This is a perfect example on why people focus too much about single games rather than the whole thing. Reid making Top 8 convinces me enough NOT to run Path in an open meta. Not TO run it because of that last loss.
Its perfectly fine to run Path. Duke is generally a type of player who doesnt want to give the opponent free advantages. GBx strategy is to cut opponents down on resources through all possible ways (discard, removal, life) and Path naturally doesnt fit that strategy. However, its powerful exilig effect is certainly not neglecatble.
The way I see it, is I try to avoid Path as much as I can, and play as few copies as I need to. Sometimes 1-2 copies are needed for a given meta. But I try to keep it as low as the meta allows it to.
As I see it, Reid's approach is it to kill all the low cmc creatures with Push and Decay. For the remaining problematic creatures he has Thoughtseize, Pulse and a playset of Lilis. Against swarm strategies Path is useless.
It is well known that Path answers threats conveniently.
But I honestly don't get your statement. You are saying Reid doesn't need path because he is a masterclass and all other people need to run path because we arent that good? So there is no room to persue a masterclasses' playstyle like that from Reid to try and become similar good than him?
Reid is surely better than any of us, but the fact that he made top 8 without path instantly tells me path is actually not necessary. If you have decent enough skills, you can live without it.
I honeslty feel Path is almost a lazy tool since it conveniently answers anything, although having an impactful drawback. Reids skill allows him to play around all your stated situations with the other tools he has. And that gives him the big advantage that he doesnt help the opponent to cast their spells by ramping them. Dont you think that is a really amazing skill to have or to persue?
I bet that without path most people would perform worse than with it, but I for one want to try to become better and better every day. And at some point I really think such skills like Reid has is a desirable skill to have. And I personally will do my best to get as close to that as I can.
I am not offended, no worries. The thing for me is, you say you dont do polemics, while making a somewhat controversial statement, thats all.
The deck is closely related to the pilot playing it. The fact that Reid made top 8 without path just prooves that if you are skillful enough and enough aware of the meta, you can do great without having path. And therefore I don't think Path is always "necessary". And therefore I also dont think its useless to talk about reid making top 8.
If you want path to have an easy solution in those difficult situations thats totally fine. Path is still a great card to run, and its probably the tip of the iceberg when talking about this things. I am not saying people should stop playing path. Its actually the other way round, I want to say that its ok to avoid path if you know that it will be harder in certain situations, while having a little higher upside if you pilot the deck well through those situations. I for one want to try that. However, sometimes the effectiveness of Path can ofc not be neglected, but thats a meta decision thing imo.
The fundamental thing though is, and I think we can agree on that: It is better to remove an Angler without giving the opponent a land rather than giving the opponent a land for it.
Reid is surely better than any of us, but the fact that he made top 8 without path instantly tells me path is actually not necessary. If you have decent enough skills, you can live without it.
I honeslty feel Path is almost a lazy tool since it conveniently answers anything, although having an impactful drawback.
Before i say anything, i'm not trying to attack you in any way. Just showing the other side of the coin.
"path is actually not necessary", But the same could be said about Path's drawback, it's not necessarily a drawback. Against small dudes decks, how much of a drawback is it to path on turn 4? The upside for us is that we have 2 more mana to spend (Pulse) that turn and solved the problem, being able to cast a Goyf in addition or whatnot and get ahead.
I hear people talk about the drawback of path so many times, but "If you have decent enough skills" it won't help you're opponent anyway. I think Dismember has more drawbacks than Path throughout the game. Path's real drawback is the early turns, as is Pulse since its 3 mana. But Path has the upside that it is usable in the early turns for critical situations. And like Jund, this decks is best when it can play two spells a turn.
Again, i get your points and Reid showed us we don't need Path if played correctly (massive respect for his performance). But i think Path doesn't need to have an impactful drawback either. When looking at his list i probably would cut 1 pulse and 2 spellbombs for another souls and 2 path. Might need to change the manabase too.
It's all a matter of taste and what you're used to.
"a lazy tool", or unnecessarily complicating?
EDIT:
I also think Reid used 2 spellbombs main for the lack of Path, to create bigger dudes for the non-pushable threats to block or swing back harder.
Yes that is totally true. For some matchups like the one you described, Path wont have an impactful drawback. Hitting a Wurmcoil or whatever.
In fair and attritiona based games I think tough that tempo is less important and CA is. In those type of games Path is in my opinion the worst.
If you do include Path tough, you absolutely have to change the manabase, because Reids base doesnt support path. You also have to cut Treetop villages most likely, which I am generally always excited about to actually play. Rarely we get to use this amazing manland because of colour restrictions. If you only splash white for Souls, you get to run this arguable best manland available to us.
That being said, ofc its a matter of taste. I am just rooting against statements like "Path is necessary and it needs to be run" as well as "You must not run Path". You can run it or not. If you are good enough and if it fits your playstyle, you can do great perfomance in either case. Path is just an easy solution for me.
There's no way I would play Dismember over path---I wouldn't go that far
I find it disheartening people keep saying Reid could have won if not for having path in the top 8
He made it into the top 8, with a bad deck, in a room of the best players in the world, and then proceeded to lose a close game against someone who had god luck, variance based starts.
There's no way I would play Dismember over path---I wouldn't go that far
I find it disheartening people keep saying Reid could have won if not for having path in the top 8
He made it into the top 8, with a bad deck, in a room of the best players in the world, and then proceeded to lose a close game against someone who had god luck, variance based starts.
Very true, it's not a matter of winning the PT. It would end up differently overall. He might've not get to top8 in the first place.
Path just has pros and cons, just like any alternative.
And depending on how you play magic you should decide whether Path is the card for you.
As we could see, one of Reid's definite strengths lies in combat, and thus being less in need of path.
The pros of the alternatives outweigh that of Path for him.
For me path works, i will always have at least two in the main.
i know combat is not my biggest strength. I do know one of my strengths is improvising.
I need path for that, along with cards with multiple options (i.e. Golgari Charm etc.)
I think its good in general to acknowledge and improve your weaknesses, yet the main focus should be on your strengths.
I agree with FlyingDelver on this one. When people say Ried Duke is a better player that us. It comes with the reality that he's a better deck builder than us. I believe all of us are player and a deck builder at the same time. Here's what i see that path is a disadvantage.
CON
- diffused mana denial strat (ried already said this)
- doesn't help with swarm strategy
- exile can lower goyf p/t and ooze
- making opponents get better top deck with a free land (it's the same principle as deck thinning for fetch lands)
I think some people have been thinkering on the deck. I like that he included another Murderous Cut to deal with Delve Threat/Cost Reducing Threat.
Its basically Reids list, except he cut a Spellbomb for an Murderous Cut, which I agree with. I personally would run a Dismember over it but otherwise yes, more removal spells.
I do not like the missing LtLH maindeck and the manabase though.
Its basically Reids list, except he cut a Spellbomb for an Murderous Cut, which I agree with. I personally would run a Dismember over it but otherwise yes, more removal spells.
I do not like the missing LtLH maindeck and the manabase though.
graveyard hate still 6 in total. He replaced Nihil with Grafdigger's Cage and put it in the side. And replaced a Sweeper Removal (LtLH) with Hard Removal.
And Duress upgraded to Thoughtseize and put it at main.
I like the 2 Tectonic Edge too to fight the big mana decks. Personally i would go 2 Field of Ruin so i can use it as a fetchland to fix my colors in a pinch.
Not exactly, he replaced Duress in the SB with a second Cage and cut Spellbomb and LtLH for a 7th discard spell and cut mainboard.
yeah something like that. Just slight nitpick tho. If he's bringing Thoughseize, personally i'll drop 1 Dark Confidant for Grim Flayer so i dont have too much damaging spells against Burn.
Guys, let’s put aside the debate on path.
I have seen list with 2 liliana the last hope in their 75 while some only have 1, what’s the consensus on the number of last hope we should play in what sort of meta a player typically have? And here: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/top-8-my-way-abzan-at-pro-tour-rivals-of-ixalan/ duke mentioned of the different version of humans he lost to in the PT, the one without vial but with path and collected company, how would you sideboard against it? As well as the sideboarding against hollow one, what’s your view and how would you sideboard?
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Reid mentioned in his interview after his win against the Humans deck that he basically brings every card in he has access to that can kill a creature. That means CB/Damnation/LtLH comes in. Spellbomb and TS and some Lingering Souls comes out.
Against Hollow one, I was surprized that he cut LotV. Seeing that deck in action, I am actually less worried about their small creatures (Phoenix and Bloodghast and the red dude) but more worried about a quick Hollow One and Angler. For That reason I would leave LotV in. At least to some extent.
Reid mentioned in his interview after his win against the Humans deck that he basically brings every card in he has access to that can kill a creature. That means CB/Damnation/LtLH comes in. Spellbomb and TS and some Lingering Souls comes out.
Against Hollow one, I was surprized that he cut LotV. Seeing that deck in action, I am actually less worried about their small creatures (Phoenix and Bloodghast and the red dude) but more worried about a quick Hollow One and Angler. For That reason I would leave LotV in. At least to some extent.
TS comes out? I thought that would be good to get CoCo.
Against Abzan CoCo i usually board out IoK and keep the TS.
Am i doing it wrong then?
Against Abzan CoCo yes. Against Humans it depends. If its the non CoCo version I would absolutely board out TS, no question. With CoCo you can probably keep it.
The only matchup that I’m still not sure on how I should sideboard against is still Hollow One, and to a certain extent for mardu and UR Pyromancer too. How do we actually want to tackle them? And sideboarding against death shadow deck, do we actually want fulminator mage in to try and cut them off a color although they frequently floods with all their draws? Is there major difference in sideboarding for Grixis Death’s Shadow and other Death’s Shadow deck?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Deck(s): TappedOut Would love to have more input to improve!
The way I see it, is I try to avoid Path as much as I can, and play as few copies as I need to. Sometimes 1-2 copies are needed for a given meta. But I try to keep it as low as the meta allows it to.
But I honestly don't get your statement. You are saying Reid doesn't need path because he is a masterclass and all other people need to run path because we arent that good? So there is no room to persue a masterclasses' playstyle like that from Reid to try and become similar good than him?
Reid is surely better than any of us, but the fact that he made top 8 without path instantly tells me path is actually not necessary. If you have decent enough skills, you can live without it.
I honeslty feel Path is almost a lazy tool since it conveniently answers anything, although having an impactful drawback. Reids skill allows him to play around all your stated situations with the other tools he has. And that gives him the big advantage that he doesnt help the opponent to cast their spells by ramping them. Dont you think that is a really amazing skill to have or to persue?
I bet that without path most people would perform worse than with it, but I for one want to try to become better and better every day. And at some point I really think such skills like Reid has is a desirable skill to have. And I personally will do my best to get as close to that as I can.
The deck is closely related to the pilot playing it. The fact that Reid made top 8 without path just prooves that if you are skillful enough and enough aware of the meta, you can do great without having path. And therefore I don't think Path is always "necessary". And therefore I also dont think its useless to talk about reid making top 8.
If you want path to have an easy solution in those difficult situations thats totally fine. Path is still a great card to run, and its probably the tip of the iceberg when talking about this things. I am not saying people should stop playing path. Its actually the other way round, I want to say that its ok to avoid path if you know that it will be harder in certain situations, while having a little higher upside if you pilot the deck well through those situations. I for one want to try that. However, sometimes the effectiveness of Path can ofc not be neglected, but thats a meta decision thing imo.
The fundamental thing though is, and I think we can agree on that: It is better to remove an Angler without giving the opponent a land rather than giving the opponent a land for it.
Yes that is totally true. For some matchups like the one you described, Path wont have an impactful drawback. Hitting a Wurmcoil or whatever.
In fair and attritiona based games I think tough that tempo is less important and CA is. In those type of games Path is in my opinion the worst.
If you do include Path tough, you absolutely have to change the manabase, because Reids base doesnt support path. You also have to cut Treetop villages most likely, which I am generally always excited about to actually play. Rarely we get to use this amazing manland because of colour restrictions. If you only splash white for Souls, you get to run this arguable best manland available to us.
That being said, ofc its a matter of taste. I am just rooting against statements like "Path is necessary and it needs to be run" as well as "You must not run Path". You can run it or not. If you are good enough and if it fits your playstyle, you can do great perfomance in either case. Path is just an easy solution for me.
I find it disheartening people keep saying Reid could have won if not for having path in the top 8
He made it into the top 8, with a bad deck, in a room of the best players in the world, and then proceeded to lose a close game against someone who had god luck, variance based starts.
I agree with FlyingDelver on this one. When people say Ried Duke is a better player that us. It comes with the reality that he's a better deck builder than us. I believe all of us are player and a deck builder at the same time. Here's what i see that path is a disadvantage.
CON
- diffused mana denial strat (ried already said this)
- doesn't help with swarm strategy
- exile can lower goyf p/t and ooze
- making opponents get better top deck with a free land (it's the same principle as deck thinning for fetch lands)
I think some people have been thinkering on the deck. I like that he included another Murderous Cut to deal with Delve Threat/Cost Reducing Threat.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-02-06
Its basically Reids list, except he cut a Spellbomb for an Murderous Cut, which I agree with. I personally would run a Dismember over it but otherwise yes, more removal spells.
I do not like the missing LtLH maindeck and the manabase though.
graveyard hate still 6 in total. He replaced Nihil with Grafdigger's Cage and put it in the side. And replaced a Sweeper Removal (LtLH) with Hard Removal.
And Duress upgraded to Thoughtseize and put it at main.
I like the 2 Tectonic Edge too to fight the big mana decks. Personally i would go 2 Field of Ruin so i can use it as a fetchland to fix my colors in a pinch.
yeah something like that. Just slight nitpick tho. If he's bringing Thoughseize, personally i'll drop 1 Dark Confidant for Grim Flayer so i dont have too much damaging spells against Burn.
I have seen list with 2 liliana the last hope in their 75 while some only have 1, what’s the consensus on the number of last hope we should play in what sort of meta a player typically have? And here: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/top-8-my-way-abzan-at-pro-tour-rivals-of-ixalan/ duke mentioned of the different version of humans he lost to in the PT, the one without vial but with path and collected company, how would you sideboard against it? As well as the sideboarding against hollow one, what’s your view and how would you sideboard?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I guess:
-2 Spellbomb
-2 TS
-2 Souls
+3 CB
+2 Damnation
+1 LtLH
Against Hollow one, I was surprized that he cut LotV. Seeing that deck in action, I am actually less worried about their small creatures (Phoenix and Bloodghast and the red dude) but more worried about a quick Hollow One and Angler. For That reason I would leave LotV in. At least to some extent.
Against Abzan CoCo yes. Against Humans it depends. If its the non CoCo version I would absolutely board out TS, no question. With CoCo you can probably keep it.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU