Well Manamorphose's purpose is not only to cast your white sources but also to dig deeper into the deck and have more spells in the yard for more consistant revelers. By getting to draw a card you will also more likely draw into reveler in the first place. However, it gets a bit sketchy when you don't necessarily want to spend the 2 mana right away. Although Manamorphose is an instant and you can also just hold onto Manamorphose, I think you most of the time would want to cantrip right away though. Especially if you could find a needed threat for example. With Thalia as a popular card in the Humans deck Manamorphose is indeed sometimes more a pain than a benefit. That makes me lean towards not running many copies of Manamorphose, since Thalia already hurts us quite a bit. Humans is a good matchup, but with Thalia on board our advantage of efficiency is sometimes nullified.
I have to say I can't decide on a perfect list at the moment. I have some personal bullet points I am quite certain of (like running 20 lands and 2 LoTV maindeck) but some flex slots are still bothering me to some extend.
I came to the conclusion that we can skimp on Tron hate for now. Tron gets punished by Hollow One and faster aggro decks, which allows us to free up some SB slots. I am no longer playing 4-5 dedicated cards for Tron due to this. Instead I cut my Molten Rains completely and just play 2 BM as leftover tool for now. Its not the best, but I think its sufficient right now. This can surely change again though.
4 Leyline is what I will try also going onward. I personally like Spellbomb quite a bit, and I stated that, but Hollow One not being able to deal with it really makes my rethinking Leyline as a whole. I will give it a try for now.
I am also pro 2-3 sweeper in the SB now, with 2 of them being EE for sure. Its good against Bogles (which already did see some paly again) and Humans, as well as Elves, which is a deck that could potentially fall under the radar since it has actually good Hollow One and Human matchups. I am on 2 EE and 1 Anger atm.
Magma Spray is a neat card which I liked from Team Pamplemousse. I like it against the top decks in the format right now. I am testing 1 copy in the side.
I am really glad you posted this because I have been monitoring variants of the deck closely from as many valid sources as possible. I have noticed this player Andreas_Mueller and it's also interesting it was switched from the name above(maybe requested it?) Up until today, this list ran a Nahiri Fatal Push Heavy Moonless mainboard and they made 4 changes to the sideboard between challenges. Between the last two Challenges, the majority remains the same but one notable Mainboard change was Liliana the last hope, which was also the PW at GP Hartsford. The sideboard was changes +2 Blood Moon, +1 Nahiri, -1 Leyline of the Void, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Rabble.
I have to agree that this particular player seems to be making the best weekly adjustments to the meta. On a separate note, would anyone mind sharing strategy/sequencing/timing to maintain tempo. As an example, I have played the deck a ton and this is not a 3 turn suicide death's shadow issue lol but I seem to be 50/50 on tempo. I understand there is variance and it's magic but does anyone have suggestions or cardinal rules that tend to lead to better tempo. For example, I tend to keep 7 if I have discard, 2-3 lands and additional disruption. Thank you in advance for any advice whether it be a sweet spot on Loots to start with etc.
Usually it was not a big issue for me. I personally avoid fetching for Foundry at any cost if it matters and I am up against LD. But you can try it for sure.
Tried godless shrine, it led to multiple hands that I had to muligan that I otherwise would not have had to. You would be better off with another RB land.
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, since I haven't played with Mardu Pyromancer as of yet: have anyone tried Dark Confidant over Bedlam Reveler?
Out of ignorance, I would say that the Reveler provides a bigger body, instant card advantage, and prowess triggers. On the other hand, Bob brings constant card advantage, it comes into play a lot earlier and is not dependent of the graveyard.
Thanks!
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
Another thing to note about Godless Shrine is that Andreas_Mueller had Nahiri in their list and so was a tiny bit more dependent on white other than lingering souls and Wear // Tear. I'm currently only on one sacred foundry because I only own one but I would probably play the 2nd sacred foundry before the godless shrine.
As for Dark Confidant, you have to have it survive for multiple turns for it to get as much as a Reveler would. It also dies to fatal push, abrupt decay, and bolt, whereas Reveler is much more resistant to.
Its kinda like a double edged sword. If you run more white shocks, you run less basics which also makes you weaker to FoR, GQ and Fulminator for example.
Maindeckwise I don't like any other white card other than Souls personally, which means I can most of the time cast it through a discard outlet. I have 4 Looting, 4 Bedlam, 2 CB, 2 LoTV which are 12 discard outlets. Looting even counts as double discard outlet to a certain extend.
However, the way I do it is that I only fetch for a white source if I want to cast Souls right away. Against decks where LD matters you can keep a fetchland uncracked for that reason.
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, since I haven't played with Mardu Pyromancer as of yet: have anyone tried Dark Confidant over Bedlam Reveler?
Out of ignorance, I would say that the Reveler provides a bigger body, instant card advantage, and prowess triggers. On the other hand, Bob brings constant card advantage, it comes into play a lot earlier and is not dependent of the graveyard.
Thanks!
I think it would significantly weaken our deck if we would do that. Reveler is our best threat and top end card in the deck overall, as a 3/4 body for 2 Mana and a Ancestral Recall attached to it is pretty good in this game. It does not die to bolt, Push or most sweepers. Traditionally, Mardu was always a deck that was incredibly susceptible to sweepers, since most threats have a X/1 shape concerning Power and Thoughness. If you add Bob, you further enhance that weakness. I would also be careful calling Bob a constant card advantage card. I personally would argue that I only call something being constant, if I always get the effect if it resolves. If Reveler resolves, we get to draw 3 cards instantly. If Bob resolves, we do not automatically gain extra cards. Concerning Bob coming into play earlier, yeah, but in the early turns we want to interact with the opponent to stop their gameplan. I am much more interested in doing something like this: Turn 1 discard into turn 2 looting + second discard or removal. Plus, Reveler potentially could also come down turn 2 (although its not very consistantly happening. Lastly, Reveler is one of our best tools to simply kill the opponent. Its a powerful threat. All in all I don't think that is a good idea and I believe Reveler is actually the only reason Mardu Pyromancer as a deck could become a good deck.
Makes sense, thanks for the detailed answer! I have zero experience with the deck and just was wondering about that. Appreciate it!
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
I thought about playing LtLH maindeck. but I would totally play 1 LoTV always maindeck also. So a split might be interesting for me.
Concerning Blood Moon, I have to say, I do believe that its best to play it maindeck, rather than in the sideboard. Players can't have removal for it from the SB then and players might also not expect it then. However, I do find it hard finding space for 1-2 copies in the main. I see alot of lists play only 1 Manamorphose as opposed to my 2 copies, but I have to say, I like the card in the deck.
I have also liked 2 manamorphose. With the typical stock list of 20 lands, 8 creatures, and the rest spells, I saw 4 flex spots, so I used mine on 2 manamorphose, 1 LoTV, and 1 BM in the main. I have noticed sometimes that I would have hands with both LoTV and Reveler in hand, and it could get awkward if I don't want to discard LoTV to reveler but also don't want to discard reveler to LoTV if they're the only two cards in hand. I haven't given LtLH a try yet but I would like to, but finding space is hard. Current list that I'll be working with for the next couple weeks:
3-1 at FNM with Mardu. List was pretty stock, but I was running 21 lands because my most common failure state for the deck is stalling out on two lands and dying. Beat Lantern, Death Cloud, and UR Delver, lost to Soul Sister. May have flooded a little, but given that I cut one of my two Manamorphoses for a land, I don't think it'd have been all that different with just 20 land.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
What is everyone's thoughts on Nahiri, the Harbinger? I've seen some lists who have had success using Nahiri. I wanna try a list that is equivalent to the one I have in post #4561, except take out the BM main for a Nahiri, swap out a Swamp for either Godless Shrine or Sacred Foundry, and then in the side take out one of the Hazorets for the 2nd BM. Thoughts?
I honestly like LoTV or LtLH more. But its a potent PW for grindy matchups which is very versatile. I think she is a bit slow against aggro though, for which reason I am not a fan of her. Also the white requirement could be a liability.
I have to say I can't decide on a perfect list at the moment. I have some personal bullet points I am quite certain of (like running 20 lands and 2 LoTV maindeck) but some flex slots are still bothering me to some extend.
I came to the conclusion that we can skimp on Tron hate for now. Tron gets punished by Hollow One and faster aggro decks, which allows us to free up some SB slots. I am no longer playing 4-5 dedicated cards for Tron due to this. Instead I cut my Molten Rains completely and just play 2 BM as leftover tool for now. Its not the best, but I think its sufficient right now. This can surely change again though.
4 Leyline is what I will try also going onward. I personally like Spellbomb quite a bit, and I stated that, but Hollow One not being able to deal with it really makes my rethinking Leyline as a whole. I will give it a try for now.
I am also pro 2-3 sweeper in the SB now, with 2 of them being EE for sure. Its good against Bogles (which already did see some paly again) and Humans, as well as Elves, which is a deck that could potentially fall under the radar since it has actually good Hollow One and Human matchups. I am on 2 EE and 1 Anger atm.
Magma Spray is a neat card which I liked from Team Pamplemousse. I like it against the top decks in the format right now. I am testing 1 copy in the side.
I am really glad you posted this because I have been monitoring variants of the deck closely from as many valid sources as possible. I have noticed this player Andreas_Mueller and it's also interesting it was switched from the name above(maybe requested it?) Up until today, this list ran a Nahiri Fatal Push Heavy Moonless mainboard and they made 4 changes to the sideboard between challenges. Between the last two Challenges, the majority remains the same but one notable Mainboard change was Liliana the last hope, which was also the PW at GP Hartsford. The sideboard was changes +2 Blood Moon, +1 Nahiri, -1 Leyline of the Void, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Rabble.
I have to agree that this particular player seems to be making the best weekly adjustments to the meta. On a separate note, would anyone mind sharing strategy/sequencing/timing to maintain tempo. As an example, I have played the deck a ton and this is not a 3 turn suicide death's shadow issue lol but I seem to be 50/50 on tempo. I understand there is variance and it's magic but does anyone have suggestions or cardinal rules that tend to lead to better tempo. For example, I tend to keep 7 if I have discard, 2-3 lands and additional disruption. Thank you in advance for any advice whether it be a sweet spot on Loots to start with etc.
I'll Keep my eye on the Pyros!
Out of ignorance, I would say that the Reveler provides a bigger body, instant card advantage, and prowess triggers. On the other hand, Bob brings constant card advantage, it comes into play a lot earlier and is not dependent of the graveyard.
Thanks!
As for Dark Confidant, you have to have it survive for multiple turns for it to get as much as a Reveler would. It also dies to fatal push, abrupt decay, and bolt, whereas Reveler is much more resistant to.
Maindeckwise I don't like any other white card other than Souls personally, which means I can most of the time cast it through a discard outlet. I have 4 Looting, 4 Bedlam, 2 CB, 2 LoTV which are 12 discard outlets. Looting even counts as double discard outlet to a certain extend.
However, the way I do it is that I only fetch for a white source if I want to cast Souls right away. Against decks where LD matters you can keep a fetchland uncracked for that reason.
I think it would significantly weaken our deck if we would do that. Reveler is our best threat and top end card in the deck overall, as a 3/4 body for 2 Mana and a Ancestral Recall attached to it is pretty good in this game. It does not die to bolt, Push or most sweepers. Traditionally, Mardu was always a deck that was incredibly susceptible to sweepers, since most threats have a X/1 shape concerning Power and Thoughness. If you add Bob, you further enhance that weakness. I would also be careful calling Bob a constant card advantage card. I personally would argue that I only call something being constant, if I always get the effect if it resolves. If Reveler resolves, we get to draw 3 cards instantly. If Bob resolves, we do not automatically gain extra cards. Concerning Bob coming into play earlier, yeah, but in the early turns we want to interact with the opponent to stop their gameplan. I am much more interested in doing something like this: Turn 1 discard into turn 2 looting + second discard or removal. Plus, Reveler potentially could also come down turn 2 (although its not very consistantly happening. Lastly, Reveler is one of our best tools to simply kill the opponent. Its a powerful threat. All in all I don't think that is a good idea and I believe Reveler is actually the only reason Mardu Pyromancer as a deck could become a good deck.
4 Bedlam Reveler
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Collective Brutality
4 Faithless Looting
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Manamorphose
2 Blood Moon
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Mountain
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Wear // Tear
Seems odd with mb Lili the last hope, 2 moons, 1 manamorphose. I'm sure there's a reason for all of it though.
I have 1 more Manamorphose, 1 more LoTV, 1 Anger and 1 Magma Spray
And therefore 2 less Rabblemaster, 1 less CB and 1 less Nihil Spellbomb.
Concerning Blood Moon, I have to say, I do believe that its best to play it maindeck, rather than in the sideboard. Players can't have removal for it from the SB then and players might also not expect it then. However, I do find it hard finding space for 1-2 copies in the main. I see alot of lists play only 1 Manamorphose as opposed to my 2 copies, but I have to say, I like the card in the deck.
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (30)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
3 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Lingering Souls
2 Manamorphose
1 Blood Moon
Lands (20)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear // Tear
2 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Blood Moon
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Surgical Extraction