Bitterblossom is either really good or incredibly bad depending on when you draw it. It is actually better suited for a tempo-style of deck, since it is best when you play it early, but you really don't want to grind with that card on the BF. The longer it stays on the BF the more likely it will just kill you. For that reason I think it just doesn't fit very well into the deck.
Main-deck lifegain is handy to make use of Bitterblossom. BW tokens usually uses Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Vault of the Archangel in this role. These are not well-suited for the typical Junk build. I don't know if faeries runs lifegain or not, I haven't seen any in a minute.
I did try BB for a while in Obliterock. I didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling from it but I only played a few games with it.
Straight BW can support BB better in terms of grinding and going for a longer game, yeah. Junk on the other side has little lifegain to compensate for that.
As far as I know Faeries doesn't have lifegain. Its a tempo style of deck anyway, cards like Spellstutter Sprite indicate that.
Some people swear on the "2 rhino, 3 path, 3 flayer - no bob" builds. Other go with 4 confidants and some paths, yet another people think bobs and no paths is the way to go with abzan. Noone really knows whats the "best abzan build" ppl just play what they feel right is my guess. For example, this forum looks to me is much more focused on Abzan with Dark confidants, while the Abzan facebook group circlejerks the "centralized" version with rhinos and paths
I never understood why would abzan players wanna drop dark confidant. Abzan is the same deck as jund in regards to basic gameplan, spell cmc, etc. I dont understand why would grim flayers suddenly be better for abzan, since jund has ran Bobs since like ever with good proven results.
the rationale is that it should shine in matchups against decks like UW and GBx where if BB sticks around for an extended period of time the opp should usually be the first one dead, as well as being somewhat useful against decks like affinity/infect. In those cases, it is usually common to also bring in collective brutality which can help in a pinch as well as our large number of MD oozes.
BB offers a pretty unique angle against the Colonnade decks and i do think we have to position ourselves aggressively in that matchup. Thrun is obviously a house but i find that sometimes we do not have the luxury of playing him with regen mana up and having him verdicted can be a real liability. BB is also a nice fit into the curve since turn 3 is about the time we start attacking their mana, and it is nice to have a resilient 2 drop that can apply pressure as we begin to LD them.
I do agree that i has been pretty polarizing and that is quite poor/slow in some matchups but i think there will always be those kinds of cases when playing a deck like BGx. However, BB is still a real, and importantly resilient threat and while there will be cases where it can be a liability, i think its worth trying and i would encourage others to try it if not just to acquire more data.
Also, BB was a suggestion for the field of ruin BG variant. Obviously in Abzan we would just play lingering souls.
Did Todd Stevens or anyone else have success with Rock in the Open?
When he was on camera, we saw him lose to burn after making some controversial decisions (including not gaining life with CB), and I remember him losing 0-2 against Affinity. I also recall seeing some people in the chat mentionning that he was being carried by his team, but I have not followed closely enough.
I have some matchup specific questions for the rock. What matchups do you bring in Night of souls betrayal? How do you approach the mirror? Should I cut discard? Obviously removal and card-advantage is key, but so are threats.
In the mirror you always cut discard and bring in removal/threats and grindy cards. Don't bring in NoSB when you want your Bob to stick in a certain matchup.
The obvious matchups are: Humans, Affinity, Elves, Mardu Pyromancer where you want NoSB. I personally would not bring it in for the CoCo matchups. It is a matchup where Bob really shines and we want him to stick. That also the reason I don't bring it in against Lingering Souls generally (except Mardu because it shuts down most of their threats)
If you want to splash white for Path you need way more white sources to support. Right now with your 8 sources you can only consistantly (over 90 % probability) cast path on turn 8+ on. You need way more sources, otherwise your Paths will be stranded in your hand.
I suggest, and I did it before, if you want to splash white, only do it for Souls. Or just play straight up Abzan.
Rock with Path doesn't work, you need too many white sources for it to run FoR.
I played Todds list tonight. Went 0-2 drop at the FNM. My first opponent was playing almost a stompy version of our Rock deck. A lot of lists aren't going to do well against it, but I also don't think his list would do well at an open field. I can't beat mainboard Thragtusks, Grave Titans, Traverse, multiple Kitchen Finks.
I lost to a spirits tax deck, choked on mana by my own deck, not because he cut me off.
You guys were right, CB in the main as a 3 of is horrendous. Todd's a great player but I did not like his list when I jammed it on paper. It performed better on MTGO
Sigh. I can't seem to enjoy Rock outside of Jund and occasionally Junk.
Given it was a team event is that fair to say he finished 13th? I would be keen to know what his individual record was. I agree after trying Field of ruin. I think its better in the Rock shell. Also tireless tracker is amazing with FoR.
The card choices fit my playstyle best i think. As someone else said there isnt really a set way to build the best deck but I think its what you are most comfortable with
Butakov is also a great GBx player. I don't know if his list is great, but he definitely leverages his skills against opponents less familiar with their own decks.
I don't think you can go wrong playing his list though
I kinda want to pack in a third Decay in my Rock list, in place of the singleton CB. I think while having 8 discard spells main, it feels like a liability.
I played Todds list tonight. Went 0-2 drop at the FNM. My first opponent was playing almost a stompy version of our Rock deck. A lot of lists aren't going to do well against it, but I also don't think his list would do well at an open field. I can't beat mainboard Thragtusks, Grave Titans, Traverse, multiple Kitchen Finks.
I lost to a spirits tax deck, choked on mana by my own deck, not because he cut me off.
You guys were right, CB in the main as a 3 of is horrendous. Todd's a great player but I did not like his list when I jammed it on paper. It performed better on MTGO
Sigh. I can't seem to enjoy Rock outside of Jund and occasionally Junk.
I think Rock is strong, but we need to find the best configuration. I am experimenting with the numbers right now. I don't think that just copying a decklist from a pro (may it be Reid, Todd, Sol or any great pro player) will never be a perfect list in regards to your personal tastes/playstyle and in regards to meta concessions. I think I always changed a few cards as soon as I picked up a list and played with it for a while.
I am working on my rock deck. After paying attension to Red Duke's articles on channel fireball I think that I need to play both grim flayers and dark confidants. Duke seems quite adamant about it.
But I am running into a problem. What do I use as lifegain in the deck? Currently I am at 33 cards, in adition to the 23 lands, landing me on 4 open slots maindeck. I have no lifegain in the deck, something I think is to little. I would like to use the last 4 slots for lifegain. I am thinking 2 traverse, 1 scavenging ooze and 1 kitchen finks. Is that to little?
I have no treetopp village. My experience is the village is often to slow and have no big impact on the game. Is that other peoples experience as well? Vs tron and combo it is just to slow to activate.
Also, with the 2 traverse and the artifacts for delerium. How do people feel changing out one of the mirshra's baubles for a walking balista? I don't know if it has a place in the deck, but there are many situations where he is sweet once we hit 4 mana.
I think it's too little. I would go at with at least 2 Scooze, if not 3. It plays quite a few roles for this deck: finisher, lifegain, graveyard hate. The first one you play will eat a removal spell more often than not, so don't skimp on them.
Main-deck lifegain is handy to make use of Bitterblossom. BW tokens usually uses Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Vault of the Archangel in this role. These are not well-suited for the typical Junk build. I don't know if faeries runs lifegain or not, I haven't seen any in a minute.
I did try BB for a while in Obliterock. I didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling from it but I only played a few games with it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
As far as I know Faeries doesn't have lifegain. Its a tempo style of deck anyway, cards like Spellstutter Sprite indicate that.
I never understood why would abzan players wanna drop dark confidant. Abzan is the same deck as jund in regards to basic gameplan, spell cmc, etc. I dont understand why would grim flayers suddenly be better for abzan, since jund has ran Bobs since like ever with good proven results.
BB offers a pretty unique angle against the Colonnade decks and i do think we have to position ourselves aggressively in that matchup. Thrun is obviously a house but i find that sometimes we do not have the luxury of playing him with regen mana up and having him verdicted can be a real liability. BB is also a nice fit into the curve since turn 3 is about the time we start attacking their mana, and it is nice to have a resilient 2 drop that can apply pressure as we begin to LD them.
I do agree that i has been pretty polarizing and that is quite poor/slow in some matchups but i think there will always be those kinds of cases when playing a deck like BGx. However, BB is still a real, and importantly resilient threat and while there will be cases where it can be a liability, i think its worth trying and i would encourage others to try it if not just to acquire more data.
Also, BB was a suggestion for the field of ruin BG variant. Obviously in Abzan we would just play lingering souls.
Not in Junk, in Rock. It wouldn't make much sense in Junk as you noted.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
When he was on camera, we saw him lose to burn after making some controversial decisions (including not gaining life with CB), and I remember him losing 0-2 against Affinity. I also recall seeing some people in the chat mentionning that he was being carried by his team, but I have not followed closely enough.
He finished 13th, and there's another Rock deck in 15th.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
In the mirror you always cut discard and bring in removal/threats and grindy cards. Don't bring in NoSB when you want your Bob to stick in a certain matchup.
The obvious matchups are: Humans, Affinity, Elves, Mardu Pyromancer where you want NoSB. I personally would not bring it in for the CoCo matchups. It is a matchup where Bob really shines and we want him to stick. That also the reason I don't bring it in against Lingering Souls generally (except Mardu because it shuts down most of their threats)
MAINDECK [60]
Creature [13]
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Planeswalker [4]
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instant [8]
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
2x Path to Exile
Sorcery [12]
2x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Field of Ruin
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Stony Silence
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Damnation
1x Flaying Tendrils
2x Maelstrom Pulse
And
MAINDECK [60]
Creature [13]
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tireless Tracker
Planeswalker [4]
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instant [9]
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
2x Path to Exile
Sorcery [11]
3x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Blooming Marsh
3x Field of Ruin
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Fulminator Mage
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Damnation
2x Flaying Tendrils
Currently I’m playing around with this 2 very different build, but I just can’t make up my mind on which I want to stick to..
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I suggest, and I did it before, if you want to splash white, only do it for Souls. Or just play straight up Abzan.
Rock with Path doesn't work, you need too many white sources for it to run FoR.
I lost to a spirits tax deck, choked on mana by my own deck, not because he cut me off.
You guys were right, CB in the main as a 3 of is horrendous. Todd's a great player but I did not like his list when I jammed it on paper. It performed better on MTGO
Sigh. I can't seem to enjoy Rock outside of Jund and occasionally Junk.
So far I am having the best success with the list Butakov ran in the Modern MOCS - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/884887#online
The card choices fit my playstyle best i think. As someone else said there isnt really a set way to build the best deck but I think its what you are most comfortable with
I don't think you can go wrong playing his list though
I think Rock is strong, but we need to find the best configuration. I am experimenting with the numbers right now. I don't think that just copying a decklist from a pro (may it be Reid, Todd, Sol or any great pro player) will never be a perfect list in regards to your personal tastes/playstyle and in regards to meta concessions. I think I always changed a few cards as soon as I picked up a list and played with it for a while.
I am working on my rock deck. After paying attension to Red Duke's articles on channel fireball I think that I need to play both grim flayers and dark confidants. Duke seems quite adamant about it.
But I am running into a problem. What do I use as lifegain in the deck? Currently I am at 33 cards, in adition to the 23 lands, landing me on 4 open slots maindeck. I have no lifegain in the deck, something I think is to little. I would like to use the last 4 slots for lifegain. I am thinking 2 traverse, 1 scavenging ooze and 1 kitchen finks. Is that to little?
The decklist is bellow.
1 Hissing Quagmire
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
Spells (23)
2 Mishra's Bauble
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Go for the Throat
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I have no treetopp village. My experience is the village is often to slow and have no big impact on the game. Is that other peoples experience as well? Vs tron and combo it is just to slow to activate.
Also, with the 2 traverse and the artifacts for delerium. How do people feel changing out one of the mirshra's baubles for a walking balista? I don't know if it has a place in the deck, but there are many situations where he is sweet once we hit 4 mana.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Sometimes you see Collective Brutality in the main, which is also an option.
My tip: I would run less Grim Flayer and more Ooze. I would cut down to 2-3 Flayers and up to 2-3 Ooze.
Where do you stand in kitchen finks? I don't know what to think about it. It is very grindy. It comes with some lifegain.