I agree that two Vault of the Archangel is highly questionable. I could see playing one and a copy of Sorin, Solemn Visitor. Playing Mardu Charm was a blast for me when I did it. Instant speed take your best card or surprise block always left my opponent dumbfounded.
These colors are super powerful, but we are missing something. The WR and WB manlands and commands will come in time. I do think using butcher with tokens is just as good as rhino.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
The general consensus from what I've read online,from various opinions, is that:
1) monastery mentor isn't that consistent
2) butcher of the horde is meh, even with token support --> The thing about Siege Rhino is that it provides a net gain of 6 damage without doing anything. And it can do that while blocking and attacking for trample next turn. Butcher of the Horde wouldn't be as good unless it brought two tokens for free imo. And the synergy with bitterblossom isn't as good as it sounds in practice.
3) mardu charm is much better than people expected it to be
4) young pyromancer is decent (but we may as well be playing grixis delver)
5) bitterblossom hurts more than it helps
I think we need to come up with a whole new strategy and my plan would be to make it more instant speed, token-based (without utilizing token generating creatures). Mardu has the best set of removal spells in modern and I think we need to utilize them in a more controlling shell. Out-value the opponent in creatures by token generation, anthems, and the most diverse range of reactive and proactive removal spells.
I'm not too sure on dark confidant. I don't think it fits anywhere in the mardu variants I've seen. Maybe if we made some kind of mardu aggro, rather than mardu midrange.
You can not do what you want, as effective as you want, until we get the enemy colored manlands. When we get those then Mardu-Token control will be born.
Mardu aggro could be very good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I was thinking control more as in how the deck functions to go the long game through sheer card advantage (tokens) but I also agree with you that once the manlands come out, the deck will start to have greater options.
Mardu aggro might be viable but could we do something that zoo or burn or merfolk can't already do? We'll have to see.
If we did get a manland, what sort of effect would we want?
1: I agree.
2: Rhino is good because its value even if it immediately eats a path. Butcher starts off worse, but gets much better faster. The issue is that if it dies in combat turn 1, you had to sac atleast a token for haste, maybe more for vigilance/ll. You potentially got 2 or 3 for 1-ed, and that hurts in a deck like this. If something similar to falkenwrath/butcher allowed it to gain hexproof, it might be playable (wrong colors though), it might be good, but indestructible isnt quite there, and falkenwrath is a worse body.
3: Definitely, still a bit weak in modern, but potentially playable in certain builds. Kommand pushes it out a bit, so room for both is hard.
4: Yes, its good, but I still don't feel this is the deck for it.
5: Disagree. The lifeloss with butcher/sorin/VotA, etc, easily makes it worth it. That being said, Im not sure butcher in general is the best build, and bitterblossom isn't worth it without butcher.
I still don't think tokens is the way to go. Earlier lists posted I liked a lot more. Cards like sculler, sfgm, abbot, bob, fulm and lavamancer with kommand and lots of discard/cheap removal and lilys or other utility cards feels stronger. Mardu is definitely hard, because both abbot and bob, as good sources of card advantage, promote a cheaper deck, but the color combination seems to push for slower control-range. Mardu aggro, or the lists I see, look like taking burn and zoo, mashing them together, and then removing good cards for worse options. Death's shadow would be a key card (ala suicide zoo) but it still doesn't seem good. Despite what the mardu say, our best element ain't speed.
Enemy manlands are honestly going to be big if they are playable. I would love to see something like ~ enters tapped. 1WB: becomes a 2/4 lifelink until eot.
Dodges bolt, kills a fair amount of things, and lifelink seems the obvious ability for WB.
Boros is harder because I also want it to dodge bolt, but it won't. Maybe ~etbt. WR: becomes a 2/1 double strike until eot would be good, though maybe too strong in standard. We will have to see, but if we get something in power level to colonnade (or even any of the non-lavaclaw ones) in BFZ, this deck could be on the map. As it is, sfgm is a great mana sink, but a manland would be really the best, as we can't play mutas or such in a three color deck.
I think a slower grindy-midrange is likely where this deck will end up once we get some more cards, unless wizards really pushes something else.
1: I agree.
2: Rhino is good because its value even if it immediately eats a path. Butcher starts off worse, but gets much better faster. The issue is that if it dies in combat turn 1, you had to sac atleast a token for haste, maybe more for vigilance/ll. You potentially got 2 or 3 for 1-ed, and that hurts in a deck like this. If something similar to falkenwrath/butcher allowed it to gain hexproof, it might be playable (wrong colors though), it might be good, but indestructible isnt quite there, and falkenwrath is a worse body.
3: Definitely, still a bit weak in modern, but potentially playable in certain builds. Kommand pushes it out a bit, so room for both is hard.
4: Yes, its good, but I still don't feel this is the deck for it.
5: Disagree. The lifeloss with butcher/sorin/VotA, etc, easily makes it worth it. That being said, Im not sure butcher in general is the best build, and bitterblossom isn't worth it without butcher.
I still don't think tokens is the way to go. Earlier lists posted I liked a lot more. Cards like sculler, sfgm, abbot, bob, fulm and lavamancer with kommand and lots of discard/cheap removal and lilys or other utility cards feels stronger. Mardu is definitely hard, because both abbot and bob, as good sources of card advantage, promote a cheaper deck, but the color combination seems to push for slower control-range.
1. From what I've tested, a discard oriented build with 4 inquisition, 2 thoughtseize, and 2 mardu charms has been really good. Mardu charm is extremely versatile if you put it in the right variant: the non-creature token variant. Kolaghan's command is amazing but I think it is much less desirable in a build that doesn't provide a fast clock like Grixis and a deck that lacks Snapcaster Mage.
2. I don't necessarily disagree with what you say about bitterblossom but I feel that it is too low of an impact for what it does. It's acceptable with Butcher - good but not great - but with vault of the archangel and Sorin, I'm not convinced. It attacks for one on turn 4. That is all I can say. A judge's familiar probably puts more work than a fairy token to be frank.
Here is the thing: our cards are very reliant on being drawn at the right time. Dark confidant is amazing turn 2 and still pretty decent late-game even if your life is in jeopardy. Can you say the same thing about bitterblossom, pyromancer, mentor, tidehollow sculler, etc.? Cards like pyromancer and mentor demand that you sculpt your hand ideally and have extra removal spells in hand when you draw them. That's quite awkward.
And some cards are very dependent on the board state: SSV and Butcher of the Horde mainly. These are the biggest downfalls of the Mardu creature variant, despite the amazing set of removals we have.
Now consider other midrange decks: Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze get better and better as the game prolongs. Same with Liliana. Siege Rhino. Mardu just seems like it is taking half of the really good cards (lingering souls, lightning bolt, thoughtseize, bob, etc.) and substituting the other half with a budget.
3. Every time I look at the Mardu creature variant, I ask myself why I wouldn't play Jund or Junk at that point. They not only have cards that are better on their own but also their cards tend to have the same consistent gameplan. Something like abbot only truly shine in jeskai or esper builds and even there it's somewhat mediocre when your Abzan friend leans back in his chair and plays a Tarmogoyf. Bob is amazing but the cards built around him are not. Cards like fulminator mages and lava grimancer don't consistently fit the gametype that Mardu creature decks have, even though they are great on their own.
4. The reason why I looked at the pure token build is because BW token by itself is already a solid deck that has great match-ups against midrange and control. Its weakness has always been aggro (except Affinity) and combo, which are obviously the two bigger chunks of the meta. Because the BW color is trifle limited in options, these decks often have to play things like Tidehollow Sculler or Brimaz in order to fill up the main deck. Those cards usually don't have that big of an impact on their own and takes away from the gameplan (e.g turning on 1-for-1 removal). I also feel the deck lacked enough efficient removals for it to survive in this aggro-heavy meta.
Bringing in red however mitigates the weaknesses of BW token significantly and also brings more consistency to the gameplan (for reasons I mentioned earlier). You get lightning bolt for both the faster clock and efficient defense against aggro, in a deck that typically rely on 4 path to exile and 1 dismember. That's already huge. You also get lightning helix which mitigates the use of Thoughtseize and also provides more efficient aggro removal. Using path to exile on a noble hierarch isn't that fantastic. The third addition is Mardu Charm, which allows you to decimate control/combo (instant duress) or aggro (two 1/1 first strikers perhaps backed with an anthem) or midrange (4 damage to target creature) all in one!
The combo match-up is better with the addition of two mardu charms, which provide a total of 8 discard outlets in the main deck. The aggro match up is better as well, for obvious reasons. BW token has always been a little too linear in the mid-late game - maybe the occasional zealous persecution trick at best - and mardu charm mitigates that. Being able to decide between Midnight Haunting and Mardu Charm against twin on turn 3... now that is some freedom. I don't think Mardu charm is good as a 4-of but I definitely think you need at least 2.
RBW token can't run spectral procession but that really doesn't matter too much. The deck is a whole new build that relies on instant speed tempo advantage. Midnight Haunting is better than SP in this deck because almost all the spells are instant oriented in the mid-late game (crackling doom, mardu charms, raise the alarm, secure the waste, etc.). Being able to run an instant-spell oriented deck is SO GOOD, especially when you are running 6 anthems and 2 SSV. By the way, being able to use a full set of intangible virtues rather than honor of the pure in a deck that doesn't use creatures is pretty significant.
From what I can tell, RBW token loses a bit of mana consistency, some mediocre cards, and durability to blood moon, but gains so much that it's totally worth it.
Feel free to make any appropriate counter-arguments. We should do as much as we can to make Mardu a thing.
I'm glad we are actually having a discussion in this thread. I own Jund and there is nothing Mardu can do to be a better midrange deck. I really do think that the token version is the way to go, but if I get enemy manlands I may change my mind.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Right now, these is no "real" reason to play this deck over green based midrange.
Some more points:
BItterblossom is still a powerful card. Yes, it only attacks for 1 on turn 4, but with all the disruption in this deck, you aren't losing on turn 4. Judge's familiar is better than a fairie token, but bitterblossom is not just 1 token. With something like butcher, or evwn anthem effects, multiple tokens over several turns without using more cards for them very quickly puts the game away. Bitterblossom is similar to mentor/pyromancer without the reliance on already having a good (and full) hand.
Our cards are definitely timing reliant. That hurts in a deck that doesn't play blue (not that modern has good card selection anyways...).
Sculler is still decent later into the game, if they have a card or two left, you can play your sculler, and you will always get information. Sometimes they just have lands. Thats fine, because you know they don't have a removal spell. Sometimes you force a bolt in response. Also fine, because its one more bolt that won't be timed as well as it could, etc.
Mardu plays better spells, but worse creatures than those green decks. Thats how green works in this format, unfortunately. That being sad, man lands, or a couple more creatures could be enough. We only need a critical mass of creatures, and even with wizards printing good ones few and far between, we will eventually get there. I also suspect that this deck functions better in a more combo-y meta.
How you play abbot in esper confuses me, but I understand your point. That being said, when we have tons of 1 or 2 cost spells, getting to draw it is good. A 2/1 prowess + a card is incredible, and abbot is often (though of course not always) that.
Fulminator mage is such a powerful card in this meta and is worth playing more because its so good against everything else (especially with kommand) than because its good with our game plan. Lavamancer, on the other hand, is exactly what we want. A 1 mana utility creature that both stays relevant as the game goes on, and can contribute a significant amount of damage towards winning the game.
I think this issue with mardu tokens is that adding red to dilute the deck isn't actually worth what you put in. Sure you have all sorts of good cards, but BW tokens just plays better, and it doesn't really lack red. Sure, more removal is useful, but there is plenty of good black removal. Many people choose not to play it in favor of other cards. While you may see sculler as a concession to not having enough cards or something similar, I think it is a very good card, and while it does dillute the actual token synergy, you don't sacrifice nearly as much as you would adding bolts, charms, etc.
That all being said, I think mardu tokens is a decent deck. However, I would expect it to be much slower and more disruptive than BW tokens. The two decks would likely play very differently.
Mardu with many cheap creatures/disruption or just straight out mardu control are possibly the best options currently possible. Unless we are all missing some card, or a new one is printed, in which case that may blow this all wide open.
I think this issue with mardu tokens is that adding red to dilute the deck isn't actually worth what you put in. Sure you have all sorts of good cards, but BW tokens just plays better, and it doesn't really lack red. Sure, more removal is useful, but there is plenty of good black removal. Many people choose not to play it in favor of other cards. While you may see sculler as a concession to not having enough cards or something similar, I think it is a very good card, and while it does dillute the actual token synergy, you don't sacrifice nearly as much as you would adding bolts, charms, etc.
That all being said, I think mardu tokens is a decent deck. However, I would expect it to be much slower and more disruptive than BW tokens. The two decks would likely play very differently.
Mardu with many cheap creatures/disruption or just straight out mardu control are possibly the best options currently possible. Unless we are all missing some card, or a new one is printed, in which case that may blow this all wide open.
Thanks for replying! I don't want to sound argumentative for the sake of being argumentative but I would like to address some points further, beyond what I've already made:
My comment about judge's familiar was not a one-on-one comparison but rather if you played a turn 1 familiar, you'd be dealing 3 damage by turn 4 and still have utility as a fodder and counter-spell. I understand the deck doesn't lose easily by turn 4, at least against an aggro deck, but other decks are simply designed to have better reach over the mid-late game. Tron, Scapeshift, Junk, Jund, BW tokens, any control, etc. simply have greater reach than anything Mardu comes up with late-game. Our late-game plans can be described in two words: so-so impact and high-risk. Even in magic Christmas land, where we have Butcher survive two turns with plenty of tokens to eat backed by SSV, that is relatively low impact for an essentially lucky, high-risk board state. Tron taps out for Emrakul by the time that happens. Even if we get a broken man-land in the next set, it wouldn't cover the egregious flaws of the deck in general. We simply need better creatures dedicated to Mardu colors and strategy. Hopefully, we get some someday.
Mardu tokens is designed to be much faster than BW tokens. That is the point of adding lightning bolt, lightning helix, mardu tokens, midnight haunting, etc. More instant speed token generators and reach speeds up the game. The mana base is consistent because fortunately we have access to blackcleaved cliffs and the fact that only one card in the deck requires double mana of one color (I run Elspeth, Knight-errant).
Initially, BW token players didn't even play raise the alarm because they were discouraged by its lack of flying tokens. But they realized playing things like Tidehollow Sculler and Brimaz were much worse because they required you to play honor of the pure over intangible virtue and because they turned on removal. They also realized raise the alarm was quite good because it was instant speed. That's a theme I would like to emphasize over and over: instant speed is not to be underestimated!
You said "Many people choose not to play it in favor of other cards" and that "you don't sacrifice nearly as much as you would adding bolts, charms, etc." People who initially tried to splash red into BW tokens did so by using creature token-generators (e.g Pyromancer). I think this is the wrong way to go! You need to get cast two instant/ sorcery speed to get the same value as a raise the alarm from a pyromancer, and you also lose the instant speed. Of course, you still have the pyromancer for fodder.... So my point? My point is this: people choosing not to play something isn't always indicative of the right decisions, particularly if they don't even test the cards in the first place. I only find the general consensus useful after a bunch of people reflect on how the cards tested. People severely underestimated Tarmogoyf when it first came out... and more and more people started testing it.
And what exactly do we sacrifice by adding in bolts, charms, etc.? You didn't clarify. I think all we are sacrificing is what we wanted to lose in the first place: creatures and inefficient removal spells (path to exile, go for the throat, etc). The only thing we didn't want to lose was a couple of utility lands and spectral procession, although I have made arguments for the latter already. I'm not sure if having ghost quarters would make combo match-ups like Tron significantly better because they are the bane of token decks. But Mardu has better match-up against Tron than BW token I believe because its tempo is faster.
Does 4 abbot and 6 big creatures cause issues for you? I think right now, kommand is too strong not to play mainboard.
Any tier two deck is better than this one, thats just how it is right now. Sure, some of these decks are designed to have more reach, but thats partially because we arent building decks with reach, and not because they cant be built.
I agree with your points about rwb tokens, mainly. Its true that people don't always make the right desicions.
I don't think path is an inefficient removal spell, and other black based removal (ala murderous cut, dismember, go for the throat, etc) is still quite good. Dreadbore, terminate, and lighnting bolt all outclass them, of course. I guess I would need to actually see a lot more games with rwb tokens than I have, but I feel that by adding so many discard, removal, etc, you end up with less focus on the actual token makers, the anthems, etc. If your tokens take longer to get bigger/get enough of them, sure you will sometimes make up that damage with burn, but not always. In the first few turns, you are heavily capped by mana, and I think thats bigger for tokens than the lack of reach or anything else. Red does not really solve that problem. Sure, your mana base may be consistant, but it will be less consistent than 2 colors, and you will occassionaly lose to cards like blood moon. BW tokens is a fine deck, but I just don't think adding red makes its a better deck. Perhaps not a worse one, but its moving sideways, not forwards.
It seems like it may be helpful instead of saying "this is worse than X" to say "what does Mardu have access to that X/Y/Z don't?"
Let's assume the most likely comparable decks are Jund (midrange) and Grixis (combo, tempo and aggro-control). This means we are looking at what Wx uniquely brings:
Is it fair to say that any Mardu deck not relying on one of those is going to be a worse version of X? If so, how can we piece together the strengths of RB with these unique W facets?
Does 4 abbot and 6 big creatures cause issues for you? I think right now, kommand is too strong not to play mainboard.
Any tier two deck is better than this one, thats just how it is right now. Sure, some of these decks are designed to have more reach, but thats partially because we arent building decks with reach, and not because they cant be built.
I agree with your points about rwb tokens, mainly. Its true that people don't always make the right desicions.
I don't think path is an inefficient removal spell, and other black based removal (ala murderous cut, dismember, go for the throat, etc) is still quite good. Dreadbore, terminate, and lighnting bolt all outclass them, of course. I guess I would need to actually see a lot more games with rwb tokens than I have, but I feel that by adding so many discard, removal, etc, you end up with less focus on the actual token makers, the anthems, etc. If your tokens take longer to get bigger/get enough of them, sure you will sometimes make up that damage with burn, but not always. In the first few turns, you are heavily capped by mana, and I think thats bigger for tokens than the lack of reach or anything else. Red does not really solve that problem. Sure, your mana base may be consistant, but it will be less consistent than 2 colors, and you will occassionaly lose to cards like blood moon. BW tokens is a fine deck, but I just don't think adding red makes its a better deck. Perhaps not a worse one, but its moving sideways, not forwards.
You make valid concerns about the rwb token build but check out the link I posted earlier.
The standard bw token uses this shell: 2-6 creatures, 4 lingering souls, 4 spectral, 4 other token generator, 3-6 anthems, 4-8 removals (four of which are path to exile), and finally 4-8 hand disruption.
My deck replaces those 2-6 creatures with more token generators, so actually RWB has a more consistent gameplay on top of flexibility. The only creatures I would consider running is hero of the bladehold, and only out of the side board after my opponent removes 1-for-1 removals.
In addition, we run pretty much the same number of removals and hand disruptions. Only this time, our options are more efficient. Path to exile is only efficient against big fatty creatures, so I keep it at 1 or 2 in the main deck. The rest are filled with lightning bolts.
Concerning the BWx builds, I also think that the deck would benefit from a green splash as well. Green provides it with abrupt decay, gavony township, voice of resurgence. Voice of resurgence likes to get killed... that's why it is acceptable to run it in a token deck. If you splash blue, I suppose you don't really get much out of it. You have serum visions, snapcaster mage, supreme verdict, esper charm, azorius charm, etc. I can't really think of much else. None of the cards have any significant synergy with BW tokens
What if the deck just ran Elspeth, Sun's Champion to beat Jund? Or as it's main win condition? I can't really think of anything that wins games quite like her. Flipping her off of Abbot or Chandra seems not great, but that's gonna happen with our win cons since we don't have a white Goyf. Without tokens, I opted for more planeswalkers. The deck is so good at locking down the board, but finding a win con becomes the problem. The manabase might need work to support Elspeth and maybe I can't run Blood Moon like I did with my last list, but I'll figure that out later.
Now that deck certainly isnt bad, but it doesn't really feel "better". Both of them seem pretty decent, you have a good mix of interaction, token makers, anthems, and lands. Both seem like playable modern decks. Sure they could be improved with play testing, and such, but I don't really see them getting that much better. Just another note, but path to exile is just as efficient against a goblin guide as it is against a tasigur. Unless they have already gotten value out of their creature (ala shiege rhino) or you've made a questionable play (pathing their birdy), kill whatever you need to kill, you're only spending 1 mana, and their getting their land no matter what you kill. Sure it is usually smart to save your removal for what needs it, but that doesn't change the efficiency.
Personally, Mardu is sort of a mix of Jund and Junk. You get both lingering souls and lightning bolt, both Kommand and path. You really do have to focus on the noncreatures that the lack of green forces you to look at. Sure you get bob, fulms, etc, but you miss out on rhinos, goyfs, and scoozes.
The way I see it are we several options these colors allow: Aggro. Its do-able, sure, but I think I can speak for most of us when we say that just playing goblin guides and stuff isn't the best we can do. Burn: We have a lot of burn in these colors. Helix, bolt, lavaspike, bump in the night, boros charm, the list goes on. Might be a good deck. But there is a reason naya burn is more common. The black isnt needed, and green helps you fight your hate cards. Tokens. I've said above, I don't think adding red makes BW tokens a better deck. Midrange. Maybe our best bet, as other successful midrange decks have ruled the format, and in theory, this deck can be similar. In practice, it isnt nearly as good. Butcher/aristocrats. Butcher and falkenwrath seem like good cards. We've recently gotten several new spells that allow us to recur several creatures at once. The deck seems to build itself. The deck still seems somewhat weak for modern, however. Control. There was a chaos control thread in the deck creation forums a while ago. Sure, its playable, but why not play jeskai, or esper, or sultai, or just uw, or just play blue. Control seems to require blue unless you plan to play only against fair decks.
This doesn't leave us in a very good spot. Unless new cards are found/printed, most of these decks will remain in adequacy. We could just splash green, or blue for our control decks, but this thread is WBR midrange, and while its pretty open, I think if you wanted to splash green, you've ended up with ajundi, or if you splash blue, you've ended up with something closer to esper/jeskai control.
CHandra is too weak for modern. She needs to sit around for far too long to flip, and before she flips, she does ****-all.
Especially with abbot, path is better than terminate because it costs 1 less. I think you probably want 1 more land.
Yes I would agree this Chandra is too low-impact for Modern. It doesn't alleviate the problems that Mardu have, which is having cards that are too situational oriented. You may as well play burn or zoo if you want to go aggro. And although all the kill spells Mardu has offer some stability into the midrange game, the lack of snapcaster mage makes Mardu less appealing.
And I don't see much point in adding 6cmc Elspeth. Adjusting your mana base for a 2-of in a deck of 60 cards with no way to tutor it and that has no guaranteed "I-win" impact isn't worth playing in Modern. Amazing card in itself though, I agree.
CHandra is too weak for modern. She needs to sit around for far too long to flip, and before she flips, she does ****-all.
Especially with abbot, path is better than terminate because it costs 1 less. I think you probably want 1 more land.
lol path is not better than terminate b/c it gives your opponent land (they both have pluses and minuses).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
And I don't see much point in adding 6cmc Elspeth. Adjusting your mana base for a 2-of in a deck of 60 cards with no way to tutor it and that has no guaranteed "I-win" impact isn't worth playing in Modern. Amazing card in itself though, I agree.
If the concern is that the deck doesn't have a way of going over the top against GBx or even Grixis for that matter, Sun's Champion is better than Knight Errant. Elspeth doesn't die to the removal in modern unlike Olivia or Butcher. Those cards can't be tutored up either, but somewhere between Chandra, Siege, Bob, and Abbot, you are going to draw her and the lands to cast her. She is simply the most resilient win condition that Mardu has available. I really don't see a difference between the five mana to cast Thundermaw Hellkite, which some folks use, and the six mana to cast her when the deck has so much card draw.
And her possibly being too slow against combo isn't that likely once you get them locked under a Liliana.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Honestly, there is no way terminate is better than path to exile. Some decks may play terminate, but any deck with abbot is not that deck. Sure, giving an opponent a land is not always fantastic, but exiling vs destroying and 1 mana vs 2 makes path a large amount better.
I personally would not play 6 cmc cards with bob. Then you might switch to phyrexian arena/chandra/outpost siege, but then your whole deck becomes noticably slower. Sure thats doable, but elspeth can easily be killed, and while you say shes not too slow with a lily lock, neither is butcher or olivia, or what have you. That being said, if you wanted to play a much slower/controlling build of mardu, sun's champion is great. If you were to do that, kommand, lavamancer, fulm, souls, discard, removal, board wipes and planeswalkers should likely be the extent of what you are running. Your deck is not far off from that, but i think the abbots/bobs should turn into lands, mainboard fulminators, and another helix or two. Soulfire grandmaster is also an option in that type of deck if you want a cheaper creature.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
These colors are super powerful, but we are missing something. The WR and WB manlands and commands will come in time. I do think using butcher with tokens is just as good as rhino.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
1) monastery mentor isn't that consistent
2) butcher of the horde is meh, even with token support --> The thing about Siege Rhino is that it provides a net gain of 6 damage without doing anything. And it can do that while blocking and attacking for trample next turn. Butcher of the Horde wouldn't be as good unless it brought two tokens for free imo. And the synergy with bitterblossom isn't as good as it sounds in practice.
3) mardu charm is much better than people expected it to be
4) young pyromancer is decent (but we may as well be playing grixis delver)
5) bitterblossom hurts more than it helps
I think we need to come up with a whole new strategy and my plan would be to make it more instant speed, token-based (without utilizing token generating creatures). Mardu has the best set of removal spells in modern and I think we need to utilize them in a more controlling shell. Out-value the opponent in creatures by token generation, anthems, and the most diverse range of reactive and proactive removal spells.
I'm not too sure on dark confidant. I don't think it fits anywhere in the mardu variants I've seen. Maybe if we made some kind of mardu aggro, rather than mardu midrange.
Mardu aggro could be very good.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Mardu aggro might be viable but could we do something that zoo or burn or merfolk can't already do? We'll have to see.
If we did get a manland, what sort of effect would we want?
2: Rhino is good because its value even if it immediately eats a path. Butcher starts off worse, but gets much better faster. The issue is that if it dies in combat turn 1, you had to sac atleast a token for haste, maybe more for vigilance/ll. You potentially got 2 or 3 for 1-ed, and that hurts in a deck like this. If something similar to falkenwrath/butcher allowed it to gain hexproof, it might be playable (wrong colors though), it might be good, but indestructible isnt quite there, and falkenwrath is a worse body.
3: Definitely, still a bit weak in modern, but potentially playable in certain builds. Kommand pushes it out a bit, so room for both is hard.
4: Yes, its good, but I still don't feel this is the deck for it.
5: Disagree. The lifeloss with butcher/sorin/VotA, etc, easily makes it worth it. That being said, Im not sure butcher in general is the best build, and bitterblossom isn't worth it without butcher.
I still don't think tokens is the way to go. Earlier lists posted I liked a lot more. Cards like sculler, sfgm, abbot, bob, fulm and lavamancer with kommand and lots of discard/cheap removal and lilys or other utility cards feels stronger. Mardu is definitely hard, because both abbot and bob, as good sources of card advantage, promote a cheaper deck, but the color combination seems to push for slower control-range. Mardu aggro, or the lists I see, look like taking burn and zoo, mashing them together, and then removing good cards for worse options. Death's shadow would be a key card (ala suicide zoo) but it still doesn't seem good. Despite what the mardu say, our best element ain't speed.
Enemy manlands are honestly going to be big if they are playable. I would love to see something like ~ enters tapped. 1WB: becomes a 2/4 lifelink until eot.
Dodges bolt, kills a fair amount of things, and lifelink seems the obvious ability for WB.
Boros is harder because I also want it to dodge bolt, but it won't. Maybe ~etbt. WR: becomes a 2/1 double strike until eot would be good, though maybe too strong in standard. We will have to see, but if we get something in power level to colonnade (or even any of the non-lavaclaw ones) in BFZ, this deck could be on the map. As it is, sfgm is a great mana sink, but a manland would be really the best, as we can't play mutas or such in a three color deck.
I think a slower grindy-midrange is likely where this deck will end up once we get some more cards, unless wizards really pushes something else.
1. From what I've tested, a discard oriented build with 4 inquisition, 2 thoughtseize, and 2 mardu charms has been really good. Mardu charm is extremely versatile if you put it in the right variant: the non-creature token variant. Kolaghan's command is amazing but I think it is much less desirable in a build that doesn't provide a fast clock like Grixis and a deck that lacks Snapcaster Mage.
2. I don't necessarily disagree with what you say about bitterblossom but I feel that it is too low of an impact for what it does. It's acceptable with Butcher - good but not great - but with vault of the archangel and Sorin, I'm not convinced. It attacks for one on turn 4. That is all I can say. A judge's familiar probably puts more work than a fairy token to be frank.
Here is the thing: our cards are very reliant on being drawn at the right time. Dark confidant is amazing turn 2 and still pretty decent late-game even if your life is in jeopardy. Can you say the same thing about bitterblossom, pyromancer, mentor, tidehollow sculler, etc.? Cards like pyromancer and mentor demand that you sculpt your hand ideally and have extra removal spells in hand when you draw them. That's quite awkward.
And some cards are very dependent on the board state: SSV and Butcher of the Horde mainly. These are the biggest downfalls of the Mardu creature variant, despite the amazing set of removals we have.
Now consider other midrange decks: Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze get better and better as the game prolongs. Same with Liliana. Siege Rhino. Mardu just seems like it is taking half of the really good cards (lingering souls, lightning bolt, thoughtseize, bob, etc.) and substituting the other half with a budget.
3. Every time I look at the Mardu creature variant, I ask myself why I wouldn't play Jund or Junk at that point. They not only have cards that are better on their own but also their cards tend to have the same consistent gameplan. Something like abbot only truly shine in jeskai or esper builds and even there it's somewhat mediocre when your Abzan friend leans back in his chair and plays a Tarmogoyf. Bob is amazing but the cards built around him are not. Cards like fulminator mages and lava grimancer don't consistently fit the gametype that Mardu creature decks have, even though they are great on their own.
4. The reason why I looked at the pure token build is because BW token by itself is already a solid deck that has great match-ups against midrange and control. Its weakness has always been aggro (except Affinity) and combo, which are obviously the two bigger chunks of the meta. Because the BW color is trifle limited in options, these decks often have to play things like Tidehollow Sculler or Brimaz in order to fill up the main deck. Those cards usually don't have that big of an impact on their own and takes away from the gameplan (e.g turning on 1-for-1 removal). I also feel the deck lacked enough efficient removals for it to survive in this aggro-heavy meta.
Bringing in red however mitigates the weaknesses of BW token significantly and also brings more consistency to the gameplan (for reasons I mentioned earlier). You get lightning bolt for both the faster clock and efficient defense against aggro, in a deck that typically rely on 4 path to exile and 1 dismember. That's already huge. You also get lightning helix which mitigates the use of Thoughtseize and also provides more efficient aggro removal. Using path to exile on a noble hierarch isn't that fantastic. The third addition is Mardu Charm, which allows you to decimate control/combo (instant duress) or aggro (two 1/1 first strikers perhaps backed with an anthem) or midrange (4 damage to target creature) all in one!
The combo match-up is better with the addition of two mardu charms, which provide a total of 8 discard outlets in the main deck. The aggro match up is better as well, for obvious reasons. BW token has always been a little too linear in the mid-late game - maybe the occasional zealous persecution trick at best - and mardu charm mitigates that. Being able to decide between Midnight Haunting and Mardu Charm against twin on turn 3... now that is some freedom. I don't think Mardu charm is good as a 4-of but I definitely think you need at least 2.
RBW token can't run spectral procession but that really doesn't matter too much. The deck is a whole new build that relies on instant speed tempo advantage. Midnight Haunting is better than SP in this deck because almost all the spells are instant oriented in the mid-late game (crackling doom, mardu charms, raise the alarm, secure the waste, etc.). Being able to run an instant-spell oriented deck is SO GOOD, especially when you are running 6 anthems and 2 SSV. By the way, being able to use a full set of intangible virtues rather than honor of the pure in a deck that doesn't use creatures is pretty significant.
From what I can tell, RBW token loses a bit of mana consistency, some mediocre cards, and durability to blood moon, but gains so much that it's totally worth it.
Feel free to make any appropriate counter-arguments. We should do as much as we can to make Mardu a thing.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Some more points:
BItterblossom is still a powerful card. Yes, it only attacks for 1 on turn 4, but with all the disruption in this deck, you aren't losing on turn 4. Judge's familiar is better than a fairie token, but bitterblossom is not just 1 token. With something like butcher, or evwn anthem effects, multiple tokens over several turns without using more cards for them very quickly puts the game away. Bitterblossom is similar to mentor/pyromancer without the reliance on already having a good (and full) hand.
Our cards are definitely timing reliant. That hurts in a deck that doesn't play blue (not that modern has good card selection anyways...).
Sculler is still decent later into the game, if they have a card or two left, you can play your sculler, and you will always get information. Sometimes they just have lands. Thats fine, because you know they don't have a removal spell. Sometimes you force a bolt in response. Also fine, because its one more bolt that won't be timed as well as it could, etc.
Mardu plays better spells, but worse creatures than those green decks. Thats how green works in this format, unfortunately. That being sad, man lands, or a couple more creatures could be enough. We only need a critical mass of creatures, and even with wizards printing good ones few and far between, we will eventually get there. I also suspect that this deck functions better in a more combo-y meta.
How you play abbot in esper confuses me, but I understand your point. That being said, when we have tons of 1 or 2 cost spells, getting to draw it is good. A 2/1 prowess + a card is incredible, and abbot is often (though of course not always) that.
Fulminator mage is such a powerful card in this meta and is worth playing more because its so good against everything else (especially with kommand) than because its good with our game plan. Lavamancer, on the other hand, is exactly what we want. A 1 mana utility creature that both stays relevant as the game goes on, and can contribute a significant amount of damage towards winning the game.
I think this issue with mardu tokens is that adding red to dilute the deck isn't actually worth what you put in. Sure you have all sorts of good cards, but BW tokens just plays better, and it doesn't really lack red. Sure, more removal is useful, but there is plenty of good black removal. Many people choose not to play it in favor of other cards. While you may see sculler as a concession to not having enough cards or something similar, I think it is a very good card, and while it does dillute the actual token synergy, you don't sacrifice nearly as much as you would adding bolts, charms, etc.
That all being said, I think mardu tokens is a decent deck. However, I would expect it to be much slower and more disruptive than BW tokens. The two decks would likely play very differently.
Mardu with many cheap creatures/disruption or just straight out mardu control are possibly the best options currently possible. Unless we are all missing some card, or a new one is printed, in which case that may blow this all wide open.
Thanks for replying! I don't want to sound argumentative for the sake of being argumentative but I would like to address some points further, beyond what I've already made:
My comment about judge's familiar was not a one-on-one comparison but rather if you played a turn 1 familiar, you'd be dealing 3 damage by turn 4 and still have utility as a fodder and counter-spell. I understand the deck doesn't lose easily by turn 4, at least against an aggro deck, but other decks are simply designed to have better reach over the mid-late game. Tron, Scapeshift, Junk, Jund, BW tokens, any control, etc. simply have greater reach than anything Mardu comes up with late-game. Our late-game plans can be described in two words: so-so impact and high-risk. Even in magic Christmas land, where we have Butcher survive two turns with plenty of tokens to eat backed by SSV, that is relatively low impact for an essentially lucky, high-risk board state. Tron taps out for Emrakul by the time that happens. Even if we get a broken man-land in the next set, it wouldn't cover the egregious flaws of the deck in general. We simply need better creatures dedicated to Mardu colors and strategy. Hopefully, we get some someday.
Mardu tokens is designed to be much faster than BW tokens. That is the point of adding lightning bolt, lightning helix, mardu tokens, midnight haunting, etc. More instant speed token generators and reach speeds up the game. The mana base is consistent because fortunately we have access to blackcleaved cliffs and the fact that only one card in the deck requires double mana of one color (I run Elspeth, Knight-errant).
Initially, BW token players didn't even play raise the alarm because they were discouraged by its lack of flying tokens. But they realized playing things like Tidehollow Sculler and Brimaz were much worse because they required you to play honor of the pure over intangible virtue and because they turned on removal. They also realized raise the alarm was quite good because it was instant speed. That's a theme I would like to emphasize over and over: instant speed is not to be underestimated!
You said "Many people choose not to play it in favor of other cards" and that "you don't sacrifice nearly as much as you would adding bolts, charms, etc." People who initially tried to splash red into BW tokens did so by using creature token-generators (e.g Pyromancer). I think this is the wrong way to go! You need to get cast two instant/ sorcery speed to get the same value as a raise the alarm from a pyromancer, and you also lose the instant speed. Of course, you still have the pyromancer for fodder.... So my point? My point is this: people choosing not to play something isn't always indicative of the right decisions, particularly if they don't even test the cards in the first place. I only find the general consensus useful after a bunch of people reflect on how the cards tested. People severely underestimated Tarmogoyf when it first came out... and more and more people started testing it.
And what exactly do we sacrifice by adding in bolts, charms, etc.? You didn't clarify. I think all we are sacrificing is what we wanted to lose in the first place: creatures and inefficient removal spells (path to exile, go for the throat, etc). The only thing we didn't want to lose was a couple of utility lands and spectral procession, although I have made arguments for the latter already. I'm not sure if having ghost quarters would make combo match-ups like Tron significantly better because they are the bane of token decks. But Mardu has better match-up against Tron than BW token I believe because its tempo is faster.
Any tier two deck is better than this one, thats just how it is right now. Sure, some of these decks are designed to have more reach, but thats partially because we arent building decks with reach, and not because they cant be built.
I agree with your points about rwb tokens, mainly. Its true that people don't always make the right desicions.
I don't think path is an inefficient removal spell, and other black based removal (ala murderous cut, dismember, go for the throat, etc) is still quite good. Dreadbore, terminate, and lighnting bolt all outclass them, of course. I guess I would need to actually see a lot more games with rwb tokens than I have, but I feel that by adding so many discard, removal, etc, you end up with less focus on the actual token makers, the anthems, etc. If your tokens take longer to get bigger/get enough of them, sure you will sometimes make up that damage with burn, but not always. In the first few turns, you are heavily capped by mana, and I think thats bigger for tokens than the lack of reach or anything else. Red does not really solve that problem. Sure, your mana base may be consistant, but it will be less consistent than 2 colors, and you will occassionaly lose to cards like blood moon. BW tokens is a fine deck, but I just don't think adding red makes its a better deck. Perhaps not a worse one, but its moving sideways, not forwards.
Let's assume the most likely comparable decks are Jund (midrange) and Grixis (combo, tempo and aggro-control). This means we are looking at what Wx uniquely brings:
Tokens
Lifegain
Blink/flicker effects
Hatebears/hatebirds
Mass reanimation
Walkers: Sorin, Elspeth, Ajani
Is it fair to say that any Mardu deck not relying on one of those is going to be a worse version of X? If so, how can we piece together the strengths of RB with these unique W facets?
You make valid concerns about the rwb token build but check out the link I posted earlier.
The standard bw token uses this shell: 2-6 creatures, 4 lingering souls, 4 spectral, 4 other token generator, 3-6 anthems, 4-8 removals (four of which are path to exile), and finally 4-8 hand disruption.
My deck replaces those 2-6 creatures with more token generators, so actually RWB has a more consistent gameplay on top of flexibility. The only creatures I would consider running is hero of the bladehold, and only out of the side board after my opponent removes 1-for-1 removals.
In addition, we run pretty much the same number of removals and hand disruptions. Only this time, our options are more efficient. Path to exile is only efficient against big fatty creatures, so I keep it at 1 or 2 in the main deck. The rest are filled with lightning bolts.
Concerning the BWx builds, I also think that the deck would benefit from a green splash as well. Green provides it with abrupt decay, gavony township, voice of resurgence. Voice of resurgence likes to get killed... that's why it is acceptable to run it in a token deck. If you splash blue, I suppose you don't really get much out of it. You have serum visions, snapcaster mage, supreme verdict, esper charm, azorius charm, etc. I can't really think of much else. None of the cards have any significant synergy with BW tokens
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abbot of Kheral Keep
4 Lingering Souls
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ajani, Vengeant
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Helix
2 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
2 Dragonskull Summit
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Blood Moon
2 Rest in Peace
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Rending Volley
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 raise the alarm
2 secure the wastes
4 lingering souls
4 spectral procession
1 murderous cut
4 inquisition of kozilek
1 thoughtseize
1 sorin, lord of innistrad
1 sorin, solemn visitor
4 intangible virtue
I just dug this list up, I had made it a month or two ago. Nothing particularly inventive here, it seems pretty standard.
Lets move this list to dega.
2 lightning helix
4 path to exile
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 lingering souls
4 raise the alarm
2 secure the wastes
4 bitterblossom
1 sorin, lord of innistrad
1 sorin solemn visitor
24 lands
Now that deck certainly isnt bad, but it doesn't really feel "better". Both of them seem pretty decent, you have a good mix of interaction, token makers, anthems, and lands. Both seem like playable modern decks. Sure they could be improved with play testing, and such, but I don't really see them getting that much better. Just another note, but path to exile is just as efficient against a goblin guide as it is against a tasigur. Unless they have already gotten value out of their creature (ala shiege rhino) or you've made a questionable play (pathing their birdy), kill whatever you need to kill, you're only spending 1 mana, and their getting their land no matter what you kill. Sure it is usually smart to save your removal for what needs it, but that doesn't change the efficiency.
Personally, Mardu is sort of a mix of Jund and Junk. You get both lingering souls and lightning bolt, both Kommand and path. You really do have to focus on the noncreatures that the lack of green forces you to look at. Sure you get bob, fulms, etc, but you miss out on rhinos, goyfs, and scoozes.
The way I see it are we several options these colors allow: Aggro. Its do-able, sure, but I think I can speak for most of us when we say that just playing goblin guides and stuff isn't the best we can do. Burn: We have a lot of burn in these colors. Helix, bolt, lavaspike, bump in the night, boros charm, the list goes on. Might be a good deck. But there is a reason naya burn is more common. The black isnt needed, and green helps you fight your hate cards. Tokens. I've said above, I don't think adding red makes BW tokens a better deck. Midrange. Maybe our best bet, as other successful midrange decks have ruled the format, and in theory, this deck can be similar. In practice, it isnt nearly as good. Butcher/aristocrats. Butcher and falkenwrath seem like good cards. We've recently gotten several new spells that allow us to recur several creatures at once. The deck seems to build itself. The deck still seems somewhat weak for modern, however. Control. There was a chaos control thread in the deck creation forums a while ago. Sure, its playable, but why not play jeskai, or esper, or sultai, or just uw, or just play blue. Control seems to require blue unless you plan to play only against fair decks.
This doesn't leave us in a very good spot. Unless new cards are found/printed, most of these decks will remain in adequacy. We could just splash green, or blue for our control decks, but this thread is WBR midrange, and while its pretty open, I think if you wanted to splash green, you've ended up with ajundi, or if you splash blue, you've ended up with something closer to esper/jeskai control.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Especially with abbot, path is better than terminate because it costs 1 less. I think you probably want 1 more land.
Yes I would agree this Chandra is too low-impact for Modern. It doesn't alleviate the problems that Mardu have, which is having cards that are too situational oriented. You may as well play burn or zoo if you want to go aggro. And although all the kill spells Mardu has offer some stability into the midrange game, the lack of snapcaster mage makes Mardu less appealing.
And I don't see much point in adding 6cmc Elspeth. Adjusting your mana base for a 2-of in a deck of 60 cards with no way to tutor it and that has no guaranteed "I-win" impact isn't worth playing in Modern. Amazing card in itself though, I agree.
lol path is not better than terminate b/c it gives your opponent land (they both have pluses and minuses).
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
And her possibly being too slow against combo isn't that likely once you get them locked under a Liliana.
I personally would not play 6 cmc cards with bob. Then you might switch to phyrexian arena/chandra/outpost siege, but then your whole deck becomes noticably slower. Sure thats doable, but elspeth can easily be killed, and while you say shes not too slow with a lily lock, neither is butcher or olivia, or what have you. That being said, if you wanted to play a much slower/controlling build of mardu, sun's champion is great. If you were to do that, kommand, lavamancer, fulm, souls, discard, removal, board wipes and planeswalkers should likely be the extent of what you are running. Your deck is not far off from that, but i think the abbots/bobs should turn into lands, mainboard fulminators, and another helix or two. Soulfire grandmaster is also an option in that type of deck if you want a cheaper creature.