For all of the banter and the tech and the magical christmasland combos with nahiri into emrakul, I think people have dragged themselves away from the deck's biggest upside. Play uber-efficient spells and get extra value off them via Young Pyromancer and Old Pyromancer, and win by going wide. It sounds simple because it is simple, and I 3-1'd FNM at what is proving to be a very competitive shop on the North Side of Indy.
Round 1: vs Affinity
On the play my turn 1 Thoughtseize finds Ravager (which I take) and some other fun stuff. Zealous Persecution proves to be a huge blowout after he empties his hand, and monks and elementals clean up the rest.
SB: +2 stony silence, +2 crumble to dust || -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Lightning Bolt
Game 2 I open stony silence which drops turn two, and he can't find disenchant before I run him out of the game.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2: vs Abzan
He wins the play and goes turn one fetch, shock, thoughtseize to catch me with a 4-lander, rips out my path to exile and resolves two 3/4 goyfs in short order. Lingering Souls stems the tide for a little but not long enough.
SB: +1 Crackling Doom +1 Damnation +1 Murderous Cut || -1 Kolaghan's Command -2 Painful Truths
Game 2 I fire off turn 1 Inquisition only to find 3 lands, liliana of the veil, and 3 seige rhinos. He finds the fourth land on curve and crashes me out.
1-1 (2-2)
Round 3: vs Big Red
My turn 1 shock/thoughtseize reveals the following hand: 2 Mountain, Ball Lightning, Koth of the Hammer, Blood Moon, Pyroclasm, Magma Jet. With mountain as my only basic in hand I rip out the blood moon and start playing creatures to force burns spells on them. Ball Lightning knocks me to 10, Searing blaze on pyro to 9, bolt to 6 but now he's down to one card. I resolve a second young pyromancer and Inquisition his last card out for an elemental, he tops thunderbreak regent, I EoT path it going to 3. Serve in for 4 and show two bolts for exactly enough damage. And he had the 3-damage spell on top of his deck.
SB: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Painful Truths || +2 Crackling Doom, +1 Duress +1 Obzedat, Ghost Chieftain
Game 2 I again catch him with a blood moon in his opening hand and rip it out. Burn spells knock me to 10 before I get to 5 mana for obzedat, and he can't find two instant-speed 3-damage spells to knock him out.
2-1 (4-2)
Round 4: vs Affinity
Unlike the first affinity player who was adding white for Tempered Steel, this one was only playing a single island for thoughtcast. A flurry of discard effects (2 thoughtseize, 1 IoK, 1 Kommand) leaves him with only ornithopters and signal pests against my wider board of prowess monks.
SB: +2 stony silence, +2 crumble to dust || -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Lightning Bolt
Game 2 I mull to 6 to find stony silence, land it turn 2, and zealous persecution turn 3 after he overextends to leave him with no hand and no board. He scoops.
3-1 (6-2)
All in all I think it went rather well. I probably need Wear//Tear in the board over Rakdos Charm based on the other decks I saw, plus it occurred to me after the burn match that I have no way to remove a resolved blood moon. (OOPS!) I also am considering putting 1 Rest in Peace back in if the coco and abzan lists continue to show up, as a way to neuter goyf and scooze.
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I believe you bring up a salient point, Charm_Walker, though perhaps unknowingly. With the advent of Nahiri, (praise be upon her) we're seeing a division in the Mardu brews being developed. While I don't think this thread should disclude Nahiri control builds, it DID start out as a midrange discussion. Wall of omens into lingering into harbinger is a powerful line, but the control variants lack that midrange aspect of deciding "OK, I'm going into beatdown mode now with a fast clock" which the tokens and/or demons midrange builds very much have. Should we split the thread into more focused subdivisions? I don't know, I leave that the the moderator. I DO know, however, that Mardu has more options in modern now than it ever has before, and I can't help but want to throw Bob in with my Nahiri/Emrakul package just for the adrenaline rush on each draw trigger. YOLO, baby. YOLO.
I think that the mardu "go wide with tokens and power spells" deck is a fundamentally different thing than the mardu "control until nahiri spaghetti gg" deck - and SCG has shown that the former is, at least for now, the much more potent and more prevalent of a deck. Mardu Tokens produced a Top8 at the SCG Classic - Columbus in April (and see CmdrSlayer's thoughts on the matter, post #2443) It also got a states Top8 as well as a states WIN since then. The mardu nahiri control lists have very little showing in comparison and only at one or two IQs, and if that's what you're going for then jeskai has better tools to advance that goal.
Mardu is a control deck. It picks off stuff in the early game and wins with late game inevitability. Both versions have that ability, yes, but the way they go about it is so fundamentally different that I don't think they're worth being put together in the same thread.
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To be fair, Mardu Nahiri (mardhiri? nahirdu?) has only just begun being toyed around with. Brewers (including myself and others involved in this thread) have been working on Mardu midrange for months, if not years, before we started seeing results in large events. I feel a better comparison between the two would be dedicated testing against the current field. Who does better game 1 against CoCo Abzan? Tron? Burn or the new Jeskai?. Since both Mardus have access to the same (amazing) sideboard options, game 2 is a not quite as telling. However, dedicated hate is brutal against the token version, I can vouch personally that illness in the ranks is a nightmare, and night of souls betrayal is even worse. How is the match against each other? Unfortunately, I don't have the time to put into finding these answers right now, but while I do agree that the differences between the two are fundamental, I personally believe both are completely viable in today's modern. Hell, the Nahiri package is slim enough that one might get away with running a hybrid.
Out of curiosity, do you run anthems in your tokens build? Why or why not?
I think that the mardu "go wide with tokens and power spells" deck is a fundamentally different thing than the mardu "control until nahiri spaghetti gg" deck - and SCG has shown that the former is, at least for now, the much more potent and more prevalent of a deck. Mardu Tokens produced a Top8 at the SCG Classic - Columbus in April (and see CmdrSlayer's thoughts on the matter, post #2443) It also got a states Top8 as well as a states WIN since then. The mardu nahiri control lists have very little showing in comparison and only at one or two IQs, and if that's what you're going for then jeskai has better tools to advance that goal.
Mardu is a control deck. It picks off stuff in the early game and wins with late game inevitability. Both versions have that ability, yes, but the way they go about it is so fundamentally different that I don't think they're worth being put together in the same thread.
I agree Jeskai is probably better for a Nahiri shell. Going Mardu gives you hand disruption over counterspells. Disruptions can save you a couple turns but it's useless if you don't have a clock to abuse that tempo gain. Nahiri could win the game in 3 turns (if all things go well) but you are at the mercy of the opponent's top decks. And in terms of removal, Jeskai is just as good due to snapcaster mage.
On the other hand, I believe Mardu Tokens (the one with pyromancer and mentor) is just fundamentally too flawed to be anything more than a tier 3 deck. It has a lot of explosive power but there has to be SO many things working in your favor. A high reward, but high risk game plan. It's like a bad combo deck because it needs the right amount of pieces at the right time. And even when you DO get the right pieces, it doesn't feel like a "I win" button presenting itself to you.
Why shouldn't I just cast a turn 3 lingering souls that grant me 4 tokens (WITH evasion) rather than trying to sculpt a deck where I need the right combination of removals and token producers just to get 3-4 tokens (with no evasion). Let's be real: prowess isn't THAT good in the mid-stages of the game. Cards like Pyromancer and Mentor just don't thrive without good cantrips, protection (counterspells), and hand manipulation. Hence they are both amazing in Vintage and to some degree, Legacy.
The only successful Mardu build I ever tested was taking a BW Token shell, taking out the useless cards, and splashing red for bolt, helix, and all the good sideboard cards. Might not sound like much but the deck desperately needed more early game interaction and removals to preserve life from bitterblossom.
To be fair, Mardu Nahiri (mardhiri? nahirdu?) has only just begun being toyed around with. Brewers (including myself and others involved in this thread) have been working on Mardu midrange for months, if not years, before we started seeing results in large events. I feel a better comparison between the two would be dedicated testing against the current field. Who does better game 1 against CoCo Abzan? Tron? Burn or the new Jeskai?. Since both Mardus have access to the same (amazing) sideboard options, game 2 is a not quite as telling. However, dedicated hate is brutal against the token version, I can vouch personally that illness in the ranks is a nightmare, and night of souls betrayal is even worse. How is the match against each other? Unfortunately, I don't have the time to put into finding these answers right now, but while I do agree that the differences between the two are fundamental, I personally believe both are completely viable in today's modern. Hell, the Nahiri package is slim enough that one might get away with running a hybrid.
Out of curiosity, do you run anthems in your tokens build? Why or why not?
Yes there are cards that CAN hate out the token-centric build. There are cards that can hate out any deck ever built. The question is do those cards see play against those decks, and are they efficient enough to counteract the deck? The answer to the first is "almost never" and the answer to the second is "probably, maybe."
I don't run any anthems because I've found they can be better served being active cards.
On the other hand, I believe Mardu Tokens (the one with pyromancer and mentor) is just fundamentally too flawed to be anything more than a tier 3 deck. It has a lot of explosive power but there has to be SO many things working in your favor. A high reward, but high risk game plan. It's like a bad combo deck because it needs the right amount of pieces at the right time. And even when you DO get the right pieces, it doesn't feel like a "I win" button presenting itself to you.
Why shouldn't I just cast a turn 3 lingering souls that grant me 4 tokens (WITH evasion) rather than trying to sculpt a deck where I need the right combination of removals and token producers just to get 3-4 tokens (with no evasion). Let's be real: prowess isn't THAT good in the mid-stages of the game. Cards like Pyromancer and Mentor just don't thrive without good cantrips, protection (counterspells), and hand manipulation. Hence they are both amazing in Vintage and to some degree, Legacy.
The only successful Mardu build I ever tested was taking a BW Token shell, taking out the useless cards, and splashing red for bolt, helix, and all the good sideboard cards. Might not sound like much but the deck desperately needed more early game interaction and removals to preserve life from bitterblossom.
That's the thing you seem to be either ignoring or forgetting - this deck plays spells that are inherently efficient. Enough removal and a few burn spells and even Bob swinging 5 or 6 times will get the game won. Pyro and mentor make the deck win quicker by making the inherently efficient spells we cast even MORE efficient, allowing us to win the game in 15 minutes rather than 35. Illness in the ranks is a pain in the ass, but if you're good with the deck it should not be hard to win through it.
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That's the thing you seem to be either ignoring or forgetting - this deck plays spells that are inherently efficient. Enough removal and a few burn spells and even Bob swinging 5 or 6 times will get the game won. Pyro and mentor make the deck win quicker by making the inherently efficient spells we cast even MORE efficient, allowing us to win the game in 15 minutes rather than 35. Illness in the ranks is a pain in the ass, but if you're good with the deck it should not be hard to win through it.
I'm not sure what you mean by the word "efficient". The removals in Mardu do go "1-for-1" but that's not exactly efficiency. If you cast a path to exile on a wormcoil engine or a bolt on a dark confidant, yes that's efficiency since your opponent loses tempo and used more mana than you, which could be relevant with other spells in hand. But it's ultimately still a 1-for-1. Decks like BW Tokens or CoCo company have more than enough ways to make 1-for-1 removal very inefficient.
Also consider that aggro decks run more threats than you run removal, or in the case of Affinity, can put out multiple creatures at a time. What they're gaining is board presence and a clock, something that you can't regain without a board wipe or life gain or board presence of your own. The number one complaint about Mardu is that it lacks a good 2 drop - a Tarmogoyf in other words. We have all this removal but no clock to utilize it. Removal is bad against combo and disruption stops them for a couple turns at most, meaning we need to finish our opponents very quickly before they top deck. You'd be optimistic to think Mentor/ Pyromancer are fast enough for Modern.
What you're describing is an ideal scenario where you have mentor/ pyromancer survive and have enough removals to make use of them. It doesn't solve any of the issues I brought up (example: why not just play lingering souls, which are just as good regardless of whether you have removals in hand). Drawing multiple lingering souls is fantastic; drawing multiple mentor/ pyromancer is gamble depending on your other cards and opponent's hand.
Also note that other decks' removal are too impactful against your build. Hand disruption can only do so much. Losing a mentor/ pyromancer while you have the necessary fuels in hand is like getting punched in your groin. Jund/ Abzan not only run more threats but also have more resilient threats. Their removal package isn't THAT much worse than Mardu's, and arguably, it's sometimes better. Mardu might get a slight buff in removals but it loses out A LOT on board pressure.
One Tarmogoyf = the equivalent of a mentor + 2/3 tokens. Depending on the board state, sometimes worse and sometimes better. The whole concept of "going wide" is weak because often the tokens just get chump blocked unfavorably. If the tokens were flying... it's a different story.
Well, Jeskai doesn't have a Tarmogoyf either and wins
I posted in a thread for Mardu Midrange/Control some months ago but can't find it right now It used "big" creatures like GGD, Olivia and Pia & Kiran Nalaar, some Planeswalkers like Ajani and LotV, and the regular Mardu package (Path, Bolt, Helix, Souls, discard). I like the aggroish build with Dark Confidant and the other dudes, but I prefer playing control... When I first saw Nahiri+Emrakul, it seemed like a EDH idea, but I started to like it: She can ultimate before Ajani, both can stop a tapped big creature, and she provides filtering (like Chandra, Pyromancer or Outpost Siege).
I don't think that the concept of going wide is wrong, you are considering it against Jund/Abzan, and you are always going to lose that: it isn't as fast as Affinity/Infect/Burn, and not as midrange as them. I just like the control route.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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I've been playing a lot of eldrazi in different forms. This is seeming to be my last stop on the train. I love how it plays. lot of early game plays that curve usually nicely into the midrange beaters. once i get a guy or 2 on the field I usually have to decide how to proceed.
1) play more eldrazi, clear the path and beat down.
2) use walkers as bait for removal and disruption and beat down.
3) use fat eldrazi butts to protect walkers and have the women take me to victory.
all in all it's a pretty typical midrange deck but man, if you have never chained smashers into more smashers you are seriously missing out. most decks in modern can't stop that. That card has won me soooo many games of magic. I like in this shell nahiri can fetch relevant things other than emrakul. This deck isn't perfect as sometimes the mana can be kind of awkward. I haven't found the right mix yet but it's pretty close. a "4 color" deck will do that at times. I think I need to get some fast lands in there. I've also found that sometimes nahiri and liliana fight each other in terms of their plusses. Maybe it's not that big of a deal, I need to test more. One thing I've been wanting to add is a goblin dark dwellers. On a flavor standpoint, I love the deck has ladies at its headliners
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I would never fetch anything other than emrakul unless I couldn't. To that point, how am I adding a different strategy? This is midrange by definition, you don't need synergy to make these cards insane. The only synergy those decks have is the displacer, which you could still run. The reason I want to play them is they fit the strategy I'm playing. I don't have to tell you mardu has the best removal and disruption. How do you stop a smasher after discard, TKS and liliana + removal. Are they better than kalitas and P&K? maybe, maybe not.
GDD is a pet card, but he is indeed going a little deep
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Well, Jeskai doesn't have a Tarmogoyf either and wins
I posted in a thread for Mardu Midrange/Control some months ago but can't find it right now It used "big" creatures like GGD, Olivia and Pia & Kiran Nalaar, some Planeswalkers like Ajani and LotV, and the regular Mardu package (Path, Bolt, Helix, Souls, discard). I like the aggroish build with Dark Confidant and the other dudes, but I prefer playing control... When I first saw Nahiri+Emrakul, it seemed like a EDH idea, but I started to like it: She can ultimate before Ajani, both can stop a tapped big creature, and she provides filtering (like Chandra, Pyromancer or Outpost Siege).
I don't think that the concept of going wide is wrong, you are considering it against Jund/Abzan, and you are always going to lose that: it isn't as fast as Affinity/Infect/Burn, and not as midrange as them. I just like the control route.
Lets create a new Mardu Control Thread!
Jeskai functions as a completely different deck so I don't know why you're bringing this up.
Modern is an extremely fast format. The reason why control does not dominate the modern meta is because it's simply too slow at finding the right answers to threats and utilizing gained tempo from removal. Look at legacy: you have powerful counterspells for opponent's top decks, deck manipulation to find answers, and a quick way to finish the game at late stages.
If you look at the successful control deck ( Jeskai Control and Grixis Control) they all have these elements in common. Mardu control doesn't do anything particularly better than what these two decks can offer.
I don't think the concept of going wide is "wrong" but rather "flawed" in the context of Mentor/ Pyromancer builds. If you want to go wide, you want flyers.
I've been playing a lot of eldrazi in different forms. This is seeming to be my last stop on the train. I love how it plays. lot of early game plays that curve usually nicely into the midrange beaters. once i get a guy or 2 on the field I usually have to decide how to proceed.
1) play more eldrazi, clear the path and beat down.
2) use walkers as bait for removal and disruption and beat down.
3) use fat eldrazi butts to protect walkers and have the women take me to victory.
all in all it's a pretty typical midrange deck but man, if you have never chained smashers into more smashers you are seriously missing out. most decks in modern can't stop that. That card has won me soooo many games of magic. I like in this shell nahiri can fetch relevant things other than emrakul. This deck isn't perfect as sometimes the mana can be kind of awkward. I haven't found the right mix yet but it's pretty close. a "4 color" deck will do that at times. I think I need to get some fast lands in there. I've also found that sometimes nahiri and liliana fight each other in terms of their plusses. Maybe it's not that big of a deal, I need to test more. One thing I've been wanting to add is a goblin dark dwellers. On a flavor standpoint, I love the deck has ladies at its headliners
Dude you're running 22 lands in a 4-color deck, that has a fairly high cmc curve, and with no ramp.
Jamming a bunch of midrange creatures in a deck with a lot of removal is already perfected by another archetype: BGx (Abzan/ Jund). Mardu has the best removals but it's not that much better than BGx. What you lose out on is a fast cheap turn 2 threat that either gets you card advantage or put pressure on the board. These decks utilize removal better since their threats can start chirping away at life total without being blocked.
Why not for example, run Tron instead? They run board wipes to go 2+ for 1 against aggro and can go big much more quickly. A turn 3 wormcoil engine or Karn is going to be fairly consistent to bring out, and very resilient to threats/ removals.
If you just want to be creative, I applaud you. If you want to make it more competitive, I suggest you try to ask yourself "what can this deck that other similar decks can't do, and what does it lose in return?".
Well, Jeskai doesn't have a Tarmogoyf either and wins
I posted in a thread for Mardu Midrange/Control some months ago but can't find it right now It used "big" creatures like GGD, Olivia and Pia & Kiran Nalaar, some Planeswalkers like Ajani and LotV, and the regular Mardu package (Path, Bolt, Helix, Souls, discard). I like the aggroish build with Dark Confidant and the other dudes, but I prefer playing control... When I first saw Nahiri+Emrakul, it seemed like a EDH idea, but I started to like it: She can ultimate before Ajani, both can stop a tapped big creature, and she provides filtering (like Chandra, Pyromancer or Outpost Siege).
I don't think that the concept of going wide is wrong, you are considering it against Jund/Abzan, and you are always going to lose that: it isn't as fast as Affinity/Infect/Burn, and not as midrange as them. I just like the control route.
Lets create a new Mardu Control Thread!
Jeskai functions as a completely different deck so I don't know why you're bringing this up.
Modern is an extremely fast format. The reason why control does not dominate the modern meta is because it's simply too slow at finding the right answers to threats and utilizing gained tempo from removal. Look at legacy: you have powerful counterspells for opponent's top decks, deck manipulation to find answers, and a quick way to finish the game at late stages.
If you look at the successful control deck ( Jeskai Control and Grixis Control) they all have these elements in common. Mardu control doesn't do anything particularly better than what these two decks can offer.
I don't think the concept of going wide is "wrong" but rather "flawed" in the context of Mentor/ Pyromancer builds. If you want to go wide, you want flyers.
I was bringing it because you don't need Tarmogoyf to have a clock. Nahiri can provide a decent clock (2 turn after you drop it, like Progenitus ), it's not easy to kill/stop, and can do other things if you need to. And Miracles in Legacy doesn't have a quick way to finish the game, usually
The way I see it, Modern is about creatures. FoW is great because it handles combo decks, but is terrible against fair strategies where you don't really have a key card, just a lot of relevant ones. (but that's another deck in another format, lets keep it Modern)
In Modern, most popular decks (or at least the ones you want to have a game against) run creatures that you need to kill. Mardu and Jeskai have Path and Helix (and good Burn hate), and Grixis doesn't. Grixis and Mardu have disruption, but Jeskai only have counterspells. And only Mardu can play Lingering Souls, good against the fast decks like Affinity and Infect. This isn't coming from someone that's a Mardu fan, or have anything with this particular color combination. I just play Jeskai and wish I have Lingering Souls, if I play Esper I miss Lightning Bolt, in Grixis I feel like I don't have the good white SB cards... I'm not saying that Mardu has all I want, I do think it lacks CA, and it needed a clock or good and resilent creatures (not aggro ones, Mardu has those).
I don't want control to dominate the meta (or any deck, really). I just think that it's good vs creature decks, bad against combo (including Tron), and you can tweak it to have an edge against other midrange decks.
And Akalah, I wouldn't play Liliana with that manabase. I do think you can play a 3-color Eldrazi deck (that would be 4 color), but you need to build it right. Also, I'm not sure if the Eldrazi shell and the Nahiri shell (even if it has Emrakul) work well together.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Well, Jeskai doesn't have a Tarmogoyf either and wins
I posted in a thread for Mardu Midrange/Control some months ago but can't find it right now It used "big" creatures like GGD, Olivia and Pia & Kiran Nalaar, some Planeswalkers like Ajani and LotV, and the regular Mardu package (Path, Bolt, Helix, Souls, discard). I like the aggroish build with Dark Confidant and the other dudes, but I prefer playing control... When I first saw Nahiri+Emrakul, it seemed like a EDH idea, but I started to like it: She can ultimate before Ajani, both can stop a tapped big creature, and she provides filtering (like Chandra, Pyromancer or Outpost Siege).
I don't think that the concept of going wide is wrong, you are considering it against Jund/Abzan, and you are always going to lose that: it isn't as fast as Affinity/Infect/Burn, and not as midrange as them. I just like the control route.
Lets create a new Mardu Control Thread!
Jeskai functions as a completely different deck so I don't know why you're bringing this up.
Modern is an extremely fast format. The reason why control does not dominate the modern meta is because it's simply too slow at finding the right answers to threats and utilizing gained tempo from removal. Look at legacy: you have powerful counterspells for opponent's top decks, deck manipulation to find answers, and a quick way to finish the game at late stages.
If you look at the successful control deck ( Jeskai Control and Grixis Control) they all have these elements in common. Mardu control doesn't do anything particularly better than what these two decks can offer.
I don't think the concept of going wide is "wrong" but rather "flawed" in the context of Mentor/ Pyromancer builds. If you want to go wide, you want flyers.
I was bringing it because you don't need Tarmogoyf to have a clock. Nahiri can provide a decent clock (2 turn after you drop it, like Progenitus ), it's not easy to kill/stop, and can do other things if you need to. And Miracles in Legacy doesn't have a quick way to finish the game, usually
The way I see it, Modern is about creatures. FoW is great because it handles combo decks, but is terrible against fair strategies where you don't really have a key card, just a lot of relevant ones. (but that's another deck in another format, lets keep it Modern)
In Modern, most popular decks (or at least the ones you want to have a game against) run creatures that you need to kill. Mardu and Jeskai have Path and Helix (and good Burn hate), and Grixis doesn't. Grixis and Mardu have disruption, but Jeskai only have counterspells. And only Mardu can play Lingering Souls, good against the fast decks like Affinity and Infect. This isn't coming from someone that's a Mardu fan, or have anything with this particular color combination. I just play Jeskai and wish I have Lingering Souls, if I play Esper I miss Lightning Bolt, in Grixis I feel like I don't have the good white SB cards... I'm not saying that Mardu has all I want, I do think it lacks CA, and it needed a clock or good and resilent creatures (not aggro ones, Mardu has those).
I don't want control to dominate the meta (or any deck, really). I just think that it's good vs creature decks, bad against combo (including Tron), and you can tweak it to have an edge against other midrange decks.
And Akalah, I wouldn't play Liliana with that manabase. I do think you can play a 3-color Eldrazi deck (that would be 4 color), but you need to build it right. Also, I'm not sure if the Eldrazi shell and the Nahiri shell (even if it has Emrakul) work well together.
Jeskai doesn't need tarmogoyf because their threats only come in at the late stages and can finish quickly (celestial colonade) or you have options to burn the opponent out with bolt snap bolt. Mardu doesn't have the same kind of tools to provide a clock. You can run a big 4-5 drop creature but no counter spells to protect it (Grixis). Which is one reason why a Mardu Delve deck doesn't exist and a Grixis Delve does. Your oversimplifying analysis of what each deck has in their colors doesn't take synergies into account. Mardu has too many pieces that don't fit together for many reasons I listed before. Kind of the same problem with Sultai.
Well, Jeskai doesn't have a Tarmogoyf either and wins
I posted in a thread for Mardu Midrange/Control some months ago but can't find it right now It used "big" creatures like GGD, Olivia and Pia & Kiran Nalaar, some Planeswalkers like Ajani and LotV, and the regular Mardu package (Path, Bolt, Helix, Souls, discard). I like the aggroish build with Dark Confidant and the other dudes, but I prefer playing control... When I first saw Nahiri+Emrakul, it seemed like a EDH idea, but I started to like it: She can ultimate before Ajani, both can stop a tapped big creature, and she provides filtering (like Chandra, Pyromancer or Outpost Siege).
I don't think that the concept of going wide is wrong, you are considering it against Jund/Abzan, and you are always going to lose that: it isn't as fast as Affinity/Infect/Burn, and not as midrange as them. I just like the control route.
Lets create a new Mardu Control Thread!
Jeskai functions as a completely different deck so I don't know why you're bringing this up.
Modern is an extremely fast format. The reason why control does not dominate the modern meta is because it's simply too slow at finding the right answers to threats and utilizing gained tempo from removal. Look at legacy: you have powerful counterspells for opponent's top decks, deck manipulation to find answers, and a quick way to finish the game at late stages.
If you look at the successful control deck ( Jeskai Control and Grixis Control) they all have these elements in common. Mardu control doesn't do anything particularly better than what these two decks can offer.
I don't think the concept of going wide is "wrong" but rather "flawed" in the context of Mentor/ Pyromancer builds. If you want to go wide, you want flyers.
I was bringing it because you don't need Tarmogoyf to have a clock. Nahiri can provide a decent clock (2 turn after you drop it, like Progenitus ), it's not easy to kill/stop, and can do other things if you need to. And Miracles in Legacy doesn't have a quick way to finish the game, usually
The way I see it, Modern is about creatures. FoW is great because it handles combo decks, but is terrible against fair strategies where you don't really have a key card, just a lot of relevant ones. (but that's another deck in another format, lets keep it Modern)
In Modern, most popular decks (or at least the ones you want to have a game against) run creatures that you need to kill. Mardu and Jeskai have Path and Helix (and good Burn hate), and Grixis doesn't. Grixis and Mardu have disruption, but Jeskai only have counterspells. And only Mardu can play Lingering Souls, good against the fast decks like Affinity and Infect. This isn't coming from someone that's a Mardu fan, or have anything with this particular color combination. I just play Jeskai and wish I have Lingering Souls, if I play Esper I miss Lightning Bolt, in Grixis I feel like I don't have the good white SB cards... I'm not saying that Mardu has all I want, I do think it lacks CA, and it needed a clock or good and resilent creatures (not aggro ones, Mardu has those).
I don't want control to dominate the meta (or any deck, really). I just think that it's good vs creature decks, bad against combo (including Tron), and you can tweak it to have an edge against other midrange decks.
And Akalah, I wouldn't play Liliana with that manabase. I do think you can play a 3-color Eldrazi deck (that would be 4 color), but you need to build it right. Also, I'm not sure if the Eldrazi shell and the Nahiri shell (even if it has Emrakul) work well together.
Jeskai doesn't need tarmogoyf because their threats only come in at the late stages and can finish quickly (celestial colonade) or you have options to burn the opponent out with bolt snap bolt. Mardu doesn't have the same kind of tools to provide a clock. You can run a big 4-5 drop creature but no counter spells to protect it (Grixis). Which is one reason why a Mardu Delve deck doesn't exist and a Grixis Delve does. Your oversimplifying analysis of what each deck has in their colors doesn't take synergies into account. Mardu has too many pieces that don't fit together for many reasons I listed before. Kind of the same problem with Sultai.
Well, I don't agree with you but I respect your opinion!
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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George White obviously had success with it, but I really don't like 4 path with 2 Kalitas, and running only 2 lilies. As for card draw, what do people think about faithless looting vs. sign in blood vs. painful truths? Faithless looting certainly has great synergy with Lily, Nahiri, and Souls, but it also makes grafdigger's cage even better against us, and with that card doing well against Abzan Coco, UWR control, and GY decks, I expect that sideboard card to be on the rise. Sign in blood could be used to kill the opponent when we go the burn route, but double black on turn 2 might be hard. Painful truths creates the most card advantage, but it also cost the most mana.
Also, does bloodghast have a place in this deck? He has synergy with Kalitas, Lily, Nahiri, and Faithless looting, if we run it, but then again the deck is even worse against graffdigger's cage.
EDIT: Also 3 leyline of sanctity seems like an odd choice. Wouldn't Jund side out discard against us? And there are pleanty of other cards for burn, like kitchen finks and timely reinforcements.
I like night's whisper more than sign in blood, the double black, IMHO, should be avoided if at all possible. I understand pointing it at an opponent as an option is nice, but the more painful you make your mana base, the more burn, affinity, and aggro in general smiles. I've never considered faithless looting, anyone done testing on that?
On the Leyline of Sanctitys in the sb, those are definitely in there for Burn & splash hate against AdNaus and Valakut (notice there are no other cards in the board for Burn). Normally in the Mardu vs Jund MU both sides would take out their discard, but in the Nahiri-Control builds that might not be true since Nahiri builds are threat-light (ie weaker topdecks, might want to keep the discard in) & BGx might have a very hard time dealing with a resolved Nahiri so Thoughtseize becomes more important (either way, I really don't think that MU has anything to do with the Leylines).
On Bloodghast, I think the deck is much too slow and controlling to want a creature that cannot block (there could be a Rakdos / Mardu home for him, but it'd be a drastic departure from typical midrange / control).
As for card draw, Painful Truths is net +2 cards, Sign in Blood is net +1, and Faithless Looting is net -1 card, so I'd start my evaluation there. I don't think the deck has nearly enough ways to get value off of Looting (like a dredge or reanimator deck might) to compensate for the card disadvantage. Sign in Blood should just be Night's Whisper, and Truths is clearly stronger, so the question there is how much you value the mana efficiency. I've been testing Night's Whisper since the deck is already overloaded with powerful 3-drops, but Truths may be the correct choice and I think both are valid.
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
2 Godless Shrine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
4 Monastery Mentor
Spells (28)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Helix
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Painful Truths
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lingering Souls
2 Crackling Doom
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Slaughter Games
2 Stony Silence
1 Damnation
1 Duress
1 Murderous Cut
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
Round 1: vs Affinity
On the play my turn 1 Thoughtseize finds Ravager (which I take) and some other fun stuff. Zealous Persecution proves to be a huge blowout after he empties his hand, and monks and elementals clean up the rest.
SB: +2 stony silence, +2 crumble to dust || -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Lightning Bolt
Game 2 I open stony silence which drops turn two, and he can't find disenchant before I run him out of the game.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2: vs Abzan
He wins the play and goes turn one fetch, shock, thoughtseize to catch me with a 4-lander, rips out my path to exile and resolves two 3/4 goyfs in short order. Lingering Souls stems the tide for a little but not long enough.
SB: +1 Crackling Doom +1 Damnation +1 Murderous Cut || -1 Kolaghan's Command -2 Painful Truths
Game 2 I fire off turn 1 Inquisition only to find 3 lands, liliana of the veil, and 3 seige rhinos. He finds the fourth land on curve and crashes me out.
1-1 (2-2)
Round 3: vs Big Red
My turn 1 shock/thoughtseize reveals the following hand: 2 Mountain, Ball Lightning, Koth of the Hammer, Blood Moon, Pyroclasm, Magma Jet. With mountain as my only basic in hand I rip out the blood moon and start playing creatures to force burns spells on them. Ball Lightning knocks me to 10, Searing blaze on pyro to 9, bolt to 6 but now he's down to one card. I resolve a second young pyromancer and Inquisition his last card out for an elemental, he tops thunderbreak regent, I EoT path it going to 3. Serve in for 4 and show two bolts for exactly enough damage. And he had the 3-damage spell on top of his deck.
SB: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Painful Truths || +2 Crackling Doom, +1 Duress +1 Obzedat, Ghost Chieftain
Game 2 I again catch him with a blood moon in his opening hand and rip it out. Burn spells knock me to 10 before I get to 5 mana for obzedat, and he can't find two instant-speed 3-damage spells to knock him out.
2-1 (4-2)
Round 4: vs Affinity
Unlike the first affinity player who was adding white for Tempered Steel, this one was only playing a single island for thoughtcast. A flurry of discard effects (2 thoughtseize, 1 IoK, 1 Kommand) leaves him with only ornithopters and signal pests against my wider board of prowess monks.
SB: +2 stony silence, +2 crumble to dust || -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Lightning Bolt
Game 2 I mull to 6 to find stony silence, land it turn 2, and zealous persecution turn 3 after he overextends to leave him with no hand and no board. He scoops.
3-1 (6-2)
All in all I think it went rather well. I probably need Wear//Tear in the board over Rakdos Charm based on the other decks I saw, plus it occurred to me after the burn match that I have no way to remove a resolved blood moon. (OOPS!) I also am considering putting 1 Rest in Peace back in if the coco and abzan lists continue to show up, as a way to neuter goyf and scooze.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Mardu is a control deck. It picks off stuff in the early game and wins with late game inevitability. Both versions have that ability, yes, but the way they go about it is so fundamentally different that I don't think they're worth being put together in the same thread.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Out of curiosity, do you run anthems in your tokens build? Why or why not?
I agree Jeskai is probably better for a Nahiri shell. Going Mardu gives you hand disruption over counterspells. Disruptions can save you a couple turns but it's useless if you don't have a clock to abuse that tempo gain. Nahiri could win the game in 3 turns (if all things go well) but you are at the mercy of the opponent's top decks. And in terms of removal, Jeskai is just as good due to snapcaster mage.
On the other hand, I believe Mardu Tokens (the one with pyromancer and mentor) is just fundamentally too flawed to be anything more than a tier 3 deck. It has a lot of explosive power but there has to be SO many things working in your favor. A high reward, but high risk game plan. It's like a bad combo deck because it needs the right amount of pieces at the right time. And even when you DO get the right pieces, it doesn't feel like a "I win" button presenting itself to you.
Why shouldn't I just cast a turn 3 lingering souls that grant me 4 tokens (WITH evasion) rather than trying to sculpt a deck where I need the right combination of removals and token producers just to get 3-4 tokens (with no evasion). Let's be real: prowess isn't THAT good in the mid-stages of the game. Cards like Pyromancer and Mentor just don't thrive without good cantrips, protection (counterspells), and hand manipulation. Hence they are both amazing in Vintage and to some degree, Legacy.
The only successful Mardu build I ever tested was taking a BW Token shell, taking out the useless cards, and splashing red for bolt, helix, and all the good sideboard cards. Might not sound like much but the deck desperately needed more early game interaction and removals to preserve life from bitterblossom.
Yes there are cards that CAN hate out the token-centric build. There are cards that can hate out any deck ever built. The question is do those cards see play against those decks, and are they efficient enough to counteract the deck? The answer to the first is "almost never" and the answer to the second is "probably, maybe."
I don't run any anthems because I've found they can be better served being active cards.
That's the thing you seem to be either ignoring or forgetting - this deck plays spells that are inherently efficient. Enough removal and a few burn spells and even Bob swinging 5 or 6 times will get the game won. Pyro and mentor make the deck win quicker by making the inherently efficient spells we cast even MORE efficient, allowing us to win the game in 15 minutes rather than 35. Illness in the ranks is a pain in the ass, but if you're good with the deck it should not be hard to win through it.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I'm not sure what you mean by the word "efficient". The removals in Mardu do go "1-for-1" but that's not exactly efficiency. If you cast a path to exile on a wormcoil engine or a bolt on a dark confidant, yes that's efficiency since your opponent loses tempo and used more mana than you, which could be relevant with other spells in hand. But it's ultimately still a 1-for-1. Decks like BW Tokens or CoCo company have more than enough ways to make 1-for-1 removal very inefficient.
Also consider that aggro decks run more threats than you run removal, or in the case of Affinity, can put out multiple creatures at a time. What they're gaining is board presence and a clock, something that you can't regain without a board wipe or life gain or board presence of your own. The number one complaint about Mardu is that it lacks a good 2 drop - a Tarmogoyf in other words. We have all this removal but no clock to utilize it. Removal is bad against combo and disruption stops them for a couple turns at most, meaning we need to finish our opponents very quickly before they top deck. You'd be optimistic to think Mentor/ Pyromancer are fast enough for Modern.
What you're describing is an ideal scenario where you have mentor/ pyromancer survive and have enough removals to make use of them. It doesn't solve any of the issues I brought up (example: why not just play lingering souls, which are just as good regardless of whether you have removals in hand). Drawing multiple lingering souls is fantastic; drawing multiple mentor/ pyromancer is gamble depending on your other cards and opponent's hand.
Also note that other decks' removal are too impactful against your build. Hand disruption can only do so much. Losing a mentor/ pyromancer while you have the necessary fuels in hand is like getting punched in your groin. Jund/ Abzan not only run more threats but also have more resilient threats. Their removal package isn't THAT much worse than Mardu's, and arguably, it's sometimes better. Mardu might get a slight buff in removals but it loses out A LOT on board pressure.
One Tarmogoyf = the equivalent of a mentor + 2/3 tokens. Depending on the board state, sometimes worse and sometimes better. The whole concept of "going wide" is weak because often the tokens just get chump blocked unfavorably. If the tokens were flying... it's a different story.
I posted in a thread for Mardu Midrange/Control some months ago but can't find it right now It used "big" creatures like GGD, Olivia and Pia & Kiran Nalaar, some Planeswalkers like Ajani and LotV, and the regular Mardu package (Path, Bolt, Helix, Souls, discard). I like the aggroish build with Dark Confidant and the other dudes, but I prefer playing control... When I first saw Nahiri+Emrakul, it seemed like a EDH idea, but I started to like it: She can ultimate before Ajani, both can stop a tapped big creature, and she provides filtering (like Chandra, Pyromancer or Outpost Siege).
I don't think that the concept of going wide is wrong, you are considering it against Jund/Abzan, and you are always going to lose that: it isn't as fast as Affinity/Infect/Burn, and not as midrange as them. I just like the control route.
Lets create a new Mardu Control Thread!
3 matter reshaper
4 thought-knot seer
3 reality smasher
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
spells
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
3 terminate
1 kolaghan's command
3 lingering souls
3 liliana of the veil
4 nahiri, the harbinger
4 eldrazi temple
1 arid mesa
2 bloodstained mire
2 marsh flats
1 sacred foundry
1 godless shrine
1 blood crypt
2 swamp
1 plains
1 mountain
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 vault of the archangel
2 battlefield forge
2 caves of koilos
1 spellskite
1 wear // tear
2 lightning helix
1 rakdos charm
1 rest in peace
2 stony silence
2 timely reinforcements
2 anger of the gods
1 kolaghan's command
1 crumble to dust
1 slaughter games
I've been playing a lot of eldrazi in different forms. This is seeming to be my last stop on the train. I love how it plays. lot of early game plays that curve usually nicely into the midrange beaters. once i get a guy or 2 on the field I usually have to decide how to proceed.
1) play more eldrazi, clear the path and beat down.
2) use walkers as bait for removal and disruption and beat down.
3) use fat eldrazi butts to protect walkers and have the women take me to victory.
all in all it's a pretty typical midrange deck but man, if you have never chained smashers into more smashers you are seriously missing out. most decks in modern can't stop that. That card has won me soooo many games of magic. I like in this shell nahiri can fetch relevant things other than emrakul. This deck isn't perfect as sometimes the mana can be kind of awkward. I haven't found the right mix yet but it's pretty close. a "4 color" deck will do that at times. I think I need to get some fast lands in there. I've also found that sometimes nahiri and liliana fight each other in terms of their plusses. Maybe it's not that big of a deal, I need to test more. One thing I've been wanting to add is a goblin dark dwellers. On a flavor standpoint, I love the deck has ladies at its headliners
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
GDD is a pet card, but he is indeed going a little deep
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Jeskai functions as a completely different deck so I don't know why you're bringing this up.
Modern is an extremely fast format. The reason why control does not dominate the modern meta is because it's simply too slow at finding the right answers to threats and utilizing gained tempo from removal. Look at legacy: you have powerful counterspells for opponent's top decks, deck manipulation to find answers, and a quick way to finish the game at late stages.
If you look at the successful control deck ( Jeskai Control and Grixis Control) they all have these elements in common. Mardu control doesn't do anything particularly better than what these two decks can offer.
I don't think the concept of going wide is "wrong" but rather "flawed" in the context of Mentor/ Pyromancer builds. If you want to go wide, you want flyers.
Dude you're running 22 lands in a 4-color deck, that has a fairly high cmc curve, and with no ramp.
Jamming a bunch of midrange creatures in a deck with a lot of removal is already perfected by another archetype: BGx (Abzan/ Jund). Mardu has the best removals but it's not that much better than BGx. What you lose out on is a fast cheap turn 2 threat that either gets you card advantage or put pressure on the board. These decks utilize removal better since their threats can start chirping away at life total without being blocked.
Why not for example, run Tron instead? They run board wipes to go 2+ for 1 against aggro and can go big much more quickly. A turn 3 wormcoil engine or Karn is going to be fairly consistent to bring out, and very resilient to threats/ removals.
If you just want to be creative, I applaud you. If you want to make it more competitive, I suggest you try to ask yourself "what can this deck that other similar decks can't do, and what does it lose in return?".
I was bringing it because you don't need Tarmogoyf to have a clock. Nahiri can provide a decent clock (2 turn after you drop it, like Progenitus ), it's not easy to kill/stop, and can do other things if you need to. And Miracles in Legacy doesn't have a quick way to finish the game, usually
The way I see it, Modern is about creatures. FoW is great because it handles combo decks, but is terrible against fair strategies where you don't really have a key card, just a lot of relevant ones. (but that's another deck in another format, lets keep it Modern)
In Modern, most popular decks (or at least the ones you want to have a game against) run creatures that you need to kill. Mardu and Jeskai have Path and Helix (and good Burn hate), and Grixis doesn't. Grixis and Mardu have disruption, but Jeskai only have counterspells. And only Mardu can play Lingering Souls, good against the fast decks like Affinity and Infect. This isn't coming from someone that's a Mardu fan, or have anything with this particular color combination. I just play Jeskai and wish I have Lingering Souls, if I play Esper I miss Lightning Bolt, in Grixis I feel like I don't have the good white SB cards... I'm not saying that Mardu has all I want, I do think it lacks CA, and it needed a clock or good and resilent creatures (not aggro ones, Mardu has those).
I don't want control to dominate the meta (or any deck, really). I just think that it's good vs creature decks, bad against combo (including Tron), and you can tweak it to have an edge against other midrange decks.
And Akalah, I wouldn't play Liliana with that manabase. I do think you can play a 3-color Eldrazi deck (that would be 4 color), but you need to build it right. Also, I'm not sure if the Eldrazi shell and the Nahiri shell (even if it has Emrakul) work well together.
Edit: found the old thread I was talking about! http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/597581-why-not-a-mardu-midrange-control-deck-in-modern
Jeskai doesn't need tarmogoyf because their threats only come in at the late stages and can finish quickly (celestial colonade) or you have options to burn the opponent out with bolt snap bolt. Mardu doesn't have the same kind of tools to provide a clock. You can run a big 4-5 drop creature but no counter spells to protect it (Grixis). Which is one reason why a Mardu Delve deck doesn't exist and a Grixis Delve does. Your oversimplifying analysis of what each deck has in their colors doesn't take synergies into account. Mardu has too many pieces that don't fit together for many reasons I listed before. Kind of the same problem with Sultai.
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
3 terminate
4 Liliana of the veil
4 lingering souls
4 nahiri, the harbinger
1 Ajani Vengeant
Creatures 7
4 kitchen finks
2 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 blackcleave cliffs
4 marsh flats
2 bloodstained mire
2 arid mesa
1 blood crypt
1 godless shrine
1 sacred foundry
2 swamp
2 plains
2 fetid heath
2 shambling vent
1 vault of the archangel
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 hide // seek
2 stony silence
2 fulminator mage
2 aven mindcensor
2 zealous persecution
2 rakdos charm
1 thundermaw hellkite
1 olivia voldaren
1 sorin, solemn visitor
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Well, I don't agree with you but I respect your opinion!
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=103782
Also, does bloodghast have a place in this deck? He has synergy with Kalitas, Lily, Nahiri, and Faithless looting, if we run it, but then again the deck is even worse against graffdigger's cage.
EDIT: Also 3 leyline of sanctity seems like an odd choice. Wouldn't Jund side out discard against us? And there are pleanty of other cards for burn, like kitchen finks and timely reinforcements.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
On Bloodghast, I think the deck is much too slow and controlling to want a creature that cannot block (there could be a Rakdos / Mardu home for him, but it'd be a drastic departure from typical midrange / control).
As for card draw, Painful Truths is net +2 cards, Sign in Blood is net +1, and Faithless Looting is net -1 card, so I'd start my evaluation there. I don't think the deck has nearly enough ways to get value off of Looting (like a dredge or reanimator deck might) to compensate for the card disadvantage. Sign in Blood should just be Night's Whisper, and Truths is clearly stronger, so the question there is how much you value the mana efficiency. I've been testing Night's Whisper since the deck is already overloaded with powerful 3-drops, but Truths may be the correct choice and I think both are valid.