Thank you for the answer! How would you play Fulminators effectively ? you cut their fourth land ?
No not necessarily. You just develop him and start attacking. If they finally point a removal spell at him, you can blow up a land (Celestial Colonnade is the best target) and then you trade 2-for-1.
If they happen to miss landdrops, you can also use him more aggressively to cut them off 4 mana, cryptic mana or just a colour.
Hey everyone, I've been playing BG/x decks since Invasion block was legal. I do like Abzan but find the deck to be lackluster against Burn and any deck that wants to take advantage of your life total. I've been on a list of Rock which I've been getting mentored by the one and only creator of rock himself Sol Malka. He's been showing me lines and sideboard decisions I never would have discovered ever. I think for one ghost quarter is amazing in many match ups versus tec edge which has a requirement and FoR which requires 2 mana to utilize it. Ghost Quarter can also be used to float mana and save a tracker or get a clue for value. I've even Ghost quartered my land in response to spreading seas.
In terms of the deck I think the key things which are big right now are:
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Kalitas(this card has exceeded my expectations)
8 discard spells
4 Abrupt decay(uncounterable clause is very relevant)
Less fatal push since more tron, big mana strategies
Some sort of mass removal main to deal with token armies or a gyro boards.
With the new set there's a few things I'm eager to experiment with. One of them is Vona's Hunger over one of my two pulses. I feel that if you flood out that card turns into a nasty one sided balance.
I do believe pre bannings that Rock is the best version of the deck to play. Partly because of its resilience to the metagame and how fair the deck is. I've gone 6-1-2 in my first major event with it. I drew because I was new to this variant and made some stupid decisions.
I am curious what people think is the answer to beating humans. I have been struggling with that matchup.
I am mostly concerned with rider and reflector. I think siding out discard and goyfs seems not ideal. I'm just not sure what hands are best to keep against humans.
Oh, no, I meant literally drop Goyf onto the battlefield
On the draw, I do something like -3 LOTV, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 LTLH, +3 CB, +1 boardwipe. If you have 2 boardwipes, cut a CB for the other boardwipe.
On the play -1 LOTV, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 LTLH, +2 CB
Something along those lines
For some reason people just cut out all their LOTVs and that's incorrect; they can't do anything about LOTV without a Mantis or dropping multiple things down at once.
Try to just keep the field clear and when it's obvious they're getting low on resources you play your creatures. You don't really want to race them. Playing your creature while holding a removal on turn 3 is also a good move.
Hm I've just realized, Tracker should be amazing against Control. Unless it gets countered, if you pair it with a fetchland, it basically trades 3-for-1. Seems good to me.
Whether or not we want to make the trade is a hard question with no obvious answer. Testing will have to show us the way. However, what I can say (based on my experiences yesterday) is that the grindy matchups need some help. In long grindy games, the current version of BG Rock has got to be one of the worst Thoughtseize/Liliana decks ever built. It has 8 discard spells, zero guaranteed two-for-ones like Souls or Huntmaster, and every single threat in the deck can be cleanly answered by both Fatal Push and Path to Exile. This is a very big problem against any midrange mirror and any control matchup. I don't know if this can be solved without splashing for Lingering Souls. Tireless Tracker is the current idea based on the popular decklists, but in my opinion it just isn't nearly as good. I know an unchecked Tracker just wins the game, but the floor is pretty low. When it gets killed on sight, the trade ends up being 3 mana + a clue for a Fatal Push or Bolt or Path. That is definitely not good enough. I think Grim Flayer can help a little bit with fighting token armies because it has trample, but I don't know what else can be done without dipping into white or red.
As for Field of Ruin versus control, it's good against Colonnade but that's about it. Actually, as I'm typing this, that comment makes me remember that 2 Tectonic Edge was extremely common in Jund back in ~2013-2014 when the metagame was dominated by Jund/Twin/UWR Control (i.e. Celestial Colonnade and Raging Ravine were serious concerns), and now that Colonnade is good again perhaps it's time to bring that idea back, but with an upgrade! Like you could play the following mana base in a conservative Abzan build (i.e. playing W just for Souls and maybe Stony Silence):
With the FoR present to help against Control. It obviously isn't as good as 4 FoR versus Tron, but it's something.
Did anyone test this approach so far?
I don't know if I should play BG Rock or Abzan right now. From the theory I love Field of Ruin right now more than Souls but you guys were talking about the very clunky manabase, which is probably due to the colorless mana.
Do we have any suggestion yet how to fuse both worlds?
I am actually kind of medium on Tracker. It is an "effective four-drop", so you get into situations occasionally where you feel that you can't cast it if you don't have the fourth land. When it gets removed immediately, it is very tempo negative even though you're technically up a card. 3 mana + 2 mana is a lot.
The obvious substitution is Grim Flayer, but in my testing it's been just okay.
@polymorpher I really can't confirm an allegedly clunky manabase in rock. I jammed a few games and its very smooth most of the time. And you also save a ton of life by leaving out the third colour. If thats your only concerning, then I personally can asure you, this is not the biggest weakness Rock has.
I think fusing both decks into one badly affects the overall consistancy. While I was able to build a manabase which is probably stable enough to run (posted it a few pages back) you can have times where you don't get to execute one specific thing in a impactful enough way. Its trying to do everything, and thus, specific things are being executed worse.
This is at least my thought process behind that. I might be wrong, and a hybrid is actually a good way to go, it just has to be tested I guess.
I am actually kind of medium on Tracker. It is an "effective four-drop", so you get into situations occasionally where you feel that you can't cast it if you don't have the fourth land. When it gets removed immediately, it is very tempo negative even though you're technically up a card. 3 mana + 2 mana is a lot.
The obvious substitution is Grim Flayer, but in my testing it's been just okay.
Tempo is a thing which is way less important in the control matchup than in others. Reid Duke just recently stated in his article that staying power is the most important quality in a control matchup. Efficiency matters less. And always, when I get to trade at least 2-for-1, I an totally happy. Even if it costs more mana. But the control deck also often has to waste mana, by holding up spells. I think its certainly worth it here. You just have to rethink the matchup. Its not about tempoing them out asap, its about trading resources in a profitable way. Tempo is not the quality we are looking for, although it obviously "feels" good.
Do you suggest having field of ruins is better right now than the 3-4 Lingering Souls?
Thats the point where I am not sure enough to tell. FoR really does seem appealing I have to say. But so does Souls.
For me, it ultimately boils down to how the control matchup fares with the Rock deck, since Souls is a such a liability in that matchup. If Rock can win a decent amount of times against Control, I am pretty certain FoR is just better right now. FoR helps us against Tron quite a bit.
Do you suggest having field of ruins is better right now than the 3-4 Lingering Souls?
Thats the point where I am not sure enough to tell. FoR really does seem appealing I have to say. But so does Souls.
For me, it ultimately boils down to how the control matchup fares with the Rock deck, since Souls is a such a liability in that matchup. If Rock can win a decent amount of times against Control, I am pretty certain FoR is just better right now. FoR helps us against Tron quite a bit.
Shouldn't the control match be good with Dark Confidant, Tracker, Liliana, and FoR main ...and Thrun, Fulminator side?
In addition, if people complain about the mana base ..do we really have to run 4 manlands?
Do you suggest having field of ruins is better right now than the 3-4 Lingering Souls?
Thats the point where I am not sure enough to tell. FoR really does seem appealing I have to say. But so does Souls.
For me, it ultimately boils down to how the control matchup fares with the Rock deck, since Souls is a such a liability in that matchup. If Rock can win a decent amount of times against Control, I am pretty certain FoR is just better right now. FoR helps us against Tron quite a bit.
Shouldn't the control match be good with Dark Confidant, Tracker, Liliana, and FoR main ...and Thrun, Fulminator side?
In addition, if people complain about the mana base ..do we really have to run 4 manlands?
Regular Jund could potentially run the same cards (except FoR) and is underdog against control. Don't know how impactful FoR is. However, between those cards you mentioned, we certainly can win.
You have to run 4 Quagmires to deal with the Grixis DS matchup. The lack of souls would change it into a bad matchup, but with those 4 extra removals the DS player gets into awkward situations where he/she can't really attack unless they have a Push or trade a fatty.
No not necessarily. You just develop him and start attacking. If they finally point a removal spell at him, you can blow up a land (Celestial Colonnade is the best target) and then you trade 2-for-1.
If they happen to miss landdrops, you can also use him more aggressively to cut them off 4 mana, cryptic mana or just a colour.
In terms of the deck I think the key things which are big right now are:
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Kalitas(this card has exceeded my expectations)
8 discard spells
4 Abrupt decay(uncounterable clause is very relevant)
Less fatal push since more tron, big mana strategies
Some sort of mass removal main to deal with token armies or a gyro boards.
With the new set there's a few things I'm eager to experiment with. One of them is Vona's Hunger over one of my two pulses. I feel that if you flood out that card turns into a nasty one sided balance.
I do believe pre bannings that Rock is the best version of the deck to play. Partly because of its resilience to the metagame and how fair the deck is. I've gone 6-1-2 in my first major event with it. I drew because I was new to this variant and made some stupid decisions.
I am curious what people think is the answer to beating humans. I have been struggling with that matchup.
Humans is mainly a point, click and shoot matchup. Drop Goyf.
It requires 2 mana to activate FoR, however, the net cost is still only 1 mana. I would give it a try over GQ, its really amazing.
For Humans the matchup is pretty straight forward, bring in any mass removal you have and board out low impact cards like TS and some LoTV.
On the draw, I do something like -3 LOTV, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 LTLH, +3 CB, +1 boardwipe. If you have 2 boardwipes, cut a CB for the other boardwipe.
On the play -1 LOTV, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 LTLH, +2 CB
Something along those lines
For some reason people just cut out all their LOTVs and that's incorrect; they can't do anything about LOTV without a Mantis or dropping multiple things down at once.
Try to just keep the field clear and when it's obvious they're getting low on resources you play your creatures. You don't really want to race them. Playing your creature while holding a removal on turn 3 is also a good move.
On the draw, I agree, I just keep her as a 1 of.
Obviously you want to play your Bobs first if you can cast a creature spell on a clear board.
Did anyone test this approach so far?
I don't know if I should play BG Rock or Abzan right now. From the theory I love Field of Ruin right now more than Souls but you guys were talking about the very clunky manabase, which is probably due to the colorless mana.
Do we have any suggestion yet how to fuse both worlds?
The obvious substitution is Grim Flayer, but in my testing it's been just okay.
I think fusing both decks into one badly affects the overall consistancy. While I was able to build a manabase which is probably stable enough to run (posted it a few pages back) you can have times where you don't get to execute one specific thing in a impactful enough way. Its trying to do everything, and thus, specific things are being executed worse.
This is at least my thought process behind that. I might be wrong, and a hybrid is actually a good way to go, it just has to be tested I guess.
Tempo is a thing which is way less important in the control matchup than in others. Reid Duke just recently stated in his article that staying power is the most important quality in a control matchup. Efficiency matters less. And always, when I get to trade at least 2-for-1, I an totally happy. Even if it costs more mana. But the control deck also often has to waste mana, by holding up spells. I think its certainly worth it here. You just have to rethink the matchup. Its not about tempoing them out asap, its about trading resources in a profitable way. Tempo is not the quality we are looking for, although it obviously "feels" good.
Thats the point where I am not sure enough to tell. FoR really does seem appealing I have to say. But so does Souls.
For me, it ultimately boils down to how the control matchup fares with the Rock deck, since Souls is a such a liability in that matchup. If Rock can win a decent amount of times against Control, I am pretty certain FoR is just better right now. FoR helps us against Tron quite a bit.
Shouldn't the control match be good with Dark Confidant, Tracker, Liliana, and FoR main ...and Thrun, Fulminator side?
In addition, if people complain about the mana base ..do we really have to run 4 manlands?
Regular Jund could potentially run the same cards (except FoR) and is underdog against control. Don't know how impactful FoR is. However, between those cards you mentioned, we certainly can win.
You have to run 4 Quagmires to deal with the Grixis DS matchup. The lack of souls would change it into a bad matchup, but with those 4 extra removals the DS player gets into awkward situations where he/she can't really attack unless they have a Push or trade a fatty.
Can we go:
-1 Thoughtseize (because 8 discard spells is a ton)
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
Therefore a mix of 2 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Grim Flayers to smoothen draws? Or is the BG that Grim Flayer demands too much for the deck?