Ive been working on storm for about 3 weeks now after seeing a version of it pop up in the dailies about a month back. I made some changes to that list to fit my tastes, and this is the list ive arrived at:
As you can see, its very different from Finkel's list.
The biggest difference you will notice is the use of Gifts Ungiven as opposed to Increasing Vengeance. I have never liked Twincast effects. I hate how they do nothing on their own and i hate how they dont help you set up the combo. Gifts on the other hand does both. It is an instant speed quadruple Demonic Tutor that sets up both Past in Flames and Grapeshot all at once.
I increased the land count to 17. I've always played 16 lands in storm dating back to TEPS in old extended, but i felt that this version was a bit more mana-hungry than its predecessors. I also feel that hitting one's land drops is the best way to beat decks with counterspells. It is quite easy to play through a cryptic when you have 5 lands, not so much when you have 2.
Ive never been a fan of Desperate Ravings, but i am a huge fan of Faithless Looting. While the fact that you only discard 1 to Ravings is nice, the fact that its random has lost me many games. Looting on the other hand is IMO the closest thing we have to Brainstorm+fetch in modern. It basically lets us cycle dead cards in hand, especially excess lands during the combo turn, into real cards we want. Its also sweet that it sets up ascension.
That thread has become about 3 or 4 color control shells with a storm combo finish, not exactly the right place to discuss this version. This thread on the other hand is about UR Storm, so it fits.
If the only version people want to discuss in this thread is Finkel's version and making a few small tweaks then that's fine, I posted my list to start some dialog about different ways to go about building the archetype.
I can't but think he top 16ed because a) he's one of the top 5 magic players of all time and b) the meta is incredibly soft to a deck that's dead. You ask why he didn't need echoing truth for rule of law or ether sworn cannonist, because nobody is playing those cards because storm isn't a deck.
I can't but think he top 16ed because a) he's one of the top 5 magic players of all time and b) the meta is incredibly soft to a deck that's dead. You ask why he didn't need echoing truth for rule of law or ether sworn cannonist, because nobody is playing those cards because storm isn't a deck.
+1, i hate to agree with this, but with 8 rituals the deck is just too weak, even with finkel chosing it for a gp, to me, the real problem of the deck is the graveyard dependance
+1, i hate to agree with this, but with 8 rituals the deck is just too weak, even with finkel chosing it for a gp, to me, the real problem of the deck is the graveyard dependance
The fact that there was zero Storm hate and very little graveyard hate in the metagame is why he saw that level of success. It meant that he could lean on his Ascensions to get there. The list is good, but I don't believe it's anything above tier three, to be honest.
I would actually be really interested to read a tournament report from him. We saw a couple of matches on camera; one in which he got utterly destroyed, and one in which he mised some wins out of nowhere. I want to know how much of his success was due to variance vs deck quality.
Regardless, it's fun to know that the deck can work. If you have the pieces, it could be a fun deck to take to a Modern FNM; you could probably get some good results with it.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
I can't but think he top 16ed because a) he's one of the top 5 magic players of all time and b) the meta is incredibly soft to a deck that's dead. You ask why he didn't need echoing truth for rule of law or ether sworn cannonist, because nobody is playing those cards because storm isn't a deck.
Yep, nobody disagrees with that. He surprised people as no one plays Storm hate anymore. I suggested Echoing Truth not because I think he should have played it, but for people who are playing it now, as a bit of hate will probably see play as people try this again.
Yep, nobody disagrees with that. He surprised people as no one plays Storm hate anymore. I suggested Echoing Truth not because I think he should have played it, but for people who are playing it now, as a bit of hate will probably see play as people try this again.
Yeah this is now Legacy Dredge. You can beat tons of unprepared players. Once you do you better have a second deck for the next week.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Do not be so quick to dismiss a deck that has resurfaced under a week ago. There is still much testing to be done and the deck has certainly not reached an established version. Much of Magic is deck building and that is something we are still in the process of doing. We shall see how viable the deck is once people start experimenting with Finkel's list.
I think what you're missing is that I have played this list. A lot. It is streamlined and redundant. In order to keep this deck good you need to be willing to be like Dredge is in Legacy. Ergo you need to just focus on doing what this deck does best. I think junking the deck up with a bunch of higher cc cards isn't going to make the deck better. I agree that the deck needs answer to grave hate but at the same time you will dilute the deck when you are doing this. Dredge is at its best game 1 and then you hope to dodge hate for games 2 and 3.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I will be the first to admit I don't have the affinity for combo as many people I know do, in fact I'm probably the kind of person who would just build decks to directly oppose combo decks if it were as big as a force before all the seething songs and second sunrise were banned. The simple fact is that this format is not ready for Storm in its current state. If you intend to play at GP Kansas, and if the format still hasn't adapted yet, GP Detroit, Storm is a very good choice to pick.
The problem as you have all stated is that is a lot less forgiving than its seething song iterations. But so long as GY is not as prominent, and players getting into the format don't practice the match up, you will at the very least make Day 2.
I was grinding a lot on Modo today just to play the deck and prove the concepts and recreate the same results that Mr. Finkle managed to achieve, and the deck is really a lot more consistent than I believe most people remember it to be. Just because you don't have those easy wins with seething song doesn't mean that you couldn't of won those very matches where you did have access to seething song back in the day. And honestly the deck forces you to just make the correct decision and know the numbers before committing to a play.
I'm going to take this on a couple Daily Events next week as I have to focus on Standard for the States here, but I expect that despite the increased GY hate on Modo it will still perform very well.
Also to comment on the idea of playing Epic Experiment, there is absolutely no reason to dilute the consistency for a little more explosiveness (read: win more). If you would win because you had an Epic Experiment, you would of probably just of easily won if you just combo off as usual. This deck has very little margin for error as is, trying to play a card to make is easier is just asking for trouble.
Lastly, Increasing Vengeance is a really weak affect. Unlike eggs you don't actually get to combo off while something is on the stack because only a handful of spells are instant speed. If indeed you want the affect, Twin Cast is superior as you can actually use it to counter their spells and the fact that if you can already flashback increasing vengeance you most likely already won.
Also to comment on the idea of playing Epic Experiment, there is absolutely no reason to dilute the consistency for a little more explosiveness (read: win more). If you would win because you had an Epic Experiment, you would of probably just of easily won if you just combo off as usual. This deck has very little margin for error as is, trying to play a card to make is easier is just asking for trouble.
From my testing, it has not been win more. I have won more games because I had Experiment over Peer than I would have won had I had Peer over Experiment. I admit the sample size is only around 30 games, but that's still better than nothing; my guess is most people on this forum make generalizations with far fewer cases.
Overall, Experiment is really a metagame call. Against UWR Control and Scapeshift, I would never play Experiment; getting an Experiment hit by a Cryptic Command is a major blowout. If these decks continue to show up in force, then Experiment is a bad choice (and indeed those decks look to be the FOTM).
But against the omnipresent 4-5 color goodstuff decks, like Jund, I'd much rather have the Experiment than anything else. One of the problems in the Jund matchup is getting Electromancer or Ascension to stick. They tend to get discarded or killed. But in order to reliably answer your threats, Jund can't apply a super fast clock. That's a tradeoff that Experiment capitalizes on, because it makes a topdecked Ascension so much scarier. It is also a threat in itself, which weakens the Jund discard arsenal.
Experiment is also strong in the aggro matchup when you can't reliably stick an Electromancer (except against Affinity, which plays light removal). Also against Pod, when you don't want them to develop their board too much. It helps you explode on turn 3 or 4, especially with Ascension, with a much lower fizzle chance than when using Peer.
What I found is that against attrition decks such as Jund/Junk, siding into Leyline and accumulating enough mana to have Pyromancer Ascension in play already with a couple cards in the GY. Cast the Electromancer and proceed to Storm off with rituals and can trips.
Pretty much the key against any deck that has removal is to hold electromancer until you are absolutely ready to storm. But even then, just simply having an active Ascension is enough to do the job.
Though as I am approaching this from a meta perspective, UWR is everywhere, Rock decks are at an all time low.
Lastly, Increasing Vengeance is a really weak affect. Unlike eggs you don't actually get to combo off while something is on the stack because only a handful of spells are instant speed. If indeed you want the affect, Twin Cast is superior as you can actually use it to counter their spells and the fact that if you can already flashback increasing vengeance you most likely already won.
That's a really interesting point. Does the "double copy" effect on IV matter more than the fact that it can only copy your stuff? You can't reliably cast Twincast in this deck, but you could reliably cast Reverberate, which could serve a lot of the same uses as IV while also being a clunky counterspell if the situation called for it.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
I think what you're missing is that I have played this list. A lot. It is streamlined and redundant. In order to keep this deck good you need to be willing to be like Dredge is in Legacy. Ergo you need to just focus on doing what this deck does best.
...
Dredge is at its best game 1 and then you hope to dodge hate for games 2 and 3.
I agree with this, but only to an extent. Storm is at its best when nobody thinks its good, and Finkel was able to capitalize on this at the GP. Like dredge, it is very capable of taking down an event when opponents under-prepare for it.
What i disagree with is your oversimplification of how dredge plays a 3 game match. Dredge wins game 1, figures out what hate you have game 2, then plays around it game 3.
I think junking the deck up with a bunch of higher cc cards isn't going to make the deck better.
This i disagree with strongly, not because its necessarily incorrect, but because I feel that it signals an unwillingness to try new ways to build the deck.
Half of the people on these forums refused to think our deck was capable of anything until the GP, now its on us to prove that it has a place in the meta. If we just accept Finkel's list as optimal, we are never going to make any progress towards that. We should be happy for him and for his accomplishment, yet scrutinize his list and try new ways of making the deck run. If that means we have to test some higher cmc cards, so be it. I am personally having great success with Gifts Ungiven online and posted my list earlier. Is it better than Finkels? I have no idea, but its certainly another way to go about building the deck and at the very least should be considered
That's a really interesting point. Does the "double copy" effect on IV matter more than the fact that it can only copy your stuff? You can't reliably cast Twincast in this deck, but you could reliably cast Reverberate, which could serve a lot of the same uses as IV while also being a clunky counterspell if the situation called for it.
Actually yes, I FB IV on Manamorphose a good amount of the time, draw 3 add 6 mana to your pool is pretty good
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This i disagree with strongly, not because its necessarily incorrect, but because I feel that it signals an unwillingness to try new ways to build the deck.
Half of the people on these forums refused to think our deck was capable of anything until the GP, now its on us to prove that it has a place in the meta. If we just accept Finkel's list as optimal, we are never going to make any progress towards that. We should be happy for him and for his accomplishment, yet scrutinize his list and try new ways of making the deck run. If that means we have to test some higher cmc cards, so be it. I am personally having great success with Gifts Ungiven online and posted my list earlier. Is it better than Finkels? I have no idea, but its certainly another way to go about building the deck and at the very least should be considered
So let's tackle this subject of further exploring options in this archetype. In theory any card, not just Gifts Ungiven, that is past the 3-4 CMC mark that isn't core to the engine bogs the deck down. So giving the common scenario where you only have 2 rituals, a manamorphose, a can trip, and a past in flames in the GY with 4 mana up, we can see that sequencing quite readily. Now let's dial this a turn ago and say we only go there because of gifts because we searched up the manamorphose and a ritual with Past in Flames and manamorphose pitched to the grave. Good situation to be in regardless of how you look at it as the odds are favorable to not fizzle.
But out of those many times where Gifts might actually compile the cards that you actually require, does gifts not just put a strain on the resources the deck has when you must first consider that we are now reaching past the 6-8 4 CMC realm, thus we must alter the mana base to encompass an effective card. The second thing to consider is that if we are looking to trim cards for the list we are probably going to look into trimming can trips to create room for gifts, thus in those instances where we could have used the earlier turns to just dig for spells and making use of effective mana instead of sitting till turn 4 to hopefully hit the prerequisite number of lands and risk the chance that we get tempo'ed out by a single counter spell?
I see while something like Gifts is a powerful source of card advantage, I also see that it slows the deck down for "consistency". Seeing as that there are multiple Turn 4 decks out there, I'm not entirely sure that since we are already going to be doing nothing but using our life as a resource to play lands and probe while taking potential beats is a logical direction to take.
The last point I guess I would like to make is that, while yes if all people do is look to tournament results we will never put ourselves in a position to innovate. But to say that and propose a certain card that may sound like a great idea, I believe it is the burden of the person who proposed the idea to test and show by giving actual results, in the case here, in a competitive field such as Premier Events online, GPs, or PTQs. Other things that should qualifiy as relevant results would be consistant 3-0s in 8 mans, or going 4-0 in Daily Events online or at a LGS with 32+ individuals with a variety of skill level players and deck archetypes. What I'm trying to convey is that Finkle's list sticks to the core fundamentals that made Storm work pre seething song ban, and multiple people have posted good results with the old iteration of the deck without Gifts in a more relevant meta. Thus I don't believe people are not inclined to innovate, it is the idea that how can anyone justify slotting such an unintuitive card without some positive reinforcement that the card will actually do well.
If we broke down the engine of Storm, I'm sure we wouldn't require the time to be placed into placing well in events but I'm not sure any of us are qualified to actually break down every single facet without having educate everyone on all the complexities of Magic Theory before we start analyzing the specific quantities of cards as that person would probably already be inducted into the Hall of Fame and be regarded as a Pro. So with cards such as Epic Experiment, a card that requires the opponent to interact with spell minimally, and Gifts, a card the looks to be a bit too slow, I think the majority of the people reading and posting on this thread need a little more convincing beyond an individuals opinion when someone as great as Jon Finkle picked a deck list that seems very plain and performed very well without all the special frills of Epic Experiment and Gifts.
Just played this for the first time (actually first time I play a combo deck, used to hate them all :P). Faced MonoU Tron online, opp taps out for Solemn with Electromancer in play and I win (went up to 24 but could just keep going until decking myself apparently). IV's "double copy" was very nice, used it on Manamorphose twice. I was already with a high storm count, so a Reverberate would probably be just as fine, but I believe it's relevant. My opponent just ragequit after 25 Grapeshots killed him.
It's not Storm per se, he calls it just Pyromancer Ascension. The combo revolves around an active Ascension, Revival, Manamorphose and Bolt/Scour as the kill spells.
But out of those many times where Gifts might actually compile the cards that you actually require, does gifts not just put a strain on the resources the deck has when you must first consider that we are now reaching past the 6-8 4 CMC realm, thus we must alter the mana base to encompass an effective card. The second thing to consider is that if we are looking to trim cards for the list we are probably going to look into trimming can trips to create room for gifts, thus in those instances where we could have used the earlier turns to just dig for spells and making use of effective mana instead of sitting till turn 4 to hopefully hit the prerequisite number of lands and risk the chance that we get tempo'ed out by a single counter spell?
We do not need to look to the cantrips when trying to make room for gifts. I actually increased the number of 1-mana cantrips from 12 to 15 in my gifts list. The power of the card advantage provided by gifts is what creates room for it in the main. Why do we need to play 3 copies of Grapeshot when gifts lets us get away with 1 with no issues of finding it? Do we really need 3 Past in Flames when gifts sets it up so nicely? I am currently playing 2 PiF and 1 Grapeshot in my list and have never had issues finding the singleton grapeshot. Maybe im just lucky, or maybe im just used to playing combo decks with a singleton win con, but playing 1 grapeshot works for me.
I know that most people reading this thread are going to disagree with using gifts without some form of results to back it up. Many players in this thread are going to disagree with Epic Experiment for the exact same reasons. Im not saying that gifts or experiment are better, because frankly i have no statistics to back that kind of statement up. What i am however saying is that we should, if we want to see storm be a real contender in modern, work together to test these options out. With that goal in mind, ill take the first step.
To everyone reading this thread: If you have a storm list that you want feedback on, give it to me either here in this thread, via PM or on cockatrice and i will do my best to test it and give you feedback.
I love storm. I have most of the deck foiled out and still keep TEPS sleeved up on my desk. I want to see it be a contender in modern. I want to try different versions, test them and tweak them until we find the optimal storm build. If you love storm as much as me, join me in testing other players lists.
1 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Shivan Reef
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Steam Vents
Creatures (3)
3 Goblin Electromancer
Enchantments (4)
4 Pyromancer Ascension
Instants (18)
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Manamorphose
3 Peer Through Depths
4 Pyretic Ritual
3 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
2 Past in Flames
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ignite Memories
3 Ignorant Bliss
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pact of Negation
2 Shattering Spree
As you can see, its very different from Finkel's list.
The biggest difference you will notice is the use of Gifts Ungiven as opposed to Increasing Vengeance. I have never liked Twincast effects. I hate how they do nothing on their own and i hate how they dont help you set up the combo. Gifts on the other hand does both. It is an instant speed quadruple Demonic Tutor that sets up both Past in Flames and Grapeshot all at once.
I increased the land count to 17. I've always played 16 lands in storm dating back to TEPS in old extended, but i felt that this version was a bit more mana-hungry than its predecessors. I also feel that hitting one's land drops is the best way to beat decks with counterspells. It is quite easy to play through a cryptic when you have 5 lands, not so much when you have 2.
Ive never been a fan of Desperate Ravings, but i am a huge fan of Faithless Looting. While the fact that you only discard 1 to Ravings is nice, the fact that its random has lost me many games. Looting on the other hand is IMO the closest thing we have to Brainstorm+fetch in modern. It basically lets us cycle dead cards in hand, especially excess lands during the combo turn, into real cards we want. Its also sweet that it sets up ascension.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=384937
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
That thread has become about 3 or 4 color control shells with a storm combo finish, not exactly the right place to discuss this version. This thread on the other hand is about UR Storm, so it fits.
If the only version people want to discuss in this thread is Finkel's version and making a few small tweaks then that's fine, I posted my list to start some dialog about different ways to go about building the archetype.
+1, i hate to agree with this, but with 8 rituals the deck is just too weak, even with finkel chosing it for a gp, to me, the real problem of the deck is the graveyard dependance
The fact that there was zero Storm hate and very little graveyard hate in the metagame is why he saw that level of success. It meant that he could lean on his Ascensions to get there. The list is good, but I don't believe it's anything above tier three, to be honest.
I would actually be really interested to read a tournament report from him. We saw a couple of matches on camera; one in which he got utterly destroyed, and one in which he mised some wins out of nowhere. I want to know how much of his success was due to variance vs deck quality.
Regardless, it's fun to know that the deck can work. If you have the pieces, it could be a fun deck to take to a Modern FNM; you could probably get some good results with it.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Yep, nobody disagrees with that. He surprised people as no one plays Storm hate anymore. I suggested Echoing Truth not because I think he should have played it, but for people who are playing it now, as a bit of hate will probably see play as people try this again.
Yeah this is now Legacy Dredge. You can beat tons of unprepared players. Once you do you better have a second deck for the next week.
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I think what you're missing is that I have played this list. A lot. It is streamlined and redundant. In order to keep this deck good you need to be willing to be like Dredge is in Legacy. Ergo you need to just focus on doing what this deck does best. I think junking the deck up with a bunch of higher cc cards isn't going to make the deck better. I agree that the deck needs answer to grave hate but at the same time you will dilute the deck when you are doing this. Dredge is at its best game 1 and then you hope to dodge hate for games 2 and 3.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
The problem as you have all stated is that is a lot less forgiving than its seething song iterations. But so long as GY is not as prominent, and players getting into the format don't practice the match up, you will at the very least make Day 2.
I was grinding a lot on Modo today just to play the deck and prove the concepts and recreate the same results that Mr. Finkle managed to achieve, and the deck is really a lot more consistent than I believe most people remember it to be. Just because you don't have those easy wins with seething song doesn't mean that you couldn't of won those very matches where you did have access to seething song back in the day. And honestly the deck forces you to just make the correct decision and know the numbers before committing to a play.
I'm going to take this on a couple Daily Events next week as I have to focus on Standard for the States here, but I expect that despite the increased GY hate on Modo it will still perform very well.
Also to comment on the idea of playing Epic Experiment, there is absolutely no reason to dilute the consistency for a little more explosiveness (read: win more). If you would win because you had an Epic Experiment, you would of probably just of easily won if you just combo off as usual. This deck has very little margin for error as is, trying to play a card to make is easier is just asking for trouble.
Lastly, Increasing Vengeance is a really weak affect. Unlike eggs you don't actually get to combo off while something is on the stack because only a handful of spells are instant speed. If indeed you want the affect, Twin Cast is superior as you can actually use it to counter their spells and the fact that if you can already flashback increasing vengeance you most likely already won.
From my testing, it has not been win more. I have won more games because I had Experiment over Peer than I would have won had I had Peer over Experiment. I admit the sample size is only around 30 games, but that's still better than nothing; my guess is most people on this forum make generalizations with far fewer cases.
Overall, Experiment is really a metagame call. Against UWR Control and Scapeshift, I would never play Experiment; getting an Experiment hit by a Cryptic Command is a major blowout. If these decks continue to show up in force, then Experiment is a bad choice (and indeed those decks look to be the FOTM).
But against the omnipresent 4-5 color goodstuff decks, like Jund, I'd much rather have the Experiment than anything else. One of the problems in the Jund matchup is getting Electromancer or Ascension to stick. They tend to get discarded or killed. But in order to reliably answer your threats, Jund can't apply a super fast clock. That's a tradeoff that Experiment capitalizes on, because it makes a topdecked Ascension so much scarier. It is also a threat in itself, which weakens the Jund discard arsenal.
Experiment is also strong in the aggro matchup when you can't reliably stick an Electromancer (except against Affinity, which plays light removal). Also against Pod, when you don't want them to develop their board too much. It helps you explode on turn 3 or 4, especially with Ascension, with a much lower fizzle chance than when using Peer.
Pretty much the key against any deck that has removal is to hold electromancer until you are absolutely ready to storm. But even then, just simply having an active Ascension is enough to do the job.
Though as I am approaching this from a meta perspective, UWR is everywhere, Rock decks are at an all time low.
That's a really interesting point. Does the "double copy" effect on IV matter more than the fact that it can only copy your stuff? You can't reliably cast Twincast in this deck, but you could reliably cast Reverberate, which could serve a lot of the same uses as IV while also being a clunky counterspell if the situation called for it.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
I agree with this, but only to an extent. Storm is at its best when nobody thinks its good, and Finkel was able to capitalize on this at the GP. Like dredge, it is very capable of taking down an event when opponents under-prepare for it.
What i disagree with is your oversimplification of how dredge plays a 3 game match. Dredge wins game 1, figures out what hate you have game 2, then plays around it game 3.
This i disagree with strongly, not because its necessarily incorrect, but because I feel that it signals an unwillingness to try new ways to build the deck.
Half of the people on these forums refused to think our deck was capable of anything until the GP, now its on us to prove that it has a place in the meta. If we just accept Finkel's list as optimal, we are never going to make any progress towards that. We should be happy for him and for his accomplishment, yet scrutinize his list and try new ways of making the deck run. If that means we have to test some higher cmc cards, so be it. I am personally having great success with Gifts Ungiven online and posted my list earlier. Is it better than Finkels? I have no idea, but its certainly another way to go about building the deck and at the very least should be considered
Actually yes, I FB IV on Manamorphose a good amount of the time, draw 3 add 6 mana to your pool is pretty good
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So let's tackle this subject of further exploring options in this archetype. In theory any card, not just Gifts Ungiven, that is past the 3-4 CMC mark that isn't core to the engine bogs the deck down. So giving the common scenario where you only have 2 rituals, a manamorphose, a can trip, and a past in flames in the GY with 4 mana up, we can see that sequencing quite readily. Now let's dial this a turn ago and say we only go there because of gifts because we searched up the manamorphose and a ritual with Past in Flames and manamorphose pitched to the grave. Good situation to be in regardless of how you look at it as the odds are favorable to not fizzle.
But out of those many times where Gifts might actually compile the cards that you actually require, does gifts not just put a strain on the resources the deck has when you must first consider that we are now reaching past the 6-8 4 CMC realm, thus we must alter the mana base to encompass an effective card. The second thing to consider is that if we are looking to trim cards for the list we are probably going to look into trimming can trips to create room for gifts, thus in those instances where we could have used the earlier turns to just dig for spells and making use of effective mana instead of sitting till turn 4 to hopefully hit the prerequisite number of lands and risk the chance that we get tempo'ed out by a single counter spell?
I see while something like Gifts is a powerful source of card advantage, I also see that it slows the deck down for "consistency". Seeing as that there are multiple Turn 4 decks out there, I'm not entirely sure that since we are already going to be doing nothing but using our life as a resource to play lands and probe while taking potential beats is a logical direction to take.
The last point I guess I would like to make is that, while yes if all people do is look to tournament results we will never put ourselves in a position to innovate. But to say that and propose a certain card that may sound like a great idea, I believe it is the burden of the person who proposed the idea to test and show by giving actual results, in the case here, in a competitive field such as Premier Events online, GPs, or PTQs. Other things that should qualifiy as relevant results would be consistant 3-0s in 8 mans, or going 4-0 in Daily Events online or at a LGS with 32+ individuals with a variety of skill level players and deck archetypes. What I'm trying to convey is that Finkle's list sticks to the core fundamentals that made Storm work pre seething song ban, and multiple people have posted good results with the old iteration of the deck without Gifts in a more relevant meta. Thus I don't believe people are not inclined to innovate, it is the idea that how can anyone justify slotting such an unintuitive card without some positive reinforcement that the card will actually do well.
If we broke down the engine of Storm, I'm sure we wouldn't require the time to be placed into placing well in events but I'm not sure any of us are qualified to actually break down every single facet without having educate everyone on all the complexities of Magic Theory before we start analyzing the specific quantities of cards as that person would probably already be inducted into the Hall of Fame and be regarded as a Pro. So with cards such as Epic Experiment, a card that requires the opponent to interact with spell minimally, and Gifts, a card the looks to be a bit too slow, I think the majority of the people reading and posting on this thread need a little more convincing beyond an individuals opinion when someone as great as Jon Finkle picked a deck list that seems very plain and performed very well without all the special frills of Epic Experiment and Gifts.
1 Mountain
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Shivan Reef
2 Steam Vents
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Noxious Revival
4 Remand
4 Thought Scour
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
It's not Storm per se, he calls it just Pyromancer Ascension. The combo revolves around an active Ascension, Revival, Manamorphose and Bolt/Scour as the kill spells.
We do not need to look to the cantrips when trying to make room for gifts. I actually increased the number of 1-mana cantrips from 12 to 15 in my gifts list. The power of the card advantage provided by gifts is what creates room for it in the main. Why do we need to play 3 copies of Grapeshot when gifts lets us get away with 1 with no issues of finding it? Do we really need 3 Past in Flames when gifts sets it up so nicely? I am currently playing 2 PiF and 1 Grapeshot in my list and have never had issues finding the singleton grapeshot. Maybe im just lucky, or maybe im just used to playing combo decks with a singleton win con, but playing 1 grapeshot works for me.
I know that most people reading this thread are going to disagree with using gifts without some form of results to back it up. Many players in this thread are going to disagree with Epic Experiment for the exact same reasons. Im not saying that gifts or experiment are better, because frankly i have no statistics to back that kind of statement up. What i am however saying is that we should, if we want to see storm be a real contender in modern, work together to test these options out. With that goal in mind, ill take the first step.
To everyone reading this thread: If you have a storm list that you want feedback on, give it to me either here in this thread, via PM or on cockatrice and i will do my best to test it and give you feedback.
I love storm. I have most of the deck foiled out and still keep TEPS sleeved up on my desk. I want to see it be a contender in modern. I want to try different versions, test them and tweak them until we find the optimal storm build. If you love storm as much as me, join me in testing other players lists.
For reference, here is the list I'm working with:
1 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Shivan Reef
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Steam Vents
Creatures (3)
3 Goblin Electromancer
Enchantments (4)
4 Pyromancer Ascension
Instants (18)
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Manamorphose
3 Peer Through Depths
4 Pyretic Ritual
3 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
2 Past in Flames
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ignite Memories
3 Ignorant Bliss
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pact of Negation
2 Shattering Spree