Played yesterday with an incomplete version of death's shadow.
Unfortunately I have only one Street wraith (used 3 looting to fill the spot). Only 3 eidolons.
Went 2-2.
Won the first match against jeskai ascendary combo. G1 eidolon won the game. G2 I eventually hit for 16 with 2 death shadow s and Goblin Bushwhacker.
The second match I lost against a brew tribal vampires. To be honest, I lost to myself. I was unable to control eidolon and the self burn.
The third match was against a Grixis stock list. G1 was pretty good until the opponent drew 3 cards from ancestral, top decking 3 bolts.
G2 he sided in surgical extraction and took my lingering souls and death shadow.
4th match against a humans tribal. Not exciting match. I killed every threat. Won by beating with death's shadow along side slayers stronghold.
Sry for the unformated report. I am on my cellphone.
I haven't been able to play much for the last week and a half or so, and probably won't get much time in the next 1-2 weeks either to really test it.
That's the problem with paper decks, you're at the mercy of a schedule and when events are firing. The MTGO folks have it so much easier in that regard.
I haven't been able to play much for the last week and a half or so, and probably won't get much time in the next 1-2 weeks either to really test it.
That's the problem with paper decks, you're at the mercy of a schedule and when events are firing. The MTGO folks have it so much easier in that regard.
I liked a lot, to be honest. I missed the Wraiths though. Most of the times I lacked the speed to close the combat. I had 2 Ranger, 1 wraith, 3 eidolon, 4 DS,2 Bushwhacker and 1 Reckless. I tested with 3 lingering souls. Perhaps with the complete deck I can mitigate the feeling that I was running out of gas too early.
Eidolon is very dangerous and almost killed me most of the time. Faithless looting definitely isn't a good card for this deck since we're not playing with our graveyard in mind. Perhaps Night's Whisper?
Eidolon is very dangerous and almost killed me most of the time. Faithless looting definitely isn't a good card for this deck since we're not playing with our graveyard in mind. Perhaps Night's Whisper?
I would be hesitant to pair more lifeloss with Eidolon. I'm using Orzhov Charm right now, getting back Bushwhackers or DS's seems good, but I haven't gotten many games with that build in yet.
I was trying out the card to see how it felt. I like it as a 1 of, 2 showed up in my opening hand too often. I tried Young Pyromancer and the other cards and didn't like it so much. Neither did I like a 4th Bitterblossom. Intangible Virtue never felt like a dead draw, have to play more games to see if that changes.
why only 2x Nahiri and not the full playset ?
Your list seems rather light on removal
I only have 2 copies of Nahiri and 1 copy each of Push and Terminate. If I had more Fatal Push I'd definitely run them.
4x Crackling Doom seems really odd in the SB, why choose it over Path to Exile/Terminate (or even Blessed Alliance) ?
Is "Bogles" a major player in your meta ?
Yes it is. Bogles alone has 3 people playing them and they all side multiple Leyline of Sanctity so a full set of Crackling Doom is the best thing I have against them. Blessed Alliance doesnt get around Leyline, Crackling Doom does. It also works against Infect when they're packing 4 Vines of Vastwood and 4 Blossoming Defense like the local Infect player does.
The cards I'm definitely cutting from the list are 1 Entreat the Angels and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. a 4th Gideon and some kind of removal like Path/Push/Lightning Helix are going in.
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Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
I am currently on a Nahiri build with two pack rat as an alternate win condition (in case I run into one of the couple decks that Nahiri just dies to) and honestly, this guy has worked AMAZINGLY for me. He is completely resistant to any removal short of MPulse and has the ability to turn any late game draw (no matter how bad) into straight gas. Rat has taken over games singlehandedly more than once and I highly recommend more extensive testing of this card as a late game wincon for any version of the deck. (less so for the DS versions as by then u have probably lost)
In a word: consistency. Without green you cant traverse, without blue you cant cantrip. Most DS decks only run 8-10 true threats, without a reliable way to find them mardu will either durdle too long in a format that soft wins on turn 3, or get your 1 threat nuked and not have a way to tutor for another. Faithless is card disadvantage, and we dont have snapcaster to reuse the cards we chucked (though it DOES play nice with orzhov charm).
In the end though, this game is about having fun, and just because i wasnt happy with my mardu shadow brews doesnt mean you wont have success. Plan it, build it, take it to an fnm or two and test it. And then please, come back and report. I genuinely want to be proven wrong on this.
In a word: consistency. Without green you cant traverse, without blue you cant cantrip. Most DS decks only run 8-10 true threats, without a reliable way to find them mardu will either durdle too long in a format that soft wins on turn 3, or get your 1 threat nuked and not have a way to tutor for another. Faithless is card disadvantage, and we dont have snapcaster to reuse the cards we chucked (though it DOES play nice with orzhov charm).
In the end though, this game is about having fun, and just because i wasnt happy with my mardu shadow brews doesnt mean you wont have success. Plan it, build it, take it to an fnm or two and test it. And then please, come back and report. I genuinely want to be proven wrong on this.
Cantrips don't matter, you're better off without them. It just means building your deck slightly different.
Traverse doesn't matter, Traverse is just a threat. 4 Traverse+4 Goyf+4 DS is still fewer threats than 4 DS, 4 Lingering Souls, and then the other guys like Ranger of Eos, and the weird things I run like Bushwhackers and Eidolons.
You can do things like spending your turn clearing the board, then untapping into a 7/7 DS with a Bushwhacker, and swinging for 10 damage out of nowhere (can also do this with Souls). It's super effective.
Try dropping a 7/7 DS sometime,
Aazadan's list looks interesting with the reckless bushwackers which is worth testing. However, the deck plays the same midrange game as Grixis and Jund and they arguably have far superior threat density - despite playing less threats - with cantrips and tutors. Lingering Souls is great but technically you can play them in Grixis and Jund too, and they intentionally do not play it because it's currently a sideboard card right now.
I also think Eidolon is way too risky to play in a Death Shadow build, for the same reason Dark Confidant isn't played despite the low mana curve in other Death Shadow decks (although street wraith is also another big factor). Eidolon can't really be played outside of a burn build because the card is much worse when we are likely to be at a lower life than our opponent. Burn can ensure with burn spells and cheap red 1 drops that Eidolon will benefit them way more than the opponent.
My opinion is that Mardu wants to go faster if it does not want to compete in the same axis, with a lower curve. I play 17 lands as opposed to the 22 because this deck only needs to go off using 1-2 mana. I prefer the cantrips here over the Grixis version because cards like Thought Scour and Serum Visions cost mana and slows you down significantly compared to Manamorphose. Our other cantrips are like Jund, which I prefer - Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble - all of which pump Swiftspear really well.
Goblin Guide sometimes wins you the game against non-midrange decks but it is a card I'm considering cutting for something else. Maybe I'll play 1-2 Fatal Push and make my midrange/aggro match a little better while weakening my combo/control match.
OH and Orzhov Charm is just fantastic. All its modes are relevant 90% of the time. After you deploy all your threats, you can get around pretty much any removal spells and kill your opponent on the following turn.
Key difference between Mardu and other variants: Far less reliant on graveyard, faster, lower curve, better sideboard cards, etc. The downside is less impact in the midrange battles where your opponent will grind you out with Reality Smasher, Kolaghan's Command, Snapcaster Mage, Liliana of the Last Hope, etc. For these matches, I playing Lingering Souls in the side.
Technically speaking, I can just go 4 colors and play Traverse instead of Goblin Guide. That would make the mana a lot worse because you only need turn 1 black/red in this build; I may also need to play bad cards like tarfire. But traverse would give the deck a lot more power and consistency.
Manamorphose seems really out of place here, it is a card that is only good for combo decks that want to chain spells together like "Storm" and "UR Prowess", I'd rather play maindeck a Nihil Spellbomb that also cantrips for 2 (that can be split over 2 turns).
Mishra's Bauble is just a slow cantrip without the need to hit delirium (like in "Jund Shadow"), seems like a waste of a card slot.
I'd rather play more lands, 17x lands is just not enough 19x (or at the very least 18x) seems much more reasonable.
DS decks must be explosive. We do have to search for "cantrips" but if we have to use any... we must avoid slow ones. I like painful truths in a mid range strategy, which is not the case. Tap 3 Mana, draw 3 and pass the turn? It's too passive.
I've rather prefer to draw 2 on T2.
Yes, manamorfose feels suboptimal here. But again, fixing your Mana, draw a card and probably cast something seems much more proactive compared to draw 3 and lose your turn just doing that. It won't give immediately presence. Are we sure that a Mardu DS can recover the board advantage after a "do nothing" turn 3 in Modern?
I think that what is common to all DS decks is that they are very disruptive and aim to win the top deck war or just stick one big threat and finish the game with it.
It is very much a midrange deck imho.
Painful Truths is probably not a good turn 3 play but later in the game it (and Kolaghan's Command) is probably the best card you can draw.
When playing so many discard spells and other 1-for-1's there should be a way to refill the hand and this deck doesn't have access to cards like: Traverse the Ulvenwald, Serum Visions or "Snapcaster Mage + Thought Scour" so it seems like the best remaining option to draw cards.
Dark confidant might also be an option but it is probably too vulnerable to generate any real card advantage and isn't a great fit in a deck with delve creatures and Street Wraith/Bone Picker.
Maybe something like Asylum Visitor can be a safer (and more aggressive) option but it is also very easy to remove.
I don't really see the appeal of Monastery Swiftspear in a midrange deck, that is why I prefer the Bone Picker (cost reduction should be easy enough to activate even without V.Devil)
+ Vexing Devil (it is essentially a Boros Charm to the face that can be reanimated with Orzhov Charm) pairing.
I'd rather have 1x Tasigur over a 3rd Angler to have a cheaper threat that can be cast earlier.
Ranger of Eos is extremely slow at 4-mana and the Goblin Bushwhacker tech seems too cute imho (late game G.Bushwhackers aren't that great) and this creature is only good in swarm decks anyway.
I wouldn't run Boros Charm in this deck, the double strike mode isn't very relevant (only on an unblocked big DS which means you are winning anyway) and the deck isn't really a burn deck to run such narrow cards.
In such a tight deck like DS with a low land count I wouldn't want lands like Slayers' Stronghold which are essentially dead draws before you hit 3 other lands and don't help you cast your spells (in a 3-color deck).
I've been trying to make Vexing devil works in a DS mardu shell and even with Orzhov Charm AND Proclamation of rebirth, it just doesn't work. I almost always wished it was something else. Felt like card disadvantage most of the time. Maybe it worth a try with bone picker but both card on their own feels pretty bad.
Unfortunately I have only one Street wraith (used 3 looting to fill the spot). Only 3 eidolons.
Went 2-2.
Won the first match against jeskai ascendary combo. G1 eidolon won the game. G2 I eventually hit for 16 with 2 death shadow s and Goblin Bushwhacker.
The second match I lost against a brew tribal vampires. To be honest, I lost to myself. I was unable to control eidolon and the self burn.
The third match was against a Grixis stock list. G1 was pretty good until the opponent drew 3 cards from ancestral, top decking 3 bolts.
G2 he sided in surgical extraction and took my lingering souls and death shadow.
4th match against a humans tribal. Not exciting match. I killed every threat. Won by beating with death's shadow along side slayers stronghold.
Sry for the unformated report. I am on my cellphone.
I haven't been able to play much for the last week and a half or so, and probably won't get much time in the next 1-2 weeks either to really test it.
That's the problem with paper decks, you're at the mercy of a schedule and when events are firing. The MTGO folks have it so much easier in that regard.
I liked a lot, to be honest. I missed the Wraiths though. Most of the times I lacked the speed to close the combat. I had 2 Ranger, 1 wraith, 3 eidolon, 4 DS,2 Bushwhacker and 1 Reckless. I tested with 3 lingering souls. Perhaps with the complete deck I can mitigate the feeling that I was running out of gas too early.
Eidolon is very dangerous and almost killed me most of the time. Faithless looting definitely isn't a good card for this deck since we're not playing with our graveyard in mind. Perhaps Night's Whisper?
I would be hesitant to pair more lifeloss with Eidolon. I'm using Orzhov Charm right now, getting back Bushwhackers or DS's seems good, but I haven't gotten many games with that build in yet.
I was trying out the card to see how it felt. I like it as a 1 of, 2 showed up in my opening hand too often. I tried Young Pyromancer and the other cards and didn't like it so much. Neither did I like a 4th Bitterblossom. Intangible Virtue never felt like a dead draw, have to play more games to see if that changes.
I only have 2 copies of Nahiri and 1 copy each of Push and Terminate. If I had more Fatal Push I'd definitely run them.
Yes it is. Bogles alone has 3 people playing them and they all side multiple Leyline of Sanctity so a full set of Crackling Doom is the best thing I have against them. Blessed Alliance doesnt get around Leyline, Crackling Doom does. It also works against Infect when they're packing 4 Vines of Vastwood and 4 Blossoming Defense like the local Infect player does.
The cards I'm definitely cutting from the list are 1 Entreat the Angels and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. a 4th Gideon and some kind of removal like Path/Push/Lightning Helix are going in.
I mean look at it - Mardu hurts himself pretty bad.
Kiln Fiend is a kill-option.
Liliana, IoK, Seize, Lingering Souls, Faithless Looting...
Green @ it's best
In the end though, this game is about having fun, and just because i wasnt happy with my mardu shadow brews doesnt mean you wont have success. Plan it, build it, take it to an fnm or two and test it. And then please, come back and report. I genuinely want to be proven wrong on this.
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
3 terminate
4 lingering souls
2 anger of the gods
2 damnation
Permanents 12
2 phyrexian arena
4 Liliana of the veil
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
4 blackcleave cliffs
4 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats
1 arid Mesa
2 blood crypt
1 godless shrine
1 sacred foundry
2 swamp
1 plains
1 mountain
2 shambling vent
1 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 duress
2 rakdos charm
2 torpor orb
2 stony silence
2 Hide//Seek
2 molten rain
1 anger of the gods
1 damnation
1 Elspeth, Sun's champion
What do you guys think?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Look back a page or two, I have a pretty good DS list.
Cantrips don't matter, you're better off without them. It just means building your deck slightly different.
Traverse doesn't matter, Traverse is just a threat. 4 Traverse+4 Goyf+4 DS is still fewer threats than 4 DS, 4 Lingering Souls, and then the other guys like Ranger of Eos, and the weird things I run like Bushwhackers and Eidolons.
You can do things like spending your turn clearing the board, then untapping into a 7/7 DS with a Bushwhacker, and swinging for 10 damage out of nowhere (can also do this with Souls). It's super effective.
Try dropping a 7/7 DS sometime,
Aazadan's list looks interesting with the reckless bushwackers which is worth testing. However, the deck plays the same midrange game as Grixis and Jund and they arguably have far superior threat density - despite playing less threats - with cantrips and tutors. Lingering Souls is great but technically you can play them in Grixis and Jund too, and they intentionally do not play it because it's currently a sideboard card right now.
I also think Eidolon is way too risky to play in a Death Shadow build, for the same reason Dark Confidant isn't played despite the low mana curve in other Death Shadow decks (although street wraith is also another big factor). Eidolon can't really be played outside of a burn build because the card is much worse when we are likely to be at a lower life than our opponent. Burn can ensure with burn spells and cheap red 1 drops that Eidolon will benefit them way more than the opponent.
My opinion is that Mardu wants to go faster if it does not want to compete in the same axis, with a lower curve. I play 17 lands as opposed to the 22 because this deck only needs to go off using 1-2 mana. I prefer the cantrips here over the Grixis version because cards like Thought Scour and Serum Visions cost mana and slows you down significantly compared to Manamorphose. Our other cantrips are like Jund, which I prefer - Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble - all of which pump Swiftspear really well.
Goblin Guide sometimes wins you the game against non-midrange decks but it is a card I'm considering cutting for something else. Maybe I'll play 1-2 Fatal Push and make my midrange/aggro match a little better while weakening my combo/control match.
OH and Orzhov Charm is just fantastic. All its modes are relevant 90% of the time. After you deploy all your threats, you can get around pretty much any removal spells and kill your opponent on the following turn.
Key difference between Mardu and other variants: Far less reliant on graveyard, faster, lower curve, better sideboard cards, etc. The downside is less impact in the midrange battles where your opponent will grind you out with Reality Smasher, Kolaghan's Command, Snapcaster Mage, Liliana of the Last Hope, etc. For these matches, I playing Lingering Souls in the side.
Technically speaking, I can just go 4 colors and play Traverse instead of Goblin Guide. That would make the mana a lot worse because you only need turn 1 black/red in this build; I may also need to play bad cards like tarfire. But traverse would give the deck a lot more power and consistency.
(which are bad outside of a Burn deck) ?
Another 1-drop option can be Vexing Devil that works well with Bone Picker and Orzhov Charm.
Grim Lavamancer can also be decent as a repeatable burn source.
No Fatal Push seems not optimal.
Manamorphose seems really out of place here, it is a card that is only good for combo decks that want to chain spells together like "Storm" and "UR Prowess", I'd rather play maindeck a Nihil Spellbomb that also cantrips for 2 (that can be split over 2 turns).
You can also play Lingering Souls/Kolaghan's Command (or even Painful Truths) instead, some of the better tools in Mardu.
Mishra's Bauble is just a slow cantrip without the need to hit delirium (like in "Jund Shadow"), seems like a waste of a card slot.
I'd rather play more lands, 17x lands is just not enough 19x (or at the very least 18x) seems much more reasonable.
4x Death's Shadow
4x Vexing Devil
4x Bone Picker
4x Street Wraith
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Gurmag Angler
Instant (12)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fatal Push
2x Orzhov Charm
1x Path to Exile
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Painful Truths
Land (19)
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Arid Mesa
4x Marsh Flats
2x Blood Crypt
2x Godless Shrine
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Fulminator Mage
3x Lingering Souls
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Terminate
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Stony Silence
I've rather prefer to draw 2 on T2.
Yes, manamorfose feels suboptimal here. But again, fixing your Mana, draw a card and probably cast something seems much more proactive compared to draw 3 and lose your turn just doing that. It won't give immediately presence. Are we sure that a Mardu DS can recover the board advantage after a "do nothing" turn 3 in Modern?
It is very much a midrange deck imho.
Painful Truths is probably not a good turn 3 play but later in the game it (and Kolaghan's Command) is probably the best card you can draw.
When playing so many discard spells and other 1-for-1's there should be a way to refill the hand and this deck doesn't have access to cards like:
Traverse the Ulvenwald, Serum Visions or "Snapcaster Mage + Thought Scour" so it seems like the best remaining option to draw cards.
Another option can be Night's Whisper but it seems rather low impact compared to Painful Truths.
Dark confidant might also be an option but it is probably too vulnerable to generate any real card advantage and isn't a great fit in a deck with delve creatures and Street Wraith/Bone Picker.
Maybe something like Asylum Visitor can be a safer (and more aggressive) option but it is also very easy to remove.
Phyrexian Arena could be a grinding option?
Bone Picker (cost reduction should be easy enough to activate even without V.Devil)
+ Vexing Devil (it is essentially a Boros Charm to the face that can be reanimated with Orzhov Charm) pairing.
I'd rather have 1x Tasigur over a 3rd Angler to have a cheaper threat that can be cast earlier.
Ranger of Eos is extremely slow at 4-mana and the Goblin Bushwhacker tech seems too cute imho (late game G.Bushwhackers aren't that great) and this creature is only good in swarm decks anyway.
I wouldn't run Boros Charm in this deck, the double strike mode isn't very relevant (only on an unblocked big DS which means you are winning anyway) and the deck isn't really a burn deck to run such narrow cards.
In such a tight deck like DS with a low land count I wouldn't want lands like Slayers' Stronghold which are essentially dead draws before you hit 3 other lands and don't help you cast your spells (in a 3-color deck).