On the Leyline of Sanctitys in the sb, those are definitely in there for Burn & splash hate against AdNaus and Valakut (notice there are no other cards in the board for Burn). Normally in the Mardu vs Jund MU both sides would take out their discard, but in the Nahiri-Control builds that might not be true since Nahiri builds are threat-light (ie weaker topdecks, might want to keep the discard in) & BGx might have a very hard time dealing with a resolved Nahiri so Thoughtseize becomes more important (either way, I really don't think that MU has anything to do with the Leylines).
On Bloodghast, I think the deck is much too slow and controlling to want a creature that cannot block (there could be a Rakdos / Mardu home for him, but it'd be a drastic departure from typical midrange / control).
As for card draw, Painful Truths is net +2 cards, Sign in Blood is net +1, and Faithless Looting is net -1 card, so I'd start my evaluation there. I don't think the deck has nearly enough ways to get value off of Looting (like a dredge or reanimator deck might) to compensate for the card disadvantage. Sign in Blood should just be Night's Whisper, and Truths is clearly stronger, so the question there is how much you value the mana efficiency. I've been testing Night's Whisper since the deck is already overloaded with powerful 3-drops, but Truths may be the correct choice and I think both are valid.
Agree on the 3 points. Painful Truths is really good in grindy matchups, or the ones where life doesn't matter. I'm not a fan of 3 Leylines, you will see at least 1 in 31,5% of your hands (without mulligans, it's like 50% if you take a mulligan)... His deck has 17 white sources for a turn 2 Kor Firewalker, 20 being the 'right' amount, it may work.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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I have not had that chance to test this exact list since it has minor tweaks on a past list, but I think I like the changes I made. I know there is no LotV, I don't own them and I am satisfied so far with what I have. It has been very resilient including winning a game where my opponent played two Terrastadon in one game. I have no intention of playing Sorin, because i feel his non +1 modes are really bad. Combo is obviosuly though and I have a broad plan in the board for it. Most of the one ofs in the deck are the cards I am experimenting with. I really have liked the one MD Bonefire of the Damned.
The board is still a work in progress, as is fitting Ghost Quarter in to the manabase.
On another note since I know it will probably be pointed out immediately. This deck can handle a boardwipe no problem as long as you dont get greedy. Chances are you will ripe it from their hand right before they want to use it. Also, Monastery Mentor it really good at holding down the fort for blocking and allowing the air token army to go to work. If he doesn't stick and dies to bolt, that is one less bolt for Nahiri. If they let you untap or you played him with mana people will wish they killed him. Let me know what you think of the one of choices, land base and Sideboard in particular. It needs some stream lining, but it is really hard to kill in the matches I have played so far.
How has bitterblossom been in your testing? I was running young pyro over mentor
Bitterblossom has been very good for me so far. I was running a playset, but that was a little overkill. I wouldn't recommend it if you are looking for a win con, but it is a multifaceted card for sure. I haven't done enough testing to be definitive.
I've dropped mentor despite liking everything but the clunkiness. I replaced it with Myth Realized and it has been very very good so far in the 30 or so matches I've played. I've been busy tweaking my other deck, but when I'm done there I'll run this a bit more and I'll give some reports. Bitterblossom and lingering souls are still really really good.
Hello all!
I'm thinking about getting into this deck from BW Tokens, but I'm looking for a different version. My favorite card is Butcher of the Horde. Played the thing all through standard and absolutely love it. Is there possibly a Mardu shell that works for him? I hear Mardu Aristocrats is hard because of the lack of green, which lead me here. This would also be purely an FNM deck, so being less competitive than other builds is fine by me.
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You want to run kitchen finks and lingering souls to sacrifice to him. Also Bob, since sacrificing him to Butcher can be a good thing when you're low on life.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
In an older build of mine my core threats were Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer, Lingering Souls & Butcher of the Horde; when I was playing that build I was actually pretty consistently impressed by Butcher, surprisingly. I stopped playing him when I stopped playing Young Pyro (plus Grixis was on the rise at the time, so there were a lot of Terminates running around), but like NBZ mentioned he actually has good synergy with Confidant, both being able to eat a Confidant that's gotten too ambitious or being able to gain lifelink to quickly recover the life you might have lost revealing him with Confidant.
He did a good job closing games quickly, could be given lifelink / vigilance to make combat a nightmare for aggro opponents (burn just can't beat the card), is naturally a gigantic flier to make things awkward for Inkmoth Nexus decks, the butch has a lot going on. Ultimately I think a lot of players don't run him because they just want more out of their 4-drop than a vanilla threat (albeit a very efficient one), but I definitely think he's a playable closer & your build can still be competitive. He and cards like him get better or worse the more Paths and Terminates there are in your meta. 4 Lingering Souls + 3 to 5 other 'food sources' (Kitchen Finks, Young Pyromancer, Bitterblossom) is really all he needs to do his job & he can still close a lot of games without ever using his ability (in grindy removal-heavy MUs I actually recommend you don't use his ability unless they're tapped out).
There's also a lot of value, in terms of deck composition and playing to your outs, to simply having access to 'oops I win' butchers off the top of your deck to steal otherwise unwinnable games.
ive really never been impressed with scully, but i guess it depends on the meta. Ive always had to deal with bolt or terminate or decay, or hell, even disfigure. Now if your LGS is full of decks that largly ignore your board state (looking at you storm) then you may have better results.
I don't like Sculler right now either. Regarding the 4-drops, it seems a bad idea and was about to suggest some changes, but I remembered playing Bloodbraid Elf with Dark Confiant before the banning, so who knows. Nevertheless, I would put the BBoV in the board (only good against grindy decks), and maybe something else (Nighthawk?) for 2 Grim Lavamancer if you expect aggro, along with Lightning Helix in place of Tidehollow Sculler. Or maybe you could drop the Confidants for some Painful Truths... I really don't know which direction you want your deck to take, or your local meta...
I think the only real thing I could say is: Drop at least 1 Godless Shrine for another Shambling Vent, and 1 Wear//Tear for 1 Hide//Seek (but this one is harder to find, so maybe you don't have one)
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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George White obviously had success with it, but I really don't like 4 path with 2 Kalitas, and running only 2 lilies. As for card draw, what do people think about faithless looting vs. sign in blood vs. painful truths? Faithless looting certainly has great synergy with Lily, Nahiri, and Souls, but it also makes grafdigger's cage even better against us, and with that card doing well against Abzan Coco, UWR control, and GY decks, I expect that sideboard card to be on the rise. Sign in blood could be used to kill the opponent when we go the burn route, but double black on turn 2 might be hard. Painful truths creates the most card advantage, but it also cost the most mana.
Also, does bloodghast have a place in this deck? He has synergy with Kalitas, Lily, Nahiri, and Faithless looting, if we run it, but then again the deck is even worse against graffdigger's cage.
EDIT: Also 3 leyline of sanctity seems like an odd choice. Wouldn't Jund side out discard against us? And there are pleanty of other cards for burn, like kitchen finks and timely reinforcements.
For reasons mentioned already, faithless looting isn't worth it unless you are heavily graveyard oriented. Nights' whisper is nice because it's a 2-drop and easier to use to fix your mana. Painful Truths is a great card as well.. it depends on your average cmc.
Why would we need sign in blood? The 2 damage isn't going to be relevant in these midrange/ control routes. We're trying to take control of the board very slowly. Sign in blood is more relevant in mono black/ rakdos aggro. You mention bloodghast but it just doesn't fit most of the strategies discussed here.
Bloodbraid elf is an exception to the rule because it's that good. Same reason applies for the 1-of Tasigur in many people's Jund list.
I would say the main concern isn't dark confidant's life loss but rather the fact that you are running 23 lands in a very top heavy deck. Even the Mardu Control deck at the pro tour was very careful not to overload on 4+ cmc drops at 23 lands. It's inconsistent to cast these spells on curve or even in the mid-game at 23 lands.
Also note that literally half of your 4-drops are cards you usually don't want to drop on turn 4. Cards like Sorin SV and Olivia want to be played after you establish the board with lingering souls or with some additional mana. They're certainly no Bloodbraid Elf.
Yeah, I was thinking about that I do think that Olivia and Kalitas are cards that can take over certain matchups. If you upper the manland count you can mitigate the flooding while hitting your land drops. I like Gonzo's SB, though
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Cut one terminate and one dredbore, put olivia to sideboard, cut nighthawk, cut sculler, and leave bloodbaron to sideboard. In place of the cards add: 2 paths, 3 Helix, 3 abbot of keral keep. Those are my suggestions since you want a lower curve due to confidant. Your sideboard you should add some timely reinforcements/kor firewalker for the burn/zoo matchup.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
The thing is that Bob being a Bolt magnet doesn't befenit you at all, he is not taking the bullet for your other guys... it's the only target! (if you cut Sculler, as everybody suggested)
If you have Burn in your meta, I think you should be playing Helix maindeck. If you are having troubles casting Kor Firewalker, Sanctimony does a fine legless impression. The only downside vs Dragon's Claw is that they can kill you with the trigger on the stack (tap mountain, the enchantment triggers, then they use the mana to bolt you... this only matters when you are about to die)
Yes, BBoV can't be answered with Modern's removal, but it can be ignored by some decks (even Burn). Stormbreath Dragon was unkillable too until decks started to run more Terminate. I don't think these dudes are good, but they certainly get the job done in Modern right now, and I have 2 of each sleeved along with other cards that I may use.
As a final comment, I think you are playing 2 different halves in your decklist. My advice is either go the aggro rute, or play a more controlish build...
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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4-0 (3-0-1 technically, but split the last round but played for fun and won).
On phone but list is standard mardu without bobs and the Nahirukul package.
R1. Some janky mono green deck. Bolts and terminates for his hornets nest and Nahiri him. Game 2 have Nahiri Liliana working together. Damnation his board and emrakul his 6 lands.
R2. Affinity. Game 1 he poops his hand out and I die to etched champ beats. G2 I play stony silence on 2 and bolt/helix/path/terminate every single thing he plays. G3 he kills to 5. I play stony on 2. Game over.
R3. Burn. G1 I get all the way to 3 life and opt to slowly get back up with shambling vents (secretly amazing). He top decks a land and I get him to zero. Game 2 lavamancer for his dudes, helix Liliana and shambling vents are too much for him.
R4. Scapeshift (actual UGR scapeshift). We're both 3-0 but play for fun. G1 I get a thoughsieze into t3 Liliana and toast him. I had gone to 16 and managed to get back up to 19 with a helix. He hits the 7 land threshold while my Liliana is about to ultimate but I'm at 19 so he scoops. G2 I get turn 7 scapeshift with no real hand disruption. G3 i t4 slaughter games his scapeshift and eventually have Liliana and Nahiri out and emrakul him.
Thoughts about the deck. I played jund/junk for a really long time and love the grindy midrange strategy. I just feel Nahiri is one of the absolute best things you ca be doing in modern right now. The card is the truth. Mardu has the absolute best disruption and removal in modern combined with fantastic hate in the SB. Without Nahirukul, it's a less good midrange deck to jund/junk. With the combo, it's amazing. Helix is one of my favorite cards and has been amazing I. My local metas that are swarming with aggro. I actually think Mardu has more game and is a better Nahiri shell than Jeskai. Going into an unknown meta/store I want thoughtsieze and IoK to proactively rip my opponents hands apart and pick off the remainders with bolt/path etc. it has better game against Tron than jund due to stony silence and is better against aggro than junk thanks to bolt. The archetype feels like it should be less creature intense and more in on Narihi than other midrange but that's fine as there is the best removal in modern in Mardu. Been playing a lot of Kiki chord and whole fun, if I'm going to a large event I want a T1 thoughtsieze into Lili to rest my head on.
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
First of all, Draken, your name is awesome and reminds me of a great PC game from way back when. So there's that. More to the point, ID love to see your list, when you get a chance, to compare notes. I'm with you on Mardhiri, and I think it's only a matter of time before it breaks out in a major event. Buy your pieces now, kids.
Specific to the Tron matchup, I'd like opinions on dreadbore and anguished unmaking. Jund has been running a one of for a lil bit now, mostly as a hedge against Jeskhiri, but I love seeing either when a turn 3 Karn or then 4 Ugin pops up. Dreadbore is faster to cast, less painful, and can do so after Karn has nabbed a land, but anguished hits more things and at instan speed. (Cranial Plating, Pyro Acsension, Keranos.) Any opinions on preference and numbers to run?
I'm building a similar list. I have been having success in my proxy testing with Gideon Jura since he makes creatures attack him which allows me to get Nahiri -2s off on any creature I want. Plus he protects her to ult.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Those of you running Blood Baron in your SB, what matchups do you bring it in for? I know it's a solid beater that doesn't die to basically any removal in the format, but which specific times is it better than Kalitas or other control elements?
Also, has anyone thought about Obzedat in main or board as an alternate Nahiri target?
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Agree on the 3 points. Painful Truths is really good in grindy matchups, or the ones where life doesn't matter. I'm not a fan of 3 Leylines, you will see at least 1 in 31,5% of your hands (without mulligans, it's like 50% if you take a mulligan)... His deck has 17 white sources for a turn 2 Kor Firewalker, 20 being the 'right' amount, it may work.
I've dropped mentor despite liking everything but the clunkiness. I replaced it with Myth Realized and it has been very very good so far in the 30 or so matches I've played. I've been busy tweaking my other deck, but when I'm done there I'll run this a bit more and I'll give some reports. Bitterblossom and lingering souls are still really really good.
I'm thinking about getting into this deck from BW Tokens, but I'm looking for a different version. My favorite card is Butcher of the Horde. Played the thing all through standard and absolutely love it. Is there possibly a Mardu shell that works for him? I hear Mardu Aristocrats is hard because of the lack of green, which lead me here. This would also be purely an FNM deck, so being less competitive than other builds is fine by me.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
He did a good job closing games quickly, could be given lifelink / vigilance to make combat a nightmare for aggro opponents (burn just can't beat the card), is naturally a gigantic flier to make things awkward for Inkmoth Nexus decks, the butch has a lot going on. Ultimately I think a lot of players don't run him because they just want more out of their 4-drop than a vanilla threat (albeit a very efficient one), but I definitely think he's a playable closer & your build can still be competitive. He and cards like him get better or worse the more Paths and Terminates there are in your meta. 4 Lingering Souls + 3 to 5 other 'food sources' (Kitchen Finks, Young Pyromancer, Bitterblossom) is really all he needs to do his job & he can still close a lot of games without ever using his ability (in grindy removal-heavy MUs I actually recommend you don't use his ability unless they're tapped out).
There's also a lot of value, in terms of deck composition and playing to your outs, to simply having access to 'oops I win' butchers off the top of your deck to steal otherwise unwinnable games.
I think the only real thing I could say is: Drop at least 1 Godless Shrine for another Shambling Vent, and 1 Wear//Tear for 1 Hide//Seek (but this one is harder to find, so maybe you don't have one)
For reasons mentioned already, faithless looting isn't worth it unless you are heavily graveyard oriented. Nights' whisper is nice because it's a 2-drop and easier to use to fix your mana. Painful Truths is a great card as well.. it depends on your average cmc.
Why would we need sign in blood? The 2 damage isn't going to be relevant in these midrange/ control routes. We're trying to take control of the board very slowly. Sign in blood is more relevant in mono black/ rakdos aggro. You mention bloodghast but it just doesn't fit most of the strategies discussed here.
I would say the main concern isn't dark confidant's life loss but rather the fact that you are running 23 lands in a very top heavy deck. Even the Mardu Control deck at the pro tour was very careful not to overload on 4+ cmc drops at 23 lands. It's inconsistent to cast these spells on curve or even in the mid-game at 23 lands.
Also note that literally half of your 4-drops are cards you usually don't want to drop on turn 4. Cards like Sorin SV and Olivia want to be played after you establish the board with lingering souls or with some additional mana. They're certainly no Bloodbraid Elf.
Cut one terminate and one dredbore, put olivia to sideboard, cut nighthawk, cut sculler, and leave bloodbaron to sideboard. In place of the cards add: 2 paths, 3 Helix, 3 abbot of keral keep. Those are my suggestions since you want a lower curve due to confidant. Your sideboard you should add some timely reinforcements/kor firewalker for the burn/zoo matchup.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
If you have Burn in your meta, I think you should be playing Helix maindeck. If you are having troubles casting Kor Firewalker, Sanctimony does a fine legless impression. The only downside vs Dragon's Claw is that they can kill you with the trigger on the stack (tap mountain, the enchantment triggers, then they use the mana to bolt you... this only matters when you are about to die)
Yes, BBoV can't be answered with Modern's removal, but it can be ignored by some decks (even Burn). Stormbreath Dragon was unkillable too until decks started to run more Terminate. I don't think these dudes are good, but they certainly get the job done in Modern right now, and I have 2 of each sleeved along with other cards that I may use.
As a final comment, I think you are playing 2 different halves in your decklist. My advice is either go the aggro rute, or play a more controlish build...
On phone but list is standard mardu without bobs and the Nahirukul package.
R1. Some janky mono green deck. Bolts and terminates for his hornets nest and Nahiri him. Game 2 have Nahiri Liliana working together. Damnation his board and emrakul his 6 lands.
R2. Affinity. Game 1 he poops his hand out and I die to etched champ beats. G2 I play stony silence on 2 and bolt/helix/path/terminate every single thing he plays. G3 he kills to 5. I play stony on 2. Game over.
R3. Burn. G1 I get all the way to 3 life and opt to slowly get back up with shambling vents (secretly amazing). He top decks a land and I get him to zero. Game 2 lavamancer for his dudes, helix Liliana and shambling vents are too much for him.
R4. Scapeshift (actual UGR scapeshift). We're both 3-0 but play for fun. G1 I get a thoughsieze into t3 Liliana and toast him. I had gone to 16 and managed to get back up to 19 with a helix. He hits the 7 land threshold while my Liliana is about to ultimate but I'm at 19 so he scoops. G2 I get turn 7 scapeshift with no real hand disruption. G3 i t4 slaughter games his scapeshift and eventually have Liliana and Nahiri out and emrakul him.
Thoughts about the deck. I played jund/junk for a really long time and love the grindy midrange strategy. I just feel Nahiri is one of the absolute best things you ca be doing in modern right now. The card is the truth. Mardu has the absolute best disruption and removal in modern combined with fantastic hate in the SB. Without Nahirukul, it's a less good midrange deck to jund/junk. With the combo, it's amazing. Helix is one of my favorite cards and has been amazing I. My local metas that are swarming with aggro. I actually think Mardu has more game and is a better Nahiri shell than Jeskai. Going into an unknown meta/store I want thoughtsieze and IoK to proactively rip my opponents hands apart and pick off the remainders with bolt/path etc. it has better game against Tron than jund due to stony silence and is better against aggro than junk thanks to bolt. The archetype feels like it should be less creature intense and more in on Narihi than other midrange but that's fine as there is the best removal in modern in Mardu. Been playing a lot of Kiki chord and whole fun, if I'm going to a large event I want a T1 thoughtsieze into Lili to rest my head on.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
3x nyxathid
3x hellspark elemental
3x kalitas, traitor of ghet
planeswalkers
4x liliana of the veil
1x ajani vengeant
spells
2x lingering souls
3x path to exile
3x lightning bolt
4x lightning helix
4x thoughtseize
3x Blightning
4x inquisition of kozilek
4x wooded foothills
4x sacred foundry
4x bloodstained mire
4x blood crypt
1x mountain
1x swamp
1x plains
2x shambling vent
1x keldon megaliths
1x dragonskull summit
Specific to the Tron matchup, I'd like opinions on dreadbore and anguished unmaking. Jund has been running a one of for a lil bit now, mostly as a hedge against Jeskhiri, but I love seeing either when a turn 3 Karn or then 4 Ugin pops up. Dreadbore is faster to cast, less painful, and can do so after Karn has nabbed a land, but anguished hits more things and at instan speed. (Cranial Plating, Pyro Acsension, Keranos.) Any opinions on preference and numbers to run?
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 terminate
2 painful truths
4 lingering souls
4 liliana of the veil
4 Nahiri, the harbinger
1 Ajani Vengeant
Creautres 3
2 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
4 blackcleave cliffs
4 marsh flats
2 bloodstained mire
2 arid mesa
1 blood crypt
1 godless shrine
1 sacred foundry
2 swamp
1 plains
3 shambling vent
3 tectonic edge
2 stony silence
2 Hide // Seek
2 rakdos charm
2 anger of the gods
2 kitchen finks
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 blood baron of vizkopa
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm building a similar list. I have been having success in my proxy testing with Gideon Jura since he makes creatures attack him which allows me to get Nahiri -2s off on any creature I want. Plus he protects her to ult.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Also, has anyone thought about Obzedat in main or board as an alternate Nahiri target?