Wear/tear or hide/seek seem like important sideboard cards to me. Maybe not both, but atleast one or the other.
Both rakdos charm and anger of the gods give you a lot of life with sfgm. Bonfire of the damned might be a better choice, however.
Radiant flames is worse in a deck with a lot of one-toughness tokens.
Radiant flames would generally shine if you play things like delver or mentor, or such, that you could clear out tokens without killing your own things, but that doesn't happen so much in this deck.
I still don't love gideon in this matchup. I feel as though he's so close to what I want, but not quite there. I'll play with him a bit more first.
for the most part its identical to Jack snow's but adding the kolighans command main has been super helpful against tron and aether vial type decks. Since this deck doesn't have a ton of creatures it has been nice to draw out a bolt on a dark confidant only to bring it back next turn.
played this version against a couple decks.
infect 3-1
made a bad misplay in the 1st game. i lost by not killing hisglistener elf on my turn. Lili shined here with the cheap removal and hand disruption
naya burn 2-0
no sideboard but managed to sneak by in both games. shambling vents helped me stabilize late game with lili constantly discarding his draws
slivers 2-0
again no sideboard, but kolaghan's command was an allstar in this game 2 for 1'ing artifact destruction and pinging slivers. Couldnt handle all the removal, then got Olivia online, and burning down all his creatures got her up to an 8/8.
I reeeeaally loved my dead guy ale deck, but adding red gives us such a huge advantage especially lifegain.
Did you not sideboard vs burn? That seems like a mistake to me.
Also not sideboarding vs slivers?
You've got a sideboard dude, use it!
Has 22 lands felt like too few when it comes to vents/olivia?
Whats with no one playing grim lavamancer anymore? That card remains fantastic, especially with early discard and such.
Is soulfire grandmaster doing much for you guys? I, at one point, had 4 bolts, 4 helix, 2 kommand and a flameslash, and felt like I still got minimal usage out of it. If we just want another bear, tidehollow sculler might be a better choice.
Sorry I was in a hurry when i wrote that. I didn't sideboard for any of those matches and neither did my opponents. Just mainboard testing...
Regarding the deck..
22 lands were never too big of a problem, but i may add another in place of the 2nd kolaghan's command and move 1 to sideboard. But I think running 3 liliana of the veil with 4x lingering souls just seems right. SFGM so far has been ok. I find myself losing a good bit of life just off of lands so every life link helps. As far as what would go in that spot im not sure.. there aren't too many 2 drop bombs. I love tidehollow but not sure if its what we need.. I havent seen much of gideon, ally of zendikar so I cant really say if he is as good as Jack Snow says. Elspeth seems like it *should* be here. It makes SFGM a powerhouse, but im reserving judgement
young pyromancer COULD work in place of sfgm, and tidehollow sculler has done me ok as well. scully in particular is nice to get back with Kommand after they spend a removal just to get their thing back, but YP gets out of hand if left alone. Speaking of getting stupidly out of hand, pack rat has won me more games than any other win con combined, and hes great removal bait to get Bob out behind him. "oh god, kill the rat with fire! whew, that was cl-- well, crap. there's bob."
Ok guys I threw together a list last week and took it for a test run (though bear in mind I literally threw it together with what I had and didn't really optimize it at all yet). Bear in mind I am at work as well and trying to remember off the top of my head the list. I am trying to push a more token oriented list and will go into things I know I'd like to try and things that I don't want to use after the decklist:
Ok I am missing 2 cards from the main deck I can't quite remember (could be a quantity thing or I could just be spacing). Onto things I realized after I threw the deck together and played it (had a ton of fun and ended up going 2-2 against Jund, Jund, Zoo (with ghor clan rampagers) and Storm). I'm not going to get into too deep details on the matchups but I just outvalued the first Jund, lost to the 2nd Jund because of some very bad draws (3 lands in a row :-/). Barely lost to Zoo because of double Atarka's Command game 2 (rampagers also hurt attempts to block). Storm was a joke because he had next to 0 interaction and my game 2 starting hand was (2x Leyline of Sanctity [from the board], 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Monestary Mentor, Fetch, Godless Shrine.... so yeah, he just sat there and let me kill him). Anyway, I'd really like to squeeze in a couple of Bitterblossoms but really don't want to lose mentor if possible (if I can't remember the 2 remaining cards I'll slot it into those spots). I also realized this morning, that I forgot to put in Terminates (which seem like an auto include?). I might also try jamming in a Batterskull tonight because even though I don't like it being at 5 cmc, I feel like it will let me end games quicker with a token on board. I love Intangible Virtue though (anthem is great for increasing clock and forcing REALLY bad trades but the Vigilance seemed really key). The only card I am completely against adding is Dark Confidant because I don't own him and don't want to go drop the cash on him. I only own 1 Liliana of the Veil currently but will be slowly getting up to a playset within the month. I might consider Brimaz as well but I feel pretty meh with all the Terminates running around modern at the moment.
The list kind of built itself though I took a very BW tokens approach to it (because I want it to feel like BW tokens but with access to Bolt, Helix, Terminate and possibly K-Command [which I didn't include because of the lack of creatures I have to return, ability to run cheaper and better removal. It is still an amazing card so idk if I want to leave it out]). Sideboard is where my real concern lies and would like some help (as my meta is extremely diverse and having a well rounded SB plan can win you a lot of matches). Currently my sideboard is something like this:
Round 1- Grixis aggro 0/2
Game 1: double pyromancer, too many tokens. GG.
Game 2: Saw too late the 3rd land. Kept with 2 lands, 2 confidant, 1 anger, 1 path to exile and 1 soulfire grand master
Round 2 - Collected Bant 2/1
Game 1: double devasting collected company: smither+scooze, and geist+tarmo @.@
Game 2: Gideon won an already lost game.
Game 3: Olivia voldaren won alone. Gideon attacked too but an 8/8 was enough
Round 3 - Splinter Twin 2/1
Game 1: Turn 5 seize + gideon...discarded a twin. Won attacking 2 turns after.
Game 2: Blood Moon + Keranos. Played wrong and with the fear of the combo. UR Twin players usually side out the combo, URx twin always side out the combo. Played too much thinking about the combo and lost a won game.
Game 3: Played without fear and Gideon won
Till round 3... I've played and see 2 liliana LOL
Round 4 - Jund 2/0
Game 1: double lingering and double helix ftw
Game 2: liliana killed opponent confidant, got killed by finks. Anger of the gods after abbot+finks with another finks. Gideon and game. I love you Gideon.
Round 5 - UR Twin 0/2
Game 1: assembled the combo at 2 life. Brimaz with 3 tokens on the board and 1 shambling vents. Terminate: snare, pte dispel. OK.
Game 2: Keranos + Blood Moon. Again
Comments:
-Gideon is the 3rd best pw ever printed. Period. I'll make soon as possible his cosplay even though he has got an ugly beard.
-After 2 games lost against keranos + blood moon the sentence "we don't need so much rakdos charm, but more answer to enchantment" is unfortunately true. Only 2 hide//seek aren't enough: we could not draw them or the one we draw, can be countered. I was thinking about adding 1 oblivion ring or celestial purge instead of 1 helix sb. 3 hide // seek are too much and oblivion ring/purge are always a removal with a lot of targets. 1 Wear // tear + 2 hide // seek is too much too
imho celestial purge is the best one... it Kills tasigur against grixis, moon/twin/keranos against twin and olivia/ravine/liliana against jund.
-The only md change that I'm thinking to make is -1 lightning helix + 1 lingering souls. We have so many removals, 3 liliana, and we gain life easily... when lingering is strong, we need to see it 2x. When is bad, it's a side out
I think Celestial Purge is the answer these decks are looking for. It's cheap, instant speed and it exiles. There is enough black and red threats running around to make good use of it.
I think Celestial Purge is the answer these decks are looking for. It's cheap, instant speed and it exiles. There is enough black and red threats running around to make good use of it.
Definitely; Purge takes care of problem enchantments like Keranos / Moon / Twin & problem creatures like Tasigur / Angler / Rhino at the same time.
I found disenchants to be too narrow (where Rakdos charm is very flexible) and over time wound up cutting them, though Hide // Seek is definitely miles better than Wear // Tear (it would be better if there were more common situations you'd want to fuse it into a 2-for-1).
EDIT: forgot that Purge is also great against opposing Lilianas & Olivias, and can't be redirected with Spellskite
I think Celestial Purge is the answer these decks are looking for. It's cheap, instant speed and it exiles. There is enough black and red threats running around to make good use of it.
Definitely; Purge takes care of problem enchantments like Keranos / Moon / Twin & problem creatures like Tasigur / Angler / Rhino at the same time.
I found disenchants to be too narrow (where Rakdos charm is very flexible) and over time wound up cutting them, though Hide // Seek is definitely miles better than Wear // Tear (it would be better if there were more common situations you'd want to fuse it into a 2-for-1).
EDIT: forgot that Purge is also great against opposing Lilianas & Olivias, and can't be redirected with Spellskite
All these things.. yup. I just picked up Hide // Seek for the sideboard. I really like how versatile it is. I still have to get the feel for my deck as sideboarding is still rough at times (again I have essentially a tokens list). I do need to try new Gideon and once I get my stuff out of storage I'll add a 2x bitterblossom in the list somewhere. I had an awkward night of bad draws at a tournament last night. Guess that happens sometimes.
How about the Twin side in?
Sided out
-4 lingering -2 olivia
Sided in
+2 purge +1 hide/seek +1 helix +2 kolaghan
Imho I've sided too much and maybe lingering is a card to keep. G2 twin becomes either Ur Moon Control or Grixis Midrange.
Maybe the best choiche is
-2 olivia
-1 gideon
+2 purge +1 hide/seek
maybe brimaz out / fulminator in?
what do you guys think? (my list is the one from previous post. Changes made -1 he[/card]lix md +1 lingering md // -1 hide/seek -1 helix +2 celestial purge). Is rip good or needed against grixis twin? (kolagahan / tasigur / snap but no lingering flashback). a lot of jund players side out bolt against them...
You're right that they usually SB out of the combo, esp against an opponent packing Seize and Path; UR is the only variant that I'd expect might keep the combo in G2.
For that reason I don't really like Hide // Seek in the MU, seems like you're very concerned about Keranos / Moon? Purge is good whether they're on the combo or not, against any flavor of Twin but I imagine a lot of scenarios with Hide // Seek being a dead card. What'd you think of it in the MU?
Looking at your list I'd cut the Helixes (they aren't aggressive and they don't really have many bolt targets) and Olivias (again, no small creatures) for Purges and Kommands (Kommand as a 2-for-1 in a fair game & as extra discard can help if they want to combo).
On Rest in Peace: I've been testing Leyline of the Void as an option that hits a lot of the meta & doesn't hurt our Souls or Lavamancers & I've been impressed. I bring it in vs Grixis, so I could see bringing in RiP; Leyline is of course much better in your opening hand but when it is it's enough better that it gets the nod, plus it isn't vulnerable to Spell Snare or Decay in other MUs. Downside to RiP in the grixis MU specifically is if they're off the combo and playing fair Souls is one of the best cards against them.
I have found RiP to be great against any Grixis build as it shuts off their card advantage engines almost completely (particularly those running flip Jace but even ones without) and they have an extremely hard time getting rid of it. It's also just a pleasure to see the tilt when someone activates Tasigur with a RiP out.
I have found RiP to be great against any Grixis build as it shuts off their card advantage engines almost completely (particularly those running flip Jace but even ones without) and they have an extremely hard time getting rid of it. It's also just a pleasure to see the tilt when someone activates Tasigur with a RiP out.
Why would someone ever activate Tasigur with RiP out? I'm confused.
Jack Snow I'm also really curious how your mana has been performing for you.
Needing RRR for Grandmaster + Bolt, BB for Liliana and WW for Gideon, all maindeck (plus Anger in the sb) with just 23 lands seems tough to pull off. I guess I can see why Blood Moon would be a big issue now.
Curious, has anyone tried shoving the kiki-resto combo into dega? The mana might be a pain, but having an "oops, i win" scenerio available seems worth exploring.
Curious, has anyone tried shoving the kiki-resto combo into dega? The mana might be a pain, but having an "oops, i win" scenerio available seems worth exploring.
The fact we don't have a way to protect it like Jeskai or tutor for pieces like Naya really hurts us.
Curious, has anyone tried shoving the kiki-resto combo into dega? The mana might be a pain, but having an "oops, i win" scenerio available seems worth exploring.
The fact we don't have a way to protect it like Jeskai or tutor for pieces like Naya really hurts us.
Also, the rest of the common creatures this deck might run aren't very useful with kiki-jiki or Resto: Confidant, Grandmaster, Pyromancer, Pack Rat, Lavamancer, Brimaz, Olivia, in general not a lot of ETBs. When you don't have the combo being able to use Resto / Kiki to rebuy Snapcaster in Jeskai or Kitchen Finks in Naya is an extra dimension we don't really have. The main draw to that combo imo is running 4 Restos which are strong on their own, and in this deck that's less true. Guess it could be interesting to try Restos with Abbots.
I have found RiP to be great against any Grixis build as it shuts off their card advantage engines almost completely (particularly those running flip Jace but even ones without) and they have an extremely hard time getting rid of it. It's also just a pleasure to see the tilt when someone activates Tasigur with a RiP out.
Why would someone ever activate Tasigur with RiP out? I'm confused.
They were trying to go next-level and mill 2 lands to draw action, for sure
Cool cool. My tokens/midrange build has been working alright but I definately need more raw card advantage. Because I don't want to drop the dough on the Bobs. I think I might include a 2x Outpost Siege (I know they are not the same but it could work as an alternative). On the plus side, I have really loved having the 1 of Batterskull in the list. It has been an absolute house when unanswered. Mom and Pop (Pia and Kiran Nalaar) were also really good the one time I played it (granted I had an Intangible Virtue out so have having 3 2/2's for 4 mana was pretty good). I definately want some number of new Giddy but I'm gonna need to find someone to trade them to me because I don't think he is worth $50.
I think I'll be running Rakdos Charm instead of Rest in Peace in the board. It has the GY exile I want from rest in peace, helps proc Mentor/Pyro, doesn't affect my GY and incidental hate on artifacts. It also has the cheekiness against Twin. I agree that Shambling Vents is really good. Unfortunately I don't have new Giddy yet but he has put in the work with Elspeth. Swinging in with a 5/6 lifelinking flier can get there pretty quickly.
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Both rakdos charm and anger of the gods give you a lot of life with sfgm. Bonfire of the damned might be a better choice, however.
Radiant flames is worse in a deck with a lot of one-toughness tokens.
Radiant flames would generally shine if you play things like delver or mentor, or such, that you could clear out tokens without killing your own things, but that doesn't happen so much in this deck.
I still don't love gideon in this matchup. I feel as though he's so close to what I want, but not quite there. I'll play with him a bit more first.
3 soulfire grand master
2 brimaz, king of oreskos
2 olivia voldaren
1 terminate
2 lightning helix
4 lightning bolt
2 kolaghan's command
4 path to exile
4 lingering souls
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 liliana of the veil
2 gideon, ally of zendikar
4 marsh flats
1 arid mesa
1 blood crypt
2 bloodstained mire
2 lavaclaw reaches
2 shambling vent
2 sacred foundry
2 godless shrine
2 plains
1 swamp
1 mountain
2 lightning helix
2 rest in peace
2 fulminator mage
2 crumble to dust
3 anger of the gods
2 hide/seek
2 rakdos charm
for the most part its identical to Jack snow's but adding the kolighans command main has been super helpful against tron and aether vial type decks. Since this deck doesn't have a ton of creatures it has been nice to draw out a bolt on a dark confidant only to bring it back next turn.
played this version against a couple decks.
infect 3-1
made a bad misplay in the 1st game. i lost by not killing hisglistener elf on my turn. Lili shined here with the cheap removal and hand disruption
naya burn 2-0
no sideboard but managed to sneak by in both games. shambling vents helped me stabilize late game with lili constantly discarding his draws
slivers 2-0
again no sideboard, but kolaghan's command was an allstar in this game 2 for 1'ing artifact destruction and pinging slivers. Couldnt handle all the removal, then got Olivia online, and burning down all his creatures got her up to an 8/8.
I reeeeaally loved my dead guy ale deck, but adding red gives us such a huge advantage especially lifegain.
Also not sideboarding vs slivers?
You've got a sideboard dude, use it!
Has 22 lands felt like too few when it comes to vents/olivia?
Whats with no one playing grim lavamancer anymore? That card remains fantastic, especially with early discard and such.
Is soulfire grandmaster doing much for you guys? I, at one point, had 4 bolts, 4 helix, 2 kommand and a flameslash, and felt like I still got minimal usage out of it. If we just want another bear, tidehollow sculler might be a better choice.
With the posted list, against burn i would certainly cut thoughtseizes some number of bobs, adding in helix, hide//seek, and some number of angers.
Regarding the deck..
22 lands were never too big of a problem, but i may add another in place of the 2nd kolaghan's command and move 1 to sideboard. But I think running 3 liliana of the veil with 4x lingering souls just seems right. SFGM so far has been ok. I find myself losing a good bit of life just off of lands so every life link helps. As far as what would go in that spot im not sure.. there aren't too many 2 drop bombs. I love tidehollow but not sure if its what we need.. I havent seen much of gideon, ally of zendikar so I cant really say if he is as good as Jack Snow says. Elspeth seems like it *should* be here. It makes SFGM a powerhouse, but im reserving judgement
3x Monestary Mentor
4x Young Pyromancer
Discard:
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
Removal:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
4x Lingering Souls
2x Timely Reinforcements
Planeswalkers:
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
Enchantment:
3x Intangible Virtue
Lands:
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Windswept Heath
3x Sacred Foundry
3x Godless Shrine
2x Blood Crypt
1x Shambling Vents
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
2x Plains
Ok I am missing 2 cards from the main deck I can't quite remember (could be a quantity thing or I could just be spacing). Onto things I realized after I threw the deck together and played it (had a ton of fun and ended up going 2-2 against Jund, Jund, Zoo (with ghor clan rampagers) and Storm). I'm not going to get into too deep details on the matchups but I just outvalued the first Jund, lost to the 2nd Jund because of some very bad draws (3 lands in a row :-/). Barely lost to Zoo because of double Atarka's Command game 2 (rampagers also hurt attempts to block). Storm was a joke because he had next to 0 interaction and my game 2 starting hand was (2x Leyline of Sanctity [from the board], 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Monestary Mentor, Fetch, Godless Shrine.... so yeah, he just sat there and let me kill him). Anyway, I'd really like to squeeze in a couple of Bitterblossoms but really don't want to lose mentor if possible (if I can't remember the 2 remaining cards I'll slot it into those spots). I also realized this morning, that I forgot to put in Terminates (which seem like an auto include?). I might also try jamming in a Batterskull tonight because even though I don't like it being at 5 cmc, I feel like it will let me end games quicker with a token on board. I love Intangible Virtue though (anthem is great for increasing clock and forcing REALLY bad trades but the Vigilance seemed really key). The only card I am completely against adding is Dark Confidant because I don't own him and don't want to go drop the cash on him. I only own 1 Liliana of the Veil currently but will be slowly getting up to a playset within the month. I might consider Brimaz as well but I feel pretty meh with all the Terminates running around modern at the moment.
The list kind of built itself though I took a very BW tokens approach to it (because I want it to feel like BW tokens but with access to Bolt, Helix, Terminate and possibly K-Command [which I didn't include because of the lack of creatures I have to return, ability to run cheaper and better removal. It is still an amazing card so idk if I want to leave it out]). Sideboard is where my real concern lies and would like some help (as my meta is extremely diverse and having a well rounded SB plan can win you a lot of matches). Currently my sideboard is something like this:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Spellskite
2x Cackling Doom
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3x Outpost Siege
I think Celestial Purge is the answer these decks are looking for. It's cheap, instant speed and it exiles. There is enough black and red threats running around to make good use of it.
Definitely; Purge takes care of problem enchantments like Keranos / Moon / Twin & problem creatures like Tasigur / Angler / Rhino at the same time.
I found disenchants to be too narrow (where Rakdos charm is very flexible) and over time wound up cutting them, though Hide // Seek is definitely miles better than Wear // Tear (it would be better if there were more common situations you'd want to fuse it into a 2-for-1).
EDIT: forgot that Purge is also great against opposing Lilianas & Olivias, and can't be redirected with Spellskite
All these things.. yup. I just picked up Hide // Seek for the sideboard. I really like how versatile it is. I still have to get the feel for my deck as sideboarding is still rough at times (again I have essentially a tokens list). I do need to try new Gideon and once I get my stuff out of storage I'll add a 2x bitterblossom in the list somewhere. I had an awkward night of bad draws at a tournament last night. Guess that happens sometimes.
You're right that they usually SB out of the combo, esp against an opponent packing Seize and Path; UR is the only variant that I'd expect might keep the combo in G2.
For that reason I don't really like Hide // Seek in the MU, seems like you're very concerned about Keranos / Moon? Purge is good whether they're on the combo or not, against any flavor of Twin but I imagine a lot of scenarios with Hide // Seek being a dead card. What'd you think of it in the MU?
Looking at your list I'd cut the Helixes (they aren't aggressive and they don't really have many bolt targets) and Olivias (again, no small creatures) for Purges and Kommands (Kommand as a 2-for-1 in a fair game & as extra discard can help if they want to combo).
On Rest in Peace: I've been testing Leyline of the Void as an option that hits a lot of the meta & doesn't hurt our Souls or Lavamancers & I've been impressed. I bring it in vs Grixis, so I could see bringing in RiP; Leyline is of course much better in your opening hand but when it is it's enough better that it gets the nod, plus it isn't vulnerable to Spell Snare or Decay in other MUs. Downside to RiP in the grixis MU specifically is if they're off the combo and playing fair Souls is one of the best cards against them.
Why would someone ever activate Tasigur with RiP out? I'm confused.
Needing RRR for Grandmaster + Bolt, BB for Liliana and WW for Gideon, all maindeck (plus Anger in the sb) with just 23 lands seems tough to pull off. I guess I can see why Blood Moon would be a big issue now.
The fact we don't have a way to protect it like Jeskai or tutor for pieces like Naya really hurts us.
Also, the rest of the common creatures this deck might run aren't very useful with kiki-jiki or Resto: Confidant, Grandmaster, Pyromancer, Pack Rat, Lavamancer, Brimaz, Olivia, in general not a lot of ETBs. When you don't have the combo being able to use Resto / Kiki to rebuy Snapcaster in Jeskai or Kitchen Finks in Naya is an extra dimension we don't really have. The main draw to that combo imo is running 4 Restos which are strong on their own, and in this deck that's less true. Guess it could be interesting to try Restos with Abbots.
They were trying to go next-level and mill 2 lands to draw action, for sure