nice, but again it's ANOTHER 3-drop that can be very unexciting by itself.
Bloodchief Ascension is not the type of card we are looking for, even if we could consistently activate it, which we can't. Drown in Sorrow and similar effects are the best way to combat Delver (and to a lesser extent, Burn). Kill all their creatures and they have a lot less power in the deck. Drown mops up their entire team, barring Prowess triggers, and catches you up from behind. Bow is pretty good in the matchup too, though you only want 1 copy and it is sometimes low-impact. Thrun is pretty nuts against them, and Scooze does shine too here of course. It's really just the full playset of Finks that makes me cringe a little. If your meta is all Delver and Burn though, it's obviously a fine meta call.
I'd recommend these changes RGC:
-4 Smother
-1 Kitchen Finks
-1 Forest
-1 Swamp
-2 Woodland Cemetery
-1 Overgrown Tomb
+2 Slaughter Pact
+1 Dismember
+1 Disfigure
+1 Thrun
+4 Marsh Flats
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I wouldn't cut any lands below 24, and I wouldn't cut Treetop either. You might not use/need them against Delver or other fast decks, but they do a lot of work in the grindier matchups, and against slow starts from Tron, Scapeshift, etc.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Yeah I know what you are saying and for sure it's not the build I would play in a healthy meta, but online the games are rarely going beyond turn 6 so technically turn 4 is "the late game", and I want to be prepared for Dailies where I'll face 2-3 round of UR Delver/Burn matches, even at the cost of running low efficiency cards, since KOT was released I hadn't faced Tron or traditional UWR builds on daily events, why would I be prepared for that? If Burn and Delver have already shaped the meta why wolud BGx should remain trying to be catch-all deck, yes of course BG shell has responses for everything but we need to adapt it to the meta wich according what I 've seen the last 2 weeks is:
* Burn
* Delver
* Scapeshift
* Affinity
* Twin
Four of those archetypes are using TC and/or DTT
Four of those can get consistent turn 4 kills
So most of the time we can cast Batterskull the turn before the game is over.
I don't like this meta for sure but it's how's KOT have changed Modern a much faster format, where Midrange is almost gone.
I would still recommend switching out your Smothers, possibly just for Disfigure/Dismember and skip the Pacts. I still generally like one Pact as a gotcha against Twin and other decks, and as a way to come from behind when you're trying to answer everything.
As for your board, Thragtusk could probably become the Bow of Nylea (gains as much life in as much time against Burn, comes down much sooner, and is VERY good against Affinity), and the Creeping Corrosion could probably become another less narrow card, such as the 2nd Drown in Sorrow. Or it could just be Damnation, which I still like against against any creature deck, as well as against the mirror.
Also consider splashing white for Siege Rhino. I hear it's pretty good.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
To be honest, I don't think Scooze is a good card in a delving meta. As a "3drop" its effect is not as impactful as compared to Finks. In my battles with Burn and Delver, Scooze has nothing to exile as the GY is Cruised away and it just remains a bear. But, I still put 2 of them as a mana sink when I have remaining green mana during their turn. Might as well delay them a bit in their delving.
As of now, I don't think Dismember is a good card in the meta. Well, I limited all my life loss cards at the moment. In fact, I cut Bob and splashed Blue for Cruise, increased more IoK and decreased my Thoughtseizes... etc.
Instead of Drown in Sorrow, I use Golgari Charm. I find it more flexible and useful in many match-ups. These include the following: Jeskai Ascendancy, Affinity, UR Delver (Young Pyro, Delver), Burn (Eidolon) and Twin (Splinter Twin). I have one in my SB though.
So far, my list is doing well. My most difficult match-up is still Burn.
also on top of that, i wanted to know, is The cruise vs Bob, which one should we keep? i know that Cruise is a non-bo with Tarmogoyf and since opponent will try cruise their way in as well.. goyf wouldn't be as big as it should ?
I'm currently playing 4 Bojuka Bog Main deck instead of the 4 Tectonic Edge I was running, Online Tron and UWR are almost gone so I think that's more relevant to have a proactive answer to TC and DTT, and also It can help to hose some random tier 2 decks like Dredge, Living End, or Storm.
I would still only play 3 Scooze maindeck, and probably would consider the full set of 8 discard spells to help support him. I'm also pretty sure that in this meta, Lightning Bolt is a bit necessary to keep pace with the faster decks, so I would consider switching back to Jund. But in any case, Scooze is still very playable. Remember that he will always come down before Cruise (assuming you both draw them before turn 2), and if you play it correctly, he can keep Cruise at bay for the rest of the game.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
@Colonel Nohman, why Sultai Charm? A three mana removal spell in the meta we have is way too slow. Run a 2/1 split of Disfigure/Darkblast. Why are you running your fetchlands such that you can only fetch basic forest with four of eight fetches? You need Misty Rainforests. I don't think the deck can support 2 snap casters - 0 or 1. You're playing Goyf Cruise and Scooze as it is, you can't stretch your GY that far by playing multiple snapcasters.
Also sultai gets rolled over by affinity, burn and blood moon. Yeah you can keep up with the card drawing of other blue decks, but you're a dog to other decks still. I don't see any compelling reason to stay 3 colors.
Another problem with treasure cruise is that since you cut bob for cruise you're threat light (Edel's version had this problem too). Too often you will cruise into air.
I think a heavier blue splash should be looked into for DTT.
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Treetop Village
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
Non-Creature (21)
1 Batterskull
2 Victim of Night
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Extirpate
2 Damnation
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Torpor Orb
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Darkblast
short report is as follows:
Round 1: Infect Discard (1 - 0)
G1: In this match since he did a lot of discard, Treasure Cruise really shine. His deck was filled with many discards cards like Inquisition, Wrench Mind, Raven's Crime, Funeral Charm (just like 8Rack) then finish with Inkmoth Nexus and Phyrexian Vatmother. i get all my spot removal on time and hit him with Goyf for the win. In this match Cruise went off 3 times and it's really epic (1st delve for 7, 2nd delve for 5, 3rd delve for 3)
G2: I swapped 2 Inquisition for 2 Darkblast to handle the Inkmoth. This game went faster than G1, i hit his hand with early Inquisition and removed his spot removal. Then swing with Treetop and Goyf for the win. Cruise went off once and give me all the answer i need.
Round 2: GW Hatebear (1 - 1)
G1: This match drag very long, his deck has Gavony, with many Finks, Ooze, Restoration, Loxodon Smiter, Blade Splicer. So it went bad initially when i discard with Liliana. I already had 2 Goyf, Courser, Finks and 2 Treetop in play. In the end, after certain combat calculation and Abrupt Decay i manage to start killing off his creature one by one and i swing with 2 Treetop and a Goyf. (Cruise helped in late game and find me 2 Abrupt Decay)
G2: I sideboarded Damnation and Darkblast in. I started the game quick with Ooze and Tarmo. But then on turn 3 he drops a Mirran Crusader and he had already had a Gavony Town and a birds. He got me down to around 8 then i hit the board with Damnation. Then he drops another Mirran Crusader and i lost.
G3: He kept a Tectonic Edge and an Aether Vial land with Birds, Resto, Mirran Crusader. I inquisition for the Aether vial to hoping he screwed his land. Apparently he didn't, he then drew a Forest, drop birds. Then he drop a turn 2 Mirran Crusader plus Rest in Peace making my goyf a 0/1 and i lost the game again.
Round 3: Mono Red Burn (2 - 1)
G1: The game went standard with Goblin Guide and i drew a land card for the two turn he hit with Guide. Then I drop a turn 2 Ooze then he kill it, then i drop turn 3 Courser, and followed with Finks then with Goyf. I didn't spend any spell to kill guide but Courser really helps with the life gain.
G2: I sideboarded out all Toughtseize and replace it with Extirpate. So he drop a first turn Vexing Devil and i take 4, i then uses Inquisition to pick his Eidolon. Followed with Extirpate the Eidolon. Then Courser drew me 3 lands from the library and then he's out of his hand then i cast my Goyf and then beat for the win. Cruise didn't came out in this match
then we went for a Top 4 match
Round 4: UR Twin Exarch (3 - 1)
G1: i kept a SLaughter Pact hand. then on turn 3 i cast an Ooze then at the end step he drop an Exarch, then he cast Twin and luckily i had the Pact and kill the Exarch. Then when he tapped out i drop a Goyf. Then I beat for the win.
G2: I sideboarded Torpor Orbs and Extirpates.. He drop an early Blood Moon when i have no basic land, i completely forgotten about Blood moon and i kept an all nonbasic hand with Breeding Pool, Overgrown Tomb and Urborg. well.. i managed to drop a Torpor Orb.. but he bounce it to hand with Echoing Truth then it end pretty badly afterwards with him droping Exarch at end of turn then drop Splinter Twin the next turn.
G3: I kept 2 Abrupt Decay hand with 3 Fetchland. I crack a fetch for a Swamp and inquisition-ed his Exarch and he had only Serum Vision in his hand. Next turn a crack a fetch for Forest. It went pretty smoothly afterwards, i played the game really defensively. Removed 1 Pestermite and 1 Exarch afterwards, then he kept drawing non-land and his land stuck at 3 land. When he drop his forth, I Tectonic Edge his Steam Vents. Then he stuck with 3 cards in hand and 3 land until end of the game.
Final: Affinity (4 - 1)
G1: lost bad time with nothing only lands in play and he drop his hand on 2nd turn.
G2: in Creeping Corrosion, Darkblast and Damnations.. he started with Skirge and i darkblasted it. Dredge my Darkblast for the next threat it went off quite fast since he didn't get Thoughtcast and i dropped a Goyf
G3: game went similarly with 2nd game actually and i swing for the win with Finks
overall i must say i'm pretty happy with the performance of the deck. I know it's suboptimal with the lack of Polluted Delta or Misty Rainforest and an Island. since i don't have the blue-base fetchland.. i think i'll get the Delta since it's the cheapest around that suitable with the color.. and i'm quite amazed with the sheer power of the card, until Cruise gets a "penalty-card" from Wizard, i think i'm going to stop using Bob for a while
I'd cut a thoughtseize MB. It's bad against burn and delver, and I think that 6 discard cards are enough. It's also a bad topdeck. bow of Nylea is the card you want against burn and delver. I also like to run a maelstrom pulse MB as a catch all that also takes out lingering souls. I think you can cut a dismember for it.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
There is no doubt that Siege Rhino is solid in a burn heavy meta. We have to ask the question of if we are in the market for any kind of a 4 drop. Part of what makes Siege Rhino so good is being able to play them back to back implying you would play at least 3 in your list. I haven't had 3+ copies of 4cc+ cards in my list for quite awhile unless I'm postboard vs control or scapeshift.
Probably the lingering souls, since the spell is pretty horrible in the current metagame outside of affinity.
It makes a lot easier to look at your deck if it was formatted by cmc or spelltype instead of just a huge blob.
I went back to straight up BG last week to see how it held up in the current meta.
Burn has no way to deal with a resolved Phyrexian Obliterator
4 MD bob is just too much with so many aggro/burn strategies, slim down to 2 MD 2 SB
We still need card advantage, shove courser back in
Need more lifegain than just courser, add Bow and kitchen finks
It still needs work, but kitchen finks+bow does a lot of work against the current meta.
Once ive hammered out a list a bit more that im happy with Ill post it- right not is basically just obliterator rock -2 bob +bow/finks
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Engineered explosives should be somewhere in your list.
A flipped delver is 0cmc, so you can wipe delvers and tokens at the same time *and* dodge remand hitting your removal.
3 surgical is a lot, its a horrible top deck and really only good for taking treasure cruise, which is ineffective when you're siding out any number of thoughtseize
I'd rather keep In Thoughtseize and at worse take a lightning bolt and gain a life (though the tempo then get there is probably worth it to them)
So far ive liked Nihil spellbomb as a 1of against them
I just crack it in response to a snap or them getting cruise mana online. Late game as a top deck it atleast cycles pretty painlessly.
Defense grid seems like a waste of a slot to side in, id rather have lily or courser at 3cmc or another thrun.
Courser seems good because it gums up swiftspear and yp swings and can give us enough life to stabilize
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains